*Official Kaleidescape Alto Owners Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 572 Old 10-19-2015, 10:30 AM
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A vault does me very little good, because I have about 900 UV licenses and still have 500+ movies on disc. It would be cheaper to re-purchase any disc content available in the store than to purchase two vaults, but that still leaves me needing one $4000 vault plus two $8000 servers and that does not include clients. Going with the Stratus, even without local storage, would have me pushing $30k and that is just insane. That is not the kind of product or pricing that brings K to a broader audience.

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post #272 of 572 Old 10-19-2015, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by billygreen23 View Post
No, the 4TB Alto was $2,495 so it's an $800 increase for the 6TB Alto. This is extremely disappointing. I've been waiting for the right price point to jump into the Kaleidescape ecosystem. It seems like they took one step forward and then two steps back. If the 6TB Alto had come in at the same price or cheaper than the 4TB, I likely would've purchased it.
Doh, you are right, that must have been the price of another piece of equipment I was looking at that stuck in my mind. Will adjust my previous post above.

Darn it, as I was looking to upgrade my storage. I have 97 on my Alto now, and have another 40 that I could download that the 6TB drive could handle.
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post #273 of 572 Old 10-20-2015, 07:54 AM
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If it worked, I could pick up four of the original Alto boxes for $10,000, spend another $1000 on three 8TB drives and get a solution with four zones that stores 800 movies for $11,000. That is a FAR more reasonable price point, if not exactly cheap.

Better yet, if I could use a SATA to eSATA adaptor and an external 4-bay enclosure, it might be possible to put 600-800 movies on a single Alto.
If the price point is lower for the masses then third party companies could become available to help expand the storage issues. Like TIVO and Weaknees(third party storage-reseller). At say 1500 or 1750 they will get a lot of new customers. Remember there were high-end DVD and Blu-Ray players that were nearly in excess of 2k dollars in earlier times. I had friends buy an all in one BOSE system back in the day for around 3500+. One could argue the value of those products. I think the cost really comes down to who they want to market their product to and trying to keep there perception of their product line to existing owners. They will need to be careful if a company like Amazon/Google becomes interested in introducing a product. Not worry about Apple because their products tend to carry a higher premium.
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post #274 of 572 Old 10-20-2015, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rramacha View Post
I currently have an Alto and Vault.

I am planning to upgrade to Strato. Only issue I see is this. If say Spectre comes out in 4K Disc and its not available in the store, no way to enjoy that. You are struck with having to buy Blu Ray disc and use the vault.

What I expect to happen is current vault being replaced with a vault that can do 4K. My hope K as always will give promo for folks who have Vault to upgrade.

Cheers

Raj
I agree a upgrade path from your existing vault to a 4k version is likely.
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post #275 of 572 Old 10-20-2015, 08:04 AM
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I did some asking around and you cannot replace the hard drives in Kaleidescape products with standard drives. Apparently, there is firmware involved. People have tried to image them onto standard drives in the past. It doesn't work. My take is that this is probably due to two things: 1) creating a captive audience for massive mark-ups and 2) DRM requirements pushed on the K by the studios. As much as I'd like to say it is mostly the former, I suspect it is mostly the latter and therefore you don't get the economies of scale you get with a bare drive. I am hopeful that Vidity will solve this problem.

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post #276 of 572 Old 10-20-2015, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Haywood Jablomi View Post
I did some asking around and you cannot replace the hard drives in Kaleidescape products with standard drives. Apparently, there is firmware involved. People have tried to image them onto standard drives in the past. It doesn't work. My take is that this is probably due to two things: 1) creating a captive audience for massive mark-ups and 2) DRM requirements pushed on the K by the studios. As much as I'd like to say it is mostly the former, I suspect it is mostly the latter and therefore you don't get the economies of scale you get with a bare drive. I am hopeful that Vidity will solve this problem.
I would have been surprised if K would have allowed this but it was a good thought.

