Apple TV 4K lacks support for 24.000 video - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 413 Old 01-06-2020, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
It's just so backwards though it makes me not even want to bother with the device if that is their proposed solution to framerate switching; that the end user is expected to know what the correct framerate is of some piece of content and adjust to suit.

Unless I'm mistaken there isn't actually any easy way to work out what the correct frame rate is on the Shield for a given piece of playing video - or does it tell you what the currently playing video frame rate is when you pull up the menu (which I guess it could to to ease the pain).
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Can you please describe exactly how it works as I've already gone through the pain of returning a 2017 shield last year after being told that did auto rate switching out of the box with Netflix.

Is it a matter of playing content and then pressing a single button on the remote handset? Which button? Or do you play content, bring up a menu, navigate to a function and then select it? Is there no selection whatsoever necessary of the frame rate - it is fully automatic and gets 24 vs 23.976, 60 vs 59.94 and 30 vs 29.97 right?

Out of interest, what does it do for 30 and 25 - does it use those rates or double them like Appletv does?

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This is why I'd suggest using the Refresh Rate app instead of Nvidia's beta feature, which I found unreliable. Refresh Rate requires more setup and configuration, but once you figure out each app's idiosyncrasies, you have a solution that works in every scenario, if a bit inconsistently.

Here are how I have my apps set up:

Netflix works automatically. I start playing a video and after a few seconds, Refresh Rate detects the frame rate and switches the refresh rate automatically if it's different from the current refresh rate. The complication is that Netflix plays those stupid video previews as you browse and they trigger Refresh Rate also, which can be annoying (the audio drops and my receiver pops a bit).

The automatic rate switching doesn't seem to work so well with Criterion; I normally need to start the video, back out, and restart it a couple times for it to work. Instead, I set it to always start up as 1080p23.976 since all their film-based content is in that format. That way, there's no rate switching while I use the app and my display gets to do the upscaling.

Amazon Prime is the buggiest one. As soon as Refresh Rate triggers a rate change, the app quits playing the video because of an HDCP error. This is another one where it makes sense to set a default resolution/rate and then change it manually for exceptions. Refresh Rate provides an overlay menu that lets you select a specific refresh rate in cases like this. What's nice is you can set Refresh Rate to display the detected refresh rate for any content when the video starts playing, so if you do need to switch it manually, you don't have to guess what rate to use.

This is a distinctly Android-like experience with more options and fiddling than Apple, but the bottom line is that you can't get proper native rates on the ATV for a variety of content and Apple has made no movement on that for years, so if you're a videophile who insists on having smooth frame rates, it's the best option there is right now.

I'm still holding on to my ATV though in case Apple comes through with a better solution.

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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
Nvidia via a posting in their forum has stated there will be no auto-refresh rate support coming, the beta feature is as good as it's going to get.
I'm starting to get the feeling that enabling this feature in the OS as a global setting is a complex undertaking and direct app support is necessary. Refresh Rate is sniffing the network stream (which involves enabling Developer Tools and some other advanced settings) and changing the video signal mid-stream, and as Prime shows, messing with a stream in progress can have weird consequences. Kodi and Plex both do automatic rate switching on the Shield, so that proves that the app makers themselves can support it if they want.
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post #182 of 413 Old 01-07-2020, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie.modernist View Post
This is one of those issues I really wish I hadn't noticed, but I think it's hard to not see it on an OLED display, for anyone with a keen sense of frame rate (which I figure is anyone on here).
Not so much. I've spent much time peering at my display and although I've seen any number of glitches but it's not syntonic. A few people (some more aggressive than others) have mentioned being bothered by it in the ATV thread, others, like me, don't notice it. I have an OLED, other people have other tech.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #183 of 413 Old 01-07-2020, 05:16 PM
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^^^^^^ I don't notice it either on my 65C8/ATV4k, and I've been using both for over a year now.

