Apple TV 5 Supports 4K/UHD HDR with Many Movies on iTunes - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 630 Old 09-26-2017, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jk246 View Post
Good idea. When I cancelled my order, I made a point of telling the Apple rep exactly why and cited the Forbes & the Verge articles. There's too much wrong with these right now, and normally, if Apple had not stated that all of these issues that many find so unacceptable were actually that way because Apple designed it that way, I would have been more inclined to wait and see if they would respond by announcing they would issue an update to fix things. But because they think this is a good way to design a product and are happy with it, that takes it to a whole new level. Now it's a matter of Apple admitting they made a mistake (OMG) and fixing it. That means losing face to a company who has a track record of being unable to do that.

So I'll sit on the sidelines for now and see what happens... I'd just get frustrated and p/o'd if I got one now and it was a constant reminder of how I paid $200 for the most expensive streamer that f'd up the video because some jerk at Apple didn't like to see the box switch formats thought it was cool just make everything the same format regardless of how good or bad it looked on-screen AND decoded the native audio inside the streamer so Apple could add Siri's voice to it, instead of letting it pass natively to the AVR where far better processing circuitry was available.

If Apple does fix these issues, I'll be happy to plunk down another $200 at a later date. Hope that in the end this all turns out well for everybody.
There’s no basis yet to say Apple designed this functionality (speaking about the Dolby Vision/hdr10 issue) - you are going way too far

It is quite plausible that the issue is more a) a bug and b) possibly the studio’s fault.

Much more information is needed to imply Apple designed something to not work correctly.
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Last edited by thrang; 09-26-2017 at 07:46 PM.
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post #452 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 07:30 AM
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Kinda crazy that there's no Native option. Hmm. Maybe I'll continue to use my TV's onboard streaming apps and just use the ATV4K for iTunes until this is sorted out.
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post #453 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
That sounds hopeful. In fact, it sounds exactly like hdr10 if one doesn't have a DV display. What's different?
The difference is the Dolby Vision frame-by-frame dynamic metadata, generated at the content post-production time, which are input parameters passed to the Dolby Vision tone/gamut mapping program or Dolby Vision display adaptation program or Dolby Vision Display Management.

Using the dynamic metadata, this Dolby Vision display adaptation adapts the decoded video signal to a target display, i.e. outputs a video signal suitable to a TV with lesser color volume capabilities.


https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...whitepaper.pdf

There is no standard HDR10 display adaptation (i.e. no HDR10 display adaptation specification or no HDR10 reference implementation), hence "half baked HDR10".
There are more or less smart and more or less dumb HDR10 display adaptations.


http://www.dvinfo.net/article/show_r...014-day-5.html

Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!

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post #454 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 08:56 AM
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Right, there is a long list of differences between DV and hdr10.

I mean what's the difference between hdr10 and what Apple is doing with that hdr layer?
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post #455 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
The difference is the Dolby Vision frame-by-frame dynamic metadata, generated at the content post-production time, which are input parameters passed to the Dolby Vision tone/gamut mapping program or Dolby Vision display adaptation program or Dolby Vision Display Management.

Using the dynamic metadata, this Dolby Vision display adaptation adapts the decoded video signal to a target display, i.e. outputs a video signal suitable to a TV with lesser color volume capabilities.


https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...whitepaper.pdf

There is no standard HDR10 display adaptation (i.e. no HDR10 display adaptation specification or no HDR10 reference implementation), hence "half baked HDR10".
There are more or less smart and more or less dumb HDR10 display adaptations.


http://www.dvinfo.net/article/show_r...014-day-5.html
I think the poster was asking if there should be little/no difference in UHD HDR-10 and ATV Dolby Vision’s HDR-10 base layer based on your earlier post about Apple’s implementation as noted on their spec page - even though there may be an issue with the reality of this at the moment....
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post #456 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 09:29 AM
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As previously mentioned, a single-layer Dolby Vision signal excluding dynamic metadata is similar to an HDR10 signal.

