Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) / Atmos over HDMI ARC - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 807 Old 05-11-2017, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jamesb23 View Post
Thanks puddy77. Those would definitely allow me to send the audio separately to the receiver and get Dolby True HD or DTS HD?
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Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post
I knew some here would come through with a cheaper alternative. Thanks @puddy77 . Sorry, I only had experience with the Integral, but that is admittely a higher end solution with HDR and 18 GBit/s support.
Sorry, after reading more carefully, that Sewell splitter might not work after all. Since it is fully HDCP compliant, it limits the output to whatever the lower resolution device is. So hooking it up to your older receiver at the same time as your 4k display will limit it to 1080p. I say just get a standalone UHD player that has dual HDMI outs. Or just live with lossy audio until you are ready for a receiver upgrade.
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post #212 of 807 Old 05-11-2017, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jamesb23 View Post
I emailed Sewell. I don't think their product would work for my situation. Here's what they said: "because the audio receiver is only HDMI 1.4 and does not support 4K HDR the LG display will not be displayed in 4K HDR it will most likely be 1080p. The splitter can only output the highest quality signal that both devices are capable of."

Frustrating that I have to spend hundreds more on a new receiver when my Denon is perfectly fine. Either that or just deal with plain Dolby or DTS. Do you think I'd notice a big difference from TrueHD or DTS HD if I stuck with my existing receiver? I don't have a super high end set up. My speakers are the affordable but respectable Energy Classic Take 5.1 which have sounded pretty good to my amateur ears.
I get your frustration. I am in the same boat with an older receiver that works fine. And my old bd player recently died, so my backup is my PC with a bd drive, which I only get lossy out of. Still sounds great to me. I don't think you will hear a huge difference. But I am planning on getting a standalone UHD player with dual HDMI outputs soon.
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post #213 of 807 Old 05-11-2017, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
I get your frustration. I am in the same boat with an older receiver that works fine. And my old bd player recently died, so my backup is my PC with a bd drive, which I only get lossy out of. Still sounds great to me. I don't think you will hear a huge difference. But I am planning on getting a standalone UHD player with dual HDMI outputs soon.
I might consider a UHD player with dual output when prices come down. But since I have an Xbox One S to play UHD movies now, it doesn't make much sense. I will see how things sound with plain old DD or DTS for now.
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post #214 of 807 Old 05-13-2017, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rolldog View Post
I too have a Vizio P75 and have been able to cast Vudu from the tablet remote to my P75, get UHD resolution in DV and Atmos via ARC on my Marantz SR7010. Initially, I didn't get any sound, but then I saw where I had hidden TV Audio from my list of inputs. Whenever I disabled this, the audio came through perfectly.

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What did your tablet say was playing when playing ATMOS? Actually "ATMOS" or what it was playing with (DD+)?
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post #215 of 807 Old 05-13-2017, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post
Yes.
Scarabaeus,


Do you know yet if the new Sony HT-ST5000 soundbar can accept DD+ over it's ARC? They say Dolby Digital and TrueHD. I wasn't 100% on if that included DD+ for the DD+ stuff I'd be getting directly from my Vizio P-65 like we talked about earlier.


Thanks.
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post #216 of 807 Old 05-14-2017, 01:40 PM
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Does 2017 LG OLEDs support DD+/Atmos over ARC?
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post #217 of 807 Old 05-14-2017, 05:05 PM
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I'm about to pull the trigger on an HDR-capable upgrade from my 2014 Vizio P602ui-B3, trying to keep it to about $2000. It's looking very much like the best choice (for me) at that price point is Sony the XBR65X900E. Reading the specs on page 18 of its reference guide, I see the following:

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ARC (Audio Return Channel) (HDMI IN 3 only)
(Two channel linear PCM: 48 kHz, 16 bits, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS)
(Emphasis added). Sounds hopeful .

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post #218 of 807 Old 05-14-2017, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post
Yes, correct, your TV only passes DD and lesser formats. As long as the source device provides DD, otherwise it's stereo PCM (e.g. from the XBox).

However, you could use a splitter (e.g. the HDFury Integral) to separate video and audio, and send the audio to your AVR, and video to the TV. A universal remote, such as the Harmony, helps greatly with cases like this, CEC is not equipped for such setups.
What about DTS? My Sony UHD TV handles DTS over the ARC. So I have my PS4 Pro and XBOne S send DTS and use the ARC to get it to my speaker bar.

