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blackssr 01-30-2017 09:10 AM

Blu-ray ripper subtitle handling and backup discussion thread for the Dunes
 
Just to bring everyone up to speed, I asked forum member and author of Blu-ray Ripper, ( https://www.dropbox.com/sh/25w69pxf0...4l27pcrka?dl=0 ) @jasonkennethrose , for a brief overview of the types of subs that are used in studio authored Blu-Ray discs. Below is concise and easy to follow description:


“Normal = Subtitle events that have to be turned on to see. These events can be anything from the movie subtitles to closed captioning to director comments.

Forced = Subtitle events that are flagged in a subtitle track to appear without user interaction. These types of events are used when languages are spoken in the movie that a viewer would not necessarily understand.

Type 1 (Normal and Forced events contained in a single track) Movie example: Avatar. Type 1 subtitle tracks do not always require authored discs to see the subtitles. It does require a player that can detect the flagged events.

Type 2 (Forced events only) Movie example: John Carter. Type 2 subtitle tracks usually require a player to understand authored discs and the detection of flagged events in order for the events to be displayed.

Type 3 (Normal events that should be flagged as Forced events but are not) Movie example: Gran Torino. Type 3 subtitle tracks always require a player to understand authored discs in order for the events to be displayed.”

If you only create full ISO and need or want menus, then this discussion is not for you. With that said, let’s begin:



Clown_BD has been the program of choice for many to create backup “Main Movie ISOs” of their collection (Just Main Movie, HD Audio, Sub and Forced Titles). Clown_BD cuts down the size of the movie backup by nearly 30% without any loss of quality, had support for Type 1 and Type 2 forced subtitles and allowed for faster playback loading due to lack of the bloat that comes when creating a full ISO. Clown_BD did not support Type 3 at all. Hence the issue when dealing with movies that were authored with this method. Any user, that had a Media player that supported BD menus/BD engine for playback, found Clown_BD to be extremely useful. I have received many PMs over the past several weeks asking how I prepare my backups for use with the Dunes and decided to create this thread to keep all discussions and different methods in one location.

The reason I decided to revisit some of my collection with forced sub titles (all were created with Clown_BD) was to create a more elegant or cleaner backup. I wanted only Type 1 sub/forced event tracks even if the original disc had a Type 2 or Type 3. Using BD Ripper, I am now able to do this. It allows Type 2 and Type 3 to be “merged” into a Type 1 track containing the main track with forced events.
The Dunes have a “fast switch” subtitle option in the settings that allow a single button press to toggle the main track on and off without seeing a menu. By creating a Type 1 track, even when the original disc did not have it, I can now enjoy fast toggling between forced events and main track with a single quick button press. The Dunes honor the forced events without user intervention. However, on occasion, I need to toggle the main track to better understand missed dialog. This is very convenient.

Listed below, are some of the titles that would benefit by creating a merged "Type 1" track. I am sure there are quite a few more in others collections. I hope it helps some of you better understand how efficient Blu-ray Ripper is at handling forced subs and "Movie only" ISO creation. If you are interested in creating a ISO or Folder Structure backup for your Dune or some earlier media player that has a BD Engine give it a try.

Title _____________________________ Time Stamp of 1st forced event


The Avengers 2D/3D _______________________ 00:12:12
World War Z 2D/3D ______________________ 00:19:42
Captain America: First Avenger 2D/3D ______________________ 00:03:51
Captain America: Winter Soldier 2D/3D_____________________ 00:07:04
Captain America: Civil War 2D/3D ______________________ 00:01:05
Captain Phillips ______________________ 00:04:36
District 9 ______________________ 00:04:55
Birth of a Nation ______________________ 00:01:19
X-Men: First Class ______________________ 00:04:33
Transformers: Age of Extinction 2D/3D ______________________ 01:06:05
Life of Pi 2D/3D ______________________ 00:12:56
30 Days of Night ______________________ 00:35:58
The Martian 2D/3D ______________________ 01:20:40
Rise of the Planet of the Apes ______________________ 00:49:02
Dawn of the Planet of the Apes 2D/3D ______________________ 00:03:59
The Godfather ______________________ 00:42:31
The Godfather Part 2 ______________________ 00:03:01
The Godfather Part 3 ______________________ 00:49:40
Star Trek: The Motion Picture ________________00:04:40
Star Trek III: The Search for Spock ________________00:08:43
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier ________________00:24:19
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country _____________ 00:28:31
Stars Wars: A New Hope _____________________00:49:59
Star Wars: Return of the Jedi ____________________00:09:59
Stars Wars: The Phantom Menace ___________________00:31:43
Star Wars: Attach of the Clones __________________00:05:12
2012 ___________________ 00:09:02
Kill Bill Vol 1 _____________________ 00:15:13
Kill Bill Vol 2 __________________ 00:47:11
Gran Torino _______________ 00:10:11
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2D/3D ______________ 00:12:11
The Revenant __________________ 00:01:04
The Wolverine_________ 00:20:52
Allied __________ 00:05:17
Jackie _____________ 00:13:05
Dances with Wolves __________ 00:31:59
X-Men Apocalypse 2D/3D___________ 00:03:19
The Dictator _________ 00:38:53
The Walk 2D/3D _____________ 00:05:19
Assassins Creed 2D/3D ______ 00:01:55