A media player like the AppleTV 4K has to output HDR10 signal and HDR10 static metadata to an HDR10 TV.

Is the AppleTV 4K able to properly remove all Dolby Vision dynamic metadata and create HDR10 static metadata?
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post #457 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
Is the AppleTV 4K able to properly remove all Dolby Vision dynamic metadata and create HDR10 static metadata?
I really think what the Apple TV 4K is doing for HDR10 tvs is that it converts Dolby Vision movies to 4K SDR and applies its fake HDR processing. Also I think on HDR10 movies it downsamples to 4K SDR and applies its fake HDR processing. Thats is why DV and HDR10 movies look like they have a greyish look to them. Its better to have 4K SDR on all time on HDR10 tvs until Apple fixes the HDR issues and add automatic native mode.
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post #458 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 09:52 AM
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I really think what the Apple TV 4K is doing for HDR10 tvs is that it converts Dolby Vision movies to 4K SDR and applies its fake HDR processing. Also I think on HDR10 movies it downsamples to 4K SDR and applies its fake HDR processing. Thats is why DV and HDR10 movies look like they have a greyish look to them. Its better to have 4K SDR on all time on HDR10 tvs until Apple fixes the HDR issues and add automatic native mode.
Pretty clearly from the Apple design spec posted here, that is not what they intend to do. They have a base layer of HDR content and additional DV meta data on top of it.

That doesn't mean it it is working right in all cases. If we could select "native output" we could all have a lot more confidence (and better usability) of the system.

For example, while I can't say for sure, your experience sounds like some device after the ATV is not properly rendering the HDR content. A washed out look is what happens when HDR content is displayed in the rec709 bt1886 renderer.

But it's super hard to say for sure that's what you are experiencing.
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post #459 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
As previously mentioned, a single-layer Dolby Vision signal excluding dynamic metadata is similar to an HDR10 signal.

A media player like the AppleTV 4K has to output HDR10 signal and HDR10 static metadata to an HDR10 TV.

Is the AppleTV 4K able to properly remove all Dolby Vision dynamic metadata and create HDR10 static metadata?
"similar to" is my question. In what way is it different? I infer that what you are saying is it is a signal just like an HDR10 signal WITHOUT meta data included and that meta data has to be added in during the process of outputting the content?

Theoretically that should be very workable. In practice, it seems like another possible step where things could go wrong. But if it really works well and the final result is an HDR10 signal and meta data that is the same as a traditional (I'm using that word already??) HDR10 signal of the same content, we should be in good shape, in this respect.
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post #460 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
As previously mentioned, a single-layer Dolby Vision signal excluding dynamic metadata is similar to an HDR10 signal.

A media player like the AppleTV 4K has to output HDR10 signal and HDR10 static metadata to an HDR10 TV.

Is the AppleTV 4K able to properly remove all Dolby Vision dynamic metadata and create HDR10 static metadata?
I would think the player does not create the static metadata, but that should be graded and supplied by the content producer, no? The Apple TV should be passing through the graded HDR-10 layer - I have a tough time thinking content producers would spend all this money creating something only to have 23 different output players handling this conversation any way they pleased...

But I really don’t know...I would think the setting your ATV to hdr mode should flag the services to send the correctly graded hdr-10 layer minus the DV meta data. I mean, it ain’t happening yet, but if it’s just the wrong streams being sent it shouldn’t be a hard fix...

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post #461 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 03:48 PM
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According to info posted here, Apple indicate they are using DV profile 5, which doesn't have an HDR10 layer but does have a more generic HDR layer.

Whether that generic HDR layer has enough meta data to build HDR10 metadata is not clear.
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post #462 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 04:15 PM
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Pretty much everyone has pushed back on VP 9 since it's clearly designed to serve Google above all. Not surprising I suppose but maybe not smart of them in the long run either. Having said that maybe Apple should just go ahead and implement it for their own sake.
I don't think you guys understand the distinction between VP9 and H.265. VP9 is an open and royalty-free codec. H.265 usage requires licensing fees and this alone is a major reason why its usage is not as ubiquitous as would be good for consumers in areas like the web. There is a next-gen codec in development by several groups called AV1 (which is itself largely a successor to VP9). The overwhelming desire of all these developers is to produce a royalty-free codec to avoid all the hassles and roadblocks that H.265 requires.

