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post #5251 of 5335 Old 11-12-2019, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
That's where I am going if YTTV every adds 5.1 DD sound. If they had that I'd leave my grandfather plan on the dust.
YouTube TV is rapidly becoming the "go-to" streaming cable TV service. They're going to add PBS soon, the first streaming cable TV service to do so. If they just added a few more missing channels, plus DD 5.1 audio, and could hold their price to $55/mo, I really think they'd start eating into traditional cable and satellite services in a serious way.
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post #5252 of 5335 Old 11-12-2019, 01:15 PM
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YouTube TV is rapidly becoming the "go-to" streaming cable TV service. They're going to add PBS soon, the first streaming cable TV service to do so. If they just added a few more missing channels, plus DD 5.1 audio, and could hold their price to $55/mo, I really think they'd start eating into traditional cable and satellite services in a serious way.
PBS is definitely something I missed after dropping satellite for DTVN but thankfully everything is available on their app, although they are now implementing a paywall for some things or making the programs free for a while and then behind a paywall. The Science Channel is another one I'd miss if switching to YTTV, not too many streaming services carry it. ATTTVN is just about perfect for me in terms my grandfathered package channel lineup, if only they could make it less buggy.

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post #5253 of 5335 Old 11-12-2019, 02:43 PM
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Man, this service can be infuriating at times with the wonky DVR, buggy TVos app, stuttering and framerate/bandwidth issues.
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post #5254 of 5335 Old 11-12-2019, 09:06 PM
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I cancelled AT&T Now today (I still have AT&T WatchTV w/HBO & Starz via AT&T Wireless). I was a pilot subscriber (Gotta Have It) at launch.

I subscribed to the Disney+/ESPN+/Hulu (No Ads) + Live TV bundle. It's likely we will only subscribe to Live TV during football and basketball seasons.
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post #5255 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 05:26 AM
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So I spent 3x more than I have ever spent on a TV on a 85" 900F, bought APT boxes which are 3-4 times more expensive than other streaming devices, and I am now having to watch ATTTV in 1080 because of the lip synch,,,,,,it did solve the problem, but this is crazy
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post #5256 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by andydallas View Post
So I spent 3x more than I have ever spent on a TV on a 85" 900F, bought APT boxes which are 3-4 times more expensive than other streaming devices, and I am now having to watch ATTTV in 1080 because of the lip synch,,,,,,it did solve the problem, but this is crazy
I put mine on 4k HDR 60hz and it works great. No sacrifice as far as I can tell on any of my Sony 940e/930e TV's.
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post #5257 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by andydallas View Post
So I spent 3x more than I have ever spent on a TV on a 85" 900F, bought APT boxes which are 3-4 times more expensive than other streaming devices, and I am now having to watch ATTTV in 1080 because of the lip synch,,,,,,it did solve the problem, but this is crazy

Sorry you're having those issues. I'm not seeing this with my setup.

I have a Roku Ultra and am passing the signal from it through an OPPO 203 to a Vizio PQ 65. Once in a great while I see a lip synch problem pop up, but exiting the app and re-entering clears it up.

It may be (just my speculation here) that their servers are different around the country, loads may vary and so on. I'm in a pretty busy area (Boston area), maybe their servers or path to them is stressed in your area.

I can see why you're ticked at this, it would bug me too.
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post #5258 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by andydallas View Post
So I spent 3x more than I have ever spent on a TV on a 85" 900F, bought APT boxes which are 3-4 times more expensive than other streaming devices, and I am now having to watch ATTTV in 1080 because of the lip synch,,,,,,it did solve the problem, but this is crazy


Why is this a problem?

The feed for the live tv channels is 1080. You are outputting 1080 and letting your display upscale to 4K.

The alternative is, you let the source device (i.e. Apple TV) upscale the 1080p feed to 4K vs. letting the tv do it. In theory, the end result is the same. Either the source or the display is up scaling from a 1080p feed to 4K. In reality, sometimes the display upscale a tad better than the source device.

I’m not sure what the problem is, but it doesn’t sound like you really understand how this stuff works. The feed is natively 1080p anyway. Outputting 1080p to the tv is fine and will not be detrimental to the ATT feed in any way.



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post #5259 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jkozlow3 View Post
Why is this a problem?

The feed for the live tv channels is 1080. You are outputting 1080 and letting your display upscale to 4K.

