NVIDIA Shield (Android TV set-top box) - Page 349 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10441 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
I have no idea what we are looking at - those images look 99% identical to me


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If you look at the top corner of the screen regarding the red background, you will see noticeable color banding. Obviously these pics were taken with my Phone, but the banding is much noticeable in person.

Watching the same content using the Netflix Add-on for Kodi, or even the Native App on my Sony TV, the color banding is diminished.

If I manually reproduce the settings such as, setting the display to 24p/Cinema Home while watching the Shield, the banding is still pronounced.

Adjusting display resolution, refresh rate, colorspace settings on the TV, or Chroma settings on the Shield, will still produce Banding using the Native Netflix app for the Shield.

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post #10442 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groove93 View Post
One of the major reasons why I prefer the Netflix add-on for Kodi compared to the Shield's native Netflix App



This is The Last Jedi using the Netflix Add-on for Kodi. Notice the red background.


This is The Last Jedi using the native Netflix app. Again, notice the red background.


It's not just about Atmos, but image quality as well. Refresh rate adjustment, resolution adjustment, as well regarding the Netflix Add-on for Kodi
other than the color banding the native Netflix looks noticeably better, it's probably your camera though...
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post #10443 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 03:25 PM
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Amazon prime - getting insufficient bandwidth. All was working fine until last friday. No network changes. the SHield is hard wired. My ISP is 50up/50down. All other apps(netflix, youtube, etc) work fine. This is also happening on my Roku. Anyone else having issues? Is there a fix? Is it an Android based issue?



If I play it off my PC(wired) or my phone(wireless) I have no issues.

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post #10444 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post
other than the color banding the native Netflix looks noticeably better
Trust me, it's not. Those are static Phone pics. The Native app does not switch the display to 1080p/24/Cinema Home like the Addon for Kodi. Therefore, watching a video as a whole, you will see differences in Shadow Detail, and clarity between the native app and the Add-on for Kodi.

To be honest, I was satisfied with the video quality of the Native app on the Shield and that's mainly because I had nothing else to really compare it with other than my TV's Netflix app. But the performance of the Oreo interface on the TV is a joke compared to the Shield. When I started playing around with the Add-on for Kodi, I began to see the differences in picture quality.

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post #10445 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cburbs View Post
Amazon prime - getting insufficient bandwidth. All was working fine until last friday. No network changes. the SHield is hard wired. My ISP is 50up/50down. All other apps(netflix, youtube, etc) work fine. This is also happening on my Roku. Anyone else having issues? Is there a fix? Is it an Android based issue?



If I play it off my PC(wired) or my phone(wireless) I have no issues.
I had a problem with Netflix several years ago, and after I complained to my state AG office, my ISP finally did an investigation. They discovered that something outside their network was throttling my Netflix feed, but nothing else. Since it was outside their network, there was nothing they could do to help. It finally went away after several more months. Your Roku isn't Android, so it's not a common issue between the two. But services like Netflix and Amazon stream to different devices with different servers, so what impacts one device (or two in your case) might not impact other devices on the same network. It might be something you just have to give them a little time to resolve.

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post #10446 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post
other than the color banding the native Netflix looks noticeably better, it's probably your camera though...
I agree with you. It seems more detail = noticeable banding. Less detail = masked banding.

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post #10447 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groove93 View Post
Trust me, it's not. Those are static Phone pics. The Native app does not switch the display to 1080p/24/Cinema Home like the Addon for Kodi. Therefore, watching a video as a whole, you will see differences in Shadow Detail, and clarity between the native app and the Add-on for Kodi.

To be honest, I was satisfied with the video quality of the Native app on the Shield and that's mainly because I had nothing else to really compare it with other than my TV's Netflix app. But the performance of the Oreo interface on the TV is a joke compared to the Shield. When I started playing around with the Add-on for Kodi, I began to see the differences in picture quality.
How do you add Netflix to Kodi? when I tried it basically pointed to and opened the existing Netflix app, same with Plex, do you have to side load? Before it was simple now with V18 things changed.

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post #10448 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 03:50 PM
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https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=329767

Just follow the instructions and read the forum.

