Dune HD Pro 4K (Ultra) Thread - Page 111 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3301 of 5905 Old 09-13-2018, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post
I have a Z9S on the way and will be comparing them this weekend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakou View Post
Will be looking forward to your findings
Same here - look forward to a comparison.

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post #3302 of 5905 Old 09-14-2018, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jowicrt View Post
Mmm. I think there is a huge difference between a noticable stutter and a missing frame. A missing frame is 1000/24 = 42ms, unless there is a huge pan going on, i doubt you will notice that... a noticable stutter in my opinion is several hundreds of ms, maybe even half a second. That would be 12 missing frames or more.

My guess is people who notice stutters are experiencing network or throughput errors, or are watching bad material. Normal human beings don't notice a skipped frame once every 5 minutes... but maybe you do. That makes you very special.
I'd love to think I'm special, but I'm not the only one to notice a frame drop every 5 minutes. Nothing takes me out of watching a film faster than micro-stutter. That's why I create a custom resolution to get one frame drop every 1-2 hours with MadVR, otherwise with nVidia it's every 4 minutes, and I see almost every single one of them, unless the shot is static.

In fact one of the main reasons why I'm considering the 4K Dune Pro despite using my HTPC with MadVR for playback is because while I get no significant stutter in 2D with MadVR, I get at best one frame drop every 13 minutes in 3D (1080p23FP). That's not acceptable to me. A single frame dropped in a pan ruins the film for me.

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Originally Posted by halfelite View Post
I myself never notice microstutter unless I look for it. As I said earlier I could notice it if I did the math to find the location and watched for it in panning scenes. I know a few people that can spot it every time. I am just tired of people trying to cover up flaws of the device that could be fixed if they didn't try to hide them. OH FPS is not 100% I dont notice it lets blame it on the tv. Oh banding is only in test files lets say we dont see it in production content and hide it or blame it on the display. Why not let them be known and see if they can be fixed. So far the FPS and banding match identical to the zidoo so this points to a realtek issue more then a DUNE/Zidoo but maybe if everyone is vocal instead of hiding it behind I dont see it or its the displays problem they could push for a fix. People are paying a premium they should want a bit of perfection with that premium.
I agree 100% (except that I don't need to look for them so see micro-stutter), see above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
It looks like this will break 3D playback, hopefully they fix that in the final release of this update

The first beta version has the following known limitations, which are
expected to be addressed in future firmware versions.
- 3D playback is not supported. 3D discs can currently be played in
2D mode only (when the disc supports 2D mode).
Hi Jason, please could you test if the new f/w supports MKV 3D or if it's still a no go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jowicrt View Post
Tested some bluray movies and some bluray TV series discs, works ok with menu's
A collection of DTS music demo bluray discs does start with menu, but there is no cursor, so you can't make a selection...

This firmware does make the unit more usable; but there is a lot of work to be done. But i'm happy to see there is good progress!
Thanks, here is the list of what I'm waiting to be confirmed before I jump:

  1. Full menu support for UHD Bluray. That's one of the main reasons why I want the 4K Pro, along with the 3D playback: menu support for UHD Bluray for TV series or complex extras, so I don't have to spend ages ripping each episode/file and identifying which is which. Until the Dune Pro supports UHD Bluray menus, the 4K Solo is a better buy as there is no micro-stutter with the solo (I don't need the 4K Pro to play UHD Movies, I use my HTPC with MadVR for that).
  2. Support for MKV 3D. I have all my 3D discs ripped in this format so they can be played with MadVR, I don't really want to re-rip everything in ISOs just to get the menus (and less stutter).
  3. Micro stutter resolved. That's the #1 deal breaker for me at the moment if I ever needed this to be my main player.
  4. Proper forwarding of HDR metadata so that the Vertex can select correct calibration / custom curve on the JVC. It will also be important for the auto-tonemapping to work in the new JVCs. Please could you remind us what the issue was, and check if it's been solved with this new f/w?
  5. I think I read somewhere that there was some issue with bitstreaming some audio formats as well. Please could anyone confirm if there is still an issue when bitstreaming audio?
  6. Standby working with IP so you can resume with IP control. I use iRule, there's no way I can use this is I can't switch it off and back on with IP control.
  7. Next chapter / Previous chapter not working. Hard to believe it's still not working after all that time.

