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post #11461 of 11572 Old 08-14-2019, 11:46 AM
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You have clearly approached home media servers from a full-on, industrial strength IT perspective. (Your awareness of, citing of and incorporation of warranties into your scheme gets ts you extra nerd credit.) From the posts of a few others, they might have the same background. I get what you are saying because I read a lot. But most here started with the idea of streaming their movies from local storage and, perhaps, losing all the crap the studios make physical medium users sit through. Next would be how do they back up files, though Id guess most have no backup due to the layered on additional cost.

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post #11462 of 11572 Old 08-14-2019, 12:41 PM
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This is one reason I like unRAID. You can add drives as needed. You could start out with one parity and a few array drives. And later on you could add one, five, or twenty drives or so. And also add a second parity drive. It can grow in size as your needs grow.

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post #11463 of 11572 Old 08-14-2019, 12:46 PM
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Drives don't need to spin if they are not being used. I run a small i3/Win-10 PC as my media server. I have an 8-drive eSATA port replicator card attached to a pair of 4-bay eSATA enclosures -- all filled. The disk farm is run as independent drives -- I guess you call that JBOD. RAID redundancy is provided with SnapRAID. For the parity drive I use a single USB drive, so none of my enclosure space is lost. Since SnapRAID uses Snapshot redundancy, the parity drive only needs to be powered when the parity rebuild is requested. As far as the media-containing eSATA drives of the disk farm, Win-10 turns them off after a specified idle time -- I have mine set for 30 min.
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post #11464 of 11572 Old 08-14-2019, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
This is one reason I like unRAID. You can add drives as needed. You could start out with one parity and a few array drives. And later on you could add one, five, or twenty drives or so. And also add a second parity drive. It can grow in size as your needs grow.

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Plus the drives can be any size.
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post #11465 of 11572 Old 08-14-2019, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Drives don't need to spin if they are not being used. I run a small i3/Win-10 PC as my media server. I have an 8-drive eSATA port replicator card attached to a pair of 4-bay eSATA enclosures -- all filled. The disk farm is run as independent drives -- I guess you call that JBOD. RAID redundancy is provided with SnapRAID. For the parity drive I use a single USB drive, so none of my enclosure space is lost. Since SnapRAID uses Snapshot redundancy, the parity drive only needs to be powered when the parity rebuild is requested. As far as the media-containing eSATA drives of the disk farm, Win-10 turns them off after a specified idle time -- I have mine set for 30 min.
Good point. Spin down is the rule these days.

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post #11466 of 11572 Old 08-14-2019, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post
Be aware that Synology also offers "Expansion Units" which add another 5 or more drive slots to an existing NAS. Most of the "plus" series and above are compatible with one of the expansion units.
That's good to know! Thanks for bringing that up.

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Originally Posted by jasonkennethrose View Post
I use RAID 1/5/6 all the time for accessibility and availability. Like using RAID 1 for Server OS drives and RAID 5 or 6 for accessibility and availability for volatile data during a drive failure. These types allow for a system or data to always be available when a drive failure occurs.

Storing media is not cost effective at 24/7 availability. What it does need is reliability. You can live without whatever is on a single drive during the time it needs to be replaced. Once a single drive is full the data never changes or at least on my NAS's it doesn't. I have no reason to change the data. I don't delete or create anything on the drives once they are full. I connect a My Passport, make a 1:1 copy, and place it in the safe.

This is why I choose to use JBOD and an offline backup solution. It gives me the most enclosure space and the most enclosure size with no chance of having to re-rip all my discs. I fully expect my drives to fail at some point. All my drives have 5 year warranties. If a drive fails while under warranty, I RMA it, replace the drive, and copy data from backup. If a drive fails after the warranty, I replace the drive with the best TB/$$ drive, and copy data from backup. If the drive does not fail but my enclosure is full, I replace the drive with the best TB/$$ drive, and copy data from backup.

As for my warranty comment. Spinning a drive that outlasts its warranty and fails but never sees data is a waste of money. If you currently need 5TB of storage and expect to need a total of 10TB in 3 years buying 10TB of storage with a 3 year warranty is good. Buying 20TB of storage, only using 10TB, and having a drive fail at the 3 year 1 day mark was a waste of money. Once again this is based on non-volatile data.
It's certainly a interesting and tempting setup, although I don't envy the idea of managing so many volumes. But I'm guessing with today's media software it will easily handle multiple sources.