Support for VP9 is entirely on Apple. Google hasn't thrown up any hurdles here. And you can be sure that Apple's decision not to support this FREE codec is entirely their own.

I'm an Android user and like Google a lot, but I follow the facts and am intrigued by iTune's potential 4K quality dominance. If some of you guys are inclined to like all things Apple, fine, but don't throw Google under the bus without understanding what's going on.
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post #463 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 04:21 PM
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Yeah, it smells like a strong arm/political/battle between Apple and Google at this point.

VP9 wouldn't be "free" in the sense of taking no effort by Apple. But the cost of a license is not the issue
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post #464 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 04:50 PM
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I don't think you guys understand the distinction between VP9 and H.265. VP9 is an open and royalty-free codec. H.265 usage requires licensing fees and this alone is a major reason why its usage is not as ubiquitous as would be good for consumers in areas like the web. There is a next-gen codec in development by several groups called AV1 (which is itself largely a successor to VP9). The overwhelming desire of all these developers is to produce a royalty-free codec to avoid all the hassles and roadblocks that H.265 requires.
Support for VP9 is entirely on Apple. Google hasn't thrown up any hurdles here. And you can be sure that Apple's decision not to support this FREE codec is entirely their own.
I'm an Android user and like Google a lot, but I follow the facts and am intrigued by iTune's potential 4K quality dominance. If some of you guys are inclined to like all things Apple, fine, but don't throw Google under the bus without understanding what's going on.
Why do you assume people don't understand that?
Google says VP 9 is open source just as they do Android but Googles definition of open source often doesn't fit the standard definitions. Google does not typically allow contribution to source and does not provide all source code in most cases for example.
Free is not always free when it comes to control and user privacy concerns. Free can quickly come expensive in other ways.
This is one reason why Apple and many other companies do not want to use VP 9 but prefer HEVC/H265. They don't trust Google to be the steward of VP 9. They also assume any Google product is going to have privacy issues for their customers which is a good assumption to make.
HEVC/H.265 also has better compression rates and the broadcast and film industry strongly prefers HEVC.
Google designed VP 9 (actually they bought the company that developed it) specifically for compressing You Tube videos but HEVC/H.265 is what is used to compress most 4K movies and TV shows and other media.
Your TV also has to support these standards for them to work on it.
Again many other companies besides Apple don't support VP 9 and want nothing to do with any Google standards.
There are pages of pro's and con's to both formats but the end result is the user pay the price when companies use different formats and don't support the others.
As to AV 1 that is supported by a handful of people while HEVC was created by a consortium of all the big players and is considered more mature than VP 9 that was developed by one company. AV 1 is unlikely to go anywhere and Google is now working on VP 10 but in isolation of course.
Neither VP 9 or AV 1 are good for real time encoding which is another reason they are considered immature.
I could go on and on but you get the drift, it's not as simple as you make it out to be.
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post #465 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SoCalCyclist View Post
Why do you assume people don't understand that?
Google says VP 9 is open source just as they do Android but Googles definition of open source often doesn't fit the standard definitions. Google does not typically allow contribution to source and does not provide all source code in most cases for example.
Free is not always free when it comes to control and user privacy concerns. Free can quickly come expensive in other ways.
This is one reason why Apple and many other companies do not want to use VP 9 but prefer HEVC/H265. They don't trust Google to be the steward of VP 9. They also assume any Google product is going to have privacy issues for their customers which is a good assumption to make.
HEVC/H.265 also has better compression rates and the broadcast and film industry strongly prefers HEVC.
Google designed VP 9 (actually they bought the company that developed it) specifically for compressing You Tube videos but HEVC/H.265 is what is used to compress most 4K movies and TV shows and other media.
Your TV also has to support these standards for them to work on it.
Again many other companies besides Apple don't support VP 9 and want nothing to do with any Google standards.
There are pages of pro's and con's to both formats but the end result is the user pay the price when companies use different formats and don't support the others.
As to AV 1 that is supported by a handful of people while HEVC was created by a consortium of all the big players and is considered more mature than VP 9 that was developed by one company. AV 1 is unlikely to go anywhere and Google is now working on VP 10 but in isolation of course.
Neither VP 9 or AV 1 are good for real time encoding which is another reason they are considered immature.
I could go on and on but you get the drift, it's not as simple as you make it out to be.
The latest information I can find online is that Google did start development on VP10, but decided to employ elements of it instead into AV1 and will never release VP10 in any form. Best as I can tell, AV1 is the current best hope for a quality royalty-free codec that can exceed H.265 efficiency.