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post #277 of 572 Old 10-20-2015, 08:37 AM
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I was one of those folks who was very interested in the Premier Line but was still finding my feet and unable to afford one. Now with the introduction Alto and Vault i was able to jump in. Having used this set up I can say with certainty will spring $ to get 4K and Terra Server.

I agree again pricing being high and they are playing to the market. Hope they get a 4K player with disc drive or introduce a Vault with 4K optical drive.
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post #278 of 572 Old 10-20-2015, 11:01 AM
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is this a Alto owners thread or a Kaleidescape haters thread. All the whining is just tiresome after a while, good grief.

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post #279 of 572 Old 10-20-2015, 11:26 AM
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is this a Alto owners thread or a Kaleidescape haters thread. All the whining is just tiresome after a while, good grief.
Actually it's a public thread on a public forum, if you find people sharing their opinions on a forum 'tiresome' perhaps you should stick to reading magazines instead.
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post #280 of 572 Old 10-20-2015, 12:59 PM
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Actually it's a public thread on a public forum, if you find people sharing their opinions on a forum 'tiresome' perhaps you should stick to reading magazines instead.
I find the whining and hating on kaleidescape products in an owners thread tiresome. And spare me the lecture of where i am and what the purpose is dude-- you have the wrong guy for that...

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post #281 of 572 Old 10-20-2015, 04:42 PM
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is this a Alto owners thread or a Kaleidescape haters thread. All the whining is just tiresome after a while, good grief.
The SNR here is pretty low. From my POV, the pricing is what the pricing is.

I'd love to hear more about why K thinks they have a product worth their asking price.
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post #282 of 572 Old 10-20-2015, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Haywood Jablomi View Post
I did some asking around and you cannot replace the hard drives in Kaleidescape products with standard drives. Apparently, there is firmware involved. People have tried to image them onto standard drives in the past. It doesn't work. My take is that this is probably due to two things: 1) creating a captive audience for massive mark-ups and 2) DRM requirements pushed on the K by the studios. As much as I'd like to say it is mostly the former, I suspect it is mostly the latter and therefore you don't get the economies of scale you get with a bare drive. I am hopeful that Vidity will solve this problem.
Considering the founder was a founder of NetApp, I'll go with Option #1 .

Looky here!
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post #283 of 572 Old 10-20-2015, 08:32 PM
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I am personally holding out until after CES 2016, partly because I want to see what happens with Vidity.
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post #284 of 572 Old 10-21-2015, 07:30 AM
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Thanks for confirming. That is quite surprising, not to mention very disappointing. As you mention, the requirement to buy a third party UHD disc player or a new UHD disc playing Vault, in order to simply play from physical media significantly weakens K's proposition in my opinion.




I have to agree with you Ariel Sound, Cinema 1 owners seemed to have been completely forgotten about and left 'out in the cold' here by K. It is something of an insult that K are not even prepared to unlock the use of the DV700 for C1 owners, yet are happy to do so on the lower priced Alto, which already has the ability to link twice as many units anyway.
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I am personally holding out until after CES 2016, partly because I want to see what happens with Vidity.
That would be very interesting product(Cost had not been defined as of yet). Would it be bit for bit or close to 4k? I dont want to hijack this thread but it does put pressure on K to look beyond their current deployment of movies. Interesting that the early adopter is WB(like in the K store). I'm still sitting on my C1.
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post #285 of 572 Old 10-21-2015, 03:39 PM
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is this a Alto owners thread or a Kaleidescape haters thread. All the whining is just tiresome after a while, good grief.
Thank you for posting this. I have been thinking of posting along these lines for awhile. The title of this thread is "Official Kaleidescape Alto Owners Thread".

I think the coolest production car is a Land Rover Range Rover. They retail for $90,000 and top out over $200,000. I am not in their target market. It would never dawn on me to go on a thread of Range Rover owners and inform them that my Toyota Highlander is just as good or better as their Land Rover, and they are wasting their money. It would be rude and indicative of a personality flaw.

