Apple TV 4K lacks support for 24.000 video - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 280 Old 03-04-2018, 04:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Exclamation Apple TV 4K lacks support for 24.000 video

I recently got an ATV 4K and was watching the Netflix show DARK via Infuse when I noticed that there is some stutter.
After investigating it turns out that the new Apple TV 4K has no support for the integer framerates of 24.000 and 60.000, resulting in dropped frames every ~42 seconds (in the first case). This is due to:
  • video with 24.000 fps gets outputted as 23.976
  • video with 60.000 fps gets outputted as 59.94

Obviously, this is very annoying and every proper mediaplayer has support for it.

Sure, 24.000 is not the norm as the vast majority of movies is filmed at 23.976 frames and 60.000 content is even more scarce. Still, its a no brainer for apple to implement it.

I looked through my movie collection which consists of 269 movies and it turns out that 4% of them are 24.000 fps.
Movies include American Pie (1999), Rambo (2008) and Rules of Engagement (2000).

I was extremely surprised to find this as every publication which reported on Apples new and awesome "match framerate" did not mention this. I also couldn't find this in any review.

A thread I created at infuse forum:
https://firecore.com/forum/topic/20111
Another thread at MrMC:
https://mrmc.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1514&p=15562

So there is nothing Infuse, MrMC, Plex, etc can do about it as those framerates are just not available. Therefore, we need to make Apple aware of this problem here:

https://www.apple.com/feedback/appletv.html

I hope that they will add it in the future given enough people complain about it.


//edit1:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Coane View Post
I called apple and talked to a senior customer service rep about this. He said that apple is aware of it, "they have a radar for it". Couldn't promise a timeframe on a fix (or that it will get a fix at all), but alluded that tvos14 might include it. Glad they know about it. Wish a fix would come sooner.

Jesse

//edit2:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
I went through this thread and collected all the titles that were mentioned with the frame rate issue. I may have missed a few and I'm sure there are at least this much more, maybe 100's of titles with a 24.000 frame rate that the Apple TV(and many other devices) cannot play correctly.

Netflix
American Pie (1999)
Rambo (2008)
Rules of Engagement (2000)
Dark
Hans Zimmer
Close
Io
Bird Box
Burning
Train to Busan
Ultraman
The Witcher
The Gift
The Irishman
Earthquake Bird
El Camino
Marriage Story
Outlaw King
In the Shadow of the Moon
The Two Popes
Triple Frontier
Uncut Gems
Ragnarok
Luna Nera (added 02-01-2022)


iTunes
Solaris(?)
The Florida Project
The Idol
The House That Jack Built
Arrow movies on iTunes?
Back to the Future
I Am Mother
12 Years a Slave
Cloud Atlas
Hacksaw Ridge
Iron Man
Southpaw
Valerian
Wind River
What Happened to Monday
IP Man
Avatar
The Hateful Eight
Relatos Salvajes
Das Finstere Tal
Autoreiji

Criterion Channel
In the Mood for Love
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Last edited by Sledgehamma; 02-02-2020 at 04:14 AM.
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post #2 of 280 Old 03-04-2018, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledgehamma View Post
I recently got an ATV 4K and was watching the Netflix show DARK via Infuse when I noticed that there is some stutter.
After investigating it turns out that the new Apple TV 4K has no support for the integer framerates of 24.000 and 60.000, resulting in dropped frames every ~42 seconds (in the first case). This is due to:
  • video with 24.000 fps gets outputted as 23.976
  • video with 60.000 fps gets outputted as 59.94

Obviously, this is very annoying and every proper mediaplayer has support for it.

Sure, 24.000 is not the norm as the vast majority of movies is filmed at 23.976 frames and 60.000 content is even more scarce. Still, its a no brainer for apple to implement it.

I looked through my movie collection which consists of 269 movies and it turns out that 4% of them are 24.000 fps.
Movies include American Pie (1999), Rambo (2008) and Rules of Engagement (2000).

I was extremely surprised to find this as every publication which reported on Apples new and awesome "match framerate" did not mention this. I also couldn't find this in any review.

