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post #28471 of 28649 Old 02-13-2020, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Scottt1174 View Post
Try this. Any better?
Better, but still not sure what I am looking at. I would suggest looking at that same scene directly thru the AppleTV App on your TCL TV's Roku and see if it looks the same. If it does look the same, you need to adjust your DV settings on the TCL. Good luck.
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post #28472 of 28649 Old 02-13-2020, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottt1174 View Post
Try this. Any better?
Better, but still not sure what I am looking at. I would suggest looking at that same scene directly thru the AppleTV App on your TCL TV's Roku and see if it looks the same. If it does look the same, you need to adjust your DV settings on the TCL. Good luck.
Let me try another scene. It happened on Terminator Dark Fate dark scenes. It's like there is a Halo effect. Tough to explain. I will post back. I don't think it's my DV settings on the TV. I will also try the Roku internals to see if I get the same thing.
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post #28473 of 28649 Old 02-13-2020, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Scottt1174 View Post
Try this. Any better?
Are you talking about the lightness around it or the blotches in the center?

I don't have ATV+ so I can't look at that.

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post #28474 of 28649 Old 02-13-2020, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Scottt1174 View Post
Try this. Any better?
Is the HDMI port your ATV4K is plugged in to set to HDMI 2.0? Leaving the port set to auto can sometimes cause issues like what you're seeing.
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post #28475 of 28649 Old 02-13-2020, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottt1174 View Post
Try this. Any better?
Is the HDMI port your ATV4K is plugged in to set to HDMI 2.0? Leaving the port set to auto can sometimes cause issues like what you're seeing.
Yeppers. Yes I am aware of that. I am pretty knowledgeable with TCL TV's. It's also not my HDMI cable..☹️
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post #28476 of 28649 Old 02-13-2020, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottt1174 View Post
Try this. Any better?
Are you talking about the lightness around it or the blotches in the center?

I don't have ATV+ so I can't look at that.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
The blotchiness. Like in dark scenes where it's supposed to be a dark black it's like a gray shadow effect around people. Sorry I don't know how to explain better. The gray that I spoke about should be black.
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post #28477 of 28649 Old 02-13-2020, 10:41 AM
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I was watching the show "Cheers" on my LG C9 this morning using the built-in Apple app and the video was very choppy instead of smooth. I then switched to the Fire TV Apple app and the same thing happened there. I don't recall seeing this on my Vizio display. Is this something to do with the 24hz vs. 60hz issue? Should I watch this show with the Apple TV 4k instead since it might handle the refresh rate better?

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post #28478 of 28649 Old 02-13-2020, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
I was watching the show "Cheers" on my LG C9 this morning using the built-in Apple app and the video was very choppy instead of smooth. I then switched to the Fire TV Apple app and the same thing happened there. I don't recall seeing this on my Vizio display. Is this something to do with the 24hz vs. 60hz issue? Should I watch this show with the Apple TV 4k instead since it might handle the refresh rate better?
Cheers as a TV show was probably recorded at 60hz.
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post #28479 of 28649 Old 02-13-2020, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by naustin View Post
Cheers as a TV show was probably recorded at 60hz.
Even the new HD masters?
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post #28480 of 28649 Old 02-13-2020, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by hodgjy View Post
I'm not the one asking for help--I'm trying to help the person who asked. I stated I've duplicated the issue, repeatable 100% of the time. I'm fine with the issue as I've learned to live with it. I have more important things to worry about in life, but I was trying to put someone else's mind at ease who was worried his Apple TV or TV was faulty.
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I don’t doubt he has seen issues, the question is what are the exact settings and any other interesting information/detail for everything in the video chain.

Also, since it is apparently reproducible exact time codes in material will help others attempt to see if they can see an issue.
I'm the one that posted the question about random light bands in the lower letterbox bar in Netflix content. Shift work I do has kept me from having the opportunity to answer. Finally though, last night I pulled up Episode 3 from October Faction. Got just just over 3 minutes into it and was able to get a snap shot of screen paused at minute mark 3:10. The time stamp disappeared before i got the shot, but quickly did another shot when I hit play and you can see that time stamp of 3:13 and the artifact is gone. The first picture below shows the artifact in letterbox bar, the second pic is after I hit play.

I know it's been a few days since I posted and much has been said since, but still wanted to share what I was seeing to see if anyone can duplicate.
Signal chain is: ATV4k to DenonX6200(media player input) then into TV(whichever input is ARC). The same chain from Denon to TV works great with DV from Sony X700 BD player, only difference would be using the BD input into the Denon.
Last night I also played See (episode 3) on Appletv+ thru the ATV4k with no issues or banding.
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post #28481 of 28649 Old 02-13-2020, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naustin View Post
Cheers as a TV show was probably recorded at 60hz.
Is this why the show is choppy on one TV and not the other?

