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post #11491 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by agogley View Post
A guy with your industrial capabilities needs this filled with NAS Pro drives.
That little thing only supports 6Gbps transfer. Even my enclosure supports 12Gbps transfer.

Wonder how much it weights when full of drives.
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post #11492 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 11:15 PM
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BTW, never ever use shingled drives as parity drives. You will hate life as they are dead slow. They are fine for data but not parity.
No idea what a shingled drive is. Doesn't matter. I only use either Seagate Barracuda or WD Blue drives.

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post #11493 of 11572 Old 08-15-2019, 11:31 PM
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I think it's more accurate to say that RAID 5 (or similar) requires 1 extra drive so you that evens out the comparison somewhat. Because to get 20TB of space in RAID, I need 3 drives (2x10 + 1x10) (roughly $750).
RAID 5 hurts at the low end. Losing 1 out of 3 drives to parity is a big ouch. But if you followed the short discussion we just had about SnapRAID and parity vs. data drives, you see that 1 parity will service 4 data drives and 2 parity will service up to 14 data drives. Losing 2 out of 16 drives to parity is only a slight sting.

A real NAS like Synology is nice but is way overkill for media storage. As has been noted, the data doesn't change -- snapshot RAID is quite sufficient. Paying a hefty price for a NAS that does continuous RAID vs. a small PC running a disk farm with snapshot raid seems a waste. I would rather put the money towards more storage drives. That's my 2 cents.

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post #11494 of 11572 Old 08-16-2019, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Paying a hefty price for a NAS that does continuous RAID vs. a small PC running a disk farm with snapshot raid seems a waste. I would rather put the money towards more storage drives. That's my 2 cents.
There are no small PC's running a disk farm. They're all mid-towers which are a significantly larger footprint. So if you are like me, and want a very small footprint where the server can be hidden with other electronics or put on a shelf, then buying a true NAS is the better option. The biggest computer I ever allowed in my house was a Shuttle I built myself.

My home only has two ethernet jacks in the whole house. And they must hire idiots to build out the cabinet where all the lines run in. They install these medal cabinets where ethernet and cable lines run into, so you have to put your cable modem there. But there's hardly room much less for my router. Then two lines run out to the two spaces where TVs can be mounted. So my NAS either has to sit on the shelf with my router, modem, and KEVO (which would be pushing the weight) or it has to reside near the TVs or I have to run it off WIFI. Running it off WIFI is now becoming increasingly attractive because I just had lightning hit my house. It ran through the cable line, fried my modem, then my router, then my switch. Fortunately stopped there. It's also possible it ran through cable to my cablebox (which was fine) and then to my switch and then to my soundbar and TV, frying the HDMI ports.

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RAID 5 hurts at the low end. Losing 1 out of 3 drives to parity is a big ouch. But if you followed the short discussion we just had about SnapRAID and parity vs. data drives, you see that 1 parity will service 4 data drives and 2 parity will service up to 14 data drives. Losing 2 out of 16 drives to parity is only a slight sting.
How does SnapRAID not have the same ouch factor? You still use the same number of drives for redundancy. You're just advocating I start with 4 drives rather than 2. We can debate the merits of SnapRAID over RAID5/6 in terms of performance and reliability. I will simply concede the point because that's not my issue. But the cost seems to me to be essentially the same.

The real argument going on here is whether it makes sense to go JBOD with everything backed up to external drives or go with a RAID type arrangement (whether that be unRAID, SnapRAID, SHR, or RAID5/6.). IMO, the JBOD arrangement is the safest by far. No matter whats happens to a NAS under the JBOD arrangement, the drives can be completely restored in short order. However, IMO, the JBOD setup is also much more expensive despite claims to the contrary. The guy is also using WD NAS PRO series drives which are already twice as expensive as shucking drives from WD elements. Adding 4TB backup drives then makes that cost about 3 times as much as an SHR arrangement. Now, he's also arguing that the cost is amortized over many years as you acquire drives and the necessary backups over time so that it doesn't feel as expensive. My decision now is whether the safety that provides is worth the expense or whether a RAID setup (in my case SHR) provides adequate safety for my needs.

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post #11495 of 11572 Old 08-16-2019, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jasonkennethrose View Post
That little thing only supports 6Gbps transfer. Even my enclosure supports 12Gbps transfer.

Wonder how much it weights when full of drives.
What hard drives have 12Gbps transfer?