Take note that display settings, lighting, and environments are different for every user, so results regarding picture and audio quality may vary.
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post #10449 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psuKinger View Post
I might be oversimplying or missing some key underlying point, but here's the way I think about it:
- Whenever possible, I like to have my Source devices (like a Shield) output the "native" content specs (1080p vs. 2160p, HDR vs. SDR, etc). So I have the advanced colorimetry settings on so that Shield bounces from HDR to SDR output as appropriate, and I have Framerate switching settings enabled in apps like Plex that support it to get me from 60 Hz to 24 Hz, etc.


The only "native 12-bit-color content" I know of is Dolby Vision content, which the Shield doesn't support... so isn't the only thing that's going to happen here (unless I'm missing something big, in which case this is a great opportunity for me to learn...) is you access some HDR10 content via an app like Netflix/Amazon/Plex/Kodi, which contains (natively) 10-bit color info, and the Shield is going to upsample/upscale/upconvert (whatever) that to 12-bit color and output that to the TV? I'm not sure I appreciate the value to having the shield dial HDR10 content up to 12-bit color... unless, as you ended there, your use-case is just different than mine and you do something I don't know about/understand...
The issue would be if you are outputting 4:2:0, hdmi spec only supports that at 60hz, not 24hz.

Unless the shield automatically switches to 12 bit at 24hz, but as mark swift has noted with his vertex, some machines can do some weird internal processing in different cases, even though the shield does output 12 bit 4:2:2 properly with no banding, i am unsure what it would be doing internally if you had it set to 4:2:0 10 bit and attempted to play 24hz content which is not supported at 4:2:0 10 bit, only 60 hz is.
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post #10450 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
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It's a little fuzzy, I have seen charts that state that 4k 60hz 4:2:2 12 bit requires 20gbps, but I have seen charts that say it is supported at 18gbps. The charts that show it is supported at 18gbps are ambiguous though, showing that 50/60hz is supported, and from what I have seen, 50hz is supported at 12 bit 4:2:2, not 60hz. I honestly don't know though.

If you have 12 bit content and a display that supports 12bit color, then it would make sense to run at 12 bit 4:2:2, assuming it is supported at 18gbps at 60hz. I have nothing to gain from it, and I am unaware of any 12bit displays, and in HDMI 2.0b, 10 bit is 4:2:0 by specification. (I don't get the option for 12 bit 4:2:2 60hz 4k on my shield with my JVC RS2000 projector as the display). But any setting that limits you to 30 or 24 hz is going to be a problem for some apps because they cannot make the shield go to a higher framerate, only lower. Avoid that and you are fine.


Ok interesting, does not sound like you have the option for 12 bit 4:2:2, the reason for it however is 10 bit 4:2:0 according to spec is only supported at 60hz, while 4:2:2 12 bit is supported at both 60hz and 24hz, and is free of banding and it was also confirmed using a vertex it does not internally down sample to 8 bit like some other realtek players do before outputting the signal. Sounds like you dont have the option or if bandwidth is a concern or you value 60hz hdr content (I cant say I have watched any) it makes more sense for you. Everyone has different uses. For me and discussing with others 12 bit 4:2:2 is the way to go since its supported at 60 and 24 fps and is free of banding as long as you dont run into bandwidth limitations.
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post #10451 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groove93 View Post
One of the major reasons why I prefer the Netflix add-on for Kodi compared to the Shield's native Netflix App



This is The Last Jedi using the Netflix Add-on for Kodi. Notice the red background.


This is The Last Jedi using the native Netflix app. Again, notice the red background.


It's not just about Atmos, but image quality as well. Refresh rate adjustment, resolution adjustment, as well regarding the Netflix Add-on for Kodi
Those two pictures look like DVD vs BD. Are we just going to ignore the fact that the Kodi add on looks like its half the resolution? Also the colors look pushed on the Kodi addon. I don't notice these problems when I run the addon, but I just installed it a few days ago and haven't watched much. As far as those photos go, the native app looks hilariously better. I can't fathom how anyone can think otherwise.

If it's the camera, why post them? Lock the exposure on the phone and just take a photo of each without changing anything. If they look different, then there is some issue with color space/resoution/etc making them look different.

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post #10452 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 07:29 PM
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I guess I should have invited everyone to my house to look at the difference, but nevermind...............
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post #10453 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groove93 View Post
Trust me, it's not. Those are static Phone pics. The Native app does not switch the display to 1080p/24/Cinema Home like the Addon for Kodi. Therefore, watching a video as a whole, you will see differences in Shadow Detail, and clarity between the native app and the Add-on for Kodi.

