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post #1141 of 1314 Old 11-07-2019, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
Thanks, I guess I should have been more specific. I should have said you Live TV. So it was supposed to be 5.1 live TV already but they missed the date or time frame they said it would. Thanks for the explanation.
Yes, 5.1 for live TV would be ideal. I just wanted to give a full status update on YouTube TV and 5.1. I'm active in YouTube TV and various other streaming TV groups, so I'm always keeping an eye out for updates (or even rumors from Reddit). I'll likely buy the new FireTV device this holiday season once I can confirm it at least gets 5.1 for on demand content like my Roku Ultra once did. I've also heard the FireTV devices are faster than the Roku and work with Alexa voice controls.
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post #1142 of 1314 Old 11-07-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Zookster View Post
Yes, 5.1 for live TV would be ideal. I just wanted to give a full status update on YouTube TV and 5.1. I'm active in YouTube TV and various other streaming TV groups, so I'm always keeping an eye out for updates (or even rumors from Reddit). I'll likely buy the new FireTV device this holiday season once I can confirm it at least gets 5.1 for on demand content like my Roku Ultra once did. I've also heard the FireTV devices are faster than the Roku and work with Alexa voice controls.
I have the new Amazon Cube and love it. Super duper fast.
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post #1143 of 1314 Old 11-07-2019, 01:28 PM
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Youtube TV app on Fire stick doesn't support voice controls (Alexa) yet or show up in the Live TV tab. Other than that, works well on Fire stick - snappy and stable.

@Zookster , any particular on demand you want me to check for 5.1?
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post #1144 of 1314 Old 11-07-2019, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
Youtube TV app on Fire stick doesn't support voice controls (Alexa) yet or show up in the Live TV tab. Other than that, works well on Fire stick - snappy and stable.

@Zookster , any particular on demand you want me to check for 5.1?
I've successfully tested on my 2nd gen FireTV stick some voice controls in the YouTube TV app, including FF and RW. The biggest command still missing is channel selection. I haven't configured my setup to test for 5.1 audio via my 2nd-gen stick yet (it's connected directly to my older plasma TV, which only passes two-channel audio to my AVR), but I'm more interested in hearing if the new FireTV Cube, which I hope to buy at a significant discount in and around Black Friday, will provide 5.1 audio at least for YTTV on demand content (particularly on current FX, USA, and CW shows). My theory is once 5.1 is enabled for live TV, it will come to devices that already get it for on demand content first.
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post #1145 of 1314 Old 11-07-2019, 05:24 PM
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LG C9, Fire TV 4k, Shield TV do not support 5.1 audio for live TV or on demand.

Chromecast Ultra supports 5.1 for some on demand content.
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post #1146 of 1314 Old 11-08-2019, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
LG C9, Fire TV 4k, Shield TV do not support 5.1 audio for live TV or on demand.

Chromecast Ultra supports 5.1 for some on demand content.
Funny, the LG C6 does do 5.1 on demand for YTTV. The wife was watching the ondemand of The Little Mermaid Live! and it was DD 5.1 and 60fps which surprised me as most "live" stuff gets dropped to 30p on demand (dancing with the stars, american idol, etc). Actual live tv is still 2.0 PCM.

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post #1147 of 1314 Old 11-08-2019, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Patsfan123 View Post
Funny, the LG C6 does do 5.1 on demand for YTTV. The wife was watching the ondemand of The Little Mermaid Live! and it was DD 5.1 and 60fps which surprised me as most "live" stuff gets dropped to 30p on demand (dancing with the stars, american idol, etc). Actual live tv is still 2.0 PCM.
Those shows that drop to 30fps from the content library do that because that's their native frame rate.

You'll notice scripted TV shows are mostly shot @ 24fps and play back that way too.

Live TV would be great if it actually streamed at the native frame rate.

Almost nothing is shot @ 60fps. Sports only really. So why is 60fps streaming important? Because most content is 24fps and when streamed at 30fps it is ruined. If 24 is sent out at 60fps your TV can at least do 3:2 pulldown like it can with broadcast TV. Streaming 24 @ 30fps breaks the frame cadence and the TV doesn't know what to do but play back a stuttering mess.

