Apple TV 4K lacks support for 24.000 video - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 459 Old 03-24-2020, 02:17 PM
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So final version of tvOS 13.4 is out. As it has the same build number as public beta 6, nothing has changed. Issue not fixed.

There will be no 13.5 right?
So next major update will be tvOS 14?

There are rumors there will be a new kids mode.
I’m so excited.
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post #362 of 459 Old 03-24-2020, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Understood. I looked at the Nvidia Shield and for what we do, it doesn't offer anything more than the ATV4k, aside from the 24p issue, which we don't see. We're not gamers and don't bother with voice control or integration with other devices (don't trust Google or any mfr for that matter). Nvidia is definitely a good streamer, and I will look into it when the time comes, but we're very happy so far with our Apple products and how well they work together (Airplay, etc).
Not only 24p, but proper handling HDR metadata....
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post #363 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 09:31 AM
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Not only 24p, but proper handling HDR metadata....
To be honest, I wouldn't know what "proper handling HDR metadata" means. Everything HDR we've streamed via the ATV4k (DV or HDR10) has look absolutely gorgeous. For me, if I don't see a difference or perceive any issues, then it's fine. No streamer of tv is perfect so I don't go looking for issues. I just enjoy it.

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post #364 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 09:34 AM
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Fixing the 24p issue
Proper HDR metadata handling
Basic audio bitstreaming

These are all things I have given up on them ever addressing.


My 2019 TCL 6-Series QLED R625 Calibrated Settings
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post #365 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by HD-Master View Post
Fixing the 24p issue
Proper HDR metadata handling
Basic audio bitstreaming

These are all things I have given up on them ever addressing.


My 2019 TCL 6-Series QLED R625 Calibrated Settings
It's not only the 24p, it's also the 30p [typo corrected] and 60p.

I tried to watch The Irishman on Netflix (24.00 forced to 23.976 by the ATV), and almost every single frame drop was visible. It was unwatchable and very distracting, especially on a big screen.

This is the main reason why I've sent the ATV 4K back at the end of its return window, when I saw that the 24p issue was still not solved in 13.4 beta 6.

I don't like the remote, but I use iRule and the universal remote from my X8500H, so not a dealbreaker for me.

It would be nice to get bitstreaming, but that doesn't really matter for streaming, which is my only use for this box (I use an Oppo 203 and my HTPC for all my disc content).

I'm not sure what the HDR metadata issue is. Please could you elaborate?

Apparently Apple said that the 24p issue was on their to do list and might be solved in TVOS 14, so I'll give the ATV another try in September/October, when the new model will likely launch (according to the latest leaks).

It's a real shame because it's the best streamer out there purely for streaming content if you want Atmos/Dolby Vision and don't need HDR10+.

I tried the Amazon Cube and it only has match frame rate for Amazon Prime, all other content (including Netflix) is forced to 60p. So it went back too...

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post #366 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 03:59 PM
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....Apparently Apple said that the 24p issue was on their to do list and might be solved in TVOS 14, so I'll give the ATV another try in September/October, when the new model will likely launch (according to the latest leaks)....
I'm new to this topic. Is it believed that this issue could be fixed with a software update? Or does it need a hardware revision?
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post #367 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 04:05 PM
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I'm new to this topic. Is it believed that this issue could be fixed with a software update? Or does it need a hardware revision?
We don't know, it could be a hardware limitation, hence why they said TVOS 14 and not earlier. It is weird that they can't do 24.00 or 30.00 [typo corrected] or 60.00. Whether it's incompetence, carelessness or a hardware issue, I don't know.

We should find out in September/October...
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post #368 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 04:07 PM
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I tried to watch The Irishman on Netflix (24.00 forced to 23.976 by the ATV), and almost every single frame drop was visible. It was unwatchable and very distracting, especially on a big screen.

And that is what is confusing to me. I watched The Irishman (in 2 sittings) on my 65C8 and didn't notice any stuttering or frame dropping at all. I guess I'm just not sensitive to it.

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post #369 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 04:19 PM
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And that is what is confusing to me. I watched The Irishman (in 2 sittings) on my 65C8 and didn't notice any stuttering or frame dropping at all. I guess I'm just not sensitive to it.
Have you set auto frame rate to on on the ATV? Are you sure you are displaying 24p and your display isn't converting to 60p?