I don't know much about the relative performance of VP9 vs. HEVC. AFAIK, it is comparable but a bit lesser in quality, perhaps. Obviously, H.265 it is the primary compression standard for disc and streaming-based media, nobody disputes that. Though isn't the presence of a quality, royalty-free codec a positive thing? As consumers, our primary concern is whether or not we can get ready and quality access to media. Loyalty to media-conglomerate-backed codecs like HEVC strikes me as the occupation of shareholders, not regular blokes that just want to watch movies.

Google certainly has its own financial interests at stake - an open-source codec powering YouTube means they don't have to pay royalties for each and every stream. That it benefits them doesn't change the fact that anyone can have access to their codec. Your assertion that usage of their codec somehow leeches end user data seems like needless fearmongering. Yes, we know that Google profits from gathering data, but let's not just throw accusations of instances of it without reasonable support.

Anyway, my point just is that VP9 is free for streaming device makers to implement. It's supported by every other streaming box out there. Apple's exclusion of it is deliberate and hostile to customers. That's my point and criticism.

If you know of any reason why implementation of VP9 support may be onerous, I'd be interested to read articles about the matter, but I have thus far seen no evidence of this. I haven't been able to find any mention of Google not releasing source code for VP9. AFAIK, some of the code is covered by Google-owned patents, but they provide free usage of those elements.
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post #466 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
The movies that I own on disc and also on iTunes have a difference in audio level. Both devices connected the same way. ATV and 203 directly to tv, and optical from tv to AVR. I have to crank up the audio for the iTunes version on the ATV.
If you are using optical for your audio, then you are only sending DD 5.1 to your AVR, right now you're making the TV convert the audio, so, try setting the ATV for DD 5.1 output, Settings>Video and Audio>Surround Sound> set to Dolby Digital 5.1, see if you get different results.
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In 50 words or less... Apple needs to make this device family friendly and they need to take it from a hobby to a full-scale business. UV compatibility, YouTube, Amazon, auto sync video & ATMOS. JMO.
UV isn't going to happen, but, you can use at least one ATV app for UV movies, the VUDU app, maybe another, I'm not sure. At this point you have to redeem on a computer, but, once you get them in your VUDU library you can access them on your ATV VUDU app. Google is responsible for the crappy iteration of YouTube on ATV, and they can make their VP9 videos work on ATV if they want to, give Google feedback for that. (YT will play up to 1440p). Amazon app coming sometime between today and Dec 31st. Give apple feedback on auto sync video and Atmos: https://www.apple.com/feedback/appletv.html
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Originally Posted by jwort93 View Post
There are unfortunately no 24Hz 1080p modes. The only 24Hz modes are 4K SDR 24Hz, 4K HDR 24Hz, and 4K Dolby Vision 24Hz. So if you want 1080p content to play in 24Hz, you will unfortunately have to stick with the upscaling that the Apple TV provides. Everything else you have said is correct though.
I've seen screen shots of 1080p 24Hz as a choice, so, it depends on what the ATV 4K is connected to.
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Anyone know whether the HDMI output is the standard 18 Gbps or is it capped lower?
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Originally Posted by liquix View Post
I have seen talks of making sure a proper HDMI cable is used. I am currently going from an ATV3, Non 4K Receiver, and non 4K TV, to an ATV 4K, 4K Pass through receiver, and 4K TV.