pepar 01-30-2017 10:27 AM

Can anybody comment on the similarity in requirements for Popcorn Hour vis-a-vis Dune?

blackssr 01-30-2017 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepar (Post 50337297)
Can anybody comment on the similarity in requirements for Popcorn Hour vis-a-vis Dune?

Which model PCH?

ScottJ 01-30-2017 10:34 AM

Note that ClownBD also likes to convert Type 1 subs into Type 2 subs. For example, World War Z, the original Captain America, and Captain Phillips all have Type 1 subs on the original disc, according to my notes. (I didn't go through your entire list. Probably many more.)

pepar 01-30-2017 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackssr (Post 50337377)
Which model PCH?

I think they all operate the same with respect to hitting play and having any forced subs automatically display... don't they? My A-300 and VTEN do.

blackssr 01-30-2017 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottJ (Post 50337553)
Note that ClownBD also likes to convert Type 1 subs into Type 2 subs. For example, World War Z, the original Captain America, and Captain Phillips all have Type 1 subs on the original disc, according to my notes. (I didn't go through your entire list. Probably many more.)

I noticed that. While I was cleaning up the list that I posted, Clown_BD seems to extract and create an additional forced track. The end result worked for Type 1 and Type 2 but left Type 3 out in the cold. After working with Blu-ray ripper, I realized that I prefer Type 1 on all my movies. I only need a single Type 1 track to suite my needs. Many should feel the same. It takes about 17 minutes to run through Blu-ray Ripper and merge and create a new ISO with just the one Type 1 track. A labor of love for sure, but Movies are a big hobby of mine, more so than my cars or other toys. I really enjoy them and the OCD in me need the cleanest method and most efficient finished product. I have found it and will help others if they ask. I have taken a lot from this forum (and from you) over the years and try to give back when I can.

blackssr 01-30-2017 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepar (Post 50337713)
I think they all operate the same with respect to hitting play and having any forced subs automatically display... don't they? My A-300 and VTEN do.

I reason I asked, I know the earlier PCH Models supported menus and had BD engines. I have not owned a PCH since I purchased the Base 3.0 several years ago. Do any of the newer models have BD engines? If they do, then they will benefit from Blu-ray Ripper and its forced title manipulation.

ScottJ 01-30-2017 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackssr (Post 50337833)
I noticed that. While I was cleaning up the list that I posted, Clown_BD seems to extract and create an additional forced track. The end result worked for Type 1 and Type 2 but left Type 3 out in the cold. After working with Blu-ray ripper, I realized that I prefer Type 1 on all my movies. I only need a single Type 1 track to suite my needs. Many should feel the same. It takes about 17 minutes to run through Blu-ray Ripper and merge and create a new ISO with just the one Type 1 track. A labor of love for sure, but Movies are a big hobby of mine, more so than my cars or other toys. I really enjoy them and the OCD in me need the cleanest method and most efficient finished product. I have found it and will help others if they ask. I have taken a lot from this forum (and from you) over the years and try to give back when I can.

Yep. Especially for the Dunes, Type 1 is da bomb. I've been doing this for years with ClownBD (through much hand-holding) but Blu-ray Ripper looks like a much easier way to achieve the same thing.

johnBlanker 01-30-2017 10:49 AM

You're the man Mike!

blackssr 01-30-2017 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottJ (Post 50337553)
Note that ClownBD also likes to convert Type 1 subs into Type 2 subs. For example, World War Z, the original Captain America, and Captain Phillips all have Type 1 subs on the original disc, according to my notes. (I didn't go through your entire list. Probably many more.)

Man I wish I kept notes of all this crap over the years.:mad: It is so hard to remember which movies have what in my collection. I plan to revisit the original six Star Wars and well as my original 6 movie Star Trek collection. If memory serves me some of those have Type 2 forced tracks .

blackssr 01-30-2017 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnBlanker (Post 50337977)
You're the man Mike!

