Giving Up on Blu-Ray: Why I Switched to The Cloud - Page 22 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #631 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
So then, disconnect your internet and tell us all how well an average streaming evening goes for you.

Whether or not you use that connection for other things is irrelevant. Point of FACT. You can not stream without a reliable internet connection. You therefore MUST work that into your overall streaming costs. If you wish to lie to yourself and rationalize this away then hey... knock yourself out... it doesn't bother me at all.
Ugh. I suspect you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Fine, Netflix costs whatever you say it costs. Happy?

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post #632 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
So then, disconnect your internet and tell us all how well an average streaming evening goes for you.

Whether or not you use that connection for other things is irrelevant. Point of FACT. You can not stream without a reliable internet connection. You therefore MUST work that into your overall streaming costs. If you wish to lie to yourself and rationalize this away then hey... knock yourself out... it doesn't bother me at all.
In this silly thread, the most important thing you might argue in this regard is what is the delta between the higher speed you might pay for because you want to stream, vs the more moderate bandwidth you might use if you didn't stream. But really, lots of people have fast connections for lots of reasons (I have a 100 Mbps connection and do very little streaming) So factoring the cost in for the pipe is marginally valid since you're paying for it (or some good chunk of it) anyway
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post #633 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Philnick View Post
I have a question for those using "phantom center channel" setups.

What do you do when you watch a movie that uses only the front center channel? They're rare, but not non-existent, Examples include the Blu-ray of the Errol Flynn Adventures of Robin Hood, and the DVD of the original Mel Brooks movie The Producers (the one with Zero Mostel & Gene Wilder).

Will a "phantom center channel" rig redirect sound sent to the center channel to front left and right?
Yes, a Phantom Center just means the center channel is remixed to the L/R front speakers at -3dB per channel. It's the same as listening to a mono recording through a 2-channel stereo.
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post #634 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
In this silly thread, the most important thing you might argue in this regard is what is the delta between the higher speed you might pay for because you want to stream, vs the more moderate bandwidth you might use if you didn't stream. But really, lots of people have fast connections for lots of reasons (I have a 100 Mbps connection and do very little streaming) So factoring the cost in for the pipe is marginally valid since you're paying for it (or some good chunk of it) anyway
This is exactly how it works. Thank you!

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post #635 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 02:58 PM
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I had this box and I think that this box was doing a better job.
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post #636 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 03:44 PM
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Well, check this out...

I asked Vudu what the peak bitrate was for a 3D HDX movie. The first rep could not answer, so I asked that a product specialist comment. The reply I got will probably freak out some people here, but I'm just going to copy-and-paste it...

"We have no concrete bit rate for HDX movies but the average is 40 Mbps. If you have any other questions please feel free to contact us."

Obviously this will require verification, it's the first time I've heard of Vudu using a bitrate that high. I specifically mentioned it was a press inquiry. It's not clear if the answer is specific to 3D HDX, last time I measured regular HDX (2D) it averaged 9 Mbps.

However, if Vudu no longer places specific restrictions on bitrate (9 Mbps average with 20 Mbps peaks), that could explain the incremental increase in overall quality that I've noticed.
If avg bit rate for 3d is 40, one can infer the avg bitrate for 2D is 20, and a fair assumed max/min is 10/30.

It seems that a majority of avs members posted that they have (or have access to) 15Mbps or less. So how are they averaging 40Mbps for 3d (or an approximate 20Mbps for 2d)?


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post #637 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pioneer_Elte View Post
If avg bit rate for 3d is 40, one can infer the avg nitrate for 2D is 20, and a fair assumed max/min is 10/30.

It seems that a majority of avs members posted that they have (or have access to) 15Mbps or less. So how are they averaging 40Mbps for 3d (or an approximate 20Mbps for 2d)?
I think the rep was being inaccurate and I'm looking for a real answer; the main issue is 3D HDX requires my Blu-ray player, it doesn't work on my PC, so I can't use my usual bandwidth meter. My next best bet is to get an answer from a Vudu software engineer.

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post #638 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 03:52 PM
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Anybody know why although I have 37 Mbps sustained download but once I go through PS3 the download speed goes down to max of 16 Mbps?