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post #28482 of 28649 Old 02-13-2020, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lujan View Post
Is this why the show is choppy on one TV and not the other?
I haven't watched the show but it is available on Netflix & Hulu as well as to buy from other sources. I'd suggest trying another App.
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post #28483 of 28649 Old 02-13-2020, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naustin View Post
Cheers as a TV show was probably recorded at 60hz.
Cheers was all shot on film at 24fps. (They did use different film stock and cameras throughout the series though.)
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post #28484 of 28649 Old 02-14-2020, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
Is this why the show is choppy on one TV and not the other?

I can't answer that but I do know that we were watching some of the early episodes using the Netflix app on my ATV4K and it was a REALLY nice clean image. I was really impressed for such an older show.
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post #28485 of 28649 Old 02-14-2020, 06:22 AM
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Word to the wise. I decided to try AT&T Now on the ATV4k don't even try it for free. It sucks. All the live and on demand movies shutter and out of sync. What a terrible service.
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post #28486 of 28649 Old 02-14-2020, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
Cheers was all shot on film at 24fps. (They did use different film stock and cameras throughout the series though.)
As were all MTM Production shows. If properly preserved a treasure trove of 4K material. Norman Lear shows we’re all shot on 2” video tape. They will not be.

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post #28487 of 28649 Old 02-14-2020, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
I was watching the show "Cheers" on my LG C9 this morning using the built-in Apple app and the video was very choppy instead of smooth. I then switched to the Fire TV Apple app and the same thing happened there. I don't recall seeing this on my Vizio display. Is this something to do with the 24hz vs. 60hz issue? Should I watch this show with the Apple TV 4k instead since it might handle the refresh rate better?
This show on Netflix is at 23.976 Hz, so you would be fine to watch it there on the ATV4K if you have match framerate enabled (possibly even with the ATV doing the 3:2 pulldown for 60Hz, but I haven't tried this, as I always use native framerate); sorry, I can't speak to the framerate of the show if you purchased it via iTunes

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post #28488 of 28649 Old 02-14-2020, 10:02 AM
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Apple TV owners' thread. FAQ in first post

Quote:
Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
This show on Netflix is at 23.976 Hz, so you would be fine to watch it there on the ATV4K if you have match framerate enabled (possibly even with the ATV doing the 3:2 pulldown for 60Hz, but I haven't tried this, as I always use native framerate); sorry, I can't speak to the framerate of the show if you purchased it via iTunes


One of the problems is what does the op mean by choppy? It’s not a good description of an occasional 24hz induced frame drop issue.

I myself think that the title sequence for CBS’s Picard looks “choppy” but that is the intentional visual design.

Edit: Note that the op also said it happened on his FireStick so this is not an ATV issue as the root cause. Given that he said he did not see the issue on his older TV I’d take the question to the thread for his new TV.
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post #28489 of 28649 Old 02-14-2020, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rsonnens View Post
One of the problems is what does the op mean by choppy? It’s not a good discrimination of an occasional 24hz induced frame drop issue.

I myself think that title sequence for CBS’s Picard looks “choppy” but that is the intentional visual design.

Edit: Note that the op also said it happened on his FireStick so this is not an ATV issue as the root cause. Given that he said he did not see the issue on his older TV I’d take the question to the thread for his new TV.
I'll do that but next time I'll see if I can capture it on video as well, thanks!