The alternative is, you let the source device (i.e. Apple TV) upscale the 1080p feed to 4K vs. letting the tv do it. In theory, the end result is the same. Either the source or the display is up scaling from a 1080p feed to 4K. In reality, sometimes the display upscale a tad better than the source device.

I’m not sure what the problem is, but it doesn’t sound like you really understand how this stuff works. The feed is natively 1080p anyway. Outputting 1080p to the tv is fine and will not be detrimental to the ATT feed in any way.



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Everytime I go to watach 4k content I have to go in and change the settings, that is not user friendly. Obviously you don't understand that companies are suppose to make things easy for the consumer, not harder (let me guess, you are an engineer that has no people skills)
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post #5260 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by andydallas View Post
Everytime I go to watach 4k content I have to go in and change the settings, that is not user friendly. Obviously you don't understand that companies are suppose to make things easy for the consumer, not harder (let me guess, you are an engineer that has no people skills)
Yes, having to switch to output 4k for native 4k content *is* an issue and is annoying for sure. I was mostly referring to outputting 1080p for ATT content not being an issue since it is 1080p natively and the display would simply upscale it to 4k vs. the Apple TV.

No one has proven that the issue is on ATT's end and not on Apple's end as the issue started around the same time as TVOS 13.2 was released.

To confirm the issue is with ATT, we would need to:

  • Test ATT using the same problematic channels on other devices such as Roku outputting 4k to see if the problem exists
  • Test the same problematic channels on other streaming platforms such as Hulu and YTTV to see if the problem exists when outputting 4k or if the issue is only with ATT on those problematic channels.

To the best of my knowledge, no one has done these tests and posted the results here. If I have time, I may do some of that testing. I was the one who posted here offering the 1080p output as a workaround.
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post #5261 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jkozlow3 View Post
Yes, having to switch to output 4k for native 4k content *is* an issue and is annoying for sure. I was mostly referring to outputting 1080p for ATT content not being an issue since it is 1080p natively and the display would simply upscale it to 4k vs. the Apple TV.

No one has proven that the issue is on ATT's end and not on Apple's end as the issue started around the same time as TVOS 13.2 was released.

To confirm the issue is with ATT, we would need to:

  • Test ATT using the same problematic channels on other devices such as Roku outputting 4k to see if the problem exists
  • Test the same problematic channels on other streaming platforms such as Hulu and YTTV to see if the problem exists when outputting 4k or if the issue is only with ATT on those problematic channels.

To the best of my knowledge, no one has done these tests and posted the results here. If I have time, I may do some of that testing. I was the one who posted here offering the 1080p output as a workaround.

I haven't tried that, I have one TV on Roku, but its not 4k, I will move the Roku to a TV that is 4k and see what happens. Not sure when I will have time, but it will be interesting (hopefully someone will beat me to it)
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post #5262 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jkozlow3 View Post
To the best of my knowledge, no one has done these tests and posted the results here. If I have time, I may do some of that testing. I was the one who posted here offering the 1080p output as a workaround.
Thank you for posting that btw, I definitely wouldn't have thought to try that. IMO though the PQ is better with the ATV set to 4K SDR than passing 1080p to my TV, for whatever reason. I tried to watch CNN last night, it was a total mess, ridiculous stuttering and about 5 sec lip (out of) sync. I've never seen anything like it. I didn't set the ATV to 1080p though I just switched to Netflix I was so disgusted.
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post #5263 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 01:40 PM
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I'm quite sure that the audio sync problem has to do with ATV4K upscaling. When the ATV4K is set to 4K SDR, it causes a video delay in the upscaling which is why the audio gets out of sync (ahead of the video). Setting the ATV4K to 1080P eliminates the upscaling (except for 720P/1080i content) and eliminates the lag, which is why the 1080P default is an effective workaround. Of course, it then creates an inconvenience of having to flip flop back and forth when native 4K content is being played. Not to mention that the ATV4K upscaling might be superior to the TV upscaling (YMMV depending on the individual's TV).

I get the same audio sync problems watching NHL.TV content on the ATV4K, which suggests that it isn't an ATT problem.

Watching NHL.TV and ATT TV on the native apps from my Sony 900F do not have audio sync issues.
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post #5264 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by PlanetAVS View Post
I'm quite sure that the audio sync problem has to do with ATV4K upscaling. When the ATV4K is set to 4K SDR, it causes a video delay in the upscaling which is why the audio gets out of sync (ahead of the video). Setting the ATV4K to 1080P eliminates the upscaling (except for 720P/1080i content) and eliminates the lag, which is why the 1080P default is an effective workaround. Of course, it then creates an inconvenience of having to flip flop back and forth when native 4K content is being played. Not to mention that the ATV4K upscaling might be superior to the TV upscaling (YMMV depending on the individual's TV).