Yet every AVS K thread appears to be littered with people who feel the overwhelming need to share their opinion that K is too expensive, that they can cobble together a system with NAS, some copper wire they have laying around the house and a garden gnome and make a better system than K. Rule of thumb, if no one you know personally is interested in your opinion on K's value proposition, no one on this forum is either. Everyone knows what these systems cost, there is no reason to post your opinion on a fact. Its like arguing with a stop light. No one wants someone advising them on how they should spend their money and no is interested in how someone else spends their money. Get a dog.

It is tedious to scroll through these posts to get to something of merit. Instead, create your own "Why I hate Kaleidescape" thread and attract like thinkers, performing the beneficial function of a bug zapper by drawing annoying pests from threads intended to inform.

I would love to hear more from Alto owner's about their experiences both good and bad with the product that is the subject of this thread as I have my AV guy pricing an Encore system for me and this would be of great benefit.
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post #286 of 572 Old 10-21-2015, 06:10 PM
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Thank you for posting this. I have been thinking of posting along these lines for awhile. The title of this thread is "Official Kaleidescape Alto Owners Thread".

I think the coolest production car is a Land Rover Range Rover. They retail for $90,000 and top out over $200,000. I am not in their target market. It would never dawn on me to go on a thread of Range Rover owners and inform them that my Toyota Highlander is just as good or better as their Land Rover, and they are wasting their money. It would be rude and indicative of a personality flaw.

Yet every AVS K thread appears to be littered with people who feel the overwhelming need to share their opinion that K is too expensive, that they can cobble together a system with NAS, some copper wire they have laying around the house and a garden gnome and make a better system than K. Rule of thumb, if no one you know personally is interested in your opinion on K's value proposition, no one on this forum is either. Everyone knows what these systems cost, there is no reason to post your opinion on a fact. Its like arguing with a stop light. No one wants someone advising them on how they should spend their money and no is interested in how someone else spends their money. Get a dog.

It is tedious to scroll through these posts to get to something of merit. Instead, create your own "Why I hate Kaleidescape" thread and attract like thinkers, performing the beneficial function of a bug zapper by drawing annoying pests from threads intended to inform.

I would love to hear more from Alto owner's about their experiences both good and bad with the product that is the subject of this thread as I have my AV guy pricing an Encore system for me and this would be of great benefit.
I agree as a K owner. All I can say there are some poster who constantly bash Kaleidescape on their pricing, yet if you look at their system they invested a considerable amount of money on specific components. Did he overpay? Who am I to judge which investment was a poor one or sensible one. It's up to each electronic owner to make that choice as what is consider a 'value'. I do think the K product does has value but as time passes and the product market changes that value might have diminished.
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post #287 of 572 Old 10-21-2015, 06:19 PM
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I agree as a K owner. All I can say there are some poster who constantly bash Kaleidescape on their pricing, yet if you look at their system they invested a considerable amount of money on specific components. Did he overpay? Who am I to judge which investment was a poor one or sensible one. It's up to each electronic owner to make that choice as what is consider a 'value'. I do think the K product does has value but as time passes and the product market changes that value might have diminished.
I've noticed that too! I've seen a couple where I was thinking he's buying those speakers or whatever and he's complaining!?! Haha. I guess it all depends on priorities.
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post #288 of 572 Old 10-21-2015, 07:41 PM
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What's the killer feature of the Kaleidescape system? I understand that the user interaction is pretty good to stellar and that the store is nice but what is it that grabbed you about it?
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post #289 of 572 Old 10-21-2015, 09:26 PM
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What's the killer feature of the Kaleidescape system? I understand that the user interaction is pretty good to stellar and that the store is nice but what is it that grabbed you about it?
I have used a very good alternative to K now for a number of years, so I have experience with a good alternative. A more general PC alternative has some key advantages over K such as alternative solutions do not cause you to be as dependent upon 1 company, an alternative can be more tailored made to exactly what you want, and they are a lot less expensive.

But K has its advantages also: Their equipment like Apple tends to be very dependable, simple to operate, and they are legal.