Would I need updated HDMI cables from the ATV to Receiver and Receiver to TV? What is a recommended cable to get to ensure all 4K HDR capabilities work?
I doubt it's capped off below 18Gb, as Apple is sending 60Hz DV video out and sending an LPCM audio with it.

(From OWC): “Apple's doc recommends cables with a "Dolby Vision mark" (tested with 4K Apple TV they say). Their example 2M Belkin Ultra High Speed cable is $29.95 at Apple's store and the specs list "up to 48 Gbps" - that's the (future) HDMI 2.1 spec rate. (The Apple TV 4K's specs show an HDMI 2.0a port - which is up to 18Gbps. I don't know of any retail HDMI 2.1 spec products yet. Hopefully a 4K Apple TV teardown shows what chip they're using.)
I've never seen a 'Dolby Vision' marked (or 48Gbps) HDMI cable (yet), but for current HDMI 2.0x 4K/UHD HDR/DV, a (HDMI 2.0x/18GHz) Certified Premium HDMI cable (6ft/as short as possible) worked reliably with a 4K/UHD HDR10 60P movie disc - Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk. (The only UHD/60P movie disc to date and a good stress test for cables, as other HDR10 and all DV discs to date are 24P.) IMHO Apple should have included a cable. (Some 4K UHD Players do, as it helps minimize returns due to cable related problems.) 6ft Certified Premium HDMI 2.0/18Gbps cables are under $10 retail at some sellers. There's also a free HDMI Premium Cable Authentication App to verify the code on the box label.)”
see: About 4K, HDR, and Dolby Vision on your Apple TV 4K
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208074

So, if you're using a cable that is not certified, then, it'll be hit or miss whether it works or not, (if it's not quality then the cable might not have 18Gb throughput).
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If I set the ATV to DV and watch a HDR labelled movie on my E6, which can do DV, the highlights are blown out with very little detail in the brightest parts of the scenes. When I set the ATV to HDR, just the opposite. Image looks a lot better. It should not be that way, as with my LG, DV discs on my OPPO 203 look better than the HDR 10 version when played on my Panny 900. DV HDR should prevent the clipping on my E6 which it does on disc, and via the netflix and vudu apps on the tv.

When I watch DV labelled movies on ATV, they dont look as bad, but still have more clipping than the same DV versions on VUDU.
The 2016 LG OLEDS cannot do DV at 60Hz, so, if you want to use DV you'll have to manually set your ATV for 30Hz DV or 24Hz DV. The reason it looks better w/HDR setting is your TV does HDR10 at 60Hz. (I'm making assumptions, sorry).

What apple says about it:

"*If your TV doesn’t support HDR10 or Dolby Vision at 60Hz (50Hz in Europe), Apple TV 4K can use these formats at 30Hz (25Hz in Europe), but you'll need to manually select a lower refresh rate in Settings > Video and Audio. Using lower refresh rates can result in poor performance, or choppy video when navigating on the home screen, within apps, or playing games. In these cases, Apple recommends lowering resolution to 1080p at 60Hz (50Hz in Europe) instead, and letting your television upscale to 4K. You will still be able to use HDR10 and Dolby Vision at these resolutions." source: “Find and watch movies with 4K, HDR, or Dolby Vision” https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207949
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Originally Posted by jacektv View Post
HDR doesn't work with my 65EF9500 OLED. Anybody else on LG OLEDs?
I don't think that LG OLED has HDR capability. If it does not say compatible with HDR10 or DolbyVision anywhere then it is not.