Then there is the cost. I was already over budget shucking drives from WD easystores. Your plan uses the more expensive WD or Seagate NAS drives. Plus your external drives double the total cost of the drives.


Quote:
Last plug for JBOD with offline backups for non-volatile data. No amount of RAID will help you recover from complete loss (Fire, Flooding, Natural Disaster, Locust, Famine).
Worried primarily about two threats. Lightning and theft. The latter isn't a big threat, IMO. The former is HUGE. I just lost my router, and switch. I could see me losing an ethernet port on my NAS or even the MOBO. And I'm unsure if I could simply pull the drives out and place into a new NAS. So from that perspective, your plan is tempting (although that may mean another fireproof safe in the house).

The real question is do we see us doing all this in 5-7 years?
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post #11467 of 11572 Old 08-14-2019, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post
though Id guess most have no backup due to the layered on additional cost.

Jeff
Exactly. Many of us are already pushing the limits of our budgets. Because we aren't talking about just the server. That's just part of the entire household AV budget that includes portable devices. And remember, our data is backed up. It's just in the form of discs that would need to be re-ripped. So yeah, it would be a royal pain but it's not gone. A standalone data back up is more for convenience than necessity.
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post #11468 of 11572 Old 08-14-2019, 07:00 PM
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My solution and balanced approach which was a RAID 5 system all from shucked drives where I can lose a drive and swap in a new one to allow the NAS to migrate back. All a single volume, can be read by all my devices internally and outside my network. I then I bought a relatively cheap UPS to connect in case of power outages, surges, and brown-outs.

I think it is just a matter of balancing all the factors, how much media you have backed up, etc. to come up with your preferred approach. Personally, I am not comfortable with not having any sort of safety net based on the time I have invested.

That was mine because I don't want to spend 400+ hours backing up all my discs again. Heck, I am backing up Endgame right now and it is taking well over an hour.
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post #11469 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 12:16 AM
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Both John and Sally want to build a NAS to store their media. They both decide on using the same 4 bay enclosure that maxes out at 4 x 12TB drives.

Some constants:
Enclosure $500.00
4TB drives with 5 year warranty $150.00
8TB drives with 5 year warranty $300.00
12TB drives with 5 year warranty $400.00
12TB drives with 3 year warranty $300.00
4TB My Passport $100.00
4TB media archived per year.
Drives will fail when warranty expires. (Hypothetically, don't beat me up over this number)
Drives will cost 50% less every time warranty expires. (Hypothetically, don't beat me up over this number)
Drives will never cost less then $100.00. (Hypothetically, don't beat me up over this number)
John will use RAID 5.
Sally will use JBOD with offline backups.

Day 1:
John buys his enclosure and 4 x 12TB 3 year drives $1700.00
Sally buys her enclosure and 1 x 4TB 5 year drive $650.00
John sets up RAID 5 leaving 36TB for use.
Sally sets up a single physical disk leaving 4TB for use.

Year 1 Day 1:
John has 32TB remaining.
Sally has 0TB remaining.
Sally buys 1 x 4TB 5 year drive for $150.00 and 1 My Passport for $100.00 ($900.00 total)
Sally sets up a single physical disk leaving 4TB for use.
Sally copies her first drive to the My Passport and places it in a safe.

Year 2 Day 1:
John has 28TB remaining.
Sally has 0TB remaining.
Sally buys 1 x 4TB 5 year drive for $150.00 and 1 My Passport for $100.00 ($1150.00 total)
Sally sets up a single physical disk leaving 4TB for use.
Sally copies her second drive to the My Passport and places it in a safe.

Year 3 Day 1:
John has 24TB remaining.
Sally has 0TB remaining.
Sally buys 1 x 4TB 5 year drive for $150.00 and 1 My Passport for $100.00 ($1300.00 total)
Sally sets up a single physical disk leaving 4TB for use.
Sally copies her third drive to the My Passport and places it in a safe.

Year 4 Day 1:
John has 20TB remaining.
John loses all 4 drives to failure over then next few months and has to replace them. ($2300.00 total)
Sally has 0TB remaining.
Sally buys 1 x 8TB 5 year drive for $300.00 and 1 My Passport for $100.00 ($1700.00 total)
Sally sets up a single physical disk leaving 8TB for use.
Sally pulls her first My Passport from the safe and copies it back to the new 8TB drive.
Sally copies her fourth drive to the My Passport and places it in a safe.