When I have the opportunity to watch a movie with my family, or they want to watch one in my absence, it needs to be easy and just work. If they have to reboot the PC, forget it. For me at this stage in my life, since I am able to live within my means, time has become the most important currency. I do not in any way dismiss how great it must be to DIY a system, it must be with a tremendous sense of pride to watch a movie on a system you created. That would make a great thread. That is not me though. I just do not have the time to create or to manage such a system.

The legal thing is bothering me to. This is only my opinion, but I believe I am being a poor example to my children by knowingly breaking the law. I don't want to debate the ethics of disc burning, I have rationalized it myself and can think of a lot of excuses, but in the end I am breaking the law if I burn a disc onto a hard drive and my children know it. While I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice, in the US, the laws are not ambiguous on hacking and burning discs. We do not own the content on a Blu-ray disc, we only own the plastic disc. K doesn't sell Disc vaults because they want to sell another piece of equipment, they would rather you purchased all your movies from their store. They sell disc vaults because after 10 years of legal battles with the movie industry they settled. There is not, nor will there ever be in the future a Kaleidescape system that accommodates discs without a vault unless something dramatically changes. Smart business move on their part, now they have signed up 5 of the big 8 studios in a year since they settled and they were able to have their existing customer systems grandfathered.

So to answer your question as to why I have chosen to go the K route versus a less expensive alternative; for me time and dependability is more important than the system cost in dollars and as a parent I feel and this is just me and I have no right to judge anyone else's beliefs as others may feel differently, but I feel like I would be a hypocrite if I burned discs to a hard drive.

So the decision is not between K or an alternative, its either K or no system.
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post #290 of 572 Old 10-22-2015, 05:13 AM
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I have used a very good alternative to K now for a number of years, so I have experience with a good alternative. A more general PC alternative has some key advantages over K such as alternative solutions do not cause you to be as dependent upon 1 company, an alternative can be more tailored made to exactly what you want, and they are a lot less expensive.

But K has its advantages also: Their equipment like Apple tends to be very dependable, simple to operate, and they are legal.

When I have the opportunity to watch a movie with my family, or they want to watch one in my absence, it needs to be easy and just work. If they have to reboot the PC, forget it. For me at this stage in my life, since I am able to live within my means, time has become the most important currency. I do not in any way dismiss how great it must be to DIY a system, it must be with a tremendous sense of pride to watch a movie on a system you created. That would make a great thread. That is not me though. I just do not have the time to create or to manage such a system.

The legal thing is bothering me to. This is only my opinion, but I believe I am being a poor example to my children by knowingly breaking the law. I don't want to debate the ethics of disc burning, I have rationalized it myself and can think of a lot of excuses, but in the end I am breaking the law if I burn a disc onto a hard drive and my children know it. While I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice, in the US, the laws are not ambiguous on hacking and burning discs. We do not own the content on a Blu-ray disc, we only own the plastic disc. K doesn't sell Disc vaults because they want to sell another piece of equipment, they would rather you purchased all your movies from their store. They sell disc vaults because after 10 years of legal battles with the movie industry they settled. There is not, nor will there ever be in the future a Kaleidescape system that accommodates discs without a vault unless something dramatically changes. Smart business move on their part, now they have signed up 5 of the big 8 studios in a year since they settled and they were able to have their existing customer systems grandfathered.

So to answer your question as to why I have chosen to go the K route versus a less expensive alternative; for me time and dependability is more important than the system cost in dollars and as a parent I feel and this is just me and I have no right to judge anyone else's beliefs as others may feel differently, but I feel like I would be a hypocrite if I burned discs to a hard drive.

So the decision is not between K or an alternative, its either K or no system.
Totally agree. Time is so much more important for me. When I was building PCs in my 20's & 30's , I had fun investing my free time into the projects. Today I have better things to do. We use the K and our TIVO the most. Family time is the most important than hiding in the garage or den for extended periods.