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post #219 of 807 Old 05-15-2017, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by _voyager_ View Post
Does 2017 LG OLEDs support DD+/Atmos over ARC?
Yes, but. If it's Atmos, it needs to be a DD+ based Atmos stream (lossy codec) and not TrueHD (lossless, such as from your Blu-Rays). The DD+ stream can do 7.1 channels (again, lossy) to an older receiver, or carry object metadata for your Atmos-receiver (which will in turn decode to however many speakers you have).
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Yes, but. If it's Atmos, it needs to be a DD+ based Atmos stream (lossy codec) and not TrueHD (lossless, such as from your Blu-Rays). The DD+ stream can do 7.1 channels (again, lossy) to an older receiver, or carry object metadata for your Atmos-receiver (which will in turn decode to however many speakers you have).
You've verified this with your TV? I've heard mixed reports about whether it works.

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post #221 of 807 Old 05-15-2017, 04:03 PM
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2017 LG OLEDs are the first item on the list in the 2nd post. (It explicitly warns that 2016 and earlier models do not do it).

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post #222 of 807 Old 05-15-2017, 05:31 PM
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You've verified this with your TV? I've heard mixed reports about whether it works.
I'm not able to verify the Atmos as I don't have access to any streaming services that use DD+based Atmos. Others in the B7-C7 owners thread have reported successfully doing it though. I've been able to pass through 7.1 channel DD+ using PS4. My current receiver isn't Atmos so it would cap there anyway.
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post #223 of 807 Old 05-15-2017, 10:45 PM
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For anyone who wants to see LG support Atmos over ARC, put in a Voice of Customer request. Call LG Support 800-243-0000, tell them you have an OLED request to immediately be put through to VIP support. They will take info from you including the model # and serial # and then file the request, which they say is considered when deciding what to build into firmware updates. The woman I spoke to seemed to know immediately that this was a known issue and suggested it could be resolved in a firmware update, so hopefully it's already on LG's radar. With any luck filing enough of these requests will bump it up in the queue.
So you reported this issue to LG and it sounded like others have put in the request too?

Is this hardware limitation or just a software limitation that can obviously be addressed with a firmware update?
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post #224 of 807 Old 05-15-2017, 10:47 PM
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So you reported this issue to LG and it sounded like others have put in the request too?

Is this hardware limitation or just a software limitation that can obviously be addressed with a firmware update?
Unknown, I couldn't get a clear answer from them and I doubt they would give one. I'm hoping it's firmware-updateable since they're presumably converting DD+ to DD I would hope it's just a case of turning that off.

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post #225 of 807 Old 05-16-2017, 12:02 AM
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Unknown, I couldn't get a clear answer from them and I doubt they would give one. I'm hoping it's firmware-updateable since they're presumably converting DD+ to DD I would hope it's just a case of turning that off.
My HDMI ARC quit working back in early April for some reason. My B6 is only two months old; not sure if it's my receiver which is a Sony 750. So been using optical since. There's a new LG firmware update release last week. But my ARC still won't work.

I noticed that some of my VUDU movies will stream Dolby Digital EX which is outputting in my setup 6.1 channels. I always thought optical was limited to 5.1. So maybe it is doable to get 7.1 channels and DD+ with a firmware update. I've got a Denon X3300W coming this week. We'll see if my HDMI ARC gets fixed with the combination of a new receiver.

UPDATE 5/23/17: I got my new X3300W setup last night and my HDMI ARC is working again with the new receiver.

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post #226 of 807 Old 06-07-2017, 03:24 PM
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Dolby Atmos from HW-K950 to QE49Q7

Hello,
I have a request if you can tell me.
I want to buy this TV QE49Q7 and this audio system HW-K950. There are both from Samsung, 2017.
The question is, will i have dolby Atmos on tv? And if I have this possibility, which cables should I use to connect them.

Thanks you!
Adrian
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post #227 of 807 Old 06-18-2017, 12:27 PM
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I'm not sure where to ask this question but this thread looks like an appropriate place.

If I buy a 2017 LG C7 OLED, can I get the TV to decode ATMOS audio and pass it through to my AVR with PCM? Is this possible without reducing the quality of the sound?

I have a very expensive and excellent sounding Pioneer SC67 and I want to keep using it for as long as possible.
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post #228 of 807 Old 06-18-2017, 02:30 PM
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If I buy a 2017 LG C7 OLED, can I get the TV to decode ATMOS audio and pass it through to my AVR with PCM? Is this possible without reducing the quality of the sound?
PCM from TVs (optical or ARC) is limited to 2 channels.