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Originally Posted by Tatmaster View Post
Anyway, my point just is that VP9 is free for streaming device makers to implement. It's supported by every other streaming box out there. Apple's exclusion of it is deliberate and hostile to customers. That's my point and criticism. If you know of any reason why implementation of VP9 support may be onerous, I'd be interested to read articles about the matter, but I have thus far seen no evidence of this. I haven't been able to find any mention of Google not releasing source code for VP9. AFAIK, some of the code is covered by Google-owned patents, but they provide free usage of those elements.
The issue specific to VP9 from an Apple perspective other than giving Google control of a codec that otherwise would be controlled by a consortium (MPEG) that is not competing with other companies as Google does is the simple fact the a court may find that VP9 infringes upon MPEG patents.

So, from an Apple perspective, the value of paying the royalty for HEVC is far greater than risking development using a codec that is potentially at risk.

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post #468 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatmaster View Post
The latest information I can find online is that Google did start development on VP10, but decided to employ elements of it instead into AV1 and will never release VP10 in any form. Best as I can tell, AV1 is the current best hope for a quality royalty-free codec that can exceed H.265 efficiency.

I don't know much about the relative performance of VP9 vs. HEVC. AFAIK, it is comparable but a bit lesser in quality, perhaps. Obviously, H.265 it is the primary compression standard for disc and streaming-based media, nobody disputes that. Though isn't the presence of a quality, royalty-free codec a positive thing? As consumers, our primary concern is whether or not we can get ready and quality access to media. Loyalty to media-conglomerate-backed codecs like HEVC strikes me as the occupation of shareholders, not regular blokes that just want to watch movies.

Google certainly has its own financial interests at stake - an open-source codec powering YouTube means they don't have to pay royalties for each and every stream. That it benefits them doesn't change the fact that anyone can have access to their codec. Your assertion that usage of their codec somehow leeches end user data seems like needless fearmongering. Yes, we know that Google profits from gathering data, but let's not just throw accusations of instances of it without reasonable support.

Anyway, my point just is that VP9 is free for streaming device makers to implement. It's supported by every other streaming box out there. Apple's exclusion of it is deliberate and hostile to customers. That's my point and criticism.

If you know of any reason why implementation of VP9 support may be onerous, I'd be interested to read articles about the matter, but I have thus far seen no evidence of this. I haven't been able to find any mention of Google not releasing source code for VP9. AFAIK, some of the code is covered by Google-owned patents, but they provide free usage of those elements.
I didn't say that the codec itself does it did but You Tube certainly does and so does Chrome and one of the reasons they don't want to support other codecs in other browsers is to get people to use Chrome. Chrome by the way is built in Web kit which was open sourced from...Apple.
Google developed VP 9 with no input and takes no contributions to the source plus does not provide all the source so who knows what is really in there. In that sense it does not meet the stand definitions of open source and neither does Android which gets into a whole other topic.
Google doesn't just profit from gathering data it's all they do. They are an ad company and the users of their products are the product.
Having said all that I can see Apple supporting it in Apple TV. They probably should. I'd have to check but it may also have to do with how they sandbox apps. I also didn't say it would be onerous.
But it's not accurate that all streaming devices support it. Some TVs with built in streaming apps don't and for the same reasons I outlined. But if you are a serious cord cutter you probably don't spend on your built ins streaming apps anyway.
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The issue specific to VP9 from an Apple perspective other than giving Google control of a codec that otherwise would be controlled by a consortium (MPEG) that is not competing with other companies as Google does is the simple fact the a court may find that VP9 infringes upon MPEG patents.
So, from an Apple perspective, the value of paying the royalty for HEVC is far greater than risking development using a codec that is potentially at risk.
Very good point. VP 9 is not nearly as comprehensive or mature as HEVC but it could certainly be the case. I'm sure it's being looked for and Google knows it.
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post #470 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 07:47 PM
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In speaking to a few people who know much more than I, it appears the hdr-10 base layer for Dolby Vision titles on ATV may have incorrect MAXCLL values (which define the maximum pixel brightness level in a title)...if too low, actual pixels above this value that do have data will be overly intense/blown out. This would seem to explain the conditions I’m seeing playing DV titles.

Brief explanation of some of the components of HDR...