Year 5 Day 1:
John has 16TB remaining.
Sally has 0TB remaining.
Sally buys 1 x 8TB 5 year drive for $300.00 and 1 My Passport for $100.00 ($2100.00 total)
Sally sets up a single physical disk leaving 8TB for use.
Sally pulls her second My Passport from the safe and copies it back to the new 8TB drive.
Sally copies her first drive to the My Passport and places it in a safe.

Year 6 Day 1:
John has 12TB remaining.
Sally has 0TB remaining.
Sally buys 1 x 8TB 5 year drive for $150.00 and 1 My Passport for $100.00 ($2350.00 total)
Sally sets up a single physical disk leaving 8TB for use.
Sally pulls her third My Passport from the safe and copies it back to the new 8TB drive.
Sally copies her second drive to the My Passport and places it in a safe.

Year 7 Day 1:
John has 8TB remaining.
Sally has 0TB remaining.
Sally buys 1 x 8TB 5 year drive for $150.00 and 1 My Passport for $100.00 ($2600.00 total)
Sally sets up a single physical disk leaving 8TB for use.
Sally pulls her fourth My Passport from the safe and copies it back to the new 8TB drive.
Sally copies her third drive to the My Passport and places it in a safe.

Year 8 Day 1:
John has 4TB remaining.
John loses all 4 drives to failure over then next few months and has to replace them. ($2700.00 total)
Sally has 0TB remaining.
Sally buys 1 x 12TB 5 year drive for $200.00 and 1 My Passport for $100.00 ($2900.00 total)
Sally sets up a single physical disk leaving 12TB for use.
Sally pulls her first and fifth My Passport from the safe and copies it back to the new 12TB drive.
Sally copies her fourth drive to the My Passport and places it in a safe.

Year 9 Day 1:
John has 0TB remaining. (Does he buy a whole new NAS?)
Sally has 0TB remaining.
Sally buys 1 x 12TB 5 year drive for $200.00 and 1 My Passport for $100.00 ($3100.00 total)
Sally sets up a single physical disk leaving 12TB for use.
Sally pulls her second and sixth My Passport from the safe and copies it back to the new 12TB drive.
Sally copies her first drive to the My Passport and places it in a safe.

Year 10 Day 1:
John has 0TB remaining. (Does he buy a whole new NAS?)
Sally has 0TB remaining.
Sally buys 1 x 12TB 5 year drive for $200.00 and 1 My Passport for $100.00 ($3400.00 total)
Sally sets up a single physical disk leaving 12TB for use.
Sally pulls her third and seventh My Passport from the safe and copies it back to the new 12TB drive.
Sally copies her second drive to the My Passport and places it in a safe.

Year 11 Day 1:
John has 0TB remaining. (Does he buy a whole new NAS?)
Sally has 0TB remaining.
Sally buys 1 x 12TB 5 year drive for $100.00 and 1 My Passport for $100.00 ($3600.00 total)
Sally sets up a single physical disk leaving 12TB for use.
Sally pulls her fourth and eighth My Passport from the safe and copies it back to the new 12TB drive.
Sally copies her third drive to the My Passport and places it in a safe.

Year 12 Day 1:
John has 0TB remaining. (Does he buy a whole new NAS?)
John loses all 4 drives to failure over then next few months and has to replace them. ($3100.00 total)
Sally has 0TB remaining.
Sally buys 1 My Passport for $100.00 ($3700.00 total)
Sally copies her fourth drive to the My Passport and places it in a safe.

At year 12:
John has spent $3100.00, has 36TB stored, has been out of space for 3 years, and has replaced all 4 drives 3 times due to failure. (Cost goes up if he bought a second NAS at the 9 year mark)
Sally has spent $3700.00, has 48TB stored, has 12 x 4TB My Passport's in the safe, has been out of space for 0 years, has replaced 0 drives due to failures, and won't see a failure until the 15 year mark.

John gets pissed at Sally for being smarter than him by spending only $600.00 more and getting 12TB more online and 48TB offline storage. He takes a sledgehammer to Sally's NAS. Sally in turn takes a sledgehammer to John's NAS. They both cool down and agree to pay for each other replacement. John sets up his NAS and begins to re-rip all 36TB of disc's over then next few months. Sally sets up her NAS, pulls her drives from the safe, and copies them back to the NAS over then next couple of days.