Aside from that, I'm not aware of any Atmos->PCM->AVR equipment chains. To my knowledge all Atmos decoders are "all in one" devices.
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post #229 of 807 Old 06-18-2017, 03:58 PM
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If I buy a 2017 LG C7 OLED, can I get the TV to decode ATMOS audio and pass it through to my AVR with PCM? Is this possible without reducing the quality of the sound?.
A key thing to remember is that "Atmos" isn't inherently a better AQ - it is sprinkles added to a core that is either Dolby TrueHD (lossless, high quality audio) or DD+ (lossy variable bitrate, but most implementations are basically on par for AQ with regular DD, but for the fact that the extra 2 channels for a 7.1 can be mixed in).

Over ARC, you can bitstream the DD+ 7.1 with or without Atmos to an AVR. Some select few streaming sites will give you DD+ Atmos. Most will be DD+ 5.1. You cannot bitstream a TrueHD core over ARC. You will be able to with eARC, which is part of the HDMI 2.1 spec (no devices exist that support 2.1).

So here is the rub: UNLESS you actually have more than 7.1 setup, you don't really benefit from the Atmos sprinkles at all. The core will be basically identical - indistinguishable - from the Atmos-decoded version of the same stream. The magic of object-based decoding is really only unlocked by having 2 or more elevation speakers in your setup. Otherwise, the core basically already has the "objects" hardcoded to their respective channels.

The bottom line is, despite all the marketing, and the LG B7-W7 line being "Atmos", the only way to really benefit from Atmos is to get a 5.1.2 to 7.1.4 speaker arrangement (powered by am AVR that can decode it). Otherwise, the regular TrueHD / DD+ 5/7.1 core ends up being pretty much the same experience on whatever you have.
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post #230 of 807 Old 06-20-2017, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
I get your frustration. I am in the same boat with an older receiver that works fine. And my old bd player recently died, so my backup is my PC with a bd drive, which I only get lossy out of. Still sounds great to me. I don't think you will hear a huge difference. But I am planning on getting a standalone UHD player with dual HDMI outputs soon.
If your PC has both Display Port and HDMI, you can get a DP to HDMI converter to get the 2nd HDMI out for lossless sound.
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post #231 of 807 Old 06-20-2017, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Pastuch View Post
I'm not sure where to ask this question but this thread looks like an appropriate place.

If I buy a 2017 LG C7 OLED, can I get the TV to decode ATMOS audio and pass it through to my AVR with PCM? Is this possible without reducing the quality of the sound?

I have a very expensive and excellent sounding Pioneer SC67 and I want to keep using it for as long as possible.
LG C7 OLED (or any TV) cannot do that. You need a Dolby Atmos Pre-Amp for that. However, they are likely to cost more than your SC-67. It may be cheaper to just get a new AVR with Dolby Atmos built-in.
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post #232 of 807 Old 06-24-2017, 10:29 PM
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Thanks for the helpful feedback. I have a 5.1 setup using hdbaset. It seems I can't get lossless audio, and it doesn't seem like it matters if I can get anything beyond lossy 5.1. I.e. Atmos over arc.
I'm hoping to have it setup to try in a week. The tv is an (LG) c7 and the avr is an onkyo RZ820. And blackbird hdbaset.

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Originally Posted by Hresna View Post
A key thing to remember is that "Atmos" isn't inherently a better AQ - it is sprinkles added to a core that is either Dolby TrueHD (lossless, high quality audio) or DD+ (lossy variable bitrate, but most implementations are basically on par for AQ with regular DD, but for the fact that the extra 2 channels for a 7.1 can be mixed in).

Over ARC, you can bitstream the DD+ 7.1 with or without Atmos to an AVR. Some select few streaming sites will give you DD+ Atmos. Most will be DD+ 5.1. You cannot bitstream a TrueHD core over ARC. You will be able to with eARC, which is part of the HDMI 2.1 spec (no devices exist that support 2.1).

So here is the rub: UNLESS you actually have more than 7.1 setup, you don't really benefit from the Atmos sprinkles at all. The core will be basically identical - indistinguishable - from the Atmos-decoded version of the same stream. The magic of object-based decoding is really only unlocked by having 2 or more elevation speakers in your setup. Otherwise, the core basically already has the "objects" hardcoded to their respective channels.

The bottom line is, despite all the marketing, and the LG B7-W7 line being "Atmos", the only way to really benefit from Atmos is to get a 5.1.2 to 7.1.4 speaker arrangement (powered by am AVR that can decode it). Otherwise, the regular TrueHD / DD+ 5/7.1 core ends up being pretty much the same experience on whatever you have.