It weights 65lbs Gross it says. I think that means fully loaded. Just put it in your wife's closet. She wont mind.
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post #11496 of 11572 Old 08-16-2019, 07:49 AM
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Anyone else tiring of this side trip? 🙂

Human Nature 101 - if one can afford a particular item, then one is more likely to develop a rationale that justifies it regardless of how illogical and overkill everyone else thinks it is.

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However, IMO, the JBOD setup is also much more expensive despite claims to the contrary. The guy is also using WD NAS PRO series drives which are already twice as expensive as shucking drives from WD elements. Adding 4TB backup drives then makes that cost about 3 times as much as an SHR arrangement. Now, he's also arguing that the cost is amortized.

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post #11497 of 11572 Old 08-16-2019, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Anyone else tiring of this side trip?
What are the best Handbrake settings? I want to compress 40TB worth of Blu-ray rips so they all fit on a single 16GB thumb drive without losing any picture quality.
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post #11498 of 11572 Old 08-16-2019, 08:30 AM
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What are the best Handbrake settings? I want to compress 40TB worth of Blu-ray rips so they all fit on a single 16GB thumb drive without losing any picture quality.
LOL. I needed a good laugh this morning.

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post #11499 of 11572 Old 08-16-2019, 10:04 AM
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No idea what a shingled drive is. Doesn't matter. I only use either Seagate Barracuda or WD Blue drives.
Some Seagate Barracuda drives are shingled (or SMR = shingled magnetic recording). If you get a SMR drive they will be absolutely horrible for parity drives as they will come to a screeching halt after about 20-30GB. I am talking about 5-10MB/s slow. Use them only for data drives.

WD has not implemented SMR in any drives that I have seen (I could be lucky) but they are planning on releasing some as the capacity gets higher and there is no option but to use SMR.
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post #11500 of 11572 Old 08-16-2019, 11:52 PM
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What are the best Handbrake settings? I want to compress 40TB worth of Blu-ray rips so they all fit on a single 16GB thumb drive without losing any picture quality.

Ha! 40TB is the equivalent of 1,000 40GB dual layered BR movies... You would have to reduce the files down to about 600MB each to fit everything... That would be about 480P or 720P with a lot of degradation. You could get about four videos on a 16GB thumb drive in HD...
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post #11501 of 11572 Old 08-17-2019, 05:53 AM
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@Jon S , he was joking ...
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post #11502 of 11572 Old 08-17-2019, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone else tiring of this side trip? 🙂
This thread hasn't been this exciting since we debated the merits of MKV over other formats on page 97. And We all know you don't have anything better to do.
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post #11503 of 11572 Old 08-18-2019, 05:45 AM
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True, all of it. And it’s been good to hear from the usual suspects and get their take.

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post #11504 of 11572 Old 08-18-2019, 11:14 AM
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Just to weigh in on the Raid-x vs JBOD vs anything else, I ended up going with JBOD for a couple of reasons. Like most people, I didn't start off with a NAS. When I got up to 4 different external drives (all having to be plugged in) I decided to go the NAS route and use those externals as backups. I keep them in a different room and just plug them in when I want to back up or restore anything. So far, I've only added one additional drive, and at this point I'm slowing down on how much more I'll be ripping anyway...there's only so many hours in a lifetime to watch this stuff anyway.
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post #11505 of 11572 Old 08-18-2019, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to weigh in on the Raid-x vs JBOD vs anything else, I ended up going with JBOD for a couple of reasons. Like most people, I didn't start off with a NAS. When I got up to 4 different external drives (all having to be plugged in) I decided to go the NAS route and use those externals as backups. I keep them in a different room and just plug them in when I want to back up or restore anything. So far, I've only added one additional drive, and at this point I'm slowing down on how much more I'll be ripping anyway...there's only so many hours in a lifetime to watch this stuff anyway.
Yeah, you start to realize you have more movies than you could ever watch. But when you want a particular movie, it's there.

I just find most of the time I want to watch a movie in a HT environment. Then I'll never watch it again. Then there are movies I watch over again but often on a mobile device at the gym or something during my 16 mile run. But I have found myself watching a movie with guests over where the movie wasn't immediately available to me on Amazon Prime (and I don't have Netflix). But overall, this is why I think subscription services will kill the disc and the NAS.

The JBOV vs everything else calculation I think is largely dependent on the size of storage you're looking at. I'm looking at 4 bays and 30 TB. Some of these guys I suspect are at 100+ TB.

