Apple TV owners' thread. FAQ in first post - Page 759 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22741 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by AndreNewman View Post
So what is the quality like? The HBO streams were pretty thoroughly panned for poor quality also NowTV streams here in the UK so I've been holding off for Bluray but maybe the iTunes streams or download will be good.

Andre
In my case I haven't watched them yet. I imagine it would be the same as the version that streamed. I believe iTunes is just linking to the HBO streaming version.
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post #22742 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
The reasons for the poor quality - especially with the dark scenes in S8, E3 - were caused by two major factors:

1) The use of H.264 compression, which is a necessary evil in the world of 1080P streaming. Check out this article from Tech Crunch regarding GoT S8, E3, and the role H.264 played. It's very informative: https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/29/wh...s-the-science/

2) Tens of millions of viewers all watching the same feed at the same time - which overwhelmed HBO's servers, causing additional compression. I rewatched S8, E3 later in the week and found that the picture quality was improved.

However, the biggest contributor was easily H.264 compression and how it handles (or doesn't) dark scenes.

The good news is that when (if) these shows become available in 4K/HDR, they will also move from H.264 to H.265 - which is a much more efficient codec. Hopefully they will be available in Dolby Vision - as that will eliminate any banding.
True enough both points, I work in TV Engineering so I'm with you on this stuff.

1) The change to 12 bits and the HDR EOTF curve are the biggest benefits to darker scenes, there is some benefit in H265 when severely overcompressed but hey would be nice if they didn't do that quite so much, H264 can look very good if they want it to.

2) I did look at a short dark scene in Ep1, to help someone at a customer get their TV black level correct. Wow was that over over over compressed, it was the HBO stream and it was days after the premier.

I will certainly buy this on Bluray or UHD Bluray if (it will be when) they release it but I expect they have a bunch of second and third tier broadcaster and streaming providers worldwide to milk before that happens.

I don't really care about Dolby Vision, only have a projector at home and I really don't like the control over production process politics behind Dolby Vision.

I'm just hoping that Apple have slightly better standards than HBO have demonstrated and it not just the same stream re-sold.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a re-graded version of the truly dark night scenes around by now, all very well applying extreme cinematic techniques to a TV series but if everyone insists on streaming it and watching on phones and tablets in unsuitable environments they really ought to produce something suitable for the market.
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post #22743 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post
In my case I haven't watched them yet. I imagine it would be the same as the version that streamed. I believe iTunes is just linking to the HBO streaming version.
I hope it's not just a re sell, please update when you've watched some of it.

I may buy the first episode just to see if it's ok.
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post #22744 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by AndreNewman View Post
True enough both points, I work in TV Engineering so I'm with you on this stuff.

1) The change to 12 bits and the HDR EOTF curve are the biggest benefits to darker scenes, there is some benefit in H265 when severely overcompressed but hey would be nice if they didn't do that quite so much, H264 can look very good if they want it to.
Oops sorry, 10 bit for distribution, the 12 and sometimes 14 even 16 bit are in contribution or capture.

It's highly likely there's a 14 bit master of these truly dark scenes that someone can pull a "for television" grade out of.
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post #22745 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post
In my case I haven't watched them yet. I imagine it would be the same as the version that streamed. I believe iTunes is just linking to the HBO streaming version.
No. If you're *buying* TV shows from Apple/iTunes, then the video file that you stream/download from Apple will have been encoded by Apple. It will not be the same video file that was encoded by HBO and streamed from their servers through the HBO Go and HBO Now apps. You can expect the Apple version to look better.

I don't know but my guess is that, for series from HBO, Showtime, etc., you will get the same stream from Apple on your Apple TV whether you purchase the content from Apple or just subscribe to the relevant service through Apple TV Channels. Maybe someone can eventually confirm this.
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post #22746 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mrpickem View Post
Mildly infuriating...

At times for no reason while watch mlb.tv app thru ATV it just exits out of stream to Apple home screen. Usually happens at least once per session if I watch more than an hour or so...roughly.