There is no reason to stream any content outside it's native frame rate in 2019. Live TV needs an overhaul.
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post #1148 of 1314 Old 11-08-2019, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
Those shows that drop to 30fps from the content library do that because that's their native frame rate.

You'll notice scripted TV shows are mostly shot @ 24fps and play back that way too.

Live TV would be great if it actually streamed at the native frame rate.

Almost nothing is shot @ 60fps. Sports only really. So why is 60fps streaming important? Because most content is 24fps and when streamed at 30fps it is ruined. If 24 is sent out at 60fps your TV can at least do 3:2 pulldown like it can with broadcast TV. Streaming 24 @ 30fps breaks the frame cadence and the TV doesn't know what to do but play back a stuttering mess.

There is no reason to stream any content outside it's native frame rate in 2019. Live TV needs an overhaul.
Those shows I mentioned are shot in 60fps. The content providers just drop them to 30fps to save bandwidth.

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post #1149 of 1314 Old 11-08-2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Patsfan123 View Post
Those shows I mentioned are shot in 60fps. The content providers just drop them to 30fps to save bandwidth.
I highly doubt that Dancing with the Stars is being shot @ 60fps.

Can you share a reference to where you got that information?
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post #1150 of 1314 Old 11-08-2019, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
I highly doubt that Dancing with the Stars is being shot @ 60fps.

Can you share a reference to where you got that information?
The broadcast standard for ABC and Fox is 720p60. They are natively 60 frames. If they were shot and 30 and converted to 60, the motion would be awful. This is why the live/DVR broadcast looks so different than the ondemand broadcast.

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post #1151 of 1314 Old 11-08-2019, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Patsfan123 View Post
The broadcast standard for ABC and Fox is 720p60. They are natively 60 frames. If they were shot and 30 and converted to 60, the motion would be awful. This is why the live/DVR broadcast looks so different than the ondemand broadcast.
That is the broadcast standard. Not the native frame rate of the content.

They also broadcast native 24fps content at those same broadcast resolutions (which has judder). It doesn't mean that content was native 60fps.

The on demand content at native frame rate is the best way to watch content. The live TV content is a compromise.

Too bad the on demand content has time wasting commercials that can't be skipped. That's the only reason to watch the dvr of the broadcast vs the on-demand version.
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post #1152 of 1314 Old 11-08-2019, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
I highly doubt that Dancing with the Stars is being shot @ 60fps.

Can you share a reference to where you got that information?


Better question...can you share a reference as to what frame rate those shows were shot at?


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post #1153 of 1314 Old 11-08-2019, 01:27 PM
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Better question...can you share a reference as to what frame rate those shows were shot at?


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I would have posted it if I had it. That's why I asked for it.

One thing I know is once your see 60fps motion content you'll know for certain what it looks like and what it does not look like.

Watch Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk on 4k UHD @ 60fps. Dancing with the Stars does not look like 60fps and looks exactly like 30fps NTSC video.

The fact you get native frame rate from the content library should be the first clue that it is 30fps content.
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post #1154 of 1314 Old 11-10-2019, 01:42 PM
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Can anyone give some guidance for interpreting the "dropped" frame count in the Stats for Nerds?

I'm free-trialing YTTV on a Gen 1 Fire TV Cube. In general I've been quite happy with the video performance. However over two days of viewing I noticed a couple of times when the video froze for few seconds, so started looking at the stats. I do see dropped frame counts on most videos. They vary but are usually less than 1/1000 of the total frame count. My Cube is hardwired (Ethernet) to internet that tests at 100 down/10 up Mbps. The connection speed in Nerd Stats is always around 13,000 Kbps, which I assume is just the rate the YTTV servers choose for [email protected] (what the nerd says).

I have a hunch most of the dropped frames occur in conjunction with navigation operations but you will see increments of 1 or 2 counts while just viewing for say ten minutes with no navigation.
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I talked to YTTV last week and they said they can't give a date for when 5.1 sounds but they will keep everyone posted. Sounds like they are working on it but no firm date yet. Doesn't seem like a hard thing to accomplish but what do I know?
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post #1156 of 1314 Old 11-10-2019, 02:55 PM
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I talked to YTTV last week and they said they can't give a date for when 5.1 sounds but they will keep everyone posted. Sounds like they are working on it but no firm date yet. Doesn't seem like a hard thing to accomplish but what do I know?
File it with the people at Hulu who said the same thing.

