Apple TV owners' thread. FAQ in first post - Page 782 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23431 of 26060 Old 06-25-2019, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
"Or they don't care because it's not their target demographic."
I predict Apple will support 24.0 right after they re-enable bitstream pass-through.

I encourage people that expected Match Frame Rate to mean 24.0 content would be sent as 24.0 (or that Apple would finally re-enable pass-through) to return their Apple TV to the place of purchase.

If only we had some sort of Authority that established Advertising Standards to force Apple to change their scandalous advertising ways.


And request refunds for all the titles Apple sold them via the iTunes Store that essentially don’t work on the device Apple created and sold?


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post #23432 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by pixelknave View Post
All Apple film-sourced content is encoded at 23.976fps (you can see this is you download one of your iTunes movies and play it back in QuickTime Player). The iTunes-downloadable version happens to be the same version you'll buffer if you turn off QuickStart in Apple TV's settings…but you shouldn't do that.
You may have seen further up that it took me a whole 2 minutes to find a title which disagrees with your statement that all Apple film sourced content is encoded at 23.976p. I simply google'd bluray discs that happened to be 24.0p and looked for those titles on Itunes. The first one I searched for proved to be 24.0p in the Itunes library: Highlander (30th Anniversary Edition) (1986). See this from the download version; also shows in the developer HUD as nominal 24.00fps with Quickstart off. As mentioned it isn't possible it seems (I might check the console logs later) to know the framerate of the quickstart-enabled streams as the HUD doesn't report it and there isn't any easy way to extract the segments.


This does raise the question again of what exactly is going on with Prisoners though, as that non-quickstart file is reported as 23.98fps. Either the quickstart files are 24fps and we can't get that info, or they're not and there is something else going on with them. The only reason I could see them being network related glitches in that title (given the low bit rate) would be if only the 4k content is being pushed out to local content delivery networks, and the 1080p low bandwidth stuff actually has a more treacherous network route. Maybe sniffing the network would give a clue as to where these files are being delivered from.

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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
I encourage people that expected Match Frame Rate to mean 24.0 content would be sent as 24.0 (or that Apple would finally re-enable pass-through) to return their Apple TV to the place of purchase.
I don't think passthrough has anything to do with this, and is a red herring (perhaps just a distraction to type words while avoiding the valid points raised). It is quite legitimate to not have features, and those features are known at time of purchase, but features you do have should work correctly. The whole point of framerate matching is to provide correct cadence on screen for content to the streamed source, which simply doesn't work every 42s for this content.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
And request refunds for all the titles Apple sold them via the iTunes Store that essentially don’t work on the device Apple created and sold?
I think the subtext from @bodosom was probably "as that would stop those people complaining here"...

For what it is worth, I am going to go through the process now with Highlander (it's certainly not worth £6 of my money for the purpose of just running a test!).
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post #23433 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 12:55 AM
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Thanks for your efforts with this. And I agree entirely with everything in your response. I’m wondering if it’s worth reaching out to John Archer with this. A bit of focus from the press has worked in the past and he’s seemed interested in this kind of thing.


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post #23434 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 02:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
And request refunds for all the titles Apple sold them via the iTunes Store that essentially don’t work on the device Apple created and sold?

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I've been told by Apple that I've requested too many refunds in the past that they will no longer grant me any. I checked in the last 90 days and I've only requested refunds at the rate of 4% in dollars and 11% in quantity which I think is small. I don't know what criteria they use. Now they say their policy is "All sales are final".

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post #23435 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
I've been told by Apple that I've requested too many refunds in the past that they will no longer grant me any. I checked in the last 90 days and I've only requested refunds at the rate of 4% in dollars and 11% in quantity which I think is small. I don't know what criteria they use. Now they say their policy is "All sales are final".
Well, I've reported both Highlander and Prisoners. I don't plan on making a habit of purchasing items from Itunes to make a point - I usually use other services. This was just for the purpose of debunking these issues as Netflix or Amazon specific - it is clear there are issues within Amazon's own library.