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post #184 of 413 Old 01-08-2020, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Not so much. I've spent much time peering at my display and although I've seen any number of glitches but it's not syntonic. A few people (some more aggressive than others) have mentioned being bothered by it in the ATV thread, others, like me, don't notice it. I have an OLED, other people have other tech.
I've had the OLED / ATV setup in my signature for around 2 years now and to be honest I only noticed it in the last few weeks, as I recently signed up for Criterion Channel, and watched The Witcher. The Witcher was where I noticed it first, a handful of times during the show the signal was noticeably dropping frames. I actually assumed the ATV was glitching and needed to be reset. Then I watched Wong Kar-wai's In the Mood for Love on CC which plays around a lot with framerate / slowmo and the jankiness was more apparent there, which was when I realized something was up at a deeper level. Perhaps its a bit like RBE with DLP projectors, another thing I've always been bothered by, that others can't see.

Either way it's not a major issue, and I certainly don't think the ATV is unwatchable, and don't plan on moving to the Shield which seems equally janky. I just wish Apple would fix the issue since it seems to be possible.

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post #185 of 413 Old 01-08-2020, 12:36 PM
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I'd love to know what their logic is for that position. Have you got a link?
I found the discussion and PM'ed with the NVIDIA rep about it. Basically, it's Netflix's fault.

Below is the link to the NVIDIA Shield 2019 thread where I posted the responses and the links back to the NVIDIA forum.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...l#post59067794
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post #186 of 413 Old 01-08-2020, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
I found the discussion and PM'ed with the NVIDIA rep about it. Basically, it's Netflix's fault.

Below is the link to the NVIDIA Shield 2019 thread where I posted the responses and the links back to the NVIDIA forum.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...l#post59067794
I've followed up in that thread, but I don't think Android helps itself. I believe Android expects app developers to do way too much to support autoframerate switching - you basically have to do all the business logic yourself (getting list of supported rates from system, deciding which rate to set as preferred, etc). The AppleTV solution is more elegant it seems (if slightly flawed in a lack of support for several fairly common rates).
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post #187 of 413 Old 01-08-2020, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
^^^^^^ I don't notice it either on my 65C8/ATV4k, and I've been using both for over a year now.
I have a 65B8 and the biggest problem with ATV is the fake fixed 4000/1000 MaxCLL/MaxFALL metadatas.
LG OLED's are using these values for correct tone mapping, even the DTM is ON.
Try with 10000 nits Spears & Munsil demo and you will see the difference between ATV and the internal player.
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post #188 of 413 Old 01-09-2020, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by djnice77 View Post
I have a 65B8 and the biggest problem with ATV is the fake fixed 4000/1000 MaxCLL/MaxFALL metadatas.
LG OLED's are using these values for correct tone mapping, even the DTM is ON.
Try with 10000 nits Spears & Munsil demo and you will see the difference between ATV and the internal player.

If I don't notice any issues with any content then why go looking for issues? No panel is perfect, and I'm sure I'd find some issues with mine if I looked hard enough, but if it's not noticeable to me or those who view our C8, then it doesn't exist
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post #189 of 413 Old 01-16-2020, 11:17 PM
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You can add "The Gift" to the list of Netflix originals that's delivered with a true 24.0 fps frame rate. I had to switch over to the Shield to get proper playback.
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post #190 of 413 Old 01-16-2020, 11:24 PM
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The Irishman not working effectively should be enough to prompt some action. It’s arguably the most important film of last year.


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post #191 of 413 Old 01-17-2020, 05:37 AM
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Its already quite a long list. Just to name a few.

Netflix:
Bird Box
Earthquake Bird
El Camino
Marriage Story
Outlaw King
Shadow of the Moon
The Irishman
The two Popes
The Witcher
Triple Frontier

iTunes (German Store, dont know if there are differences across the stores):
12y a Slave
Cloud Atlas
Hacksaw Ridge
I am Mother
Iron Man
Southpaw
Valerian
Wind River
What happened to Monday

For Netflix im using the new shield but no solution for iTunes content so far. Not very pleased with the situation.
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post #192 of 413 Old 01-17-2020, 06:11 AM
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Its already quite a long list. Just to name a few.