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hdr-1...carlos-carmona

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post #471 of 630 Old 09-27-2017, 08:46 PM
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This is based on a device that reads the meta data or a guess based on visual results?
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post #472 of 630 Old 09-28-2017, 03:53 AM
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This is based on a device that reads the meta data or a guess based on visual results?
A friend who has a Lumagen Radiance Pro suggested a few things to look at with my Pro...first, it will report the maxcll...it also has a tool to analyze the actual pixel brightness level in any scene. With Star Trek Into Darkness the maxcll is listed as 1000, but in the scene where the Enterprise rises out of the water, there are pixel brightness values up to 2300 or so...
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Well my 64GB delivery got moved up 10 days to October-3, looking forward to using it.



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post #474 of 630 Old 09-28-2017, 05:17 AM
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A friend who has a Lumagen Radiance Pro suggested a few things to look at with my Pro...first, it will report the maxcll...it also has a tool to analyze the actual pixel brightness level in any scene. With Star Trek Into Darkness the maxcll is listed as 1000, but in the scene where the Enterprise rises out of the water, there are pixel brightness values up to 2300 or so...
Egads that's crazy. Of course most TVs ignore maxcll and use the same tone map for everything. But yes that could create issues just like those UHD disks with such crazy meta data.
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post #475 of 630 Old 09-28-2017, 06:06 AM
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I installed the 11.1 beta 1 update yesterday; no change in any of the conditions being discussed - not that I necessarily expected that so quickly...
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There’s no basis yet to say Apple designed this functionality (speaking about the Dolby Vision/hdr10 issue) - you are going way too far

It is quite plausible that the issue is more a) a bug and b) possibly the studio’s fault.

Much more information is needed to imply Apple designed something to not work correctly.

Multiple reviews have reported it, Apple has stated this is how the box was designed to work, and there are many reports on this board and others confirming it. In addition, I have observed both the DV/HDR10 and decoded audio behavior on an ATV4k purchased by a fellow engineer at work. The only way that streamed content in all native formats can be viewed can be view in their original format is to manually switch the ATV4k for each format, and that's absurd.
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I installed the 11.1 beta 1 update yesterday; no change in any of the conditions being discussed - not that I necessarily expected that so quickly...
Darn!

No ATMOS either?
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If you are using optical for your audio, then you are only sending DD 5.1 to your AVR, right now you're making the TV convert the audio, so, try setting the ATV for DD 5.1 output, Settings>Video and Audio>Surround Sound> set to Dolby Digital 5.1, see if you get different results.

UV isn't going to happen, but, you can use at least one ATV app for UV movies, the VUDU app, maybe another, I'm not sure. At this point you have to redeem on a computer, but, once you get them in your VUDU library you can access them on your ATV VUDU app. Google is responsible for the crappy iteration of YouTube on ATV, and they can make their VP9 videos work on ATV if they want to, give Google feedback for that. (YT will play up to 1440p). Amazon app coming sometime between today and Dec 31st. Give apple feedback on auto sync video and Atmos: https://www.apple.com/feedback/appletv.html

I've seen screen shots of 1080p 24Hz as a choice, so, it depends on what the ATV 4K is connected to.


I doubt it's capped off below 18Gb, as Apple is sending 60Hz DV video out and sending an LPCM audio with it.

(From OWC): “Apple's doc recommends cables with a "Dolby Vision mark" (tested with 4K Apple TV they say). Their example 2M Belkin Ultra High Speed cable is $29.95 at Apple's store and the specs list "up to 48 Gbps" - that's the (future) HDMI 2.1 spec rate. (The Apple TV 4K's specs show an HDMI 2.0a port - which is up to 18Gbps. I don't know of any retail HDMI 2.1 spec products yet. Hopefully a 4K Apple TV teardown shows what chip they're using.)
I've never seen a 'Dolby Vision' marked (or 48Gbps) HDMI cable (yet), but for current HDMI 2.0x 4K/UHD HDR/DV, a (HDMI 2.0x/18GHz) Certified Premium HDMI cable (6ft/as short as possible) worked reliably with a 4K/UHD HDR10 60P movie disc - Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk. (The only UHD/60P movie disc to date and a good stress test for cables, as other HDR10 and all DV discs to date are 24P.) IMHO Apple should have included a cable. (Some 4K UHD Players do, as it helps minimize returns due to cable related problems.) 6ft Certified Premium HDMI 2.0/18Gbps cables are under $10 retail at some sellers. There's also a free HDMI Premium Cable Authentication App to verify the code on the box label.)”
see: About 4K, HDR, and Dolby Vision on your Apple TV 4K
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208074