For example, does your 65C8 have motion flow or similar enabled? If you interpolate the dropped/repeated frame, it might attenuate the effect, but then you have SOE (which you might like).

Is it from Netflix?

On my 88" 16/9 (JVC RS2000) almost every single drop/repeat was visible, due to the number of slow pans / steadicam shots.

I am very sensitive to it, but I can't imagine that anyone would miss such an artifact every 40 secs or so.

I have an HD Fury Maestro, so I know exactly what comes out of the source and gets to the display. The ATV definitely sends 24.00p content at 23.976p. That can't go well.

Here is a screenshot I took from the developer mode in the Amazon Cube that shows the content is mastered in 24.00p (it's not The Irishman but Bird Box, one of the many titles listed here as being 24.00p). I had exactly the same problem with Bird Box on the ATV, 24.00 forced to 23.976=dropped/repeated frames. The Cube wasn't better as ALL content is forced to 60p on the cube (apart from Amazon prime content).
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post #370 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Have you set auto frame rate to on on the ATV? Are you sure you are displaying 24p and your display isn't converting to 60p?

For example, does your 65C8 have motion flow or similar enabled? If you interpolate the dropped/repeated frame, it might attenuate the effect, but then you have SOE (which you might like).

Is it from Netflix?

On my 88" 16/9 (JVC RS2000) almost every single drop/repeat was visible, due to the number of slow pans / steadicam shots.

I am very sensitive to it, but I can't imagine that anyone would miss such an artifact every 40 secs or so.

I have an HD Fury Maestro, so I know exactly what comes out of the source and gets to the display. The ATV definitely sends 24.00p content at 23.976p. That can't go well.

Here is a screenshot I took from the developer mode in the Amazon Cube that shows the content is mastered in 24.00p (it's not The Irishman but Bird Box, one of the many titles listed here as being 24.00p). I had exactly the same problem with Bird Box on the ATV, 24.00 forced to 23.976=dropped/repeated frames. The Cube wasn't better as ALL content is forced to 60p on the cube (apart from Amazon prime content).
On the ATV4k, both Match Dynamic and Frame Rate are enabled. TruMotion (motion interpolation) on the C8 is disabled and Real Cinema is enabled. Streaming service is Netflix Premium.

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post #371 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 04:39 PM
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On the ATV4k, both Match Dynamic and Frame Rate are enabled. TruMotion (motion interpolation) on the C8 is disabled and Real Cinema is enabled. Streaming service is Netflix Premium.
I have no idea then. Maybe you are lucky and are unable to spot these? If that's the case, I envy you

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post #372 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 05:46 PM
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I watched The Irishman (in 2 sittings).

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post #373 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 06:08 PM
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Yeah, somebody had posted some reasonable stopping points that didn't affect the flow of the story so I opted for the "2 viewing" break instead of the "3 viewing" break I'm too old to sit that long in one spot

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post #374 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 06:10 PM
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I have no idea then. Maybe you are lucky and are unable to spot these? If that's the case, I envy you

Maybe it's a combination of my LG OLED and my lack of visual sensitivity to the frame skipping. Whatever the reason, I'm happy. I'm sure it does exist but not for us, my wife hasn't noticed it either .

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post #375 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 11:27 PM
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I'm not sure what the HDR metadata issue is. Please could you elaborate?
It's a real shame because it's the best streamer out there purely for streaming content if you want Atmos/Dolby Vision and don't need HDR10+.
The correct metadata (MaxCLL/MaxFALL) is important for tone mapping, especially on LG OLEDs and Projectors. The ATV always send 4000/1000 for these values (except iTunes).
The best streamer is the NVidia Shield TV Pro 2019.
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post #376 of 459 Old 03-25-2020, 11:52 PM
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We don't know, it could be a hardware limitation, hence why they said TVOS 14 and not earlier. It is weird that they can't do 24.00 or 50.00 or 60.00. Whether it's incompetence, carelessness or a hardware issue, I don't know.