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post #1157 of 1314 Old 11-10-2019, 03:09 PM
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File it with the people at Hulu who said the same thing.
And the crappy AT&T TV Now that AT&T could not give a crap about has 5.1 sound. What is stopping these services from having 5.1 sound? Crap, overpriced rip off regular cable has had 5.1 DD since the late 90s. Matter of fact I get DD+ with AT&T TV Now.
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post #1158 of 1314 Old 11-10-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
And the crappy AT&T TV Now that AT&T could not give a crap about has 5.1 sound. What is stopping these services from having 5.1 sound? Crap, overpriced rip off regular cable has had 5.1 DD since the late 90s. Matter of fact I get DD+ with AT&T TV Now.
The squeeze hasn't happened yet, more live streaming services need to fail and when the survivors actually start to compete with each other, then features get added. Right now they really don't compete with each other.

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post #1159 of 1314 Old 11-11-2019, 09:28 AM
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Can anyone give some guidance for interpreting the "dropped" frame count in the Stats for Nerds?

I'm free-trialing YTTV on a Gen 1 Fire TV Cube. In general I've been quite happy with the video performance. However over two days of viewing I noticed a couple of times when the video froze for few seconds, so started looking at the stats. I do see dropped frame counts on most videos. They vary but are usually less than 1/1000 of the total frame count. My Cube is hardwired (Ethernet) to internet that tests at 100 down/10 up Mbps. The connection speed in Nerd Stats is always around 13,000 Kbps, which I assume is just the rate the YTTV servers choose for [email protected] (what the nerd says).

I have a hunch most of the dropped frames occur in conjunction with navigation operations but you will see increments of 1 or 2 counts while just viewing for say ten minutes with no navigation.

The nature of streaming means there will occasionally be a dropped frame, as there really is no opportunity for error correction or re-sending packets. With OTA network tuner connection, I've noticed that dropped frames occurred most often when first connecting to a stream. I'm not proficient on streaming protocols, but I might guess that the first few frames might be missing some packets. Your connection speed is not likely at fault, but high latency might play into a packet not showing up soon enough.
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What would you tell YTTV if they interviewed you, in person?

Scheduled next week.


Don't become like cable and force people to buy bundles. (Now they have one big bundle and raised cost from $35 to $50 when they added unwanted channels more than a year ago.)

Don't force us to pay for ESPN. Included in bundle. We never watched Disney even when kids were home.

Better guide.

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5.1 Dolby

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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
I talked to YTTV last week and they said they can't give a date for when 5.1 sounds but they will keep everyone posted. Sounds like they are working on it but no firm date yet. Doesn't seem like a hard thing to accomplish but what do I know?
Very disappointed that 5.1 is not available on live.
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post #1162 of 1314 Old 11-15-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
The nature of streaming means there will occasionally be a dropped frame, as there really is no opportunity for error correction or re-sending packets. With OTA network tuner connection, I've noticed that dropped frames occurred most often when first connecting to a stream. I'm not proficient on streaming protocols, but I might guess that the first few frames might be missing some packets. Your connection speed is not likely at fault, but high latency might play into a packet not showing up soon enough.
If the hardware and/or app for the service is designed properly, it will anticipate connection issues and have a memory buffer to store seconds/minutes of stream data to allow for connection issues- kinda like antiskip memory buffers in portable CD players 25+ years ago
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post #1163 of 1314 Old 11-15-2019, 10:22 AM
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Very disappointed that 5.1 is not available on live.
2ch only audio suprised me when I tried YTTV last year- amazing they haven't upgraded to DD 5.1 yet.

Pic quality and stream quality (no glitches) were excellent, though. I believe the pic quality was better than my OTA tuner viewed at 8ft wide on a JVC RS420.

Good Dolby IIx/DSU receivers can make a multichannel presentation from the 2ch feed, though.

Compared to the abomination of DirecTVNOw, YTTV is how live stream TV ought to be done, other than the 2ch audio aand neverending channel churn/cost/license/carriage issues.