I'm really hoping that the next non-beta f/w addresses all these issues.

If someone could confirm how many of these issues are addressed with the new beta f/w, I could bring the list down
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post #3303 of 5905 Old 09-14-2018, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kadqs View Post
With current firmware version, first with BD menu support, there are some BDs that do not play. We see ofr example problems with some EU versions of Avatar movie.
These titiles works fine with Solo4k or Duo4k (Sigma Dunes). Dune knows that, and will improve. Same cases we had at the begining of Sigma models with software BD-menu support.
I've got a handfull of these discs, DTS Music demo discs: http://mqs.link/dts-blu-ray-music-de...dts-hd-ma-5-1/
Volume 10,11,12,13,14,15,16 etc. On none of them the menu works... can you pass this to Dune?
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post #3304 of 5905 Old 09-14-2018, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jowicrt View Post
I've got a handfull of these discs, DTS Music demo discs: http://mqs.link/dts-blu-ray-music-de...dts-hd-ma-5-1/
Volume 10,11,12,13,14,15,16 etc. On none of them the menu works... can you pass this to Dune?
Same here, I also have the Dolby Atmos discs that played fine on the Solo but don't play on the 4K Pro. Basically Avatar and all the DTS/Dolby Atmos demo discs are the only ones that won't play on this unit.

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post #3305 of 5905 Old 09-14-2018, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jowicrt View Post
I've got a handfull of these discs, DTS Music demo discs: http://mqs.link/dts-blu-ray-music-de...dts-hd-ma-5-1/
Volume 10,11,12,13,14,15,16 etc. On none of them the menu works... can you pass this to Dune?
Just an observation, but.....

The spec for these titles states :
BD-Java: No

The latest beta firmware change log states :
BD-J is fully supported and compatibility with various discs is
currently already quite (up to about 95% according to tests performed
so far)
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post #3306 of 5905 Old 09-14-2018, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Whirlpool0548 View Post
Just an observation, but.....

The spec for these titles states :
BD-Java: No

The latest beta firmware change log states :
BD-J is fully supported and compatibility with various discs is
currently already quite (up to about 95% according to tests performed
so far)

You are misreading the Notes All retail discs have bluray menus but not all blurays have BD-j menus. There is basically HDMV menus these look like your standard DVD menus from years past no animation just buttons and pictures. Then there is BD-J menus which offer a bit of animation and are interactive. 990% of retail discs contain either BDJ/BD live menus. some very old titles and indie flicks and such are HDMV. HDMV is the easiest menu support and if you have BDJ you should have HDMV as you basically use HDMV to load the BDJ code
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post #3307 of 5905 Old 09-14-2018, 11:39 AM
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[QUOTE=halfelite;56809226]You are misreading the Notes All retail discs have bluray menus but not all blurays have BD-j menus. There is basically HDMV menus these look like your standard DVD menus from years past no animation just buttons and pictures. Then there is BD-J menus which offer a bit of animation and are interactive. 990% of retail discs contain either BDJ/BD live menus. some very old titles and indie flicks and such are HDMV. HDMV is the easiest menu support and if you have BDJ you should have HDMV as you basically use HDMV to load the BDJ code[/QUOTE


Blu-ray DVDs I've tried (so far), menus work OK.
Standard DVDs I've tried (so far), menus work OK.


Any that don't work, I'll report directly to Dune.
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post #3308 of 5905 Old 09-14-2018, 02:44 PM
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Do many people use the SDR to HDR?

I think its great although I do think near black performance isn't quite as good as normal but you need to be up close to see any difference.

I would love people's opinions.

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post #3309 of 5905 Old 09-14-2018, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasjw View Post
Do many people use the SDR to HDR?

I think its great although I do think near black performance isn't quite as good as normal but you need to be up close to see any difference.

I would love people's opinions.