So, if you're using a cable that is not certified, then, it'll be hit or miss whether it works or not, (if it's not quality then the cable might not have 18Gb throughput).

The 2016 LG OLEDS cannot do DV at 60Hz, so, if you want to use DV you'll have to manually set your ATV for 30Hz DV or 24Hz DV. The reason it looks better w/HDR setting is your TV does HDR10 at 60Hz. (I'm making assumptions, sorry).

What apple says about it:

"*If your TV doesn’t support HDR10 or Dolby Vision at 60Hz (50Hz in Europe), Apple TV 4K can use these formats at 30Hz (25Hz in Europe), but you'll need to manually select a lower refresh rate in Settings > Video and Audio. Using lower refresh rates can result in poor performance, or choppy video when navigating on the home screen, within apps, or playing games. In these cases, Apple recommends lowering resolution to 1080p at 60Hz (50Hz in Europe) instead, and letting your television upscale to 4K. You will still be able to use HDR10 and Dolby Vision at these resolutions." source: “Find and watch movies with 4K, HDR, or Dolby Vision” https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207949

I don't think that LG OLED has HDR capability. If it does not say compatible with HDR10 or DolbyVision anywhere then it is not.
Agree with your statement on cables... Certified Premium HDMI 18Gbps cables and HDMI 2.0a are for 4k; HDMI 2.1 and 48Gbps cables are for 8k. I have a relatively long run (approx 32') and am using a 45' Monoprice Cabernet active cable and it works flawlessly- it is relatively heavy less flexible (I wouldn't call it stiff), and ARC works properly. I previously purchased a 50' Fiber HDMI cable which performed equally as well and was a lot thinner, but even though the manufacturer advertised it had ARC (if you need it you need to make sure the fiber optic cable has the additional copper conductors to implement this- not all do) , but unfortunately it didn't work at all, and I returned the cable to the manufacturer. Fiber cables are a lot more expensive too- $180 for 50'; can't remember what the Cabernet's cost $37.50 at the time I bought them- bought 2, 1 in use, 1 for a spare.
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post #479 of 630 Old 09-28-2017, 09:19 AM
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Multiple reviews have reported it, Apple has stated this is how the box was designed to work, and there are many reports on this board and others confirming it. In addition, I have observed both the DV/HDR10 and decoded audio behavior on an ATV4k purchased by a fellow engineer at work. The only way that streamed content in all native formats can be viewed can be view in their original format is to manually switch the ATV4k for each format, and that's absurd.
Lets not mix issues - the lack of native/source output is a design decision that they hopefully will address...

My focus has been on the DolbyVision HDR base layer issues, and there is no basis to say this is purposeful - or even in Apple's immediate control...that's all.
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post #480 of 630 Old 09-28-2017, 09:23 AM
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Darn!

No ATMOS either?
Didn't get a chance to check that, but I doubt it. Apple is very good at aggressively released updates shortly after the .0 public release, to knock off remaining known issues, address new long handing fruit, and optimize performance. Bigger ticket items generally take a little longer, and in the case of Atmos, this may be a studio/license related issue as much as possibly a technical one. We just don't know.

Same goes for the HDR layer in Dolby Vision. If this is how Apple is receiving the files, the studios likely have to address. If the ATV is calling for the wrong stream, or if Apple is involved in generating the base layer somehow, it is there issue to address...
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