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post #639 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I think the rep was being inaccurate and I'm looking for a real answer; the main issue is 3D HDX requires my Blu-ray player, it doesn't work on my PC, so I can't use my usual bandwidth meter. My next best bet is to get an answer from a Vudu software engineer.
On my player, if I press the display button on the remote, it shows the video format and bit rate (for 2D and 3D if watching 3D) and the audio format and bit rate.

Does your player do this? I don't use Vudu so I can't help on this one.

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post #640 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post
I have a question for those using "phantom center channel" setups.

What do you do when you watch a movie that uses only the front center channel? They're rare, but not non-existent, Examples include the Blu-ray of the Errol Flynn Adventures of Robin Hood, and the DVD of the original Mel Brooks movie The Producers (the one with Zero Mostel & Gene Wilder).

Will a "phantom center channel" rig redirect sound sent to the center channel to front left and right?

Yes, I hate it when they do that. I prefer a mono mix to be 2.0 rather than 1.0 center mono only.

It is very easy to simply use the remote on your AVR and set the decode to 2 channel stereo, and everything goes to the R & L speakers. Why dick with the phantom center mode if you have a full system.

I also tend to try those 1.0 tracks one one of the AVR's Cinema modes. Some 1.0 movies sound better in a Cineama mode rather than 2 channel.
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post #641 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
Yes, I hate it when they do that. I prefer a mono mix to be 2.0 rather than 1.0 center mono only.

It is very easy to simply use the remote on your AVR and set the decode to 2 channel stereo, and everything goes to the R & L speakers. Why dick with the phantom center mode if you have a full system.

I also tend to try those 1.0 tracks one one of the AVR's Cinema modes. Some 1.0 movies sound better in a Cineama mode rather than 2 channel.
As a 5.1 analog hookup guy, I've connected FL and FR into both the 5.1 multichannel input and the "DVD" stereo input with a pair of Y-adapters. This lets me send stereo (2.0) disks into the AVR's stereo modes (just fronts or fronts+surrounds - what I think of as "car stereo" mode) or - when the mix was done with good phase coherence - into the AVR's DTS Neo:6 "Music" or "Cinema" matrix derivation modes (similar to Dolby ProLogic but subtler feeling). With a 1.0 soundtrack what any of those choices will give you is silence - the only option is to go back to the 5.1 multichannel input and listen to the center channel speaker!

The only way I could do what you're suggesting is to hook up an optical or coaxial connection (my AVR is pre-HDMI) and use Dolby Digital - I'll stick with lossless analog from the center channel!


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post #642 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 06:59 PM
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I do not have an HDMI AVR either. However, I do have an HDMI TV.

I run HDMI from Bluray player to HDMI in TV. I run optical audio from TV to AVR. I also run audio optical from Bluray player to AVR audio in.

Off air TV audio (multi channel ATSC DD) is via optical to AVR. Same audio with streaming via the internal internet TV connection.

DVD audio is either via TV or Bluray player to AVR. Both work the same as encoded on disk.

Bluray audio is via optical to AVR under normal conditions. Bluray audio via TV optical is limited to 2 channel, so I do not use that output except for 1.0 or 2.0 program material. Bluray 1.0 material comes out as 2.0 TV audio (as I recall). I don't recall what happens with 2.1 material on the optical TV output.


The audio Cinema audio modes that I try are extra audio modes, perhaps specific to Sony AVRs. They are not the movie, music and game modes that are part of the Dolby Prologic and DTS Neo decoders.


Anyhow, my AVR's remote control allows me to select the audio mode that I want to use without having to fiddle with turning the center channel off and on in the setup menu.
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post #643 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 07:44 PM
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Ugh. I suspect you are arguing for the sake of arguing.
No.
In a round about way I'm merely pointing out that you're not looking at this from an objective POV.

You have your mind set on the idea that steaming for whatever reason is a better deal for you and your willing to twist what ever logic is involved your way to enforce that ideology.