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post #291 of 572 Old 10-22-2015, 09:10 AM
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The legal thing is bothering me to. This is only my opinion, but I believe I am being a poor example to my children by knowingly breaking the law. I don't want to debate the ethics of disc burning, I have rationalized it myself and can think of a lot of excuses, but in the end I am breaking the law if I burn a disc onto a hard drive and my children know it.
I use this as a good example for teaching my kids the difference between ethics/morality and legality. It is also useful for demonstrating how our governmental process has been completely hijacked by the highest bidder, so that laws are no longer made with the best public interest in mind.
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post #292 of 572 Old 10-22-2015, 09:24 AM
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Thank you for posting this. I have been thinking of posting along these lines for awhile. The title of this thread is "Official Kaleidescape Alto Owners Thread".

I think the coolest production car is a Land Rover Range Rover. They retail for $90,000 and top out over $200,000. I am not in their target market. It would never dawn on me to go on a thread of Range Rover owners and inform them that my Toyota Highlander is just as good or better as their Land Rover, and they are wasting their money. It would be rude and indicative of a personality flaw.

Yet every AVS K thread appears to be littered with people who feel the overwhelming need to share their opinion that K is too expensive, that they can cobble together a system with NAS, some copper wire they have laying around the house and a garden gnome and make a better system than K. Rule of thumb, if no one you know personally is interested in your opinion on K's value proposition, no one on this forum is either. Everyone knows what these systems cost, there is no reason to post your opinion on a fact. Its like arguing with a stop light. No one wants someone advising them on how they should spend their money and no is interested in how someone else spends their money. Get a dog.

It is tedious to scroll through these posts to get to something of merit. Instead, create your own "Why I hate Kaleidescape" thread and attract like thinkers, performing the beneficial function of a bug zapper by drawing annoying pests from threads intended to inform.

I would love to hear more from Alto owner's about their experiences both good and bad with the product that is the subject of this thread as I have my AV guy pricing an Encore system for me and this would be of great benefit.
Yeah its quite bizarre. K seems to be the most polarizing product around here. The haters just spring out of the wood works as if they heard some sort of dog whistle-- and begin seething in anger on cue. There's usually some diatribe to follow about hard drives, value, mass market, blah, blah, the world is unfair i have a paul bunyan sized axe to grind.

And all the while kaleidescape is like: "You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take this kaleidescape remote. Use it , we have 4K. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant."
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post #293 of 572 Old 10-22-2015, 09:26 AM
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And for the record i also cant really afford any of Kaleidescape's products. I *might* get a Strato but thats only because i cant get it at dealer cost---we'll see how much it means to me when the time comes. I went to cedia and watched $300,000 projectors and heard $125,000 sound systems and never once did the urge to kick over someones booth because ' i cant have one' occur to me. Also, product manufacturers dont really have to justify why they price something as such. They can do whatever they want---its up to the buyer to decide what is and is not worthwhile to them.

All that said i value owners threads. I like having individual owners review products and give fist hand accounts of real world user experiences. Its surely an asset to potential buyers or folks interested in like products. I suppose we just have to deal with the protesters to get it.

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post #294 of 572 Old 10-22-2015, 09:37 AM
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What's the killer feature of the Kaleidescape system? I understand that the user interaction is pretty good to stellar and that the store is nice but what is it that grabbed you about it?
I didnt spend much time at the Kaleidescape booth at Cedia but from what i did see:

They now support full bit for bit 4K movies from their store (Strato)
They support Dolby Atmos and DTS:X , when available (Strato)
They support HDR (Strato)
Even the GUI has be redone in 4K (Strato)

And the clincher---no one else can do this. Well not that im aware of but i havent researched every solution out there so.... and if i listed any feature thats not accurate --my bad in advance. Like i said i only breezed through Ks booth
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post #295 of 572 Old 10-22-2015, 09:46 AM
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The product is the product. If you like it but don t like its price point then don't buy it. Just don't bash it and say it can be replicated legally for lesser dollars.