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post #11506 of 11572 Old 08-18-2019, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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For those using JBOD, what software are you using to sort and play your media? I'm looking at PLEX and EMBRY and trying to figure out how it manages media from multiple volumes on a single NAS (the JBOD solution). I want all my media to appear in one spot. In Zappiti, I would point the software to the various locations and it would simply create the necessary entries and play the media from the proper location without the user having to browse each volume independently (in other words everything appeared in my library and the location was invisible to the user).
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JRiver Media Center here.

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post #11508 of 11572 Old 08-18-2019, 08:00 PM
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For those using JBOD, what software are you using to sort and play your media? I'm looking at PLEX and EMBRY and trying to figure out how it manages media from multiple volumes on a single NAS (the JBOD solution). I want all my media to appear in one spot. In Zappiti, I would point the software to the various locations and it would simply create the necessary entries and play the media from the proper location without the user having to browse each volume independently (in other words everything appeared in my library and the location was invisible to the user).
Here we go again.

Ding ding ding.

Welcome to round two.

What is your playback device/s?
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post #11509 of 11572 Old 08-18-2019, 08:14 PM
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Noob question. Is there a good free audio ripping software to rip DVD concerts to individual tracks? Preferably to FLAC. Multichannel if thats possible. And then the same thing for Bluray.

I've tried VLC but its labor intensive and can only rip individual tracks manually (unless I'm doing something wrong)
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post #11510 of 11572 Old 08-18-2019, 09:07 PM
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If your ripping audio only discs, this likely wouldn’t the correct thread. But I’d guess foobar2000. Maybe some titles will need DVD Extractor and/or DVD Explorer? It’s been a while since I ripped my DVD-As.

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post #11511 of 11572 Old 08-18-2019, 10:22 PM
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There are no small PC's running a disk farm. They're all mid-towers which are a significantly larger footprint.
Huh? You don't need a tower. I have a small i3 Shuttle running Win-10 as the server with a couple 4-bay MediaSonic eSATA enclosures housing the 8 data drives and a 2-bay USB enclosure housing the 2 parity drives. Whole thing is very compact and fits under a desk in my study. It's headless and accessed remotely using TeamViewer.

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How does SnapRAID not have the same ouch factor? You still use the same number of drives for redundancy. You're just advocating I start with 4 drives rather than 2 . . .The real argument going on here is whether it makes sense to go JBOD with everything backed up to external drives or go with a RAID type arrangement (whether that be unRAID, SnapRAID, SHR, or RAID5/6.).
You misinterpreted, I'm not arguing against the choice of RAID. SnapRAID is effectively RAID 5 or 6 (without striping) and my point was that with RAID 6 you only need 2 parity disks to protect 14 data disks vs. buying an equal amount of storage to create 1:1 mirrors of the whole array (RAID 1). What I was pointing out was that the ouch factor with RAID 5/6 decreases as the number of disks in the array increases. With SnapRaid running on a server disk farm I am running a JBOD array with RAID 6 -- it's not an either/or.

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post #11512 of 11572 Old 08-18-2019, 10:44 PM
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If your ripping audio only discs, this likely wouldn’t the correct thread. But I’d guess foobar2000. Maybe some titles will need DVD Extractor and/or DVD Explorer? It’s been a while since I ripped my DVD-As.
I'm referring to DVD Video, ripping the audio track only from concerts to individual song/files. And then the same thing for Bluray concert discs.
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post #11513 of 11572 Old 08-19-2019, 07:15 AM
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You misinterpreted, I'm not arguing against the choice of RAID. SnapRAID is effectively RAID 5 or 6 (without striping) and my point was that with RAID 6 you only need 2 parity disks to protect 14 data disks vs. buying an equal amount of storage to create 1:1 mirrors of the whole array (RAID 1). What I was pointing out was that the ouch factor with RAID 5/6 decreases as the number of disks in the array increases. With SnapRaid running on a server disk farm I am running a JBOD array with RAID 6 -- it's not an either/or.
You are either running JBOD or RAID 6.

JBOD is what is stands for "Just a Bunch Of Disks". Usually the disks are individual volumes but they can be spanned into a single volume. No parity or redundancy.

There are a few RAID 6 variants but basically you are taking the dedicated parity drive of RAID 5 and spreading it across the entire array in a second parity block.