I am sure this post will be picked apart but this was just to show the difference in strategies. Don't take it all in absolute truth, it is to show proof of concept. I am now done on this topic.

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post #11470 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 05:27 AM
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Problem is drives don't fail like that. For instance I recently removed around thirty 2TB Seagate drives from my three unRAID setups. THey had been in use for seven to nine years. In a WHS and then unRAIDs. I never had any issues with them. Then I have another dozen 2TB drives in my unRAIDs, that are just as old, no issues. I also have around sixteen 3TB Seagate drives. That have been in use for five to seven years. Again no issues. I have around half a dozen 4TB drives that have been in use for four to fives years. No issues.

And then most recently I added a couple of dozen Seagate 4TB NAS rated drives. The drives were manufactured in 2013 but were still new so hopefully they work as well.
I still have a few WD 2TB drives in use and those are eight to ten years old. Again no issues.
And all but a few of those 2TB and 3TB drives are not even NAS rated. Yet most of them have many years of power on hours with no problems.

I've used literally hundreds of drives at home over the last twenty years. Failures have been a rare occurrence. The last time I had a drive fail was a couple of years ago. A 2.5" 4TB Seagate SMR drive I had in a TiVo Bolt. But I have another one in another Bolt that has been fine for almost four years now. But those are also SMR drives and they are running 24/7.

I even have some drives around here from over twenty years ago, they never died. Even my expensive 20MB, yes 20MB drive, I installed in 1990 or so. IN a PC I purchased back in 1984(an IBM PC with 8088 processor) still works. Although why I keep that ancient PC around? I don't know?

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post #11471 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agogley View Post
The real question is do we see us doing all this in 5-7 years?
Will we be using local storage then or will data speeds and rates make cloud storage the way to go?


If we do still use local storage, will it be solid state?

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post #11472 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Will we be using local storage then or will data speeds and rates make cloud storage the way to go?


If we do still use local storage, will it be solid state?

I prefer to have local storage. I don't like the idea of maintaining subscriptions to access my own files.


If solid state storage becomes cheaper than HDD storage I'll start buying SSDs as I need them. I doubt that will happen in the next 5-7 years but you never know.
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post #11473 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post
I prefer to have local storage. I don't like the idea of maintaining subscriptions to access my own files.


If solid state storage becomes cheaper than HDD storage I'll start buying SSDs as I need them. I doubt that will happen in the next 5-7 years but you never know.
Yes. Not very likely. Unless something major changes, platter drives will still give the best value for storage. Although I wonder what the largest size platter drive will be in five to seven years.

I don't need superfast speeds for my storage. I can already saturate my gigabit network with any drives I've used in my WHS or unRAIDs over the last eleven years. I hope to eventually step up to 2.5Gbps(with Cat5e) and 5Gbps (with Cat6) sometime in the next couple of years. Then I can at least take advantage of the up to 1.5Gbps speeds my 5400/5900 rpm platter drives currently have.
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post #11474 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Yes. Not very likely. Unless something major changes, platter drives will still give the best value for storage. Although I wonder what the largest size platter drive will be in five to seven years.

I don't need superfast speeds for my storage. I can already saturate my gigabit network with any drives I've used in my WHS or unRAIDs over the last eleven years. I hope to eventually step up to 2.5Gbps(with Cat5e) and 5Gbps (with Cat6) sometime in the next couple of years. Then I can at least take advantage of the up to 1.5Gbps speeds my 5400/5900 rpm platter drives currently have.
I have the same mind set. All my PCs are SSD only but that is because I want them to operate as fast as possible, reduce loads times for heavy workloads, etc. but with my NAS it is purely for media storage and consumption. I have the option to add M.2 SSDs for caching in my NAS but I don't see any need because I am not thrashing massive databases and tables or have a huge number of users.

As it stands my NIC is the bottleneck and I have the option to install a 10Gbps NIC in it if I wanted but I don't see the need to upgrade my switches and network, particularly because the primary audience for my NAS is my media players which I couldn't get 10Gbps on anyway. Then on top of that, I can easily stream untouched (sans decrypted) full 4K BD discs to all my system simultaneously.
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post #11475 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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jasonkennethrose:

I appreciate your methodology and your input. There is a lot about it to recommend and is obviously the safest in terms of redundancy. You always know you can restore any drive or all the drive if there is a failure or read errors.

I want you to know that I'm giving it serious consideration. So please don't think I'm dismissing you out of hand. I'm absolutely not.