---

Is anyone aware of recent release, mainstream true 24p 4K content in the Itunes library?
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post #23436 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Netflix also require all original content and licensed content to be delivered in the native framerate it was shot or edited in ( http://https://partnerhelp.netflixst...ns-v3-2-1 , http://https://partnerhelp.netflixst...ification-v8-1 ) . If they were to convert 24p native content to 23.976p they would have to unpack all the 48k surround and stereo sound mixes, fractionally sample rate convert and pitch correct them (never a particularly good idea) and then re-encode them to the various surround formats. Or if they had the raw discrete channels, just do the fractional sample rate conversion / pitch correction and the re-packing.
I'm pretty sure no one pitch corrects for the 1/1000 slowdown from 24 to 23.976. It's totally unnecessary.

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post #23437 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jong1 View Post
I'm pretty sure no one pitch corrects for the 1/1000 slowdown from 24 to 23.976. It's totally unnecessary.
Perhaps not (I don't work in video post), though they obviously do need to time stretch (effectively sample rate convert it) to match the reduced duration as the audio stream has to be 48k regardless of the framerate being 23.976 or 24p.
A quick google does show that tools like Adobe Audition combine the time stretch and pitch shift. Resolve by default has the option for pitch correct enabled it seems. So while it might be strictly speaking unnecessary I think you can probably bet good money it is happening in some cases.

Regardless, there are very good reasons to not want to do either of these operations though to such a very close ratio, and the SRC is unnavoidable unless you want terrible lip sync by the end of a 24p->23.976p converted title.
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post #23438 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Well, I've reported both Highlander and Prisoners. I don't plan on making a habit of purchasing items from Itunes to make a point - I usually use other services. This was just for the purpose of debunking these issues as Netflix or Amazon specific - it is clear there are issues within Amazon's own library.

---

Is anyone aware of recent release, mainstream true 24p 4K content in the Itunes library?

I have received refunds on 4 films for this reason - The Queen, Babette’s Feast, Local Hero, An Education. I believe all four are European (3 UK & 1 Denmark). This has put me off buying any European distributed films from iTunes. These are not mainstream films or 4k but very irritating none the less. It might be useful to have a separate thread listing all affected films so they can be avoided. When I spoke to technical support at Apple a few months ago they did not know anything about the 24 vs 23.976 issues - Just sounded like they were speaking from a script (basically a complete waste of time).

I have also noticed the same issue on Netflix- Crooked House film played via ATV - the same film played via LG TV App plays fine with no skipped frames. So clearly a problem with ATV for me.
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post #23439 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post

I don't think passthrough has anything to do with this, and is a red herring (perhaps just a distraction to type words while avoiding the valid points raised).
Or it was ironic humor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
It is quite legitimate to not have features, and those features are known at time of purchase, but features you do have should work correctly. The whole point of framerate matching is to provide correct cadence on screen for content to the streamed source.
You appear to be elevating your opinions to facts. Here's an obvious alternative to your opinion: Match Rate simply automates selecting the closest frame rate from the set of choices available in the video format menu i.e. it's a UX accommodation. It works if the app doesn't ignore Match settings.

I imagine everyone that has an opinion about this agrees that it would be good if Apple resolved input/output rate matching.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #23440 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
I imagine everyone that has an opinion about this agrees that it would be good if Apple resolved input/output rate matching.
Yes, and those of us who don't care about this issue would love also to see the end of posts about it here!
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post #23441 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 07:54 AM
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As many others i have had problems with sync issues with my Apple TV 4K, Denon AVR and LG 55C7.
I have been trying all sorts of things, but have kinda decided that it is enough for now. After manually adjusting the reciver im kinda satisfied at the moment.

For a while i tought that my audio sync issues disappeared when the apple tv was outputting 50hz and dynamic range set to ON (yes i know that content dosent "play" right when the Apple TV is outputting 50hz).