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post #28490 of 28649 Old 02-14-2020, 05:04 PM
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Hey guys, I just got a new AVR, the Sony STR-DN1080, and anything I play through the ATV4K shows up on the display as PCM. 2 Channel, 5.1, 7.1, even Atmos. I read through the first page of this thread and about how the ATV doesn't passthrough audio so I'm pretty sure what I'm seeing is normal, but I just wanted to double check because my old receiver, a budget Harman Kardon, would display Dolby for all of the 5.1 content on Netflix or iTunes, etc... Is that because it couldn't handle PCM and would convert it to DD? Any confirmation would be appreciated. Thanks!
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post #28491 of 28649 Old 02-14-2020, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
I'm the one that posted the question about random light bands in the lower letterbox bar in Netflix content. Shift work I do has kept me from having the opportunity to answer. Finally though, last night I pulled up Episode 3 from October Faction. Got just just over 3 minutes into it and was able to get a snap shot of screen paused at minute mark 3:10. The time stamp disappeared before i got the shot, but quickly did another shot when I hit play and you can see that time stamp of 3:13 and the artifact is gone. The first picture below shows the artifact in letterbox bar, the second pic is after I hit play.
I tried episode 3 at that timestamp and see the same thing. But the problem is show/movie specific, I've watched the first couple episodes of season 2 of Narcos: Mexico in DV and saw no artifacts at all. Most people are just oblivious to things like this or have their blacks crushed so unfortunately I don't think we're going to get it fixed anytime soon.
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post #28492 of 28649 Old 02-14-2020, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
I'm the one that posted the question about random light bands in the lower letterbox bar in Netflix content. Shift work I do has kept me from having the opportunity to answer. Finally though, last night I pulled up Episode 3 from October Faction. Got just just over 3 minutes into it and was able to get a snap shot of screen paused at minute mark 3:10. The time stamp disappeared before i got the shot, but quickly did another shot when I hit play and you can see that time stamp of 3:13 and the artifact is gone. The first picture below shows the artifact in letterbox bar, the second pic is after I hit play.



I know it's been a few days since I posted and much has been said since, but still wanted to share what I was seeing to see if anyone can duplicate.

Signal chain is: ATV4k to DenonX6200(media player input) then into TV(whichever input is ARC). The same chain from Denon to TV works great with DV from Sony X700 BD player, only difference would be using the BD input into the Denon.

Last night I also played See (episode 3) on Appletv+ thru the ATV4k with no issues or banding.
I'm still not sure what part of that first image im suppose to look at. All is see and maybe it's your camera is posturization coming out of black and it.looks like that also happens in your black bar (cinema bar) section. The glow is cause by the light reflecting into that area. All LCDs will do this to some degree. The posturization or blocky blotches I can't say exactly why but my display has the glow but not the blocks...... Any grain in the below image is camera induced.


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post #28493 of 28649 Old 02-14-2020, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
I'm still not sure what part of that first image im suppose to look at. All is see and maybe it's your camera is posturization coming out of black and it.looks like that also happens in your black bar (cinema bar) section. The glow is cause by the light reflecting into that area. All LCDs will do this to some degree. The posturization or blocky blotches I can't say exactly why but my display has the glow but not the blocks...... Any grain in the below image is camera induced.


Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

Bottom right in the black letterboxed bar, there is image content which isn't meant to be there, causing the local dimming to 'light up' that area and make the black bars grey.


That unwanted image content appears to be low level white blocks.


I get the same thing.


It's NOT the camera.


It's not normal local dimming LCD light bleed.


It's being caused by something in the black bars which isn't meant to be there.
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post #28494 of 28649 Old 02-14-2020, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Mecak View Post
Bottom right in the black letterboxed bar, there is image content which isn't meant to be there, causing the local dimming to 'light up' that area and make the black bars grey.


That unwanted image content appears to be low level white blocks.


I get the same thing.


It's NOT the camera.


It's not normal local dimming LCD light bleed.


It's being caused by something in the black bars which isn't meant to be there.
That is glowing from the content and is smooth not blotchy like the picture shows. That is lit because the zone is larger than the image on the screen so the narrow cinema bars will glow like you have local dimming off in those areas. The narrow bars will show this more because as I said they are smaller than the zone size.

Looks exactly the same on my atv4k, the Sony Android TV built-in Netflix app and the FireTV 4l stick in DV and the FireTV HDR Pendant playing in HDR10.

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post #28495 of 28649 Old 02-15-2020, 07:33 AM
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Thanks guys for everyone chiming in here and there about the issues with Netflix doing something with the letterbox bars. I'll try seeing if I can adjust my blacks, but for now important thing is I dont have a defective ATV4k.

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post #28496 of 28649 Old 02-15-2020, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
Thanks guys for everyone chiming in here and there about the issues with Netflix doing something with the letterbox bars. I'll try seeing if I can adjust my blacks, but for now important thing is I dont have a defective ATV4k.
Sorry, Netflix is tough with those dumb narrow cinema bars. They always have to try and be different than the industry. It causes problem for both OLEDs and LCDs but in different ways.

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post #28497 of 28649 Old 02-15-2020, 02:19 PM
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I don't understand your first point. You press play and the luminance data changes at major boundaries. It seems to me those are luminance changes within a single feature at notable boundaries which are "segments within main content where the data changes without being on a time based interval". Are you moving your goalposts?
You yourself observed the difference between boundary locations being within the main feature as you called it (I called it main content and specified examples of what weren't boundaries within main content). You didn't observe changes within the main feature. It isn't a moving of the goalposts; I asked about main content (main feature) and you replied referring to a post which didn't find changes in data in main feature, but saying "yes" it did meet the question I asked.