Having said that, I think you very much are unrealistic about the costs involved. Your methodology will cost twice as much every time, all the time. There's no getting around the fact you have to buy twice the number of drives.

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post #11476 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 04:26 PM
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My vote goes to snapraid+drive pool. Allows redundancy and puts all my drives into one pool. Once I got beyond one drive for my movies folder having them in multiple was a pain. Now it is all in one place and runs on windows 10. For some this is a weakness, but for me the computer does other things as well so it opens it up to more usages.
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post #11477 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Will we be using local storage then or will data speeds and rates make cloud storage the way to go?


If we do still use local storage, will it be solid state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post
I prefer to have local storage. I don't like the idea of maintaining subscriptions to access my own files.


If solid state storage becomes cheaper than HDD storage I'll start buying SSDs as I need them. I doubt that will happen in the next 5-7 years but you never know.


Personally, I think subscription services will be the way to go. It's cheaper to pay $20, $30 or even $40 a month than it is to continue to buy BD or 4K (or both). I mean 12 discs a year aren't that much and that's over $20 a piece. Plus streaming services mean you have a digital version available formatted for your devices. The reason why most of us don't pay for Netflix or Amazon (exclusively) is because the picture isn't as good as the disc and neither is the sound. As that changes and streaming quality gets closer to that of an actual disc, I don't see how having your own NAS can compete.
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post #11478 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Problem is drives don't fail like that. For instance I recently removed around thirty 2TB Seagate drives from my three unRAID setups. THey had been in use for seven to nine years. In a WHS and then unRAIDs. I never had any issues with them. Then I have another dozen 2TB drives in my unRAIDs, that are just as old, no issues. I also have around sixteen 3TB Seagate drives. That have been in use for five to seven years. Again no issues. I have around half a dozen 4TB drives that have been in use for four to fives years. No issues.

And then most recently I added a couple of dozen Seagate 4TB NAS rated drives. The drives were manufactured in 2013 but were still new so hopefully they work as well.
I still have a few WD 2TB drives in use and those are eight to ten years old. Again no issues.
And all but a few of those 2TB and 3TB drives are not even NAS rated. Yet most of them have many years of power on hours with no problems.

I've used literally hundreds of drives at home over the last twenty years. Failures have been a rare occurrence. The last time I had a drive fail was a couple of years ago. A 2.5" 4TB Seagate SMR drive I had in a TiVo Bolt. But I have another one in another Bolt that has been fine for almost four years now. But those are also SMR drives and they are running 24/7.

I even have some drives around here from over twenty years ago, they never died. Even my expensive 20MB, yes 20MB drive, I installed in 1990 or so. IN a PC I purchased back in 1984(an IBM PC with 8088 processor) still works. Although why I keep that ancient PC around? I don't know?
Feel free to do some reading. https://www.backblaze.com/b2/hard-drive-test-data.html

In my personal and business experience I find that the average failure is 6 years. If you do some research you will find most agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agogley View Post
jasonkennethrose:

I appreciate your methodology and your input. There is a lot about it to recommend and is obviously the safest in terms of redundancy. You always know you can restore any drive or all the drive if there is a failure or read errors.

I want you to know that I'm giving it serious consideration. So please don't think I'm dismissing you out of hand. I'm absolutely not.

Having said that, I think you very much are unrealistic about the costs involved. Your methodology will cost twice as much every time, all the time. There's no getting around the fact you have to buy twice the number of drives.
Twice the drives doesn't mean twice the price. Also the extra cost doesn't come all at once.
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post #11479 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 05:00 PM
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My vote goes to snapraid+drive pool. Allows redundancy and puts all my drives into one pool. Once I got beyond one drive for my movies folder having them in multiple was a pain. Now it is all in one place and runs on windows 10. For some this is a weakness, but for me the computer does other things as well so it opens it up to more usages.
That's my way too. I use Win-10 as the OS because it is also running several media server programs along with controlling the disk farm. I don't need Drivepool because my media server software does the drive aggregation. I just drop the video files in the HDD that has the appropriate amt of space left.

On a different note, how many drives can be serviced/protected by a single parity drive. I understand that 1 parity drive protects against a single drive failure -- that's not what I'm asking. I currently have 8 drives protected by a single parity drive in SnapRAID. How many more drives could I add.