But then i noticed that HDR-movies did not "pop" in 50hz.

If i set the Apple TV to: (see pictures)
4K 60hz - dynamige range ON - the HDR work (picture 1)
4K 50hz - dynamic range ON - the HDR dont work. (picture 2)
Match framerate ON - Dynamic range ON - The HDR works. (picture 3)

The movie is Mad Max: Fury Road in HDR and played with Infuse.

I do find this very odd, why does HDR seem to work in 60hz and not 50hz?
Sorry if the pictures are added to the post in a wrong way (first time posting pictures).
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post #23442 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 08:29 AM
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I think we’ve had enough talk about the 24hz topic. Nothing will change and no new information is being presented of import.

If you don’t like the current handling then please take it up with Apple. No one on this forum can help you further and only Apple can address your concerns.
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post #23443 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 08:33 AM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlinskogge View Post
But then i noticed that HDR-movies did not "pop" in 50hz.

....

I do find this very odd, why does HDR seem to work in 60hz and not 50hz?


You: Doctor it hurts when I turn my head.
Doctor: Don’t turn your head.

Me: Don’t use 50hz.

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post #23444 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rsonnens View Post
You: Doctor it hurts when I turn my head.
Doctor: Don’t turn your head.

Me: Don’t use 50hz.


Seriously. You should take the AVR out of the chain and test again. You want to narrow down the problem and eliminating devices is a good place to start.

Also make sure that when you are manually changing settings on the ATV that the gamma settings and other manual settings are the same.

Also check if it’s only with infuse or with other material from Apple or Netflix. Also HDR is a broad term. Is is HDR10 or DV?

If it is specific to infuse you should probably visit an Infuse forum.
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post #23445 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rsonnens View Post
I think we’ve had enough talk about the 24hz topic. Nothing will change and no new information is being presented of import.

If you don’t like the current handling then please take it up with Apple. No one on this forum can help you further and only Apple can address your concerns.
I disagree a little. Sure, there has been some going over of "old wounds". But we've also definitively debunked the stated opinion that this doesn't affect content in Apple's own library as that is all 23.976 (it isn't, see several examples, one I've confirmed is Highlander), and we've also discovered that if you disable quick start you can see the source framerate of the movie in the developer HUD (at least for the bandwidth limited 1080p version) which should give a very good indication of whether the glitches you're seeing are due to the framerate mismatch or not. Those two things should help folk figure out why their content is glitching on their shiny black box. Some info around the frame rate matching limitations and their effect might do well to make it into the FAQ.
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post #23446 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 10:55 AM
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I believe that there is another "thread" here on the forum that discusses the 24p problem.. As mentioned above this has been beaten to death and is what it is at this point and time. Please take any further discussions over there- Thank You...
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post #23447 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 10:58 AM
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I believe that there is another "thread" here on the forum that discusses the 24p problem.. As mentioned above this has been beaten to death and is what it is at this point and time. Please take any further discussions over there- Thank You...
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Yes, and you can find that thread here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...000-video.html

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post #23448 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 10:59 AM
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Yes, and those of us who don't care about this issue would love also to see the end of posts about it here!


So glad someone else said this. Thank you!!!!


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post #23449 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I disagree a little. Sure, there has been some going over of "old wounds". But we've also definitively debunked the stated opinion that this doesn't affect content in Apple's own library as that is all 23.976 (it isn't, see several examples, one I've confirmed is Highlander), and we've also discovered that if you disable quick start you can see the source framerate of the movie in the developer HUD (at least for the bandwidth limited 1080p version) which should give a very good indication of whether the glitches you're seeing are due to the framerate mismatch or not. Those two things should help folk figure out why their content is glitching on their shiny black box. Some info around the frame rate matching limitations and their effect might do well to make it into the FAQ.


Suggest another dedicated thread would work better for you than here. It would attract those that are interested.