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yes, that's why I prefer watching hd material on the dune as opposed to the oppo 203. I also find hdr to be brighter on the dune then the oppo 203.

you do loose detail on the dune because it is quite bright as opposed to the oppo 203, solo 4k, apple tv4k.

I would upload a test pattern result but my phone camera does not capture what I can see in front of me.


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post #3310 of 5905 Old 09-14-2018, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Hi Jason, please could you test if the new f/w supports MKV 3D or if it's still a no go?

Manni, hi no-go on 3D MKV. I don't expect Dune will enable this for whatever reason, they never did on the 4K solo before they stopped the firmware updates for it last year. It's odd because the identical hardware Zidoo X9s can play 3D MKV. I still use the 4K solo for 3D BD ISO as it does a great job with BD Menu and has the subtitles in the foreground vs. background on the Dune 4K Pro / Zidoo X9s - assuming this is a limitation of their chipset / SDK.


for 3D MKV I still use my ancient but very reliable Mede8ter, it handles all the 3D + ATMOS remuxes and haven't seen any skipped frames after watching for it carefully.
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post #3311 of 5905 Old 09-14-2018, 07:45 PM
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Anyone else getting complete lock up/freeze during playback? I've tested with a standard BluRay and UHD rip and it completely freezes at random times and I have to unplug to get it back up. Impossible to finish a movie without at least 3 instances. I've done a system restore and it still freezes.

Playing from NAS via wired connection.

Any ideas?

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post #3312 of 5905 Old 09-14-2018, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakou View Post
Will be looking forward to your findings
Quote:
Originally Posted by blenky View Post
Same here - look forward to a comparison.
FWIW - Here's a link to a review of the Dune HD PRO 4K done by Media Player Reviews...

http://mediaplayers.gr/dune-hd-pro-4k/


If you read through the review, they will reference the Zidoo X9S and that the units are "siblings" manufactured at the same factory. Actually, it's Zidoo's factory as Zidoo is both an ODM/OEM custom manufacture.

Near the end of the article, the reviewer makes some comparisons of the X9S and PRO 4K.

Please don't take this as any disparaging position against Dune. I like Dune and own a D1, Solo, and PRO 4K.

My point is that the Zidoo X9S has been around for 2 years now. In the next weeks Zidoo will replace it with the Z9S using the Realtek RTD1296 SoC.

Zidoo has released 18 firmware updates over 24 months for the X9S so they have been somewhat aggressive with it's development and refinement. I do think it's reasonable to look at the X9S to understand what maybe possible and what limitations the PRO 4K may offer.
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post #3313 of 5905 Old 09-14-2018, 08:37 PM
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@b curry

Thanks for the input.
I do agree with you regarding zidoo. It's just that many have mentioned the video stuttering that it suffers from and this is worrying to me. On the other hand I still have not found any conclusive info whether the Dune also suffers from stuttering. I'm now waiting for the new zidoo z9s to see if the stuttering issue has been ironed out with the newer Realtek RTD1296 SoC. Again, my main interest is to find a decent player that can deliver a very good 4k HDR picture from mkv files (in 2D) with Atmos (bitstreamed to the avr), played from a usb/hdd.

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post #3314 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post
Anyone else getting complete lock up/freeze during playback? I've tested with a standard BluRay and UHD rip and it completely freezes at random times and I have to unplug to get it back up. Impossible to finish a movie without at least 3 instances. I've done a system restore and it still freezes.

Playing from NAS via wired connection.

Any ideas?
No, never had this issue with the Dune Pro 4K as the cause, even with the previous firmware.
But, yes I’ve had this issue. Similar to the way you describe it, but if I waited 30 secs, playback resumed.

My shares are hosted on a usb 3 hard drive attached to a Server running a Windows O/S. (wired network)
I had a freezing issue caused by a usb drive reset. Checked the windows event log. The issue was caused by uaspstor causing the drive reset.

This is a known issue on Windows, the effect (random 30 sec freeze)
Check if there is a known freeze issue with the NAS.

After fixing, I’ve never had the issue and the Pro 4K was never the cause.