A thread I created at infuse forum:
https://firecore.com/forum/topic/20111
Another thread at MrMC:
https://mrmc.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1514&p=15562

So there is nothing Infuse, MrMC, Plex, etc can do about it as those framerates are just not available. Therefore, we need to make Apple aware of this problem here:

https://www.apple.com/feedback/appletv.html

I hope that they will add it in the future given enough people complain about it.
I don’t get stutter watching that show on Netflix. The frame rate showing on the HUD looks correct too. How are you able to watch Netflix via Infuse? Maybe that’s the problem. Suggest you post in the Apple TV Owners thread.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-net...rs-thread.html

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post #3 of 280 Old 03-04-2018, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_snow View Post
I don’t get stutter watching that show on Netflix. The frame rate showing on the HUD looks correct too. How are you able to watch Netflix via Infuse? Maybe that’s the problem. Suggest you post in the Apple TV Owners thread.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-net...rs-thread.html
Because the ripped files available for download are 24fps. I really don't think Apple will be receptive to aiding in ripped files playing properly on 3rd party apps.
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post #4 of 280 Old 03-04-2018, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeorwell View Post
Because the ripped files available for download are 24fps. I really don't think Apple will be receptive to aiding in ripped files playing properly on 3rd party apps.
Agree and there are so many other variables such as how and where those files were obtained (Kodi add-on?), compression on the rip, software used, etc....All I know is the source material looks good to me.

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post #5 of 280 Old 03-04-2018, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_snow View Post
I don’t get stutter watching that show on Netflix. The frame rate showing on the HUD looks correct too. How are you able to watch Netflix via Infuse? Maybe that’s the problem. Suggest you post in the Apple TV Owners thread.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-net...rs-thread.html
So what is the HUD telling you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_snow View Post
Agree and there are so many other variables such as how and where those files were obtained (Kodi add-on?), compression on the rip, software used, etc....All I know is the source material looks good to me.
It’s a web-dl, no reencoding, no capture etc. Problem is definitely on ATV, as I tested it with test patterns as well.

And DARK was just an example...see the other movies I posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeorwell View Post
Because the ripped files available for download are 24fps. I really don't think Apple will be receptive to aiding in ripped files playing properly on 3rd party apps.
Again, just an example... the fact remains that there is no 24.000 mode available. This applies to every app out there! So it doesn’t matter if you watch 24.000 content via Netflix, Amazon or Plex. Behavior is always th same.

Last edited by Sledgehamma; 03-04-2018 at 10:38 AM.
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post #6 of 280 Old 03-04-2018, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledgehamma View Post
So what is the HUD telling you?



It’s a web-dl, no reencoding, no capture etc. Problem is definitely on ATV, as I tested it with test patterns as well.

And DARK was just an example...see the other movies I posted.



Again, just an example... the fact remains that there is no 24.000 mode available. This applies to every app out there! So it doesn’t matter if you watch 24.000 content via Netflix, Amazon or Plex. Behavior is always th same.
The HUD says 23.xx to 24.x, just as it is supposed to for that particular show. A web d/l is a very compressed source hosted on a questionable server (not at all like Apple, Netflix or Amazon web services) and is likely a ripped bootleg of marginal. People don’t host blue ray iso’s online, some of these HDR movies are incredibly large and would constantly buffer.
Perhaps you should exchange your ATV4K with one that works as I haven’t heard others complaining about this.
As I said, post in the correct thread and you’ll get more responses (even if it’s not what you want to hear).
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post #7 of 280 Old 03-04-2018, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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1) why should it say that? I observe the exact opposite. Nevertheless, 23.976 is not equal to 24.000. Therefore, there are dropped frames.
2) please look up the definition of a web-dl.
3) I just tested with the native Netflix app and it’s the exact same result. Just go to episode 8 of DARK and watch the first scene when the boy drives on his bicycle. Around the 42second mark is a dropped frame.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeorwell View Post
Because the ripped files available for download are 24fps. I really don't think Apple will be receptive to aiding in ripped files playing properly on 3rd party apps.
Almost all Apple apps are 3rd party, including Netflix. I don't know why Apple wouldn't want to address this issue, but they probably won't. This is not just an illegally downloaded/piracy issue like you are alluding to.