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post #233 of 807 Old 06-28-2017, 02:18 PM
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Now that Netflix has announced Atmos support for Xbox One and (coming soon) 2017 LG OLEDs, the lack of support on 2016 models is again getting some coverage! Time to start calling LG with complaints again - here's the direct line to their VIP OLED support (855) 400-4640

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post #234 of 807 Old 06-29-2017, 08:33 AM
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Now that Netflix has announced Atmos support for Xbox One and (coming soon) 2017 LG OLEDs, the lack of support on 2016 models is again getting some coverage! Time to start calling LG with complaints again - here's the direct line to their VIP OLED support (855) 400-4640
I wonder what's unique about Netflix's Atmos implementation that it wouldn't work with Vizio P-series TVs. They're able to stream DD+ over ARC right now and support Atmos in this fashion with Vudu already. Also, DD+ already streams from Netflix when casting to the Vizio from the Netflix app, so as long as the Atmos metadata is included the DD+ bitstream that Netflix provides when casting, this should work. I guess I'll have to try it, although it's certainly possible that Netflix only sends the Atmos metadata to limited devices right now to keep the feature exclusive.
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post #235 of 807 Old 06-29-2017, 08:56 AM
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I wonder what's unique about Netflix's Atmos implementation that it wouldn't work with Vizio P-series TVs. They're able to stream DD+ over ARC right now and support Atmos in this fashion with Vudu already. Also, DD+ already streams from Netflix when casting to the Vizio from the Netflix app, so as long as the Atmos metadata is included the DD+ bitstream that Netflix provides when casting, this should work. I guess I'll have to try it, although it's certainly possible that Netflix only sends the Atmos metadata to limited devices right now to keep the feature exclusive.
My suspicion is we'll see it rolled out to more Atmos-capable devices in time, but its a question of how quickly they can update the client software on all these devices.
LG 2017 TVs got an update to the Netflix client yesterday that enables the display of a dual "dolby vision & atmos" badge for the content that supports it, which right now is only Okja.
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post #236 of 807 Old 06-29-2017, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Hresna View Post
A key thing to remember is that "Atmos" isn't inherently a better AQ - it is sprinkles added to a core that is either Dolby TrueHD (lossless, high quality audio) or DD+ (lossy variable bitrate, but most implementations are basically on par for AQ with regular DD, but for the fact that the extra 2 channels for a 7.1 can be mixed in).

Over ARC, you can bitstream the DD+ 7.1 with or without Atmos to an AVR. Some select few streaming sites will give you DD+ Atmos. Most will be DD+ 5.1. You cannot bitstream a TrueHD core over ARC. You will be able to with eARC, which is part of the HDMI 2.1 spec (no devices exist that support 2.1).

So here is the rub: UNLESS you actually have more than 7.1 setup, you don't really benefit from the Atmos sprinkles at all. The core will be basically identical - indistinguishable - from the Atmos-decoded version of the same stream. The magic of object-based decoding is really only unlocked by having 2 or more elevation speakers in your setup. Otherwise, the core basically already has the "objects" hardcoded to their respective channels.

The bottom line is, despite all the marketing, and the LG B7-W7 line being "Atmos", the only way to really benefit from Atmos is to get a 5.1.2 to 7.1.4 speaker arrangement (powered by am AVR that can decode it). Otherwise, the regular TrueHD / DD+ 5/7.1 core ends up being pretty much the same experience on whatever you have.
Great explanation! Gee, are you a teacher or AV person?

I'll assume that lossless is better than lossy for Dolby Atmos (DD+) and the best audio you can get is from a Bluray disc?

I'm getting a new TV for the man cave and will be setting up ARC for my streaming and OTA sources. I have a 11.1.4 setup (Front Wides/Front/Back Top) for Dolby Atmos & DTS Neo X (older Denon x5200 AVR)

My cable provider is Comcast. They occasionally experimented with Dolby Atmos via DD+ (Black Sails episode) but not much more. My Roku provides DD+ but that's only 5.1.