I get the same audio sync problems watching NHL.TV content on the ATV4K, which suggests that it isn't an ATT problem.

Watching NHL.TV and ATT TV on the native apps from my Sony 900F do not have audio sync issues.
Forgot to add that I asked a friend who watches the same content as I do on the 4th generation ATV if he has noticed any audio sync problems, and he hasn't. Which points to the ATV4K upscaling as the culprit.
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post #5265 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 01:55 PM
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I'm quite sure that the audio sync problem has to do with ATV4K upscaling.
You may be right but why doesn't it happen with any other app? I've given up for now with the ATV4K and going to use a Fire Stick 4K.
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post #5266 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 02:01 PM
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You may be right but why doesn't it happen with any other app? I've given up for now with the ATV4K and going to use a Fire Stick 4K.
Fair point, but I know it happens with the NHL.TV app. If the other app is being tested with 4K content, then there shouldn't be an issue. Also keep in mind that the sync issue comes and goes (for example, switching channels temporarily fixes the problem but eventually the lag comes back).
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post #5267 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 02:09 PM
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Fair point, but I know it happens with the NHL.TV app. If the other app is being tested with 4K content, then there shouldn't be an issue. Also keep in mind that the sync issue comes and goes (for example, switching channels temporarily fixes the problem but eventually the lag comes back).
Yeah I tried switching channels last night with the horrible stuttering and lip sync but it came screaming back in a few seconds. That's actually the first time I've noticed it on live TV, has always been on recordings for me until then.

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post #5268 of 5335 Old 11-13-2019, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkozlow3 View Post
No one has proven that the issue is on ATT's end and not on Apple's end as the issue started around the same time as TVOS 13.2 was released.

To confirm the issue is with ATT, we would need to:

  • Test ATT using the same problematic channels on other devices such as Roku outputting 4k to see if the problem exists
  • Test the same problematic channels on other streaming platforms such as Hulu and YTTV to see if the problem exists when outputting 4k or if the issue is only with ATT on those problematic channels.

To the best of my knowledge, no one has done these tests and posted the results here. If I have time, I may do some of that testing. I was the one who posted here offering the 1080p output as a workaround.

OK, I did some light testing tonight. Below are my findings. I used my local NBC channel as I not only get audio sync issues, but I also get very obvious video stuttering/choppiness issues when outputting 4K SDR on my Apple TV when watching this channel (among some other channels). The video moves in what appears to be slow motion at times and is completely unwatchable. Side note: is anyone else experiencing this terrible slow motion & video choppiness on some of their ATT channels or is my Apple TV 4k starting to kick the bucket when upscaling to 4k?

The issue started around the same time TVOS 13.2 was released. As I previously posted, changing the Apple TV to output 1080p SDR fixes these issues.

All testing was done with live streams using the same channel and programming.

Apple TV - set to output 4k SDR:

AT&T TV Now - fail - very obvious video stuttering/choppiness on my local NBC station
Hulu Live TV - pass - no immediately obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station
YTTV - pass - no immediately obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station

Roku - set to output 4k SDR:

AT&T TV Now - pass - no obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station
Hulu Live TV - pass - no immediately obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station
YTTV - pass - no immediately obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station

So it would appear as though the issue *might* be on Apple's end. However, I can't explain why the issue doesn't affect Hulu Live TV or YTTV when watching the same station/content.

On a related note, I signed up for trials of Hulu Live TV and YTTV using burner email addresses the other day and ATT TV Now has the best picture quality of the 3 to my eyes when displayed on a 65" OLED. And ATT probably looks better on Apple TV vs. Roku as well (haven't done a ton of testing using the Roku however - Apple TV is my primary device for all my viewing).

Hulu is a close second and I'm not sure I could tell the difference in a blind test between ATT and Hulu 100% of the time - they are very close and I'd be happy with either service purely from a PQ standpoint. YTTV PQ is a bit softer and more compressed looking from my limited testing so far. PQ is my primary concern. I actually get Cox cable for free (every channel) but can't stand to watch it due to the lousy, WAY over-compressed PQ.