@Sledgehamma - Besides this issue, and lack of audio passthrough, what is your overall impression of the ATV, especially for local content?
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post #9 of 280 Old 03-04-2018, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Some thoughts:
Very fast in operation
Picture quality with infuse is excellent, although there seem to be some clipping and color space issue. They are already investigating. Developers of Infuse are very open to suggestions and bugs.
PQ of MrMC not so great, Plex (native player) is the worst
Plex app is horrible playback wise
Gorgeous and sharp UI

Only big downsides right now are the lack of MVC and the 24.000 issue. I’m still deciding if I keep it or not.
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post #10 of 280 Old 03-05-2018, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledgehamma View Post
I recently got an ATV 4K and was watching the Netflix show DARK via Infuse when I noticed that there is some stutter.

After investigating it turns out that the new Apple TV 4K has no support for the integer framerates of 24.000 and 60.000, resulting in dropped frames every ~42 seconds (in the first case). This is due to:
  • video with 24.000 fps gets outputted as 23.976
  • video with 60.000 fps gets outputted as 59.94



Obviously, this is very annoying and every proper mediaplayer has support for it.



Sure, 24.000 is not the norm as the vast majority of movies is filmed at 23.976 frames and 60.000 content is even more scarce. Still, its a no brainer for apple to implement it.



I looked through my movie collection which consists of 269 movies and it turns out that 4% of them are 24.000 fps.

Movies include American Pie (1999), Rambo (2008) and Rules of Engagement (2000).



I was extremely surprised to find this as every publication which reported on Apples new and awesome "match framerate" did not mention this. I also couldn't find this in any review.



A thread I created at infuse forum:

https://firecore.com/forum/topic/20111

Another thread at MrMC:

https://mrmc.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1514&p=15562



So there is nothing Infuse, MrMC, Plex, etc can do about it as those framerates are just not available. Therefore, we need to make Apple aware of this problem here:



https://www.apple.com/feedback/appletv.html



I hope that they will add it in the future given enough people complain about it.


I have well over 2,000 films in my Plex/Emby library. Not a single one has a framerate of 24.000. This includes the three you listed. In fact, I am not aware of ANY movies even having been filmed at 24.000. They all follow NTSC and PAL structures.

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post #11 of 280 Old 03-05-2018, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledgehamma View Post
1) why should it say that? I observe the exact opposite. Nevertheless, 23.976 is not equal to 24.000. Therefore, there are dropped frames.

2) please look up the definition of a web-dl.

3) I just tested with the native Netflix app and it’s the exact same result. Just go to episode 8 of DARK and watch the first scene when the boy drives on his bicycle. Around the 42second mark is a dropped frame.


Film content via the ATV Netflix app is 23.976, confirmed via the developer HUD.
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post #12 of 280 Old 03-05-2018, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD-Master View Post
I have well over 2,000 films in my Plex/Emby library. Not a single one has a framerate of 24.000. This includes the three you listed. In fact, I am not aware of ANY movies even having been filmed at 24.000. They all follow NTSC and PAL structures.
How did you check the framerate? Most software uses 24p for both, 23.976 and 24.000.

Again, nothing wrong with my media. Two examples, both German BDs.

BDInfo
Code:
DISC INFO:

Disc Title:     American Pie
Disc Size:      22,716,602,084 bytes
Protection:     AACS
BD-Java:        No
BDInfo:         0.5.4

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:                   00002.MPLS
Length:                 1:35:36 (h:m:s)
Size:                   16,416,276,480 bytes
Total Bitrate:          22.90 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec                   Bitrate             Description     
-----                   -------             -----------     
MPEG-4 AVC Video        17175 kbps          1080p / 24 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
DTS-HD High-Res Audio           English         2046 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 2046 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)
DTS-HD High-Res Audio           German          2046 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 2046 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)
Dolby Digital Audio             English         224 kbps        2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps / DN -4dB

SUBTITLES:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
Presentation Graphics           German          48.865 kbps
Remux I created from this BD via makemkv. Mediainfo:
Code:
Video
ID                                       : 1
ID in the original source medium         : 4113 (0x1011)
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : [email protected]
Format settings                          : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, RefFrames               : 4 frames
Format settings, GOP                     : M=3, N=18
Codec ID                                 : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration                                 : 1 h 35 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 17.2 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 30.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 24.000 FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.345
Stream size                              : 11.5 GiB (88%)
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray


Rules of Engagement. BDInfo:
Code:
DISC INFO:

Disc Title:     Rules - Sekunden der Entscheidung
Disc Size:      37,528,040,656 bytes
Protection:     AACS
BD-Java:        No
BDInfo:         0.5.6

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:                   00000.MPLS
Length:                 2:07:19 (h:m:s)
Size:                   35,495,915,520 bytes
Total Bitrate:          37.17 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec                   Bitrate             Description     
-----                   -------             -----------     
MPEG-4 AVC Video        29994 kbps          1080p / 24 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
DTS-HD Master Audio             English         2293 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 2293 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio             German          2473 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 2473 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
Dolby Digital Audio             English         224 kbps        2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps / DN -3dB

SUBTITLES:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
Presentation Graphics           German          31.169 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           German          41.338 kbps
Remux. Mediainfo:
Code:
Video
ID                                       : 1
ID in the original source medium         : 4113 (0x1011)
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : [email protected]
Format settings                          : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, RefFrames               : 4 frames
Codec ID                                 : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration                                 : 2 h 7 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 30.0 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 33.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 24.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.602
Stream size                              : 26.7 GiB (93%)
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray
Quote:
Originally Posted by HD-Master View Post
Film content via the ATV Netflix app is 23.976, confirmed via the developer HUD.
I'll check my HUD later. Did you check the episode I mentioned for stutter at the 42 second mark?

//edit:
I just looked at some pictures showing the HUD and it seem to only display the refresh rate of the display. And that is exactly my point! The Show is 24.000 fps and the ATV outputs at 23.976 fps.

Last edited by Sledgehamma; 03-05-2018 at 07:25 AM.
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post #13 of 280 Old 03-05-2018, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledgehamma View Post
How did you check the framerate? Most software uses 24p for both, 23.976 and 24.000.



Again, nothing wrong with my media. Two examples, both German BDs.



BDInfo

Code:
DISC INFO:



Disc Title:     American Pie

Disc Size:      22,716,602,084 bytes

Protection:     AACS

BD-Java:        No

BDInfo:         0.5.4



PLAYLIST REPORT:



Name:                   00002.MPLS

Length:                 1:35:36 (h:m:s)

Size:                   16,416,276,480 bytes

Total Bitrate:          22.90 Mbps



VIDEO:



Codec                   Bitrate             Description     

-----                   -------             -----------     

MPEG-4 AVC Video        17175 kbps          1080p / 24 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1



AUDIO:



Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     

-----                           --------        -------         -----------     

DTS-HD High-Res Audio           English         2046 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 2046 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)

DTS-HD High-Res Audio           German          2046 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 2046 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)

Dolby Digital Audio             English         224 kbps        2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps / DN -4dB



SUBTITLES:



Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     

-----                           --------        -------         -----------     

Presentation Graphics           German          48.865 kbps


Remux I created from this BD via makemkv. Mediainfo:

Code:
Video

ID                                       : 1

ID in the original source medium         : 4113 (0x1011)

Format                                   : AVC

Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec

Format profile                           : [email protected]

Format settings                          : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames

Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes

Format settings, RefFrames               : 4 frames

Format settings, GOP                     : M=3, N=18

Codec ID                                 : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC

Duration                                 : 1 h 35 min

Bit rate mode                            : Variable

Bit rate                                 : 17.2 Mb/s

Maximum bit rate                         : 30.0 Mb/s

Width                                    : 1 920 pixels

Height                                   : 1 080 pixels

Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9

Frame rate mode                          : Constant

Frame rate                               : 24.000 FPS

Standard                                 : NTSC

Color space                              : YUV

Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0

Bit depth                                : 8 bits

Scan type                                : Progressive

Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.345

Stream size                              : 11.5 GiB (88%)

Language                                 : English

Default                                  : No

Forced                                   : No

Color range                              : Limited

Color primaries                          : BT.709

Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709

Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Original source medium                   : Blu-ray






Rules of Engagement. BDInfo:

Code:
DISC INFO:



Disc Title:     Rules - Sekunden der Entscheidung

Disc Size:      37,528,040,656 bytes

Protection:     AACS

BD-Java:        No

BDInfo:         0.5.6



PLAYLIST REPORT:



Name:                   00000.MPLS

Length:                 2:07:19 (h:m:s)

Size:                   35,495,915,520 bytes

Total Bitrate:          37.17 Mbps



VIDEO:



Codec                   Bitrate             Description     

-----                   -------             -----------     

MPEG-4 AVC Video        29994 kbps          1080p / 24 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1



AUDIO:



Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     

-----                           --------        -------         -----------     

DTS-HD Master Audio             English         2293 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 2293 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)

DTS-HD Master Audio             German          2473 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 2473 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)

Dolby Digital Audio             English         224 kbps        2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps / DN -3dB



SUBTITLES:



Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     

-----                           --------        -------         -----------     

Presentation Graphics           German          31.169 kbps                     

Presentation Graphics           German          41.338 kbps


Remux. Mediainfo:

Code:
Video

ID                                       : 1

ID in the original source medium         : 4113 (0x1011)

Format                                   : AVC

Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec

Format profile                           : [email protected]

Format settings                          : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames

Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes

Format settings, RefFrames               : 4 frames

Codec ID                                 : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC

Duration                                 : 2 h 7 min

Bit rate mode                            : Variable

Bit rate                                 : 30.0 Mb/s

Maximum bit rate                         : 33.0 Mb/s

Width                                    : 1 920 pixels

Height                                   : 1 080 pixels

Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9

Frame rate mode                          : Constant

Frame rate                               : 24.000 FPS

Color space                              : YUV

Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0

Bit depth                                : 8 bits

Scan type                                : Progressive

Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.602

Stream size                              : 26.7 GiB (93%)

Language                                 : English

Default                                  : No

Forced                                   : No

Color range                              : Limited

Color primaries                          : BT.709

Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709

Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Original source medium                   : Blu-ray






I'll check my HUD later. Did you check the episode I mentioned for stutter at the 42 second mark?


I can check the framerate of my own content with Plex, Emby and VLC. I can then verify via the tvOS developer HUD.

No, I have not checked that specific Netflix episode yet.

Here’s the thing though...24.000 isn’t possible with commercially available Blu-ray content from North America or Europe. Why? It isn’t part of the Blu-ray spec. The expedition to this is content from Asian markets and odd little independent outfits that put out niche projects. Your copies (of Rambo, American Pie, etc.), no matter if they are downloaded or ripped by you, should NOT be encoded at 24.000.
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post #14 of 280 Old 03-05-2018, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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See official BDA specs about BD which includes 24.000.
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Assets/Do...tion-15496.pdf

See my edit above. ATV HUD only reports refresh rate of display and not the content. Not sure about Plex and Ember, but VLC uses mediainfo, which is good.
Also, last time I checked Germany is part of Europe. These are retail discs, bought on Amazon.

Further movies are:
Bastille Day 2016
Just Friends - No Sex 2005
Paranormal Activity 2007 DE
Rammstein - Videos 1995 - 2012 DE
Rammstein in Amerika DE
Solomon Kane 2009
Intouchables 2011 DE
Top Gear - Polar Special 2007

The ones I marked with DE are German ones. The others I'm not sure. I'd need to check.
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post #15 of 280 Old 04-07-2018, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD-Master View Post
Here’s the thing though...24.000 isn’t possible with commercially available Blu-ray content from North America or Europe. Why? It isn’t part of the Blu-ray spec. The expedition to this is content from Asian markets and odd little independent outfits that put out niche projects. Your copies (of Rambo, American Pie, etc.), no matter if they are downloaded or ripped by you, should NOT be encoded at 24.000.
What absolute nonsense. The upper limit of the Blu-ray spec is 2160p at a maximum of 60 frames per second (p/Hz/fps). Everything under that goes. I own several BDs that have been mastered and presented in 24.000p and 25.000p. Try getting a hold of a French BD that isn't in 24.000p. Most Scandinavian and German BDs are 24.000p or often 25p. I'm far to lazy to check but I'm quite certain that all my Ealling Studio film BDs are 24.000p as is Paddington 1 and 2. It is ever so annoying as the latest Apple TV 4k software update (11.3) has only worsened the problem.