RAID 0-6 are RAID arrays. Redundant Array of Inexpensive/Independent Disks (Uses data blocks)
JBOD, MAID, and BIG/SPAN are not.
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post #11514 of 11572 Old 08-19-2019, 07:51 AM
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You are either running JBOD or RAID 6.

JBOD is what is stands for "Just a Bunch Of Disks". Usually the disks are individual volumes but they can be spanned into a single volume. No parity or redundancy.

There are a few RAID 6 variants but basically you are taking the dedicated parity drive of RAID 5 and spreading it across the entire array in a second parity block.

RAID 0-6 are RAID arrays. Redundant Array of Inexpensive/Independent Disks (Uses data blocks)
JBOD, MAID, and BIG/SPAN are not.
He is running jbod with 2 parity discs. That is not the same as raid 6, but for his needs it is "equivalent" to raid 6 - he was likely just generalizing for non-tech people.
Depending on the individual requirements, snapraid could be worse/equal/better than the "corresponding" raid equivalent.

Edit: actually, re-reading his post I can see that he said "effectively(without striping)" , which is pretty much spot on...
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post #11515 of 11572 Old 08-19-2019, 07:57 AM
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He is running jbod with 2 parity discs. That is not the same as raid 6, but for his needs it is "equivalent" to raid 6 - he was likely just generalizing for non-tech people.
Depending on the individual requirements, snapraid could be worse/equal/better than the "corresponding" raid equivalent.

Edit: actually, re-reading his post I can see that he said "effectively(without striping)" , which is pretty much spot on...
Please read my second sentence. Using incorrect terms is not making the non-tech people any smarter. It just confuses people and then they start using the terms incorrectly. JBOD and parity do not exist together.
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What are the best Handbrake settings? I want to compress 40TB worth of Blu-ray rips so they all fit on a single 16GB thumb drive without losing any picture quality.
Personally, I'd do a resolution of about 16x9.

A 1.6kb/s bitrate would also be good.
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post #11517 of 11572 Old 08-19-2019, 08:12 AM
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Please read my second sentence. Using incorrect terms is not making the non-tech people any smarter. It just confuses people and then they start using the terms incorrectly. JBOD and parity do not exist together.
I have just read your second sentence - it is absolutely correct.

As to what terms we should and shouldn't use and why/when - that is a matter of opinion.

Now, if you want to learn how you can have jbod with parity, you should read up on snapraid.
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post #11518 of 11572 Old 08-19-2019, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by agogley View Post
For those using JBOD, what software are you using to sort and play your media? I'm looking at PLEX and EMBRY and trying to figure out how it manages media from multiple volumes on a single NAS (the JBOD solution). I want all my media to appear in one spot. In Zappiti, I would point the software to the various locations and it would simply create the necessary entries and play the media from the proper location without the user having to browse each volume independently (in other words everything appeared in my library and the location was invisible to the user).
I've been using Kodi on my Fire Stick and it works well. Sorts everything where I want it so I'm happy.

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post #11519 of 11572 Old 08-19-2019, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jasonkennethrose View Post
JBOD and parity do not exist together.
Can you please explain WHAT you mean by this. SnapRAID is exactly that...JBOD AND parity.
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post #11520 of 11572 Old 08-19-2019, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkennethrose View Post
Please read my second sentence. Using incorrect terms is not making the non-tech people any smarter. It just confuses people and then they start using the terms incorrectly. JBOD and parity do not exist together.
We can call it what you want, I'm not trying to confuse people. Running software RAID (i.e. SnapRAID) on a disk farm server is, for lack of a better term, "soft" RAID. The array is JBOD; the disks are independently formatted and addressed (although you could pool the catalogs of several disks); the disks do not have to be the same size; drives can be added or removed from the array at will; drives can contain content when added to the array and retain content when removed; parity disk(s) protect the data by enabling the rebuild of a failed array disk; multiple parity disks protect against multiple simultaneous failures. Maybe it is not RAID in the strictest sense that hardware RAID is but it works the same as far as data protection. We can call SnapRAID a disk backup program if you think that is less confusing.

Nice thing about any snapshot software RAID solution is that it is run on demand and therefore has zero overhead. This is absolutely perfect for media storage -- I only run it after I have added some media to the array. Like others I have filled HDD's in the array that rarely alter their content so after the initial parity generation it completes very quickly.
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Last edited by Kelson; 08-19-2019 at 09:11 AM.
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