To be honest, I was satisfied with the video quality of the Native app on the Shield and that's mainly because I had nothing else to really compare it with other than my TV's Netflix app. But the performance of the Oreo interface on the TV is a joke compared to the Shield. When I started playing around with the Add-on for Kodi, I began to see the differences in picture quality.
Can you provide a time stamp/reference for the clip you used to show the color banding you are seeing with the native NetFlix app on the Shield? I have 2 Shields, one on a LG OLED65B7A and one on a Optoma UHZ65 4k HDR laser projector. I’m willing to look at both to see if I can reproduce the issue on that movie in that specific scene. If it’s reproducible then it’s an issue with the NetFlix app on the Shield. If not, well then it could be caused by lots of things...

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post #10454 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 08:12 PM
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Can you provide a time stamp/reference for the clip you used to show the color banding you are seeing with the native NetFlix app on the Shield? I have 2 Shields, one on a LG OLED65B7A and one on a Optoma UHZ65 4k HDR laser projector. I’m willing to look at both to see if I can reproduce the issue on that movie in that specific scene. If it’s reproducible then it’s an issue with the NetFlix app on the Shield. If not, well then it could be caused by lots of things...
1:37:33 (within this scene and any red background in Snoke's room)

Other than the banding found within the Netflix app, all other videos have excellent quality, whether I'm using Plex,Kodi, or MrMC.

I forgot that I had a digital copy of this movie

Google Play Movies, banding present.
Vudu, HDX, banding is minimized.
Amazon Prime, banding present
Movies Anywhere, banding minimized

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post #10455 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groove93 View Post
1:37:33 (within this scene and any red background in Snoke's room)

Other than the banding found within the Netflix app, all other videos have excellent quality, whether I'm using Plex,Kodi, or MrMC.

I forgot that I had a digital copy of this movie

Google Play Movies, banding present.
Vudu, HDX, banding is minimized.
Amazon Prime, banding present
Movies Anywhere, banding minimized
I found it. I wasn’t sure if it was the early scene or the later scene... Yeah, I see the banding as well although it is very subtle. I could see it using both my displays so it is not display dependent. It was there using the Netflix app but not using Kodi. Can’t tell if it’s the source or the player. Played the same scene using the NetFlix app on my FireTV Stick 4k, same display, same subtle banding issue so it is not unique to the Shield. It is either the source or the built in Netflix player.

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post #10456 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 09:33 PM
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I also started playback about a minute earlier from the scene just in case the player needed time to improve the image quality, but that made no difference.

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post #10457 of 12218 Old 05-29-2019, 10:08 PM
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For people using the Netflix Kodi addon, are you able to get 4K and HDR content listed? I only get 1080p content but I get HDR and 4k using the native Netflix app. Thanks

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post #10458 of 12218 Old 05-30-2019, 05:17 AM
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No, you won't see 4k or HDR as a description, and you will only see Dolby HD for content with Atmos.




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post #10459 of 12218 Old 05-30-2019, 06:24 AM
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So last night after unsuccessfully updating Plex Media Server on my Freenas server, I decided to install PMS on the Shield. It's been almost 2 years since I tried it, and considering that I now have my NAS tucked away behind the living room couch where it is physically wired to my switch, as opposed to using a wireless bridge, I thought I'd give the Shield a try since streaming has been stable.


I think having PMS on the Shield might be a permanent solution. I streamed 3 4k movies to my Shield, my Pixel 2, and an older LG G5 smartphone simultaneously. All were direct play and only the Pixel needed the audio to be transcoded. No pauses in the video streams nor audio breakups. The Shield is hardwired, while the two phones are on my 5ghz network (802.11ac).

The only real issue Im having is that im not able to see my Music Directory on my NAS with the Shield PMS, but it is available on the original PMS setup. I rarely use Plex for streaming music, plus I use Roon more often.



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post #10460 of 12218 Old 05-30-2019, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groove93 View Post
I also started playback about a minute earlier from the scene just in case the player needed time to improve the image quality, but that made no difference.