Netflix:

Bird Box

Earthquake Bird

El Camino

Marriage Story

Outlaw King

Shadow of the Moon

The Irishman

The two Popes

The Witcher

Triple Frontier



iTunes (German Store, dont know if there are differences across the stores):

12y a Slave

Cloud Atlas

Hacksaw Ridge

I am Mother

Iron Man

Southpaw

Valerian

Wind River

What happened to Monday



For Netflix im using the new shield but no solution for iTunes content so far. Not very pleased with the situation.


I’ve never purchased any iTunes movies or TV shows, so it made my switch to multiple Shield TV’s much easier. Didn’t lose anything, but gained some features.
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post #193 of 413 Old 01-17-2020, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by smett View Post
iTunes (German Store, dont know if there are differences across the stores):
12y a Slave
Cloud Atlas
Hacksaw Ridge
I am Mother
Iron Man
Southpaw
Valerian
Wind River
What happened to Monday

For Netflix im using the new shield but no solution for iTunes content so far. Not very pleased with the situation.
Useful list. Do you know if those Itunes titles were distributed on BD as 24.0p also, or whether this is something that just happened for Itunes? Up til now the only Itunes title I was sure was affected was Highlander 30th Anniversary. (I still believe the issue with Prisoners and playback behaviour changing depending on QuickStart setting is something else, and not related to 24.0p vs 23.976p).
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post #194 of 413 Old 01-17-2020, 09:03 AM
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Useful list. Do you know if those Itunes titles were distributed on BD as 24.0p also, or whether this is something that just happened for Itunes?
All I can say is that according to some BD-Info Websites some were and some not.
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post #195 of 413 Old 01-17-2020, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
The Irishman not working effectively should be enough to prompt some action. It’s arguably the most important film of last year.


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Oh, I agree but given the pace at which Apple moves on software fixes at times...

One thing we all can do is to pound the Apple feedback site with the problem and I'm sure there are other avenues like a developer bug reporting page that appears to only work for those running Mac software. Also, while I'm not running the beta tvOS there must be a way there to report bugs there as that's what beta software is all about.

I've used the below link about 6-7 times to report the problem, sometimes repeating the same title just to get the bug report count up.
https://www.apple.com/feedback/appletv.html

There's also the below site which seems to require Mac OS to use.
https://developer.apple.com/bug-reporting/
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post #196 of 413 Old 01-17-2020, 11:15 AM
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I thought I'd add some quasi-non sequitur comments to this discussion. I have the Apple TV and the Sony X900F. When I view 24.000 content with frame match enabled, I definitely see the frame drops. So, I've been watching all Netflix content without frame rate match, which applies the 3:2. Some people say that this makes the frame rates worse, more unpredictable, etc. While that may be the case on some systems, it's definitely not the case on mine. Everything looks smooth and I've never seen a frame drop.
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post #197 of 413 Old 01-17-2020, 11:40 AM
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I thought I'd add some quasi-non sequitur comments to this discussion. I have the Apple TV and the Sony X900F. When I view 24.000 content with frame match enabled, I definitely see the frame drops. So, I've been watching all Netflix content without frame rate match, which applies the 3:2. Some people say that this makes the frame rates worse, more unpredictable, etc. While that may be the case on some systems, it's definitely not the case on mine. Everything looks smooth and I've never seen a frame drop.
I think it is a case of "your mileage may vary" depending on your requirements. That you comment "everything looks smooth" is a bit of an alarm bell as that isn't what "correct" 24p looks like, nor is it what 3:2 pulldown of 24p usually looks like. It implies you have some motion processing enabled which is smoothing inbound frames into manufactured frames. That can paper over all manner of sins.