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post #3315 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 01:07 AM
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Manni, hi no-go on 3D MKV. I don't expect Dune will enable this for whatever reason, they never did on the 4K solo before they stopped the firmware updates for it last year. It's odd because the identical hardware Zidoo X9s can play 3D MKV. I still use the 4K solo for 3D BD ISO as it does a great job with BD Menu and has the subtitles in the foreground vs. background on the Dune 4K Pro / Zidoo X9s - assuming this is a limitation of their chipset / SDK.


for 3D MKV I still use my ancient but very reliable Mede8ter, it handles all the 3D + ATMOS remuxes and haven't seen any skipped frames after watching for it carefully.
Thanks Jason,

That’s weird, I was hoping it would be supported precisely because it’s the same hardware as the Zidoo.

Maybe @kadqs could let us know if mkv 3D support is on the roadmap or not (as well as fixes for any of the issues in my list above)?

Thanks also for anyone who could confirm if some issues have already been fixed in the current beta f/w.

I don’t want a Zidoo because I want mymovies compatibility and IP control with the Dune command set, but I might forget about getting a Dune Pro 4K if there is no fix in sight for the issues I’ve listed.

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post #3316 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 01:15 AM
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@b curry

Thanks for the input.
I do agree with you regarding zidoo. It's just that many have mentioned the video stuttering that it suffers from and this is worrying to me. On the other hand I still have not found any conclusive info whether the Dune also suffers from stuttering. I'm now waiting for the new zidoo z9s to see if the stuttering issue has been ironed out with the newer Realtek RTD1296 SoC. Again, my main interest is to find a decent player that can deliver a very good 4k HDR picture from mkv files (in 2D) with Atmos (bitstreamed to the avr), played from a usb/hdd.
Other users have reported this issue (and are even able to predict when it will occur).
The only stuttering issue caused by the Pro 4K was non seamless transition between m2ts files.
I reported this issue to Dune. It’s fixed in the latest firmware.

I haven’t seen any other stuttering issues caused by the Pro 4k playing exclusively original BDMV folders
Maybe the issue is more noticeable with mkv.

The only way to resolve this is for comparison tests to be run on both players.
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post #3317 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Whirlpool0548 View Post
Other users have reported this issue (and are even able to predict when it will occur).
The only stuttering issue caused by the Pro 4K was non seamless transition between m2ts files.
I reported this issue to Dune. It’s fixed in the latest firmware.

I haven’t seen any other stuttering issues caused by the Pro 4k playing exclusively original BDMV folders
Maybe the issue is more noticeable with mkv.

The only way to resolve this is for comparison tests to be run on both players.
Thanks for confirming that the stutter due to seamless branching is fixed in the last f/w.

I think there are two stutter issues though.

The one above, fixed, and a micro-stutter issue at 23p reported by @markswift2003 (I think we are equally sensitive to it).

Maybe he could comment and let us know if it's fixed, both in 2D and 3D, and if it's both on BDMV and mkv or just on the latter?

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post #3318 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks for confirming that the stutter due to seamless branching is fixed in the last f/w.

I think there are two stutter issues though.

The one above, fixed, and a micro-stutter issue at 23p reported by @markswift2003 (I think we are equally sensitive to it).

Maybe he could comment and let us know if it's fixed, both in 2D and 3D, and if it's both on BDMV and mkv or just on the latter?
It would be useful if you could confirm whether you see the micro stutter issue with mkv.
I believe markswift saw the issue with mkv.

If the issue occurs only with mkv, then maybe the fact that mkv is compressed could be significant.
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post #3319 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 02:44 AM
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It would be useful if you could confirm whether you see the micro stutter issue with mkv.
I believe markswift saw the issue with mkv.

If the issue occurs only with mkv, then maybe the fact that mkv is compressed could be significant.
I don't have a 4K Pro. There are still too many issues to be solved before I can consider ordering one to test. It feels more lika an alpha than a beta f/w to me, given the reports of crashes, the issues listed above and the still very limited feature set. I have a 30 days return window, I'll only buy when there is a f/w adressing all the known issues.

mkvs are NOT compressed (at least those Mark and I would be watching). They are 1:1 rips from original UHD Blurays (or blurays), usually with makemkv, with picture and sound untouched (no conversion/compression). They are far less likely to stutter than BDMV because there is no seamless branching between m2ts files on the fly (it's just one single mkv file). They also often need less bandwidth because unused tracks are discarded.