Is this a common problem and can I do anything to minimize?
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I have the same issue. It is really frustrating. It doesn't happen with any other streamer I have (Roku) and (Nvida Shield TV) just the Apple TV.
Yep, same here, and it's a recent development, maybe within the last couple of weeks(?)
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post #22747 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 12:47 PM
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Yep, same here, and it's a recent development, maybe within the last couple of weeks(?)

Yes now that you mention it, it has only been happening the last couple weeks. Just watched whole Yankee game and it never dropped, so it's quite random.
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post #22748 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mrpickem View Post
Yes now that you mention it, it has only been happening the last couple weeks. Just watched whole Yankee game and it never dropped, so it's quite random.
Same here for me...I wish they would get it fixed. I like being able to watch two games or quickly switch between the two.
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post #22749 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by talldrink67 View Post
Watched John Wick Chapter 2 last night on the 12.4 beta. The issue is still there

I have an LG OLED C6
By any chance are you using an active/directional HDMI cable and/or putting the video signal through an AVR with image processing enabled?
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post #22750 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mrpickem View Post
Yes now that you mention it, it has only been happening the last couple weeks. Just watched whole Yankee game and it never dropped, so it's quite random.
Yeah, I'll walk out of the room during a commercial break, come back and it's on the ATV home screen, annoying.
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post #22751 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 01:26 PM
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Hm, I don't think this falls under the pulsating issue but maybe.

I was watching Game of Thrones S1 E4 in 4K HDR via Infuse. It looks beautiful, however, I noticed on this one seen, one scene, my screen dims dramatically, then pops right back up. I'm assuming its a delay in the local dimming system.

I know this is a terrible recording, but right when the screen moves to Jaime Lannister, it dims really low, I know in the video it doesn't seem too dim but when you are watching it's very apparent. This is the only time I see it fluctuating besides the credits.

If you look to the left of Jaime's head, you can see the background get dimmer.

[/QUOTE]

Not sure if this has anything do with the ATV4K, leaning more towards Local Dimming System is just a little lagged from the bright scene to dark scene so quickly.
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post #22752 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 02:05 PM
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I’ve been having the exact same problem with the MLB app over the last two or three weeks using ATV4K. No issue at all using Roku or the Sony android app.
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post #22753 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 04:14 PM
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Has anything definitive been found re which Make/Model AVRs work well with the ATV4K re audio sync, DV pass thru, etc.?

The HDMI ports/chips on my current unit, a Denon AVR-1713 (pre Atmos, 4K, HDR) are dying so it's time for a new AVR. Will be mostly using with an ATV4K and a 2016 LG OLED (E6P).

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post #22754 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post
Has anything definitive been found re which Make/Model AVRs work well with the ATV4K re audio sync, DV pass thru, etc.?



The HDMI ports/chips on my current unit, a Denon AVR-1713 (pre Atmos, 4K, HDR) are dying so it's time for a new AVR. Will be mostly using with an ATV4K and a 2016 LG OLED (E6P).



Much thanks.
Video Delay is introduced by the display. All the AVR can do is artificially add audio delay. The issue comes when different display formats (DV vs Non-DV) have significant video delay differences. This leaves the user finding a happy-medium audio delay between the two to set in the AVR or switching between two values manually. Yamaha makes this switch a little easier by allowing one to create “Scenes” that can be switched between.
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post #22755 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by R8ders2K View Post
Hmmm, maybe that's why I don't see any flicker on mine. As I have mine set for 4K 60 SDR with Matching ON for both. But then, I thought that this was the preferred setting...(?).
No flickering on my Sony 940E either and I have my ATV4K settings the same and it definitely goes into DV mode. I had just watched John Wick earlier in the week and didn't notice anything so I checked again tonight and it played flawlessly.
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post #22756 of 24953 Old 05-23-2019, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TrendSetterX View Post
Video Delay is introduced by the display. All the AVR can do is artificially add audio delay. The issue comes when different display formats (DV vs Non-DV) have significant video delay differences. This leaves the user finding a happy-medium audio delay between the two to set in the AVR or switching between two values manually. Yamaha makes this switch a little easier by allowing one to create “Scenes” that can be switched between.
Can Video Delay also be introduced by the AVR? I was wondering if there are some AVR's with a true "pass-thru" for the video/picture (i.e. no processing at all).