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post #23450 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I disagree a little. Sure, there has been some going over of "old wounds". But we've also definitively debunked the stated opinion that this doesn't affect content in Apple's own library as that is all 23.976 (it isn't, see several examples, one I've confirmed is Highlander), and we've also discovered that if you disable quick start you can see the source framerate of the movie in the developer HUD (at least for the bandwidth limited 1080p version) which should give a very good indication of whether the glitches you're seeing are due to the framerate mismatch or not. Those two things should help folk figure out why their content is glitching on their shiny black box. Some info around the frame rate matching limitations and their effect might do well to make it into the FAQ.
To be fair I found these posts very interesting and useful. This is an Apple TV forum after all and is an genuine issue. There is a lot of stuff on these forums that don’t interest me but I just ignore them. I guess that is the nature of most forums they cover a wide range.
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post #23451 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 01:48 PM
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Having a frustrating issue with the Apple TV and the MLB app. When I start the app up, it always hides the scores. I go into setting, turn that off, and the next time i start the app, it hides the scores, and defaults back to hiding the scores in the settings. Does this on both my AppleTV 4K and my other Apple TV. Never use to do this. Started just a few weeks ago. Really annoying.
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post #23452 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 01:59 PM
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Having a frustrating issue with the Apple TV and the MLB app. When I start the app up, it always hides the scores. I go into setting, turn that off, and the next time i start the app, it hides the scores, and defaults back to hiding the scores in the settings. Does this on both my AppleTV 4K and my other Apple TV. Never use to do this. Started just a few weeks ago. Really annoying.
I've been seeing the same thing with the MLB app on an AppleTV (not 4K) - it's very frustrating.
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post #23453 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Having a frustrating issue with the Apple TV and the MLB app. When I start the app up, it always hides the scores. I go into setting, turn that off, and the next time i start the app, it hides the scores, and defaults back to hiding the scores in the settings. Does this on both my AppleTV 4K and my other Apple TV. Never use to do this. Started just a few weeks ago. Really annoying.
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I've been seeing the same thing with the MLB app on an AppleTV (not 4K) - it's very frustrating.
Yup, same here. It's been happening for around 2-3 weeks.
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post #23454 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 03:37 PM
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Since upgrading to tvOS 13 I've had an issue with my Harmony Elite. I'm using the 'Harmony Beta' \ 'Test Apple TV' profile in My Harmony. Previously I could wake my ATV from sleep by pressing any key on my Harmony. This no longer works. The only button that works is 'Reboot'. All other functions works fine - just the wake from sleep. Currently using the ATV remote to wake it up and the Harmony for everything else.

Anyone else with an Elite seen this?

EDIT: Confirmation form AVforums where another Elite user has same issue.

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post #23455 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
To be fair I found these posts very interesting and useful. This is an Apple TV forum after all and is an genuine issue. There is a lot of stuff on these forums that don’t interest me but I just ignore them. I guess that is the nature of most forums they cover a wide range.
Then track the 24p problem over in the other thread...

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post #23456 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 11:18 PM
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You may have seen further up that it took me a whole 2 minutes to find a title which disagrees with your statement that all Apple film sourced content is encoded at 23.976p.
Well, I stand corrected…I guess my pipeline knowledge is studio-specific.

But I think my point still stands…the glitch you're seeing with "Prisoners" isn't due to a 23.976 vs. 24 mismatch. While admittedly not all iTunes content is encoded at 23.976, I would be surprised if the non-QuickStart (buffered) version and the QuickStart (HLS) version of the same film are encoded with different frame rates, as they're derived from the same studio master. But if the buffered versions of both Highlander (24) and Prisoners (23.976) play back fine on the Apple TV, we know it's not a symptom of how Apple TV handles 24fps.