But again stutter due to seamless branching and micro-stutter with 23p content every x minutes due to incorrect 23.976hz support are different issues, as it stutter due to network performance issues.

I am only talking about micro-stutter issue with 23p content.

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post #3320 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I don't have a 4K Pro. There are still too many issues to be solved before I can consider ordering one to test. It feels more lika an alpha than a beta f/w to me, given the reports of crashes, the issues listed above and the still very limited feature set. I have a 30 days return window, I'll only buy when there is a f/w adressing all the known issues.

mkvs are NOT compressed (at least those Mark and I would be watching). They are 1:1 rips from original UHD Blurays, with picture and sound untouched. They are far less likely to stutter than BDMV because there is no seamless branching on the fly (it's just one file). They also often need less bandwidth because unused tracks are discarded.
It would be useful to report what a speed test gives for one of your mkv, also what bitrate you see reported on playback.

Having used the Pro 4K since it was introduced for DVD, HD blu-ray and UHD blu-ray my experience is :

1. DVD playback with the release firmware was poor (annoying stutter on panning). Fixed in the latest beta firmware.
2. Stutter on movies with multiple m2ts files. Fixed in the latest beta firmware.
3. No blu-ray menus. Menus available with the latest beta firmware on the HD blu-ray BDMV folders I have tried so far.
4. Menu functionality promised for UHD blu-ray.

My Pro 4K has never had a crash a crash, so can’t comment on that. With the release firmware I had maybe one or two dropouts during playback, but none with the latest beta and I am using it extensively.

I have reported a fault to Dune that if (play menu) is used the elapsed time on the front display remains at 0:00 and the time search feature from the remote does not bring up the time search dialog.
If play lite is used (on HD blu-ray and UHD blu-ray, both functions work correctly.

Image and audio quality are excellent and even though I had HDR working with the Solo, I wouldn’t go back to using it because it was a compromise solution, tone mapping was inaccurate.
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post #3321 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Whirlpool0548 View Post
It would be useful to report what a speed test gives for one of your mkv, also what bitrate you see reported on playback.

Having used the Pro 4K since it was introduced for DVD, HD blu-ray and UHD blu-ray my experience is :

1. DVD playback with the release firmware was poor (annoying stutter on panning). Fixed in the latest beta firmware.
2. Stutter on movies with multiple m2ts files. Fixed in the latest beta firmware.
3. No blu-ray menus. Menus available with the latest beta firmware on the HD blu-ray BDMV folders I have tried so far.
4. Menu functionality promised for UHD blu-ray.

My Pro 4K has never had a crash a crash, so can’t comment on that. With the release firmware I had maybe one or two dropouts during playback, but none with the latest beta and I am using it extensively.

I have reported a fault to Dune that if (play menu) is used the elapsed time on the front display remains at 0:00 and the time search feature from the remote does not bring up the time search dialog.
If play lite is used (on HD blu-ray and UHD blu-ray, both functions work correctly.

Image and audio quality are excellent and even though I had HDR working with the Solo, I wouldn’t go back to using it because it was a compromise solution, tone mapping was inaccurate.
Thanks for the list above, that still doesn't answer all the issues listed in my earlier post.

Also I have no idea what you are talking about regarding mkvs. The bitrate will change with each title, depending on the amount of compression on the disc. But mkvs are NOT compressed anymore than the disc, unless you remux them. You seem to be confused between 1:1 mkvs made with makemkv (there is zero compression compared to the original disc, the video and audio tracks selected are bit identical, except for the dolby vision layer that mkvs don't support, but the HDR10 layer and the HD audio tracks are untouched. So the amount of compression/bandwidth changes according to the way the title was mastered, and only that) and remuxes mkvs.

Some people remux discs to save room and create smaller files using handbrake or similar. These are still mkvs, but they are heavily compressed and do not show the original content, only a compressed version.