Where you're likely to get the more unpredictable results is where you have 3:2 enabled in the AppleTV (ie rate match off) and then attempt to get the display to do the reverse pulldown to get back to the original 24p. In that situation the math works most of the time and then it will see the odd 2:2:2 sequence (instead of 2:3:2) and that can cause the 3:2 reverse engine to break out, stutter, etc. That is what can be worse than the original issue.

Anyway, if you have found settings that make the content watchable for you then that is all good.
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post #198 of 413 Old 01-17-2020, 11:49 AM
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I think it is a case of "your mileage may vary" depending on your requirements. That you comment "everything looks smooth" is a bit of an alarm bell as that isn't what "correct" 24p looks like, nor is it what 3:2 pulldown of 24p usually looks like. It implies you have some motion processing enabled which is smoothing inbound frames into manufactured frames. That can paper over all manner of sins.

Where you're likely to get the more unpredictable results is where you have 3:2 enabled in the AppleTV (ie rate match off) and then attempt to get the display to do the reverse pulldown to get back to the original 24p. In that situation the math works most of the time and then it will see the odd 2:2:2 sequence (instead of 2:3:2) and that can cause the 3:2 reverse engine to break out, stutter, etc. That is what can be worse than the original issue.

Anyway, if you have found settings that make the content watchable for you then that is all good.
I agree with everything you said. I do have a low level of frame interpolation enabled to deal with the frame duplication on a 120 hz panel, and I don't enable reverse 3:2 pulldown (Sony calls this Cinemotion) as I've found it to be terrible. That setting has never worked as desired over the 10 years my family has had Sony tvs. However, frame interpolation covers up all kinds of issues with judder and stutter. Panning shots look smooth and consistent. It's a good combo of settings for my particular situation, and that's all I was really implying originally.
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post #199 of 413 Old 01-17-2020, 12:11 PM
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I agree with everything you said. I do have a low level of frame interpolation enabled to deal with the frame duplication on a 120 hz panel, and I don't enable reverse 3:2 pulldown (Sony calls this Cinemotion) as I've found it to be terrible. That setting has never worked as desired over the 10 years my family has had Sony tvs. However, frame interpolation covers up all kinds of issues with judder and stutter. Panning shots look smooth and consistent. It's a good combo of settings for my particular situation, and that's all I was really implying originally.
As I say I'm pleased you have settings that work for you. They're not settings I could use myself in my own system, but it doesn't matter. I'm really happy for anyone who gets a workable solution for them for this issue.

Many of the most vocal objectors in here (myself included) to this issue have projectors which present a double whammy:
1) motion processing algorithmss available are often basic or poor with strong SOE, and given we're often trying to achieve a cinema look to our presentation they're nearly always disabled for many of us
1) because of the sheer size of the projected image the missing frames stand out like a sore thumb - a missing frame can mean something jumps across many inches on the screen "magically" from one frame to the next once a frame has been missed.

We can only hope for a correct fix to come to the platform in some way. I'm getting fed up of having to use a decrepid bluray player and losing Atmos (I'm not up for buying a Shield yet as the list of things being fixed in hotfixes still seems on the shocking side for a product someone wants me to give them money for).
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post #200 of 413 Old 01-18-2020, 09:50 AM
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The Shield beta refresh rate switch doesn’t work with DV content still, right? It didn’t when I first bought my 2019 Shield....

EDIT: ah, see it was fixed in the latest hot fix. I wish they’d get that update out public sooner cause I don’t feel like joining the beta list...

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post #201 of 413 Old 01-18-2020, 09:56 AM
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The Shield beta refresh rate switch doesn’t work with DV content still, right? It didn’t when I first bought my 2019 Shield....
I haven't tried the beta refresh rate switch that comes loaded with the 2019 Shield in about a month but I can confirm that the 3rd party Refresh Rate app available in the Play Store works just fine with Dolby Vision titles.
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post #202 of 413 Old 01-29-2020, 10:17 AM
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I called apple and talked to a senior customer service rep about this. He said that apple is aware of it, "they have a radar for it". Couldn't promise a timeframe on a fix (or that it will get a fix at all), but alluded that tvos14 might include it. Glad they know about it. Wish a fix would come sooner.