Remember, 23.976 became a standard only because of NTSC (59.94), not because film are shot in 23.976. They are not. Most are shot in 24.000 straight and then converted and mastered in 23.976 to lighten post-production in the distribution chain. As such, there is little incentive for European productions to master in 23.976 when it is mostly an American necessity. It would just be an extra cost that would yield little to no return. It's the same reason Netflix' own films are mastered in 24.000p -- they have no incentives to cater to the NTSC standard so they don't.

I just wish Apple would wake up to this fact, but as based on the time it took them do 23.976 properly I'm not holding my breath.
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post #16 of 280 Old 04-08-2018, 09:18 AM
 
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"Most software uses 24p for both, 23.976 and 24.000."

That is not true.

If that’s part of your premise from which you are drawing your conclusions your conclusions are incorrect because the foundation for your premise is flawed.

Last edited by jsmiddleton4; 04-08-2018 at 11:01 AM.
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post #17 of 280 Old 04-08-2018, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post
"Most software uses 24p for both, 23.976 and 24.000."

That is not true.

If that’s part of your premise from which you are drawing your conclusions your conclusions are incorrect because the foundation for your premise is flawed.
Well, obviously it is not as he states he uses Mediainfo to ascertain the correct frame rate. Do you have a problem with Mediainfo too?
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post #18 of 280 Old 06-02-2018, 01:15 AM
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Why so much hostility towards this genuine limitation of Apple TV.

The fact is that there is 24.00hz content in official apps right now, and so it must be addressed in order to avoid frame skips every now and then.

I was watching a film from India in Amazon Prime and my Epson 5040ub reported 23.97hz and the frame skips were noticeable, I played the same content on a Sony X700 and the projector reported 23.99hz with no frame skips.

I urge people susceptible to the frame skips give feedback to Apple so that hopefully this can be fixed:

https://www.apple.com/feedback/appletv.html
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post #19 of 280 Old 08-16-2018, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromvu View Post
Why so much hostility towards this genuine limitation of Apple TV.
I dont know why they are hostile and why they are not able to comprehend the issue.

I just noticed that the Italian 4K UHD BD of Death Wish (2018) uses 24.000 as well.....and here I though they weren't using it for UHD BDs

Code:
HEVC Video              72977 kbps          2160p / 24 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 4:2:0 / 10 bits / Limited Range / BT.2020 / PQ / BT.2020 non-constant
and

Code:
Video
ID                                       : 1
ID in the original source medium         : 4113 (0x1011)
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Commercial name                          : HDR10
Format profile                           : Main [email protected]@High
Codec ID                                 : V_MPEGH/ISO/HEVC
Duration                                 : 1 h 47 min
Bit rate                                 : 73.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 24.000 FPS
Standard                                 : Component
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0 (Type 2)
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.367
Stream size                              : 55.0 GiB (97%)
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics                 : PQ
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.2020 non-constant
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray
Mastering display color primaries        : Display P3
Mastering display luminance              : min: 0.0000 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level              : 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level        : 13 cd/m2
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post #20 of 280 Old 08-17-2018, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledgehamma View Post
I dont know why they are hostile and why they are not able to comprehend the issue.
Because it's been presented in a confusing fashion (there are mistakes in your statements) and the premise is contradicted by film/video professionals.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
UDP-203/ATV4K(6,2)/X3500H/LG C8
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post #21 of 280 Old 08-17-2018, 11:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledgehamma View Post
I dont know why they are hostile and why they are not able to comprehend the issue.
Because it's been presented in a confusing fashion (there are mistakes in your statements) and the premise is contradicted by film/video professionals.
Alright. Please tell me where I made mistakes in my statements.
The premise has been contradicted by “professionals”? Who do you mean by that? I have not seen a single piece of evidence which contradicted my claim. I posted proof for several examples in which 24.000 is used.
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post #22 of 280 Old 10-25-2018, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledgehamma View Post
I recently got an ATV 4K and was watching the Netflix show DARK via Infuse when I noticed that there is some stutter.
After investigating it turns out that the new Apple TV 4K has no support for the integer framerates of 24.000 and 60.000, resulting in dropped frames every ~42 seconds (in the first case). This is due to:
  • video with 24.000 fps gets outputted as 23.976
  • video with 60.000 fps gets outputted as 59.94

Obviously, this is very annoying and every proper mediaplayer has support for it.