The container (mkv) has NOTHING to do with the amount of compression in the video/audio track. You can have mkvs with the exact same video/audio quality as the original disc or the BDMV/ISO, and mkv with the worst quality, as well as anything in between. BDMVs or ISOs can also be heavily compressed by the way if they have been made with say DVDfab using any amount of compression to make them fit on a smaller media.

So doing a test speed on a single title isn't going to tell you anything if the mkv is a 1:1 rip from the disc, as mine (and I expect Mark's) are.

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post #3322 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jakou View Post
@b curry

Thanks for the input.
I do agree with you regarding zidoo. It's just that many have mentioned the video stuttering that it suffers from and this is worrying to me. On the other hand I still have not found any conclusive info whether the Dune also suffers from stuttering. I'm now waiting for the new zidoo z9s to see if the stuttering issue has been ironed out with the newer Realtek RTD1296 SoC. Again, my main interest is to find a decent player that can deliver a very good 4k HDR picture from mkv files (in 2D) with Atmos (bitstreamed to the avr), played from a usb/hdd.
I have not experienced stuttering with the X9S however, that does not mean it isn't there. I spoke with Zidoo last week via email (their service department will actually respond) and they indicated another new firmware very soon. The last release offered was mid July this year with an additional undocumented release in an unofficial way in the past week.

I'm not holding my breath for any changes in PQ with any new boxes using the RTD1296 SoC. It's well documented that the RTD1296 uses the same CPU/GPU, that is the Cortex A53 processor, ARM Mali-T820MP3 GPU, and the same H.265/VP9 video engine as found in the RTD1295. The change is a larger physical package and support for more peripheral interfaces; RGMII (Gigabit Ethernet) interface, one more USB 3.0 port, one extra SATA interface, and offers higher DDR bandwidth. The PCIe interface would also allow you to use more than just two SATA drives.

I think one will have to wait for something past the RTD1296 if it requires a hardware improvement to address any of these issues.
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post #3323 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks for confirming that the stutter due to seamless branching is fixed in the last f/w.

I think there are two stutter issues though.

The one above, fixed, and a micro-stutter issue at 23p reported by @markswift2003 (I think we are equally sensitive to it).

Maybe he could comment and let us know if it's fixed, both in 2D and 3D, and if it's both on BDMV and mkv or just on the latter?
Hey Manni, nice to hear from you,


As you rightly say, I now rip with MakeMKV to .mkv only and remove all the streams I don't want (subtitles, extra audio etc) so I'm left with a simple remux with Video, Audio, Subs for foreign parts (I hesitate to use the word "forced" although I do set the default and forced flag on them) and chapters.


If I deem the film worthy, it will remain as a remux on the NAS drives. However, on many films, once I've watched it, I'll then encode it with StaxRip (I've set up a dedicated encode PC which will encode a UHD Remux in hardware in about 45 minutes and I can get a say 60gig film down to say 25-30gigs with no discernible drop in quality).


I'm afraid I haven't tried any BDMV rips, but since it's the same file in a different container, and in the case of BDMVs, several containers, I would expect MKV to perform better. That's logically at least, and I appreciate logic rarely translates to fact in this world! So at some point I must try a BDMV rip.


Also, I'm afraid I don't use 3D at all, simply because I don't like it.


So as far as micro-stutters and file bitrate goes, in my case, whether the file is a 60Mb/s remux or a 30Mb/s encode seems to have no bearing on the stutter.


I don't believe it is my network which is gigabit - 4 Netgear Prosafe managed hubs as a backbone and several Netgear Prosafe "dumb" hubs on spurs, and the route from my media players to the NAS drives is though a single managed hub.


I don't believe the problem is HDMI - although my HDMI between Amp (Denon 8500) and PJ (JVC 7000) is 15M and 12 years old (!) it will pass 12-bit 4:4:4 at 4K23 (450MHz) without batting an eyelid - I used to own rather a large company doing both domestic and commercial large scale installs and we used to regularly use 60M HDMI runs (made by the same company) all the time - admittedly this was in the 1080p days, and I've always wondered when my cable will bottleneck, but it just hasn't happened yet.