We should find out in September/October...
Isn't 50p OK? There is no other "50" or "25" like there is 23.976/24.000 or 59.94/60.000. It's always 25.000 and 50.000.
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The correct metadata (MaxCLL/MaxFALL) is important for tone mapping, especially on LG OLEDs and Projectors. The ATV always send 4000/1000 for these values (except iTunes).
The best streamer is the NVidia Shield TV Pro 2019.
Sold my Shield a while back because NVidia never implemented auto frame rate matching and auto dynamic range matching. Is it now supported? Do apps like Netflix, Prime, Disney+, HBO NOW support it without any user interaction?

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post #378 of 459 Old 03-26-2020, 12:36 AM
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Maybe it's a combination of my LG OLED and my lack of visual sensitivity to the frame skipping. Whatever the reason, I'm happy. I'm sure it does exist but not for us, my wife hasn't noticed it either .
If it's not a problem for you, you should go on enjoying it!

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The correct metadata (MaxCLL/MaxFALL) is important for tone mapping, especially on LG OLEDs and Projectors. The ATV always send 4000/1000 for these values (except iTunes).
The best streamer is the NVidia Shield TV Pro 2019.
Thanks, I'm familiar with the importance of metadata for tonemapping when you rely on the metadata (which is often incorrect, even when the source sends it properly). I just didn't notice this metadata issue on the ATV because I have an Envy Extreme that does dynamic frame by frame tonemapping with HDR10 content and doesn't need metadata to do so, so I didn't even look at the metadata reported by the Envy or the Maestro while I was evaluating the ATV. At least you know that there is a solution for that issue if Apple doesn't fix it.

I wish I had spotted this HDR metadata issue even if it doesn't apply to me, I would have reported it too. The Dune HD 4K Pro has a similar issue, and that's one of the reasons why I have one in the family room but I use other sources in the cinema room for my disc content (Oppo 203 clone and HTPC with madVR).

I tried to look at the nVidia Shield TV Pro but my understanding is there is no automatic frame rate match, that nVidia has stopped developping it that beta feature and that you have to use an unsupported menu that could go at any time to manually specify the frame rate you think applies (your guess)? If that's the case, it's not acceptable to me.

Also I only need another box for streaming services with Atmos and Dolby Vision (the latter only to run some tests, I don't need DV with an Envy). There are many UK streaming services beyond Netflix and Amazon Prime that I need and I don't think they are all present in the Shield TV Pro (Apple TV+, NowTV, Britbox, Mubi, Disney+, BT Sport). Finally there is no integration that I can see in iRule (IP) or the universal remote of my Denon X8500H (IR. The ATV is supported in both. Lastly, there is no stock for it in the UK, so I can't get a unit to evaluate it. If you don't game and don't need Plex or Kodi, I'm not sure that the Shield Pro is a better option than the ATV, but I'm happy to revise this if any of the above is incorrect.

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Isn't 50p OK? There is no other "50" or "25" like there is 23.976/24.000 or 59.94/60.000. It's always 25.000 and 50.000.
You are right, I meant 24p, 30p and 60p. I think 25p and 50p are OK. I only tested 24.00p anyway.

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Sold my Shield a while back because NVidia never implemented auto frame rate matching and auto dynamic range matching. Is it now supported? Do apps like Netflix, Prime, Disney+, HBO NOW support it without any user interaction?
Yes, auto dynamic range is on the system level and auto frame rate is fine with the third party Refresh Rate App.
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Yes, auto dynamic range is on the system level and auto frame rate is fine with the third party Refresh Rate App.
Is it working reliably? Sounds more like a hack reading the description: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce...esh-rate-tool/

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Yes, auto dynamic range is on the system level and auto frame rate is fine with the third party Refresh Rate App.
As per my post above, does the 3rd party refresh app apply the correct frame rate automatically according to content with all the streaming app, or does the user have to select what they think is the correct rate it in a menu?

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post #382 of 459 Old 03-26-2020, 01:25 AM
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As per my post above, does the 3rd party refresh app apply the correct frame rate automatically according to content with all the streaming app, or does the user have to select what they think is the correct rate it in a menu?
Automatically, I use it every day.
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Is it working reliably? Sounds more like a hack reading the description: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce...esh-rate-tool/
"Hack", but works fine.
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Automatically, I use it every day.
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"Hack", but works fine.
Thanks, but based on the number of issues in the comments, and the fact that if the dev stops supporting the app the feature can disappear with any OS upgrade, it's not very reassuring.

Shame that nVidia dropped the ball on that one.