Last edited by jkozlow3; 11-13-2019 at 11:04 PM.
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post #5269 of 5335 Old 11-14-2019, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jkozlow3 View Post
OK, I did some light testing tonight. Below are my findings. I used my local NBC channel as I not only get audio sync issues, but I also get very obvious video stuttering/choppiness issues when outputting 4K SDR on my Apple TV when watching this channel (among some other channels). The video moves in what appears to be slow motion at times and is completely unwatchable. Side note: is anyone else experiencing this terrible slow motion & video choppiness on some of their ATT channels or is my Apple TV 4k starting to kick the bucket when upscaling to 4k?



The issue started around the same time TVOS 13.2 was released. As I previously posted, changing the Apple TV to output 1080p SDR fixes these issues.



All testing was done with live streams using the same channel and programming.



Apple TV - set to output 4k SDR:



AT&T TV Now - fail - very obvious video stuttering/choppiness on my local NBC station

Hulu Live TV - pass - no immediately obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station

YTTV - pass - no immediately obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station



Roku - set to output 4k SDR:



AT&T TV Now - pass - no obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station

Hulu Live TV - pass - no immediately obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station

YTTV - pass - no immediately obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station



So it would appear as though the issue *might* be on Apple's end. However, I can't explain why the issue doesn't affect Hulu Live TV or YTTV when watching the same station/content.



On a related note, I signed up for trials of Hulu Live TV and YTTV using burner email addresses the other day and ATT TV Now has the best picture quality of the 3 to my eyes when displayed on a 65" OLED. And ATT probably looks better on Apple TV vs. Roku as well (haven't done a ton of testing using the Roku however - Apple TV is my primary device for all my viewing).



Hulu is a close second and I'm not sure I could tell the difference in a blind test between ATT and Hulu 100% of the time - they are very close and I'd be happy with either service purely from a PQ standpoint. YTTV PQ is a bit softer and more compressed looking from my limited testing so far. PQ is my primary concern. I actually get Cox cable for free (every channel) but can't stand to watch it due to the lousy, WAY over-compressed PQ.
Me personally I can deal with a less great picture quality, what I CANNOT deal with is not having 5.1 sound. I have to stick with AT&T TV Now until the others step up their game. Dude it's almost 2020 and to not have 5.1 sound is a joke. Expensive, crap cable has had 5.1 sound since the 90s.
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post #5270 of 5335 Old 11-14-2019, 06:58 AM
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I used a Fire TV Stick 4K last night set to output in 4K and had no issues watching ATTTVN, so it's looking like it is some kind of incompatibility issue with 4K output from ATV4K and ATTTVN. I thought the PQ of the Fire TV Stick was very good if not indistinguishable from the ATV4K.

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post #5271 of 5335 Old 11-16-2019, 02:13 PM
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Well looks like I'm finally getting the increase of $15. I think I'll start some free trials of other services to see which one I'll switch too. Im starting to think if I really need anything anyway. I find half the time I'm still just flicking through channels. Its still not a bad price even with the increase but its more than I need to be paying at this moment for the few shows I use it for.
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post #5272 of 5335 Old 11-16-2019, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkozlow3 View Post
OK, I did some light testing tonight. Below are my findings. I used my local NBC channel as I not only get audio sync issues, but I also get very obvious video stuttering/choppiness issues when outputting 4K SDR on my Apple TV when watching this channel (among some other channels). The video moves in what appears to be slow motion at times and is completely unwatchable. Side note: is anyone else experiencing this terrible slow motion & video choppiness on some of their ATT channels or is my Apple TV 4k starting to kick the bucket when upscaling to 4k?

The issue started around the same time TVOS 13.2 was released. As I previously posted, changing the Apple TV to output 1080p SDR fixes these issues.

All testing was done with live streams using the same channel and programming.

Apple TV - set to output 4k SDR:

AT&T TV Now - fail - very obvious video stuttering/choppiness on my local NBC station
Hulu Live TV - pass - no immediately obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station
YTTV - pass - no immediately obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station

Roku - set to output 4k SDR:

AT&T TV Now - pass - no obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station
Hulu Live TV - pass - no immediately obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station
YTTV - pass - no immediately obvious video stuttering on my local NBC station

So it would appear as though the issue *might* be on Apple's end. However, I can't explain why the issue doesn't affect Hulu Live TV or YTTV when watching the same station/content.

On a related note, I signed up for trials of Hulu Live TV and YTTV using burner email addresses the other day and ATT TV Now has the best picture quality of the 3 to my eyes when displayed on a 65" OLED. And ATT probably looks better on Apple TV vs. Roku as well (haven't done a ton of testing using the Roku however - Apple TV is my primary device for all my viewing).