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post #11480 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 05:07 PM
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Personally, I think subscription services will be the way to go. It's cheaper to pay $20, $30 or even $40 a month than it is to continue to buy BD or 4K (or both). I mean 12 discs a year aren't that much and that's over $20 a piece. Plus streaming services mean you have a digital version available formatted for your devices. The reason why most of us don't pay for Netflix or Amazon (exclusively) is because the picture isn't as good as the disc and neither is the sound. As that changes and streaming quality gets closer to that of an actual disc, I don't see how having your own NAS can compete.
Well, let's see how much that tiered Internet service is going to cost when you start streaming higher bitrate video and HD audio and gobble bandwidth.
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post #11481 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 05:09 PM
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That's my way too. I use Win-10 as the OS because it is also running several media server programs along with controlling the disk farm. I don't need Drivepool because my media server software does the drive aggregation. I just drop the video files in the HDD that has the appropriate amt of space left.



On a different note, how many drives can be serviced/protected by a single parity drive. I understand that 1 parity drive protects against a single drive failure -- that's not what I'm asking. I currently have 8 drives protected by a single parity drive in SnapRAID. How many more drives could I add.

Yeah my media server handles that as well. But from the file level searching through various drives got old. You don't need drivepool. But for $30 you'll appreciate it. I also have all the drives mounted in a folder for snapraid. So in Windows all I see is the pool which shows up as one drive. And the C drive.

As far as parity I am not sure but that's a lot of drives to have only one parity for. It's usually not recommended to go over 4 drives for one parity drive. I guess the thinking is the more drives your have with a single parity the higher the risk for multiple drive failure.

And then you won't be able to recover.

But I am not sure of the maximum in snapraid. I didn't even realize you could do 8.

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Yeah my media server handles that as well. But from the file level searching through various drives got old. You don't need drivepool. But for $30 you'll appreciate it. I also have all the drives mounted in a folder for snapraid. So in Windows all I see is the pool which shows up as one drive. And the C drive.

As far as parity I am not sure but that's a lot of drives to have only one parity for. It's usually not recommended to go over 4 drives for one parity drive. I guess the thinking is the more drives your have with a single parity the higher the risk for multiple drive failure.

And then you won't be able to recover.

But I am not sure of the maximum in snapraid. I didn't even realize you could do 8.
You can safely go to 42 if you follow this guideline: http://www.snapraid.it/faq#howmanypar

I am using a 21x3 with no issues whatsoever.
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post #11483 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Problem is drives don't fail like that. For instance I recently removed around thirty 2TB Seagate drives from my three unRAID setups. THey had been in use for seven to nine years. In a WHS and then unRAIDs. I never had any issues with them. Then I have another dozen 2TB drives in my unRAIDs, that are just as old, no issues. I also have around sixteen 3TB Seagate drives. That have been in use for five to seven years. Again no issues. I have around half a dozen 4TB drives that have been in use for four to fives years. No issues.

And then most recently I added a couple of dozen Seagate 4TB NAS rated drives. The drives were manufactured in 2013 but were still new so hopefully they work as well.
I still have a few WD 2TB drives in use and those are eight to ten years old. Again no issues.
And all but a few of those 2TB and 3TB drives are not even NAS rated. Yet most of them have many years of power on hours with no problems.

I've used literally hundreds of drives at home over the last twenty years. Failures have been a rare occurrence. The last time I had a drive fail was a couple of years ago. A 2.5" 4TB Seagate SMR drive I had in a TiVo Bolt. But I have another one in another Bolt that has been fine for almost four years now. But those are also SMR drives and they are running 24/7.

I even have some drives around here from over twenty years ago, they never died. Even my expensive 20MB, yes 20MB drive, I installed in 1990 or so. IN a PC I purchased back in 1984(an IBM PC with 8088 processor) still works. Although why I keep that ancient PC around? I don't know?
I agree the assumptions were not good. I mean why would John buy 36TB of space when he only is using 4 per year? Why wouldn't he buy 24TBs of space, fill up two slots and then buy more space as he goes along?

Also assumes neither needs to upgrade their NAS.

I think his scenario is better if you lose one drive and read errors exist on the other drive, or two drives go down, or something happens to the NAS itself. He has a complete backup where as everyone else has to re-rip.
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post #11484 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 05:41 PM
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You can safely go to 42 if you follow this guideline: http://www.snapraid.it/faq#howmanypar

I am using a 21x3 with no issues whatsoever.
Thanks a lot.