You can't watch tv without a tv so you have to factor a tv into the price of watching tv. You can't drive a car without tires so you have to factor in the price of tires when you drive a car. Not only is that fact, but it's also logic. I don't stream at my cabin because all I have up there is dial up and the cost to get some kind of reasonable connection for streaming there would be too high In other words I am factoring in the cost of the connection for streaming there (as should be) and the cost is simply too high.
Whether you wish to admit it or not, your connection (and all the hardware required for that connection) must be in some way factored in as part of the overall streaming price because you can't have streaming without it. Someone thinking objectively (as opposed to trying to win something here) would agree with this.
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post #644 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 07:51 PM
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the most important thing you might argue in this regard is what is the delta between the higher speed you might pay for because you want to stream, vs the more moderate bandwidth you might use if you didn't stream.
And that difference regardless of how minor or major might be a legitimate way to factor in the price for streaming.... but the op won't even entertain this, and that's my point. The OP insists there is no factoring in at all.

THAT is silly.
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post #645 of 706 Old 06-20-2014, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
And that difference regardless of how minor or major might be a legitimate way to factor in the price for streaming.... but the op won't even entertain this, and that's my point. The OP insists there is no factoring in at all.

THAT is silly.
Because the issue is largely superfluous given a) the fact that most people that have access pay for sufficient bandwidth anyway and would do so anyway regardless if they streamed or not and b) the cost differential between a non-streaming service level and a streaming service level is so minor it is immaterial for the rare scenarios where someone will make the value judgement you suppose. Where I live, the minimal service level I could pay for is sufficient for streaming. So there is nothing cheaper short of DSL if it still exists, and I wouldn't do that anyway. And remember, I stream very little - i'm a blu ray guy...

By you accounts, you might as well factor in the cost of the house you're sitting in when streaming.

If you want to break the abacus out, take your annual cost of an internet service, (and the two year amortized cost of the router if you must), which are in use 365 days a year, 24 hours a day whether your streaming or taking a crap (in rare instances this is the same thing). Now estimate the number of hours a year you will stream a week/month/year, and calculated the percentage of that annual internet cost. While you're at it, factor in that while streaming, others may be reading email or browsing the web, so you might have to further divide the utilization cost basis.

While you do this, I will be in the bathroom as the Metemucil is kicking in.

I am having a very boring Friday night, as everyone can tell...
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post #646 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
And that difference regardless of how minor or major might be a legitimate way to factor in the price for streaming.... but the op won't even entertain this, and that's my point. The OP insists there is no factoring in at all.

THAT is silly.

The OP also considers "downloading" as being the same as being on the cloud (AKA streaming) as far as this thread is concerned.

How about the cost of storage and management for all of those movie downloads? How large is a typical downloaded Bluray equivalent movie file that is 2 hours in length? How long does it take to download the movie?

I wonder how many % of people rent by streaming (one time shot), how many people expect permanent rentals (VUDU) via streaming, and how many people download Bluray equivalent movies?
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post #647 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Because the issue is largely superfluous given a) the fact that most people that have access pay for sufficient bandwidth anyway and would do so anyway regardless if they streamed or not and b) the cost differential between a non-streaming service level and a streaming service level is so minor it is immaterial for the rare scenarios where someone will make the value judgement you suppose. Where I live, the minimal service level I could pay for is sufficient for streaming. So there is nothing cheaper short of DSL if it still exists, and I wouldn't do that anyway. And remember, I stream very little - i'm a blu ray guy...

By you accounts, you might as well factor in the cost of the house you're sitting in when streaming.

If you want to break the abacus out, take your annual cost of an internet service, (and the two year amortized cost of the router if you must), which are in use 365 days a year, 24 hours a day whether your streaming or taking a crap (in rare instances this is the same thing). Now estimate the number of hours a year you will stream a week/month/year, and calculated the percentage of that annual internet cost. While you're at it, factor in that while streaming, others may be reading email or browsing the web, so you might have to further divide the utilization cost basis.

While you do this, I will be in the bathroom as the Metemucil is kicking in.

I am having a very boring Friday night, as everyone can tell...

I still use DSL. Then again, I am not on cable!
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post #648 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
the fact that most people that have access pay for sufficient bandwidth anyway and would do so anyway regardless if they streamed or not
That is not a fact but rather an assumption which you shouldn't be making

And yes.... I'm on DSL as well.
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post #649 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
No.
In a round about way I'm merely pointing out that you're not looking at this from an objective POV.

You have your mind set on the idea that steaming for whatever reason is a better deal for you and your willing to twist what ever logic is involved your way to enforce that ideology.