So there's something else about the HLS version of Prisoners that's glitching…I doubt it's the CDN, and I agree that its less likely to be a local network issue if you have the bandwidth for full 4K streaming (which I assume you've verified with the HUD). That leaves us with an encoding error of some sort, so it's good you've reported it.
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post #23457 of 26060 Old 06-26-2019, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
For what it is worth Quickstart is an option that I believe only Apple sourced content takes advantage of, so I don't think it is implicated in anything other than Itunes downloads.
QuickStart just enables HLS streaming (vs. buffering), which Netflix, Amazon, etc. use for content delivery…the non-QuickStart version is actually the unique beast.
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Last edited by pixelknave; 06-26-2019 at 11:36 PM.
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post #23458 of 26060 Old 06-27-2019, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelknave View Post
Well, I stand corrected…I guess my pipeline knowledge is studio-specific.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelknave View Post
But I think my point still stands…the glitch you're seeing with "Prisoners" isn't due to a 23.976 vs. 24 mismatch.
I don't think it is possible to say this definitively, but...

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Originally Posted by pixelknave View Post
While admittedly not all iTunes content is encoded at 23.976, I would be surprised if the non-QuickStart (buffered) version and the QuickStart (HLS) version of the same film are encoded with different frame rates, as they're derived from the same studio master.
I agree that it is unlikely, but possible. We just can't tell at the moment.

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But if the buffered versions of both Highlander (24) and Prisoners (23.976) play back fine on the Apple TV, we know it's not a symptom of how Apple TV handles 24fps.
They do not both. The Highlander version drops frames as expected for 24.00p source material, it is definitely the "typical" 24p vs 23.976p issue.

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Originally Posted by pixelknave View Post
So there's something else about the HLS version of Prisoners that's glitching…I doubt it's the CDN, and I agree that its less likely to be a local network issue if you have the bandwidth for full 4K streaming (which I assume you've verified with the HUD). That leaves us with an encoding error of some sort, so it's good you've reported it.
There are other possibilities. Could be some kind of decoder bug in some corner case of encoder parameters, or some other playback stack issue where the short (I think around 6s) HLS clips are stitched together. When I get a moment I'm going to try trawling the Xcode console logs for playback to see if there are any clues as to what is going on, or the format of the currently played stream.

---

The above is part of the reason the discussion here should carry on in my view; there is at least one and possibly 2 issues here, it is worth pursuing this to the point that there is no more info to glean from the titles that play back glitch free with Quickstart off vs glitching with On (which I'm really not sure is going to be the traditional issue of 23.976 vs 24p). Much of the discussion of 23.976 vs 24p has been due to correcting misinformation or misunderstanding of the issue(s) , which is still rife.
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Last edited by bobof; 06-27-2019 at 01:17 AM.
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post #23459 of 26060 Old 06-27-2019, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelknave View Post
QuickStart just enables HLS streaming (vs. buffering), which Netflix, Amazon, etc. use for content delivery…the non-QuickStart version is actually the unique beast.
I think there are other differences which are perhaps worth looking into; when you have quickstart enabled I recall the HUD information for video has some other differences in the codec section between Itunes content and Netflix content. So if they are all HLS, they're not necessarily all the same things packed up inside HLS, and therein might lie some of the differences seen.
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post #23460 of 26060 Old 06-27-2019, 07:14 AM
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Hi,

This is more of an iTunes question than an ATV question but .... How does one decide which version to buy if iTunes has a movie from 2 different studios ?

I was looking at "deals" and see a movie that could be interesting - The Black Cat is offered from 2 different studios. The price is same as rental and both versions are unrated. I'm kind of a Mimsy Farmer fan (from the Pink Floyd related movie More) and this movie is cheap enough to get just to check it out but .... How do I know which version is more likely to remain available ? ...

In general if. movie is on iTunes from 2 studios how does one figure out which is safer to buy or ... which is a newer remaster? .. I guess there's no simple solution....

-Edit - My guess is the best plan is look into the blu ray releases of these (on Blu Ray dot com for example) for info as to if one version is newer.


-Brian

Last edited by Brian Hampton; 06-27-2019 at 07:22 AM.
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