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It is an issue but like I said, it's not an issue with, or unique to, the Shield as I see the same thing using the NetFlix app on my FireTV Stick 4k. It is an issue with either the player built in to the NetFlix app, the source material, or some combination of the two. When I have time later today I'll test it using the NetFlix app on my ATV4k to see if I see it there as well. Honestly I don't see it as a big issue as it is very subtle and only shows up in certain scenes.

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post #10461 of 12218 Old 05-30-2019, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Murilo View Post
Ok interesting, does not sound like you have the option for 12 bit 4:2:2, the reason for it however is 10 bit 4:2:0 according to spec is only supported at 60hz, while 4:2:2 12 bit is supported at both 60hz and 24hz, and is free of banding and it was also confirmed using a vertex it does not internally down sample to 8 bit like some other realtek players do before outputting the signal. Sounds like you dont have the option or if bandwidth is a concern or you value 60hz hdr content (I cant say I have watched any) it makes more sense for you. Everyone has different uses. For me and discussing with others 12 bit 4:2:2 is the way to go since its supported at 60 and 24 fps and is free of banding as long as you dont run into bandwidth limitations.
To clarify:

10 bit 4:2:0 60hz 4k supports every possible mode up to 10 bit 4:2:0 60hz 4k.
It supports every refresh rate and will run at the native refresh rate, including 23.976, 24, 30, 50, 59.94, and 60hz.
It supports 8 and 10 bit color, so there will never be banding with standard content.
It supports Rec709 and BT2020 (natively if the colorimetry function is enabled in the setup menu, with tone mapping if it is not)
And it supports all resolutions up to 4k, although it upscales lower resolution content to 4k internally, not passing it in its native format.

12 bit content would play at 10 bit, and content with full 4:4:4 chroma subsampling would be compressed to 4:2:0. I have never run into 12 bit content so I can't tell you if you would see banding (possible since at 10 bit you have fewer colors), and as for the chroma compression, I have yet to notice any artifacting or degradation due to this. However, I don't pay close enough attention to see if I have ever run across 8 bit rec709 4k with 4:4:4 chroma subsampling, and if so, if it was noticeably different when played with compression vs without. I have yet to notice a difference between a bluray played in a good player vs an uncompressed MKV played on the shield, although I stopped comparing them two years ago and rarely use the bluray player.

If you can set your shield to 12 bit 4:2:2 60hz BT2020 4k, then do so, it hurts nothing. However, if you can only set your shield to 12bit 4:2:2 24hz bt2020 4k, then you will have issues with some content because you cannot go above 24hz with that setting.

I have never noticed banding in Netflix on the shield, and I am particularly sensitive to it. PSVue streams all content in 10 bit color, 60hz, 1080p, so if you use it and set your shield to less than 60hz or less than 10 bit, you will have issues either with severe frame loss or with color banding. I dealt with both of those when my display was limited to 10gbps and I had to constantly switch HDMI modes to fit the app. But Netflix has always played at top quality for me, and with a 150" wide screen, you tend to notice issues.

Also keep in mind, if your connection slows down, most streaming services will drop their bitrate down and banding, artifacting, and tiling can occur, and this has nothing to do with your HDMI settings. These are compression issues.
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post #10462 of 12218 Old 05-30-2019, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
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...
I have never noticed banding in Netflix on the shield, and I am particularly sensitive to it...
I never had either until this discussion about this specific scene in The Last Jedi. I have looked at the scene on two different Shields connected to two different displays (an LG OLED65B7A and an Optoma UHZ65 projector) and I clearly see the banding as in the posted pic, but it is very subtle. As I have also said it is apparently not an issue with or unique to the Shield since I also see it on the same scene using the NetFlix app on my FireTV Stick 4k’s using the same two displays. Also just checked it using the NetFlix app on my ATV4k on my Optoma UHZ65 and see it there too...

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post #10463 of 12218 Old 05-30-2019, 07:58 AM
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I'm wondering what Kodi is doing to reduce the banding compared to the Netflix App. This occured in a Marvel Film as well, but I can't recall if it was GOTG2 or Infinity War.

Another thing that stood out to me regarding GOTG2 is that Atmos was available via Kodi.

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post #10464 of 12218 Old 05-30-2019, 08:07 AM
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I'm wondering what Kodi is doing to reduce the banding compared to the Netflix App. This occured in a Marvel Film as well, but I can't recall if it was GOTG2 or Infinity War.