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post #203 of 413 Old 01-29-2020, 11:10 AM
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I called apple and talked to a senior customer service rep about this. He said that apple is aware of it, "they have a radar for it". Couldn't promise a timeframe on a fix (or that it will get a fix at all), but alluded that tvos14 might include it. Glad they know about it. Wish a fix would come sooner.
That's more positive than any response I've ever got out of them, fingers crossed.
I can see two ways that they can fix it:
1) If the HW can support it, output true 24.000 and 60.000 where required. Best option of course.
2) If the HW can't support it, playback the video as 23.976 / 59.94 but real time sample rate convert the audio stream to keep the video in step. I think this should be possible as I believe Apple always decode the audio (and re-encode it in the case of Atmos or 5.1 output selected). This is how the reclock directshow filter on the PC used to work where a correct frame rate could not be output. They should really pitch correct too, but they could probably get away without doing that.

Anyway, I'd be over the moon with either approach and it would make the AppleTV without doubt the stand-out best streamer option...
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post #204 of 413 Old 01-30-2020, 07:07 AM
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Any idea what sort of timeframe is associated with tvos14?

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Any idea what sort of timeframe is associated with tvos14?
In recent years Apple has done the major updates to its operating systems once per year like clockwork, so tvOS 14 will almost certainly be out in September.
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post #206 of 413 Old 01-31-2020, 11:21 AM
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I'm starting to get the feeling that enabling this feature in the OS as a global setting is a complex undertaking and direct app support is necessary. Refresh Rate is sniffing the network stream (which involves enabling Developer Tools and some other advanced settings) and changing the video signal mid-stream, and as Prime shows, messing with a stream in progress can have weird consequences. Kodi and Plex both do automatic rate switching on the Shield, so that proves that the app makers themselves can support it if they want.



If it is that difficult, then Roku must have the best engineers in the market. The native refresh rate setting in a Roku Ultra works great. The time it takes for a screen to flash and adjust to the new refresh rate is very tolerable, not annoying at all, and always seems to work.
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post #207 of 413 Old 01-31-2020, 12:27 PM
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If it is that difficult, then Roku must have the best engineers in the market. The native refresh rate setting in a Roku Ultra works great. The time it takes for a screen to flash and adjust to the new refresh rate is very tolerable, not annoying at all, and always seems to work.
Oh yeah... it works so well that it is my understanding Netflix nobbled their Roku app to no longer support rate switching because the implementation on Roku causes their UI to have usability issues due to the previews in the UI also triggering refresh rate changes...
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post #208 of 413 Old 01-31-2020, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Oh yeah... it works so well that it is my understanding Netflix nobbled their Roku app to no longer support rate switching because the implementation on Roku causes their UI to have usability issues due to the previews in the UI also triggering refresh rate changes...

I can't comment on Netflix as I have never used it on the Roku. I have only used my TVs build-in netflix app.



The auto switching works great on Amazon Prime, DLNA files, ESPN, Fox Sports, Youtube, slingTV, Roku channel....I think a few others but I haven't used all that many apps on my devices.
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post #209 of 413 Old 01-31-2020, 12:55 PM
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post #210 of 413 Old 01-31-2020, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
If it is that difficult, then Roku must have the best engineers in the market. The native refresh rate setting in a Roku Ultra works great. The time it takes for a screen to flash and adjust to the new refresh rate is very tolerable, not annoying at all, and always seems to work.
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
I can't comment on Netflix as I have never used it on the Roku. I have only used my TVs build-in netflix app.
Let me know when it works on the most widely-used streaming app in the world. Also, unless Roku has improved their image quality considerably, I'm not interested in going back to them. Their 1080p > 4K upscaling was horrendous and loaded with artifacts on the Roku 4.

I switched to Shield TV Pro, and while it takes more experimentation to get the best results, at least it works, and the image quality is on par with the Apple TV.
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