What has made a discernible difference is switching protocols from NFS to SMB. I read something a while ago on another forum - think it might have been a Zidoo one, and it's something I'd never considered before given the lack of overhead and brute simplicity of NFS. However, I tried SMB and it made an immediate difference.


So remember I said it's one of those things you're not quite sure you see, but if you have to ask yourself, then you definitely did, well the instances of "did I just see that?" have diminished to the point that I almost want to use the Dune over the Shield (on which I've NEVER seen a stutter btw!).


So on to the last firmware update.


Firstly, I was bitterly disappointed with it, particularly after such a long wait.


Ok, they've made inroads into BD menu, but they haven't addressed more fundamental problems -


HDR SEI messages still persist into menus (won't affect everyone I know)


HDR to SDR is still the same - gamma is way off - about 0.6 in my estimation, so unless you can apply a gamma curve of 1.6 (you and I can!) it is unusable.


Skip+ & - still don't work - there's no excuse for that!


IP control is rendered useless because standby still disables the network card (I have a nasty feeling that's a hardware restriction though) - I know a hybrid solution is easy enough, but it's just not elegant.


It still clips black - from memory, I think it was at 2%


And micro-stutters - I'll be dead honest, since the latest firmware, I've been using the Shield to stop becoming annoyed at the Dune, but I will use the Dune to watch my next film and let you know.


Anecdotally, I did watch T2 Trainspotting the other night in the early hours on the Dune and I did not notice any micro-stutter. I was however, extremely drunk, so that observation cannot be relied upon.


Mark
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post #3324 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 05:50 AM
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Hi Mark,

Thanks for the very detailed reply. It would be unexpected if SMB vs NFS was to make a difference with 23p micro-stutter (due to a frame dropped/repeated at regular interval), but as long a the issue is solved, who cares? I only use SMB anyway. Maybe what you experienced was network micro-stutter (not at regular interval?). But then I'm not sure why it would be only with 23p content?

Funny we have the same AVR (Denon X8500H) and the same projector (JVC X7000/RS500), so I think you're my ideal tester

Looking forward to hearing your impressions after a couple of movies with the new f/w with SMB.

Being extremely drunk is probably the best way to watch T2 Trainspotting, so good for you!

I wouldn't use the Dune tonemapping because I can do much better with custom curves on the JVC (and so could you!), especially if the metadata is sent properly, as my Vertex selects the best curve according to the static metadata for each title. I'm waiting for @jowicrt to confirm if there are still issues with HDR metadata from the Dune or not in the new f/w, as he's the one who reported the issue.

I'm also hoping that the auto tonemapping of my next projector (a JVC N7) will do a decent job for TV series. I'll still watch all my 2D Movies with MadVR, due to the better calibration and tonemapping (by far).

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post #3325 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I'm waiting for @jowicrt to confirm if there are still issues with HDR metadata from the Dune or not in the new f/w,
Nothing has changed in the new firmware. LUM values look ok, MaxCLL/MaxFALL values are incorrect as far as i can tell, e.g. MaxCLL/MaxFALL: 1478/7367684 etc.
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post #3326 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 06:12 AM
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Nothing has changed in the new firmware. LUM values look ok, MaxCLL/MaxFALL values are incorrect as far as i can tell, e.g. MaxCLL/MaxFALL: 1478/7367684 etc.
Thanks for confirming. Damn, that's really a dealbreaker for me, there's no way I'll let the Dune do my tonemapping, especially with a 1.6 gamma. If they get gamma that wrong, it cannot bode well for the rest of the process.

Okay, I guess I'll come back in a few months. Hopefully there will be a non-beta f/w by then resolving most of the current issues.

If anything changes, please mention me or quote me as I'm going to unsubscribe from the thread.

Thanks again everyone for providing feedback.

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post #3327 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks for the list above, that still doesn't answer all the issues listed in my earlier post.

Also I have no idea what you are talking about regarding mkvs. The bitrate will change with each title, depending on the amount of compression on the disc. But mkvs are NOT compressed anymore than the disc, unless you remux them. You seem to be confused between 1:1 mkvs made with makemkv (there is zero compression compared to the original disc, the video and audio tracks selected are bit identical, except for the dolby vision layer that mkvs don't support, but the HDR10 layer and the HD audio tracks are untouched. So the amount of compression/bandwidth changes according to the way the title was mastered, and only that) and remuxes mkvs.