Now, who is trying to decide whether they plan purchase/upgrade to the Strato line? The only feature I wish K could include is to integrate the UI for all of the existing and future products. I would be very interested in that feature. Right now, I'm on the fence on exactly the direction I am heading with my C1. I could upgrade all of my DVD content to the K store and migrate the films onto the Strato and an Alto. Oddly enough, I cannot dummy down my C1 to allow sharing content with a Strato, if I wanted to. Or gain more storage beyond two C1. Hate to buy/sell to move to the next platform.
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post #296 of 572 Old 10-22-2015, 10:04 AM
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What's the killer feature of the Kaleidescape system? I understand that the user interaction is pretty good to stellar and that the store is nice but what is it that grabbed you about it?
The ability to create a movie library and to access it on any tv in the home. There have been some HTPC based competitors over the years (Mozaex, Vidabox, Niveus) but they all approached the DRM hurdle differently, and from a potentially more dubious position.

Kscape has decided this is a premium product and they only want to go after that market. Which is fine if its working for them.

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post #297 of 572 Old 10-22-2015, 11:09 AM
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The product is the product. If you like it but don t like its price point then don't buy it. Just don't bash it and say it can be replicated legally for lesser dollars.

Now, who is trying to decide whether they plan purchase/upgrade to the Strato line? The only feature I wish K could include is to integrate the UI for all of the existing and future products. I would be very interested in that feature. Right now, I'm on the fence on exactly the direction I am heading with my C1. I could upgrade all of my DVD content to the K store and migrate the films onto the Strato and an Alto. Oddly enough, I cannot dummy down my C1 to allow sharing content with a Strato, if I wanted to. Or gain more storage beyond two C1. Hate to buy/sell to move to the next platform.
yeah this is an interesting scenario that ill be keeping an eye on. Ive never owned any K gear but i always heard that they take care of folks when it comes to upgrading---i.e the transition from the original DVD system -> Bluray -> now UHD 4K. Having all K devices merged under one UI also seems like a no brainer. I surely hope they take care of those that have bough into premier, C1 or alto.

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post #298 of 572 Old 10-22-2015, 11:17 AM
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From what i was told at Cedia Strato had no local disc playback functionality because there currently is no UHD Bluray player on the market. I imagine it wont be until there is a few, perhaps several, UHD players released that K will make it available on their gear---including the Disc Vault--which may or may never see a UHD version.

If they get out in front of the pack in releasing 4k titles in the store consistently, that may alleviate some of that. i think that might be their goal and i wonder if they plan to beat UHD physical media to market. That *seemed* to be the mood at the booth. who knows...
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post #299 of 572 Old 10-22-2015, 12:10 PM
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From what i was told at Cedia Strato had no local disc playback functionality because there currently is no UHD Bluray player on the market. I imagine it wont be until there is a few, perhaps several, UHD players released that K will make it available on their gear---including the Disc Vault--which may or may never see a UHD version.

If they get out in front of the pack in releasing 4k titles in the store consistently, that may alleviate some of that. i think that might be their goal and i wonder if they plan to beat UHD physical media to market. That *seemed* to be the mood at the booth. who knows...
And when the UHD player comes out there will be a 'Consumer' version(around $500-700) and a 'Reference' version(around $1500-2000) from Sony. K will wait a bit for the dust to settle and their version of the 'Consumer/Reference' version will be released.
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post #300 of 572 Old 10-23-2015, 12:26 PM
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And for the record i also cant really afford any of Kaleidescape's products. I *might* get a Strato but thats only because i cant get it at dealer cost---we'll see how much it means to me when the time comes. I went to cedia and watched $300,000 projectors and heard $125,000 sound systems and never once did the urge to kick over someones booth because ' i cant have one' occur to me. Also, product manufacturers dont really have to justify why they price something as such. They can do whatever they want---its up to the buyer to decide what is and is not worthwhile to them.

All that said i value owners threads. I like having individual owners review products and give fist hand accounts of real world user experiences. Its surely an asset to potential buyers or folks interested in like products. I suppose we just have to deal with the protesters to get it.
How did the 4k UI look on the Strato?
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