You can't watch tv without a tv so you have to factor a tv into the price of watching tv. You can't drive a car without tires so you have to factor in the price of tires when you drive a car. Not only is that fact, but it's also logic. I don't stream at my cabin because all I have up there is dial up and the cost to get some kind of reasonable connection for streaming there would be too high In other words I am factoring in the cost of the connection for streaming there (as should be) and the cost is simply too high.
Whether you wish to admit it or not, your connection (and all the hardware required for that connection) must be in some way factored in as part of the overall streaming price because you can't have streaming without it. Someone thinking objectively (as opposed to trying to win something here) would agree with this.
Yes, I admit it! Stuff costs money.

I'd like to re-frame your analogy. What you are saying is not the same as factoring the price of a TV into watching TV. It's actually like saying that the cost of watching TV has to factor in your entire electric bill, instead of the fraction of overall electric usage that operating the TV consumes.

The thing is, I don't calculate exactly what percentage of my monthly computing and Internet budget goes to Netflix, based on the amount of time and data I use watching that service. That's because it really is chump change... I'm willing to take a guess though: Between $1 and $2 per month, beyond the actual price of Netflix. That's because I almost never, ever actually use Netflix to watch something. It's a tiny fragment of my total Internet use.

My point, which stands as fact, is that the cost of Netflix does not equal the cost of Netflix plus the cost of Internet service. It's only the cost of Netflix plus some percentage of the cost of Internet service, which varies according to individual use. And (going back to the point that started this derailment), if you watch a ton of Netflix then the per-hour cost of Netflix goes down but the overall percentage of the monthly Internet cost used to watch Netflix will be high. If you watch very little Netflix, then the percentage of the monthly Internet bill that Netflix takes up is very small.

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post #650 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 05:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
The OP also considers "downloading" as being the same as being on the cloud (AKA streaming) as far as this thread is concerned.

How about the cost of storage and management for all of those movie downloads? How large is a typical downloaded Bluray equivalent movie file that is 2 hours in length? How long does it take to download the movie?

I wonder how many % of people rent by streaming (one time shot), how many people expect permanent rentals (VUDU) via streaming, and how many people download Bluray equivalent movies?
Everything has a true cost. For watching a Blu-ray or a download, if you have a room where you keep AV gear, then the total cost of using it has to include the construction cost, rent/mortgage for those square feet, the cost of the gear, the "opportunity cost" of spending time on entertainment as opposed to productive pursuits, electricity, heat/AC, insurance, and etc. You may as well add the food you digest during that time to the "true" cost. Or rather, the true cost needs to include some small percentage of those aggregate costs, which is then added to the "cost" of each individual movie viewing. Same goes for streams and downloads... and everything you do in life!

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post #651 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 05:28 AM
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You're in a cabin, with a dial up modem..do you write manifestos?

Your scenario and choice is yours, but I would say is extremely uncommon for the segment we are talking about here - AVS members spend stupid money (at any gross amount relative to means) on non-necessity, pleasure purchases. Spending $15 p/m more to go from DSL to 15 Mbps cable, which benefits use in all ways, not just for streaming, seems like a no brainer for this crowd.
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post #652 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
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You're in a cabin, with a dial up modem..do you write manifestos?

Your scenario and choice is yours, but I would say is extremely uncommon for the segment we are talking about here - AVS members spend stupid money (at any gross amount relative to means) on non-necessity, pleasure purchases. Spending $15 p/m more to go from DSL to 15 Mbps cable, which benefits use in all ways, not just for streaming, seems like a no brainer for this crowd.
Yup! As I've mentioned in other posts, a robust broadband connection is essentially a must-have for high-end home theaters. It's also a popular option for people who simply own a TV and a Roku, or FireTV, or Apple TV, or a Blu-ray player, or a gaming console, or a HTPC, or who own a Smart TV—it's all about having more options, not restricting yourself to one delivery method (disc, download, stream) or another.

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post #653 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 05:51 AM
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And streaming does not mean you need the fastest fattest pipe your cable co offers.
As a fan of 4 in NYC we have a 15 meg line the smallest TWC offer. Streams 9Mb HDX no problem. That's what 60% of line capacity. Room for others to surf the internet etc.
The additional cost of bandwidth for streaming is 0

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post #654 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Everything has a true cost. For watching a Blu-ray or a download, if you have a room where you keep AV gear, then the total cost of using it has to include the construction cost, rent/mortgage for those square feet, the cost of the gear, the "opportunity cost" of spending time on entertainment as opposed to productive pursuits, electricity, heat/AC, insurance, and etc. You may as well add the food you digest during that time to the "true" cost. Or rather, the true cost needs to include some small percentage of those aggregate costs, which is then added to the "cost" of each individual movie viewing. Same goes for streams and downloads... and everything you do in life!