Hulu is a close second and I'm not sure I could tell the difference in a blind test between ATT and Hulu 100% of the time - they are very close and I'd be happy with either service purely from a PQ standpoint. YTTV PQ is a bit softer and more compressed looking from my limited testing so far. PQ is my primary concern. I actually get Cox cable for free (every channel) but can't stand to watch it due to the lousy, WAY over-compressed PQ.
OK, I have another update...

Picked up a new Apple TV 4k for testing purposes. It came with TV OS 11.4.1 preinstalled (must have been pretty old stock). I did NOT update the TV OS to 13.2 for my initial testing.

Streaming the same NBC content on both Apple TV 4k devices with them both outputting 4K SDR, only my older Apple TV running 13.2 had the video stuttering issue where it looks like slow motion and the lip sync is way, way off. The new ATV running 11.4.1 had no issues at all.

At this point I figured there must be something wrong with my ATV *or* 13.2. So I updated the TV OS to 13.2 on the new ATV and repeated the test. Sure enough, horrible video stuttering on my local NBC channel.

I signed up for the beta releases on the Apple TV and let it download and install the latest 13.3 beta. Problem persisted - not fixed in the latest beta.

So the issue is definitely with TV OS 13.2. However it doesn't occur with live streaming TV on Hulu or YTTV, so there is some kind of incompatibility with ATT and TV OS 13.2. Previous versions of TV OS (TV OS 13 and earlier - there was no TV OS 13.1 to the best of my knowledge) had no issues.

Has anyone reached out to Apple to report these issues?
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post #5273 of 5335 Old 11-16-2019, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by suitechicguy View Post
Well looks like I'm finally getting the increase of $15. I think I'll start some free trials of other services to see which one I'll switch too. Im starting to think if I really need anything anyway. I find half the time I'm still just flicking through channels. Its still not a bad price even with the increase but its more than I need to be paying at this moment for the few shows I use it for.
Go to the Chrome browser ATT TV Now website and sign in, then clic 'help'...the live chat window pops up....then ask for a $10 refund...I've done that now the past two months with success!

Of course always be civil/polite! good luck!
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post #5274 of 5335 Old 11-16-2019, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jkozlow3 View Post
Has anyone reached out to Apple to report these issues?
I was thinking the same, I don't know how/who to contact. But it's such a narrow issue with the new OS, affecting only ATTTVN subs, that I wonder if they would even care or just say setting output to 1080p SDR is the solution.
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post #5275 of 5335 Old 11-17-2019, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suitechicguy View Post
Well looks like I'm finally getting the increase of $15. I think I'll start some free trials of other services to see which one I'll switch too. Im starting to think if I really need anything anyway. I find half the time I'm still just flicking through channels. Its still not a bad price even with the increase but its more than I need to be paying at this moment for the few shows I use it for.
Go to the Chrome browser ATT TV Now website and sign in, then clic 'help'...the live chat window pops up....then ask for a $10 refund...I've done that now the past two months with success!

Of course always be civil/polite! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG] good luck!
Thanks I might try that for a couple months. I’ve gotten credits before in the past pretty easily. They sure do hand them out lol
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post #5276 of 5335 Old 11-17-2019, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Egan View Post
I was thinking the same, I don't know how/who to contact. But it's such a narrow issue with the new OS, affecting only ATTTVN subs, that I wonder if they would even care or just say setting output to 1080p SDR is the solution.
I hooked my ATV4K back up to my TV and immediately set it to 1080p SDR, go to watch Live PD recorded last night and right away have bad lip sync. Live TV seems to be ok. Has anyone else had the lip sync issue with the ATV set to 1080p SDR?

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post #5277 of 5335 Old 11-17-2019, 02:26 PM
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Just switched back to 4K SDR watching football on both CBS & FOX so far no stuttering/lip sync issue! Strange.

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post #5278 of 5335 Old 11-17-2019, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
Just switched back to 4K SDR watching football on both CBS & FOX so far no stuttering/lip sync issue! Strange.
Never mind
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post #5279 of 5335 Old 11-17-2019, 03:34 PM
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Never mind
Change the setting to 4:2:0. The lip sync problem goes away even when set to 4K SDR

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post #5280 of 5335 Old 11-17-2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by math wizard View Post
Change the setting to 4:2:0. The lip sync problem goes away even when set to 4K SDR
Thanks I’ll try that!

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