Hey bud.. all good.. Wife and baby?

blackssr 01-30-2017 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottJ (Post 50337929)
Yep. Especially for the Dunes, Type 1 is da bomb. I've been doing this for years with ClownBD (through much hand-holding) but Blu-ray Ripper looks like a much easier way to achieve the same thing.

How extensive is your list of what has what?

ScottJ 01-30-2017 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackssr (Post 50338121)
How extensive is your list of what has what?

For forced subs I've got notes on 297 movies, though probably half of those are foreign films, so not quite the same.

Star Wars 1, 2, 4, 6 need help
Star Trek 1, 3, 5, 6 need help

pepar 01-30-2017 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackssr (Post 50337897)
I reason I asked, I know the earlier PCH Models supported menus and had BD engines. I have not owned a PCH since I purchased the Base 3.0 several years ago. Do any of the newer models have BD engines? If they do, then they will benefit from Blu-ray Ripper and its forced title manipulation.

BD-Lite. But I am a decide-on-movie-hit-play kind of guy.

blackssr 01-30-2017 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepar (Post 50338385)
BD-Lite. But I am a decide-on-movie-hit-play kind of guy.

I have the Dune Base 3D and Dune Base 301. Both of these only have BD Lite Engines. They do not honor forced events in ISO or Folder Structure. I would suspect other player would ignore them also.

halfelite 01-30-2017 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepar (Post 50338385)
BD-Lite. But I am a decide-on-movie-hit-play kind of guy.

Type 1 will work type 2 and 3 will not work on PCH lite setup.

But for people going Movie only ISO why not move to MKV which has better handling of forced/audio flags?

pepar 01-30-2017 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfelite (Post 50339465)
Type 1 will work type 2 and 3 will not work on PCH lite setup.

But for people going Movie only ISO why not move to MKV which has better handling of forced/audio flags?

I have been doing a lot of ripping to m2ts and only previewing on my workstation with PotPlayer and VLC. I guess I should set up a PCH and see whether or not I have screwed the pooch. :o

Jeff

halfelite 01-30-2017 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepar (Post 50339593)
I have been doing a lot of ripping to m2ts and only previewing on my workstation with PotPlayer and VLC. I guess I should set up a PCH and see whether or not I have screwed the pooch. :o

Jeff

I would highly advice not to rip to m2ts. It has zero functionality. Once you get into wanting to contain more then one subtitle or more then one audio you start getting into external items and such. ISO/BDMV full folders and MKV are the leading options to use.

pepar 01-30-2017 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfelite (Post 50339705)
I would highly advice not to rip to m2ts. It has zero functionality. Once you get into wanting to contain more then one subtitle or more then one audio you start getting into external items and such. ISO/BDMV full folders and MKV are the leading options to use.

Thanks. I will never want more than the "forced" subs. I will never want more than the lossless audio track. "Burning" to ISO starts with folder structure ... which has m2ts in it anyway and then requires an extra step to create the ISO. I keep it simple, mux the audio into the m2ts and I am done.

Occasionally we have bouts of do-it-this-way-it-is-better on the ripping thread. Like many/most that come here, my output format is established. I have switched to Blu-Ray Ripper to get to my goal, but I have no intention of changing my target output. Thanks for your suggestion! I hope we can save bandwidth on this thread by keeping one's preferences to oneself. :)

Jeff

blackssr 01-30-2017 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfelite (Post 50339465)
Type 1 will work type 2 and 3 will not work on PCH lite setup.

But for people going Movie only ISO why not move to MKV which has better handling of forced/audio flags?

Have you tried Blu-ray Ripper yet? The handling of all three types of subtitles is incredible. The merging feature is the best aspect of it and a match made in heaven for the Dune user who want all subs to be Type 1. I spoke with the Jason (the author) over two hours this past weekend and his is working on a completely automated version just for the Dunes. One click and the magic will happen. It will still have the manual version for the techies but an automated version for the tech challenged. This may take a while but he is on board and takes suggestions on what Dunes users want or need to make their experience the best it can be.

halfelite 01-30-2017 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackssr (Post 50340185)
Have you tried Blu-ray Ripper yet? The handling of all three types of subtitles is incredible. The merging feature is the best aspect of it and a match made in heaven for the Dune user who want all subs to be Type 1.