Part of the reason for my questions is that when I hook up my ATV directly to the TV I get no variable audio sync problems when viewing different video formats - HD, UHD, HDR10, HDR-DV, etc. This is what makes me wonder if the AVR is also delaying the video, especially variable delays based on the video format. (Of course the ATV-to-TV-direct is not a good solution long term because I don't want to listen to TV speakers, and ARC back to the receiver has too many audio compromises, including no Atmos. I haven't even bothered to test ARC for that reason.)

I have figured out that a couple of settings on my TV have a noticeable effect on whether the video delay is consistent vs variable.
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post #22757 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post
Can Video Delay also be introduced by the AVR? I was wondering if there are some AVR's with a true "pass-thru" for the video/picture (i.e. no processing at all).

Part of the reason for my questions is that when I hook up my ATV directly to the TV I get no variable audio sync problems when viewing different video formats - HD, UHD, HDR10, HDR-DV, etc. This is what makes me wonder if the AVR is also delaying the video, especially variable delays based on the video format. (Of course the ATV-to-TV-direct is not a good solution long term because I don't want to listen to TV speakers, and ARC back to the receiver has too many audio compromises, including no Atmos. I haven't even bothered to test ARC for that reason.)

I have figured out that a couple of settings on my TV have a noticeable effect on whether the video delay is consistent vs variable.
I have yet to see an AVR induce enough delay to cause an AV sync issue and yet to see an AVR that has video processing that cannot be defeated.

When you run the Apple TV straight to the TV the TV is compensating for it's own lag and syncing the audio.

In short your TV is causing the delay.
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post #22758 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post
Has anything definitive been found re which Make/Model AVRs work well with the ATV4K re audio sync, DV pass thru, etc.?

The HDMI ports/chips on my current unit, a Denon AVR-1713 (pre Atmos, 4K, HDR) are dying so it's time for a new AVR. Will be mostly using with an ATV4K and a 2016 LG OLED (E6P).

Much thanks.
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Originally Posted by TrendSetterX View Post
Video Delay is introduced by the display. All the AVR can do is artificially add audio delay. The issue comes when different display formats (DV vs Non-DV) have significant video delay differences. This leaves the user finding a happy-medium audio delay between the two to set in the AVR or switching between two values manually. Yamaha makes this switch a little easier by allowing one to create “Scenes” that can be switched between.

For whatever reason and FWIW, I have an ATV4K, an NVidia Shield, and an OPPO UDP-203 all hooked up to the same 4K HDR TV (Sony 940E), and of those three, only the ATV4K causes me lip-sync issues where I have to go in and readjust (weekly if not daily) the lip-sync delay on my AVR (Denon x4400h). The Shield and OPPO both have their own lip-sync adjustment configurations internal to the box, and I can't explain to you the 1's and 0's of how that works but what I can tell you is that as I flip from app to app and content-to-content, day after day, the lip-sync timing never shifts/adjusts/moves and I never have to tweak it on either of those sources. But on the ATV4k, which doesn't (that I know of?) have any internal lip-sync timing built-in and I can only correct/adjust via the specific input to my AVR combined with my AVR's settings, I have to tweak that delay via my AVR fairly regularly... TIFWIW.
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post #22759 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 09:26 AM
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And my own Denon AVR-X7200WA has an audio delay but it's at 0ms and I have no issues with lipsync on my ATV4K or Pana DMP-UB900 or Sony BD or Toshiba HD-DVD, all of which are switched by the Denon into a Sony projector. The Denon doesn't do any meddling with the video AFAICT with the exception that it injects its INFO into the video when I select that on the remote.

So it's a mystery to me why some have ATV lipsync anomalies unless it has something to do with cabling? FWIW.
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post #22760 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 09:28 AM
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I have no issues with my Pioneer. It has auto audio sync. I turn off the audio sync on my Sony because I messes up the audio sync with both enabled.