I just checked, my unlimited DSL internet connection costs $25.00 per month including all equipment charges, taxes and fees.

Now, as a comparison just how much does your internet connection cost including all equipment charges, taxes and fees?

This generalized nonsense about how little it costs for this, that and the other thing is meaningless opinion. How and why anyone uses their internet connection and why anyone needs it is of no concern.
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post #655 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I just checked, my unlimited DSL internet connection costs $25.00 per month including all equipment charges, taxes and fees.

Now, as a comparison just how much does your internet connection cost including all equipment charges, taxes and fees?

This generalized nonsense about how little it costs for this, that and the other thing is meaningless opinion. How and why anyone uses their internet connection and why anyone needs it is of no concern.
As noted before, my Internet connection makes me money, so it's an investment... not a cost. Fwiw, I pay about a hundred bucks/month for my service; I can't think of a single thing I pay for where I get more value for my money.

Plenty of meaningless opinions out there!

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post #656 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 06:09 AM
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DSL is almost gone from my area, truly. Verizon has a 29.99 per month plan, but the fine print says you must have Verizon phone service as well, which I'd imagine is $10-15 per month. So figure $40-50 per month, plus phone line taxes. I believe they also have a bare bones 1 Mbps service for $20, though this also requires a phone service, so figure $35 perhaps.

Cablevision offers 15 Mpbs download at $49 per month stand alone, 50 Mbps download for $5 more per month - $54.

I doubt anyone here would commit to option 2 or find the differential between Option 1 vs Cable as significant. But I suppose its possible...
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post #657 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
As noted before, my Internet connection makes me money, so it's an investment... not a cost. Fwiw, I pay about a hundred bucks/month for my service; I can't think of a single thing I pay for where I get more value for my money.

Plenty of meaningless opinions out there!


An internet connection is not an investment, it is an expense. Look at your tax return for proof that even you classify it as a business expense. If you do not pay your bill, you get no connection and no financial return.

So, I could buy about $75 worth of DVDs and Blurays a month forever to come out even with your internet expense.

Let me see, $75 per month = $900 per year or $9,000 over ten years. If I spend that $9,000 on DVDs or Blurays, at least I can get a return on that $9,000 expense.

When I die I can give away the DVD Bluray collection. You can not do the same with your VUDU collection - ZERO value.
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post #658 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 06:20 AM
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And for those on DSL. The Tivo and Amazon rental system where Amazon deposits a copy on the TiVo HDD works great. If you own they stay there Permanently and can be deleted and resent.

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post #659 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
Log into your account information, that's where it's located.
Ah, missed that one. My download speed is 9,856 Kbps (9.856 Mbps). Tried several HDX titles last night and all showed three green bars. From the site:

Minimum requirements for the VUDU streaming service are as follows:

  • SD (480p) requires 1000 kbps
  • HD (720p) requires 2250 kbps
  • HDX (1080p) requires 4500 kbps

So it appears VUDU now requires about half the speed they used to require. Some folks with certain brands/models of routers have software that will allow them to see the data rate through the router and sometime back they showed charts where HDX streams were in the 9 Mbps range. That was before eyeIO came on the scene.

At any rate claiming HDX uses 40 Mbps is pretty , perhaps the person meant to say 4 Mbps.
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post #660 of 706 Old 06-21-2014, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
An internet connection is not an investment, it is an expense. Look at your tax return for proof that even you classify it as a business expense. If you do not pay your bill, you get no connection and no financial return.

So, I could buy about $75 worth of DVDs and Blurays a month forever to come out even with your internet expense.

Let me see, $75 per month = $900 per year or $9,000 over ten years. If I spend that $9,000 on DVDs or Blurays, at least I can get a return on that $9,000 expense.

When I die I can give away the DVD Bluray collection. You can not do the same with your VUDU collection - ZERO value.
Yeah, but I'm dead! lol.

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