Some people remux discs to save room and create smaller files using handbrake or similar. These are still mkvs, but they are heavily compressed and do not show the original content, only a compressed version.

The container (mkv) has NOTHING to do with the amount of compression in the video/audio track. You can have mkvs with the exact same video/audio quality as the original disc or the BDMV/ISO, and mkv with the worst quality, as well as anything in between. BDMVs or ISOs can also be heavily compressed by the way if they have been made with say DVDfab using any amount of compression to make them fit on a smaller media.

So doing a test speed on a single title isn't going to tell you anything if the mkv is a 1:1 rip from the disc, as mine (and I expect Mark's) are.
If there are specific issues I missed in replying to your post and I am able to shed any light, let me know which specific issues and if I can I’ll provide more info.

As for mkv, I’m very familiar with the technical details and have created/used them in the past, but there was no technical info about the specific MKVs in your post, hence my comments.

I come from a software development background and always start from a diagnostic approach to problem solving, hence my mention of speed/bitrate tests.

If you have already determined that there is no correlation between the characteristics of the files and the perceived stuttering effect then that’s useful information.

I have not seen microstutter on the Pro 4K on original HD UHD BDMV folders.
I suspect the stutter on DVD in the original release firmware was an auto frame rate issue. This has been fixed in the latest beta firmware.
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post #3328 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks for the list above, that still doesn't answer all the issues listed in my earlier post.



Also I have no idea what you are talking about regarding mkvs. The bitrate will change with each title, depending on the amount of compression on the disc. But mkvs are NOT compressed anymore than the disc, unless you remux them. You seem to be confused between 1:1 mkvs made with makemkv (there is zero compression compared to the original disc, the video and audio tracks selected are bit identical, except for the dolby vision layer that mkvs don't support, but the HDR10 layer and the HD audio tracks are untouched. So the amount of compression/bandwidth changes according to the way the title was mastered, and only that) and remuxes mkvs.



Some people remux discs to save room and create smaller files using handbrake or similar. These are still mkvs, but they are heavily compressed and do not show the original content, only a compressed version.



The container (mkv) has NOTHING to do with the amount of compression in the video/audio track. You can have mkvs with the exact same video/audio quality as the original disc or the BDMV/ISO, and mkv with the worst quality, as well as anything in between. BDMVs or ISOs can also be heavily compressed by the way if they have been made with say DVDfab using any amount of compression to make them fit on a smaller media.



So doing a test speed on a single title isn't going to tell you anything if the mkv is a 1:1 rip from the disc, as mine (and I expect Mark's) are.

It never occurred to me that mkv files would not support Dolby vision. It’s not a big deal now for me but it will be someday when projectors support Dolby vision (or can tone map based on DV signal).

Are mkv files still the best way to backup 4K discs or should we be using a full disc copy to preserve all HDR formats?


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post #3329 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
It never occurred to me that mkv files would not support Dolby vision. It’s not a big deal now for me but it will be someday when projectors support Dolby vision (or can tone map based on DV signal).

Are mkv files still the best way to backup 4K discs or should we be using a full disc copy to preserve all HDR formats?


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Just use m2ts container instead of mkv...
You can have dolby vision in m2ts.. I have several...
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post #3330 of 5905 Old 09-15-2018, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jowicrt View Post
Nothing has changed in the new firmware. LUM values look ok, MaxCLL/MaxFALL values are incorrect as far as i can tell, e.g. MaxCLL/MaxFALL: 1478/7367684 etc.
OK, this may be an issue with projectors, but doesn’t appear to have an impact on rendering on my display.

I would have expected this to result in the display rendering the image either too light or too dark, but that’s not the experience I ‘ve had with UHD movies I’ve watched so far
Interestingly Red Sparrow UHD, with the exceptionof a few scenes, looked more like HD than UHD, but after reading the reviews, that impression was in fact very accurate.

The display spec supports better than 1400nits.
Maybe the issue is more critical with projectors.
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