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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
I've read various specifications. So far I've failed to find a definition of sequence that requires concatenated segments of HDR-10 content to have constant luminance data or to require a new handshake if that data changes. E.g. the underwater "Aerial" screen savers.
Dolby themselves define static metadata being constant for an "entire deliverable". CEA define it for a "stream". The BDA who contributed the MaxCLL and MaxFALL fields to the standard defined them as static for a "program". I don't think there is any reading of any definition I've seen that gets to changing every 30s in a piece of content being OK!
For what it is worth no one is arguing that a pre-roll, or an advert, or a trailer or any of those things presented after you press play outside of the main feature must have the same metadata; for a variety of reasons that is likely totally impractical.

You can see this definition publicly in a technical appendix for their grading guidelines for DV, which cover the provision of HDR10 static data (optionally).
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...cticesV3_1.pdf

The UHD forum document the BDA information here and defined MaxCLL and MaxFALL as being static for the Program.
https://www.ultrahdforum.org/wp-cont...ummer-2016.pdf

UHD alliance have a similar view on the matter... "Static metadata does not change during playback, offering one fixed HDR picture enhancement across an entire piece of content".

The CEA standard which is the official definition of the signalling being used isn't available freely (will cost you $67 to buy the standard unless you are a CEA member) but for the enterprising out there it can be found for free via the Chinese search engine Baidu...
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post #28498 of 28649 Old 02-15-2020, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
You didn't observe changes within the main feature

I don't think there is any reading of any definition I've seen that gets to changing every 30s in a piece of content being OK!

For what it is worth no one is arguing that a pre-roll, or an advert, or a trailer or any of those things presented after you press play outside of the main feature must have the same metadata; for a variety of reasons that is likely totally impractical.
I misunderstood. When I say main feature I mean from 0:00 of the movie to the end -- logos, production house animations, open credits, end credits to post-credit. The not main feature parts are what Apple calles iTunes Extras, trailers selection menus etc. I suspect most people would agree.

I never said it's sensible to change meta data at fixed short intervals, but interpreting standards is not something that should be done in isolation. People can disagree about what undefined or non-normative words mean. That's why they have "connect-a-thons" and errata.

CTA-861-G is free.

And yes, it has been argued that you can't change static meta-data without doing a new handshake if that's what you meant. Your use of "main feature" is confusing me.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #28499 of 28649 Old 02-15-2020, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
I misunderstood. When I say main feature I mean from 0:00 of the movie to the end -- logos, production house animations, open credits, end credits to post-credit. The not main feature parts are what Apple calles iTunes Extras, trailers selection menus etc. I suspect most people would agree.

I never said it's sensible to change meta data at fixed short intervals, but interpreting standards is not something that should be done in isolation. People can disagree about what undefined or non-normative words mean. That's why they have "connect-a-thons" and errata.

CTA-861-G is free.

And yes, it has been argued that you can't change static meta-data without doing a new handshake if that's what you meant. Your use of "main feature" is confusing me.
Thanks for the note on the CTA specs. It was ANSI trying to rob me... (https://webstore.ansi.org/standards/...612015-1528168)

I don't think there is any valid argument that a static metadata has to be accompanied by a new handshake - that would seem ludicrous as the infoframe data is transmitted with every frame of video. However it certainly isn't specified that you should expect an instant or glitch free response to a change in infoframe data, which is the main reason you shouldn't change it during content where continuity is required. For the same reason you wouldn't change audio formats mid-stream either - it's not guaranteed that playback devices can deal with such things without interruption.

I take your point that you might be able to (mis) interpret the intention of the spec, but I really don't believe that is what is happening here. I don't think anyone has set out as engineering intention for the metadata to change thinking they were doing something useful for the end user. More likely it is some encoding issue or a bug in the player engine (eg where no static data has been specified some is fabricated instead of being left blank.

It wouldn't totally surprise me if we actually ended up here because such a furore was made over static metadata being incorrect originally, and this is the result of some botched engineering attempt to resolve that...
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post #28500 of 28649 Old 02-15-2020, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
Thanks guys for everyone chiming in here and there about the issues with Netflix doing something with the letterbox bars.
I looked at this and I don't see the gross artifact you show however the lower letterbox is full of noise, not just at the 3m area and not the usual dither-like noise that's common with Netflix. Fortunately for me I can't see it unless:
1) All the lights are out.
2) I get very close.

Neither of those things happen during my typical viewing.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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