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post #22761 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrendSetterX View Post
Video Delay is introduced by the display. All the AVR can do is artificially add audio delay. The issue comes when different display formats (DV vs Non-DV) have significant video delay differences. This leaves the user finding a happy-medium audio delay between the two to set in the AVR or switching between two values manually. Yamaha makes this switch a little easier by allowing one to create “Scenes” that can be switched between.
Could you elaborate more on Yahama scenes? I've been looking for years for an AVR that supports one-button presets to change the a/v sync. I would love to set up presets for a/v for 0, 40, 80, 120, etc. Can Yamaha really do this? Yes, I know this is off-topic, but a google search didn't reveal anything.
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post #22762 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post
Has anything definitive been found re which Make/Model AVRs work well with the ATV4K
No. That task would impossible. Any modern AVR spec'd for 4K/DoVi should work. Buy one with a good return policy if you're concerned.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #22763 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Could you elaborate more on Yahama scenes? I've been looking for years for an AVR that supports one-button presets to change the a/v sync.
I believe Denon Quick Select settings store all current attributes but this would only solve the sync issue for one or two inputs.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #22764 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Rybo View Post
With the tvOS 12.3 public release, I’m still getting occasional frame skipping with Apple TV Channels HBO shows on my Apple TV 4K/TCL 55p605. Can someone do that special thing, where you can see the frame rate of any video being streamed and check if Apple TV Channel HBO scripted shows (e.g. Barry, Game of Thrones, etc.) are encoded at 23.976fps or 24.000fps?
Sorry for the delay... Hopefully, this is what you're looking for. It's the beginning of GoT S8E1 from HBO GO via my Apple TV 4K/Sony XBR-75X940E/Onkyo TX-NR777.
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post #22765 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
I believe Denon Quick Select settings store all current attributes but this would only solve the sync issue for one or two inputs.
Dunno about all Denons, but mine saves the audio delay setting for each input source separately.
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post #22766 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 04:17 PM
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OMG, I always forget how bad the Plex forums are until I go there looking for info. The worst format.

Anyway, to any ATV4K and Plex user, did the latest Plex update allow conversion of lossless audio to PCM lossless as Infuse does?
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post #22767 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
... When you run the Apple TV straight to the TV the TV is compensating for it's own lag and syncing the audio...
I'm missing something ... If the TV can compensate for it's own lag when plugged directly to the ATV then why can't it also compensate when it connected to the AVR?

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post #22768 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
I have ... yet to see an AVR that has video processing that cannot be defeated...
I'm hoping what you're saying is true for most/all current AVRs! When looking at new AVRs to purchase, would the feature I'm looking for simply be called "pass-through"?

With my current AVR, an older Denon 1713 that I'm replacing, the video processing cannot be "defeated" per conversations with Denon tech support. Their only advice was that HDMI "in" ports physically closest to the HDMI "out" ports would have the most secure/consistent "timing". Unfortunately at the time I did not think to ask them about current Denon AVR models ...

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Last edited by sdg4vfx; 05-24-2019 at 08:22 PM.
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post #22769 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 07:59 PM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

A question regarding Dolby Vision and color depth.

I’m aware that 4K UHD Blu-rays which have HDR10 supports WCG (Wide Color Gamut) which is 10-bit color depth.

- 4K UHD Blu-ray uses Dolby Vision Profile 7. (dual layer = main HDR10 layer + DV enhancement layer)

- Streaming services such as Apple’s iTunes and Netflix use Dolby Vision Profile 5 (single layer)

From my searching, it seems that 12-bit color is used at filming/editing/mastering stage in the studio for DV.
However, it looks like they encode into 10-bit HEVC for 4K blu-ray discs and streaming services. This part isn’t clear.

My questions are:
1. Are DV enhanced titles on iTunes and Netflix encoded in 10-bit or 12-bit color depth?
(I think it's 10-bit but anyone can confirm?)

2. What's the case with 4K UHD Blu-ray titles with DV enhancement layer (Profile 7). Are these also based on 10-bit HEVC or perhaps, DV enhancement layer provides 12-bit color depth for UHD Blu-ray titles?
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post #22770 of 24953 Old 05-24-2019, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserfan View Post
Dunno about all Denons, but mine saves the audio delay setting for each input source separately.
That’s fine as long as the delay is consistent for a given input. For many, it’s not - switching between DV content and non-DV content on the same input can have drastically different video delay amounts needing different audio delay settings. The Yamaha Aventage scenes allow you to have multiple “one touch” settings switches for the same input.

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