My question is this - - how different is lossless Dolby Atmos versus lossy Dolby Atmos? I know lossless is optimal but for streaming - - what is the best we can expect? And from what source? (Amazon Prime, VUDU, Google Play Movies, Netflix, etc.)
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post #237 of 807 Old 06-29-2017, 11:18 AM
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Hi Hresna
like posted on another thread:

Received Netflix update today on the LG C7
LG DTV version 03.60.09
Netflix version 1.5.18 / 4.3.5

See new combi logo for Dolby Vision & Atmos

Yes it does show Dolby Atmos on the SJ9 display , the same way as from a Bluray with Atmos.
Almost forgot about this thread.. thanks to the info here I bought the LG C7 with SJ9
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post #238 of 807 Old 06-29-2017, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Hresna View Post
My suspicion is we'll see it rolled out to more Atmos-capable devices in time, but its a question of how quickly they can update the client software on all these devices.
LG 2017 TVs got an update to the Netflix client yesterday that enables the display of a dual "dolby vision & atmos" badge for the content that supports it, which right now is only Okja.
On the Vizio sets, the client app doesn't live on the display, it lives on the device you're casting from. So I guess they'll have to update the Netflix client software somehow, but I just don't get it. I just played Okja on my P75 and got DV and DD+ over ARC but evidently Atmos wasn't embedded in that DD+ stream. Why would there be a difference in the DD+ stream that LG devices receive vs. what I get through casting?
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post #239 of 807 Old 06-29-2017, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
Great explanation! Gee, are you a teacher or AV person?
Hah, thank you. I'm neither, but my job entails a lot of explaining technical stuff to non-technical officials. AV enthusiast on the side.

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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
I'll assume that lossless is better than lossy for Dolby Atmos (DD+) and the best audio you can get is from a Bluray disc?
//snip//
My question is this - - how different is lossless Dolby Atmos versus lossy Dolby Atmos? I know lossless is optimal but for streaming - - what is the best we can expect? And from what source? (Amazon Prime, VUDU, Google Play Movies, Netflix, etc.)
So far disc is still the only way to enjoy lossless audio. (Or niche services like kaleidoscape that let you download the same content as the discs). The streaming sites are market-conscious and their main consumers don't really care about audio quality. Your standard DD+ stream will be capped at a rate to give equivalent-to-DD quality audio (I'll estimate in the 450-400 kbps range). DD+ can go much higher in bitrate and quality but the streamsites have seen no reason to do so, they use the more efficient encoding of DD+ only to lower file size.

I can't say who has the best quality audio, but I'd assume they are all on par with DVD-quality DD+ streams, some will have the Atmos "sprinkles" available as an extra. In Canada, Netflix is pretty much the only game in town, so I have no frame of reference for the others but I've seen in these forums they are about the same.

With a decent AVR and speakers, you can hear the difference between DD and Lossless audio fairly easily; it isn't as subtle as the difference between, say, itunes 256 AAC versus CD quality (a lot of people can't tell the difference). DD will sound "muddier" than the lossless one and have less overal punch/impact. The Lossless audio codecs are much crisper and all around a better listening experience. Why I end up buyig so many Blurays, even when the movie is on Netflix.
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post #240 of 807 Old 06-30-2017, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
On the Vizio sets, the client app doesn't live on the display, it lives on the device you're casting from. So I guess they'll have to update the Netflix client software somehow, but I just don't get it. I just played Okja on my P75 and got DV and DD+ over ARC but evidently Atmos wasn't embedded in that DD+ stream. Why would there be a difference in the DD+ stream that LG devices receive vs. what I get through casting?
I'm going to hazard a guess that the crux of this is that Vizio isn't paying the license fee to Dolby for Atmos, whereas LG is and have branded their TVs as such. The bitstreaming of Atmos over the ARC connection is really the only advantage gleaned from an "Atmos" TV. [Ref my other editorials on this matter]

I'm not familiar with the backbone of Android casting, but if it works like Airplay, there would be potential limitations in how the streams are processed. In some instances of Airplay, the casting device does all the decoding and sends only a 2ch ALAC stream of pre-decoded audio. In most cases though, the casting device serves up a web address for the target device to "fetch" from, which is a better way to go about it, and would permit the target device to get at the undecimated bitstream with the Atmos sprinkles in it. But at this point, that Device needs to be paying Dolby's fee to then re-direct that Atmos bitstream over its ARC connection (as per my hypothesis). Unlike a device such as a UHD or BD player which can send the bitstream directly over HDMI without even being aware of the presence of Atmos sprinkles.

But the good news is that external streaming devices (rokus, shields, ATVs, etc) tend to outpace the capabilities of our “Smart” TVs and for modest cost they free us of the limitations of ARC, let us connect direct to our AVRs, and get our AVR overlays and Atmos bistreams, and we are none the worse for not using the native client apps of our TVs.

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