Also amazed they restrict live locals to viewing from your zip code! In 2019!? One of the BIG reasons I tried YTTV was to watch my live locals when I travel/out of town/vacation. Yeah, yeah VPN's and all, but this should be a non issue at this point. Simple fix is to lock your account to a limited # of devices (Phone, a tablet and a laptop or streamer for instance) for viewing all channels anywhere, including your locals.

OTOH, needing to log in coupled with a restricted number of allowed streams pretty much does the job- your login credentials are tied to a zipcode, and the number of simultaneous streams restricts the amount of devices/people who can watch, so what gives?

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post #1164 of 1314 Old 11-15-2019, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Rgb View Post
2ch only audio suprised me when I tried YTTV last year- amazing they haven't upgraded to DD 5.1 yet.

Pic quality and stream quality (no glitches) were excellent, though. I believe the pic quality was better than my OTA tuner viewed at 8ft wide on a JVC RS420.

Good Dolby IIx/DSU receivers can make a multichannel presentation from the 2ch feed, though.

Compared to the abomination of DirecTVNOw, YTTV is how live stream TV ought to be done, other than the 2ch audio abd neverending channel churn/cost issues.
What do I have to set my receiver to take the output of yttv (on Apple TV) to my receiver to get 5.1?yttv
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post #1165 of 1314 Old 11-15-2019, 10:28 AM
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What do I have to set my receiver to take the output of yttv (on Apple TV) to my receiver to get 5.1?yttv
Dolby PL or PLII or PLIIx Movie mode, or DTS Neo Movie mode

Recent vintage receivers may call it DSU mode (Dolby Surround Upconvertor), which will make 2ch fill all the speaekrs you have- 5.1, 7.1, or 11.2.4 or anything in between.

https://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/d...er-comparison/

https://www.lifewire.com/dts-neo-6-1846892

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...iix-movie.html

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...logic-iix.html

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Very disappointed that 5.1 is not available on live.
Extremely, because it's the perfect service except for not having 5.1 sound. Really makes no sense on why but hopefully someday soon.
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post #1167 of 1314 Old 11-15-2019, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Rgb View Post
If the hardware and/or app for the service is designed properly, it will anticipate connection issues and have a memory buffer to store seconds/minutes of stream data to allow for connection issues- kinda like antiskip memory buffers in portable CD players 25+ years ago

Sure, all popular systems today have sensibly sized buffers and do a remarkable job overall when considering the huge amount of data they process. But if a packet never makes it to the destination, which will happen occasionally regardless of how big a buffer you have, that entire frame will need to be dropped. Live streaming has no re-dos. A well designed system will strike the right balance between making a user wait till the video starts after pressing play, and buffering the first set of frames considering some high, but not 100, percentile of common conditions. I don't mind an occasional stagger in the first half second of video playback if it means not waiting for the stream to start for an additional two seconds.
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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
And the crappy AT&T TV Now that AT&T could not give a crap about has 5.1 sound. What is stopping these services from having 5.1 sound? Crap, overpriced rip off regular cable has had 5.1 DD since the late 90s. Matter of fact I get DD+ with AT&T TV Now.
Agree that 5.1 would be nice (and odd that YTTV doesnt turn it on) but for someone who had DTVNow for a year before switching, YTTV (despite missing 5.1 sound) is light years better than DTVNow
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post #1169 of 1314 Old 11-15-2019, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
Extremely, because it's the perfect service except for not having 5.1 sound. Really makes no sense on why but hopefully someday soon.

I suppose they are doing everything they can to minimize bandwidth requirements during the period where expansion to serve more customers is priority. At some point, 5.1 should become a more 'important' element when they see losing competitive advantage due to lack of it.
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post #1170 of 1314 Old 11-15-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ChicagoChris View Post
Agree that 5.1 would be nice (and odd that YTTV doesnt turn it on) but for someone who had DTVNow for a year before switching, YTTV (despite missing 5.1 sound) is light years better than DTVNow
I agree, I want to dump AT&T TV Now very bad but lack of 5.1 has me staying till they get it or I can't stand it anymore with AT&T TV Now.
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