Another thing that stood out to me regarding GOTG2 is that Atmos was available via Kodi.

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The NetFlix app on the Shield does not currently support ATMOS. In fact NetFlix only supports ATMOS on a few platforms currently (see the link below). I ended up buying a ATV4k for my home theater just for ATMOS on NetFlix, and multiview on PSVue. If all you need is NetFlix ATMOS support on the Shield, it is my understanding that you can get that by using the NetFlix addon in Kodi.

https://help.netflix.com/en/node/64066
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post #10465 of 12218 Old 05-30-2019, 08:10 AM
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I'm already aware of that, thus the reason I have the add-on installed.

But a major film that is not produced by Netflix to have Atmos available stands out to me.

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post #10466 of 12218 Old 05-30-2019, 08:14 AM
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I'm already aware of that, thus the reason I have the add-on installed.

But a major film that is not produced by Netflix to have Atmos available stands out to me.

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post #10467 of 12218 Old 05-30-2019, 08:28 AM
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I never had either until this discussion about this specific scene in The Last Jedi. I have looked at the scene on two different Shields connected to two different displays (an LG OLED65B7A and an Optoma UHZ65 projector) and I clearly see the banding as in the posted pic, but it is very subtle. As I have also said it is apparently not an issue with or unique to the Shield since I also see it on the same scene using the NetFlix app on my FireTV Stick 4k’s using the same two displays. Also just checked it using the NetFlix app on my ATV4k on my Optoma UHZ65 and see it there too...
Sounds like a streaming issue due to compression. That scene has a massive gradient that probably consists of a million different colors on the screen in one frame, and since it has to be compressed down to the bitrate Netflix streams at, something had to give. IMHO the Kodi screenshot looks lower resolution, which would suggest less compression needed in the color gradient.

I look at it this way: If every show or movie you watched had that kind of banding it would be one thing, but in my experience with the shield and the native Netflix app, I have never noticed anything outside normal compression and scaling artifacts that are consistent with all streaming.
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post #10468 of 12218 Old 05-30-2019, 08:37 AM
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Sounds like a streaming issue due to compression. That scene has a massive gradient that probably consists of a million different colors on the screen in one frame, and since it has to be compressed down to the bitrate Netflix streams at, something had to give. IMHO the Kodi screenshot looks lower resolution, which would suggest less compression needed in the color gradient.

I look at it this way: If every show or movie you watched had that kind of banding it would be one thing, but in my experience with the shield and the native Netflix app, I have never noticed anything outside normal compression and scaling artifacts that are consistent with all streaming.
Like I mentioned in another post on this, it’s certainly not something I’m concerned about. It is very subtle and not something I honestly would have ever even noticed had it not been for this discussion. I was posting merely to provide confirmation of what was being reported.
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post #10469 of 12218 Old 05-30-2019, 08:49 AM
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Personally, I have gone to great pains (at ridiculous expense) to have a really good 4k HDR experience in my theater, and I would never give that up for slightly better compression quality in 1080p content. Frankly, I don't watch mainstream movies on Netflix, I wait until they are out on bluray and then rip them and watch them that way. I rarely compromise when I am looking for a top quality flick to watch. Streaming is great on small screens and for bingeworthy content, but for a feature presentation in the theater, it is rarely satisfactory even over bluray quality 1080p, and can't touch 4k UHD on a disc.

As for Netflix exclusive content and older shows that I binge, I expect streaming artifacts, and again wouldn't give up the quality that comes with 4k HDR on so much of this content, even to gain Atmos on a select few shows. Aside from the mainstream movies, does Netflix offer a lot of their original content in Atmos? And while Atmos is cool and all, my receiver does a fine job with 7.1 content too. Don't get me wrong, I love when a movie has thunder and rain that comes from directly above me, immersing me in the show, but wouldn't add much to Ozark, Sex Education, or even Stranger Things or Altered Carbon.

I also wouldn't give up the single source setup to have Netflix with Atmos on a different device. That definitely isn't worth it to me. Just my opinion..
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post #10470 of 12218 Old 05-30-2019, 09:02 AM
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As of late Netflix "originals" will be in 4k, or HDR. Considering what I've been finding using the Netflix add-on for Kodi, many of these "original" titles are in Atmos as well. Not all, but a good portion of them.

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