I have not ripped any new 3d movies yet. For 2D I am sticking with MKV for plex use outside of the home and makemkv does this good enough. Waiting for Dr Strange 3D to be released at end of the month will be my next ISO rip.

fatherom 01-30-2017 12:09 PM

Just want to confirm something...if I rip full ISO (with AnyDVD "Rip to image"), I don't have to worry about any of this, right? Everything should play in the Dune correctly, since it's a full ISO with menus and all that jazz?

blackssr 01-30-2017 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfelite (Post 50340305)
I have not ripped any new 3d movies yet. For 2D I am sticking with MKV for plex use outside of the home and makemkv does this good enough. Waiting for Dr Strange 3D to be released at end of the month will be my next ISO rip.

Not an expert of MKV by any means.. Is it possible to create a Type 1 track from Type 2 or 3 authored original disc? Make MKV, like Clown_BD, creates a separate forced track. This is what I am trying to avoid.

blackssr 01-30-2017 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatherom (Post 50340393)
Just want to confirm something...if I rip full ISO (with AnyDVD "Rip to image"), I don't have to worry about any of this, right? Everything should play in the Dune correctly, since it's a full ISO with menus and all that jazz?

Yes. That is correct. The only benefit of BD-Ripper is what I stated in post 1.

blackssr 01-30-2017 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfelite (Post 50340305)
I have not ripped any new 3d movies yet. For 2D I am sticking with MKV for plex use outside of the home and makemkv does this good enough. Waiting for Dr Strange 3D to be released at end of the month will be my next ISO rip.

It really shines in 3D movie only creation.

halfelite 01-30-2017 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackssr (Post 50340457)
Not an expert of MKV by any means.. Is it possible to create a Type 1 track from Type 2 or 3 authored original disc? Make MKV, like Clown_BD, creates a separate forced track. This is what I am trying to avoid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackssr (Post 50340457)
Not an expert of MKV by any means.. Is it possible to create a Type 1 track from Type 2 or 3 authored original disc? Make MKV, like Clown_BD, create a separate forced track. This is what I am trying to avoid.

No its a separate track. The difference is MKV container has an option to mark the tracks at the header level. So after Makemkv does its thing. I have two tracks as I always keep the full English Track as well as the forced track. I set the Forced flag on the forced track and I set the default flag to the full English track. This way forced tracks will always play without selecting them after hitting play and if I turn subtitles on I will get the default full English track without hitting anything else.

So for LOTR I have it
Main Movie
DTS-HD Master Audio - English
Forced track with Elvish talk - Forced
Full English track - Default

Then for Truehd stuff I change it a bit as some players/devices dont downmix truehd So for godzilla 2014 I have
Main Movie
TrueHD 7.1 English - default audio
AC3 5.1 - No tag
Forced track - set forced flag
English track - set default

With this combo I have not found a single player that it does not function with besides a few of the cheap cheap android players that were so junky I tossed them in trash.

blackssr 01-30-2017 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottJ (Post 50338281)
For forced subs I've got notes on 297 movies, though probably half of those are foreign films, so not quite the same.

Star Wars 1, 2, 4, 6 need help
Star Trek 1, 3, 5, 6 need help

My list consists of what I put up in Post #1.;) I will update as I revisit my favorites.:)

ScottJ 01-30-2017 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackssr (Post 50341377)
My list consists of what I put up in Post #1.;) I will update as I revisit my favorites.:)

For Birth of a Nation, is that 1915 or 2016?

blackssr 01-30-2017 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfelite (Post 50341201)
No its a separate track. The difference is MKV container has an option to mark the tracks at the header level. So after Makemkv does its thing. I have two tracks as I always keep the full English Track as well as the forced track. I set the Forced flag on the forced track and I set the default flag to the full English track. This way forced tracks will always play without selecting them after hitting play and if I turn subtitles on I will get the default full English track without hitting anything else.

So for LOTR I have it
Main Movie
DTS-HD Master Audio - English
Forced track with Elvish talk - Forced
Full English track - Default

Then for Truehd stuff I change it a bit as some players/devices dont downmix truehd So for godzilla 2014 I have
Main Movie
TrueHD 7.1 English - default audio
AC3 5.1 - No tag
Forced track - set forced flag
English track - set default

With this combo I have not found a single player that it does not function with besides a few of the cheap cheap android players that were so junky I tossed them in trash.

This is very similar to way Clown_BD worked for years. At least the way I have been seeing the last several years. Based on you needs what benefit does two separate tracks give over my preferred method of a single Type 1? With BD-Ripper, Forced still play on cue and I can toggle main track with a single button press same as you.

blackssr 01-30-2017 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottJ (Post 50341497)
For Birth of a Nation, is that 1915 or 2016?

The new one. I didn't even know there was another.


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