I might give it a try if I see it in stock in the UK at any point, when I get a confrmation of which streaming services it supports in the UK, as I can't find that list.

Anyway, back to the ATV topic

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post #385 of 459 Old 03-26-2020, 02:18 PM
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We don't know, it could be a hardware limitation, hence why they said TVOS 14 and not earlier. It is weird that they can't do 24.00 or 50.00 or 60.00. Whether it's incompetence, carelessness or a hardware issue, I don't know.

We should find out in September/October...
Maybe just a typo but of course ATV can do 50.00Hz ... it can’t do 24./30./60.00Hz.

Yeah ... we all just don’t know. And this makes me crazy.

I know someone called Apple and was told that it’s on their radar and it might get fixed with tvOS14. But I’m sure that’s what the tell many people about a lot of issues: we are aware of it, just wait for the next update. Just the usual support talk.

As I’m in Europe and 24.000fps is way more common here even before Netflix decided to release all of their future original content this way (as it seems), this is a major issue for me for quite some time now. And I know that Apple knew about this even before tvOS13 was out. I told them and others told them. So I had high hopes this would be fixed with tvOS13. But didn’t happen. So I’m pretty sure it won’t happen with tvOS14. At least not on the current model. Because if it’s possible and they do care they would have done it already.

It’s such a shame. For me no other device is so close at being the perfect streamer.
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Yes, as I've already indicated, it was a typo. I have corrected it to prevent an endless stream of comments
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post #387 of 459 Old 03-26-2020, 03:14 PM
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Yes, as I've already indicated, it was a typo. I have corrected it to prevent an endless stream of comments
Yes, sorry. I forgot to refresh the page before posting so I missed that.
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post #388 of 459 Old 03-26-2020, 04:39 PM
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Is it working reliably? Sounds more like a hack reading the description: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce...esh-rate-tool/
No, and Prime Video, Vudu, Disney+ etc just crash back to the main screen and won’t actually make the switch.
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post #389 of 459 Old 03-27-2020, 03:36 AM
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No, and Prime Video, Vudu, Disney+ etc just crash back to the main screen and won’t actually make the switch.
Thanks for this confirmation, this is what the many comments in the hack thread seem to suggest as well. A lot of issues and instability, along with no guarantee that the hack will keep working after any OS update.

So no point in testing the Shield Pro, which is great I'm sure if you're a gamer or want to Plex your rips with audio passthrough, but I'm looking for a pure streaming solution with all the channels I need as I use better sources for my disc content and have no interest in the Shield gaming abilities as my HTPC is a better gaming platform.

In the list of channels for the Shield Pro, I can't see NowTV, Britbox, Apple TV+, Mubi and BT Sport which are channels that I want to see supported (especially NowTV and ATV+). And in case anyone wonders, no, I don't want to use another stick just for these.

So back to waiting for a fix for this frame rate match issue in TVOS14 and/or the next ATV model, as it's the only box that fits all my requirements.

In the meantime, back to slumming it in 4K60 with my good old UB900 (no Atmos sadly)...

Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
JVC Macro feature on Vertex/Vertex2/Integral2/Maestro
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post #390 of 459 Old 03-27-2020, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks for this confirmation, this is what the many comments in the hack thread seem to suggest as well. A lot of issues and instability, along with no guarantee that the hack will keep working after any OS update.

So no point in testing the Shield Pro, which is great I'm sure if you're a gamer or want to Plex your rips with audio passthrough, but I'm looking for a pure streaming solution with all the channels I need as I use better sources for my disc content and have no interest in the Shield gaming abilities as my HTPC is a better gaming platform.

In the list of channels for the Shield Pro, I can't see NowTV, Britbox, Apple TV+, Mubi and BT Sport which are channels that I want to see supported (especially NowTV and ATV+). And in case anyone wonders, no, I don't want to use another stick just for these.

So back to waiting for a fix for this frame rate match issue in TVOS14 and/or the next ATV model, as it's the only box that fits all my requirements.

In the meantime, back to slumming it in 4K60 with my good old UB900 (no Atmos sadly)...
You can set the third party refresh tool on the Shield to change resolution/refresh modes on a single remote key press. I do it on my 2017 Shield, works fine. I don’t even use my ATV4k anymore, I’m going to sell it.
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