According to the table I should have 2 parity drives for 8 data disks, and I can go to 14 with 2 parity.
I'm going to buy another one tonight.

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post #11485 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Twice the drives doesn't mean twice the price.
I'm not sure how you can say its not twice the price. 24TB of drives pretty much costs twice as much as 12TB of drives. I think it's more accurate to say that RAID 5 (or similar) requires 1 extra drive so you that evens out the comparison somewhat. Because to get 20TB of space in RAID, I need 3 drives (2x10 + 1x10) (roughly $750). But under your plan, I'd buy 2 drives (2x10) plus 5 backup drives (for a total of $1000). So we are looking at 33% more, not 100% more.

However, after that, you're buying 1 for 1. For NAS, I buy another 10TB drive for $250. I have 30TB total. At that time I have to buy another 3 drives for $300.

Quote:
Also the extra cost doesn't come all at once.
I realize I don't have to buy all the backups at once. I would buy only what I need as I need it and as time progresses the drives will be bigger and less expensive (or that I'll break up the expense over more time making it easier to afford).


I think I just need to see how well Synology handles 4 different volumes.
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
On a different note, how many drives can be serviced/protected by a single parity drive. I understand that 1 parity drive protects against a single drive failure -- that's not what I'm asking. I currently have 8 drives protected by a single parity drive in SnapRAID. How many more drives could I add.
The snapraid FAQ has a little table of recommended parity discs: http://www.snapraid.it/faq#howmanypar

One of the commands (snapraid smart?) gives the odds on losing data based on how many parity discs and how often you run scrub.

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post #11487 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 05:52 PM
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Thanks a lot.

According to the table I should have 2 parity drives for 8 data disks, and I can go to 14 with 2 parity.
I'm going to buy another one tonight.
Two parity drives for 8 data drives is good. I think the safe ratio is 7:1 on the low end. I have four 24-bay boxes and all are set up as 21x3.

BTW, never ever use shingled drives as parity drives. You will hate life as they are dead slow. They are fine for data but not parity.
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post #11488 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by whiteboy714 View Post
My vote goes to snapraid+drive pool. Allows redundancy and puts all my drives into one pool. Once I got beyond one drive for my movies folder having them in multiple was a pain. Now it is all in one place and runs on windows 10. For some this is a weakness, but for me the computer does other things as well so it opens it up to more usages.
This is a bit of a concern for me. But I'm assuming modern software is capable of amalgamating movies from multiple volumes.

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Well, let's see how much that tiered Internet service is going to cost when you start streaming higher bitrate video and HD audio and gobble bandwidth.
LOL. I remember how excited I was to install a 56K modem in my system. How much did we pay for DSL when it came out after that? I mean that was blazing at the time. $50 a month? Right now GIG speed is $105 a month. Is that more expensive than buying discs and maintaining your own server? I mean that's only $40 per month more than I pay now getting almost half that speed.
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post #11489 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 06:17 PM
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I agree the assumptions were not good. I mean why would John buy 36TB of space when he only is using 4 per year? Why wouldn't he buy 24TBs of space, fill up two slots and then buy more space as he goes along?

Also assumes neither needs to upgrade their NAS.

I think his scenario is better if you lose one drive and read errors exist on the other drive, or two drives go down, or something happens to the NAS itself. He has a complete backup where as everyone else has to re-rip.
He actually bought 48TB but lost 1 drive to parity. He has to at least buy 3 drives to get RAID 5.

I agree upgrading a NAS would be tough to get offline redundancy and keep the cost low. It is much easier on the pocket over time and from the start. That's why my enclosure holds twelve drives. I will be at twice the average failure age when I have to replace a drive with a larger disk. I don't have to worry about upgrading the actual enclosure. It will take me 35 more years to fill 16TB x 12.
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post #11490 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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He actually bought 48TB but lost 1 drive to parity. He has to at least buy 3 drives to get RAID 5.
Except he's smarter than that and used a proprietary RAID like Synology which only requires 2 discs to start and allows varying size discs.

Quote:
I agree upgrading a NAS would be tough to get offline redundancy and keep the cost low. It is much easier on the pocket over time and from the start. That's why my enclosure holds twelve drives. I will be at twice the average failure age when I have to replace a drive with a larger disk. I don't have to worry about upgrading the actual enclosure. It will take me 35 more years to fill 16TB x 12.
A guy with your industrial capabilities needs this filled with NAS Pro drives.
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