Sure, 24.000 is not the norm as the vast majority of movies is filmed at 23.976 frames and 60.000 content is even more scarce. Still, its a no brainer for apple to implement it.

I looked through my movie collection which consists of 269 movies and it turns out that 4% of them are 24.000 fps.
Movies include American Pie (1999), Rambo (2008) and Rules of Engagement (2000).

I was extremely surprised to find this as every publication which reported on Apples new and awesome "match framerate" did not mention this. I also couldn't find this in any review.


So there is nothing Infuse, MrMC, Plex, etc can do about it as those framerates are just not available. Therefore, we need to make Apple aware of this problem here:


I hope that they will add it in the future given enough people complain about it.
Same here! This week I watched Dark series with Netflix App and I sow this annoying skip frame. Apple, please, fix it.
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post #23 of 280 Old 12-08-2018, 12:54 AM
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I also reported this problem with apple. I don't get my hopes up though. :-(
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post #24 of 280 Old 12-08-2018, 03:14 AM
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I reported the problem also to Apple early this year and a few days ago. I have some movies in my iTunes library that exhibit frame skips frequently, especially some Arrow releases. I downloaded those movies from iTunes that had those frequent frame skips and opened the M4V files with MediaInfo and I found out that they are encoded at 24.00 fps (not 23.976 fps). From what I gather, the 24 Hz (Film) refresh rate in the Apple TV 4k's video settings really is 23.976 Hz which is the frame rate most movies are encoded at and Apple TV 4k does not have the other refresh rate option which is 24.00 Hz which some movies are encoded at.

Last edited by Dave3000; 12-08-2018 at 03:26 AM.
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post #25 of 280 Old 12-08-2018, 06:00 AM
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All the new Studio Canal 4K remasters (John Carpenter, Rambo et al) are 24.000fps (Blu-ray & UHD). New-ish restoration of The Wages Of Fear is as well, and the remaster of Night Of the Demons. There are discussion threads on reduser where they go into the reasons for shooting (or presenting a finished master) at 23.976 or 24.000 depending on the territory (and subsequent ease of conversion for NTSC or PAL broadcast). Anything with the US market in mind tends to be 23.976, elsewhere it's a mix. Probably half my viewing is non-english language so I regularly see 24.000fps.
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post #26 of 280 Old 12-08-2018, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave3000 View Post
From what I gather, the 24 Hz (Film) refresh rate in the Apple TV 4k's video settings really is 23.976 Hz which is the frame rate most movies are encoded at and Apple TV 4k does not have the other refresh rate option which is 24.00 Hz which some movies are encoded at.
That is correct, the ATV does not support a refresh rate of 24.000 FPS, but sends it out as 23.976. Hence the stutter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuk View Post
All the new Studio Canal 4K remasters (John Carpenter, Rambo et al) are 24.000fps (Blu-ray & UHD). New-ish restoration of The Wages Of Fear is as well, and the remaster of Night Of the Demons. There are discussion threads on reduser where they go into the reasons for shooting (or presenting a finished master) at 23.976 or 24.000 depending on the territory (and subsequent ease of conversion for NTSC or PAL broadcast). Anything with the US market in mind tends to be 23.976, elsewhere it's a mix. Probably half my viewing is non-english language so I regularly see 24.000fps.
Damn it! I just checked Rambo UHD BDs and you are correct.
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post #27 of 280 Old 12-08-2018, 11:35 AM
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Is it common for Arrow releases on Blu-ray to be encoded at 24.00 fps? About half the Arrow releases I bought through iTunes are 24.00 fps and I'm wondering if the Blu-ray versions of these Arrow releases are the same?
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post #28 of 280 Old 12-09-2018, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
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Well, obviously it is not as he states he uses Mediainfo to ascertain the correct frame rate. Do you have a problem with Mediainfo too?
Well it isn’t true. He is testing what HE is playing. That is not “Most”.

Most does not use 24fps for BOTH. That is nonsense.
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post #29 of 280 Old 12-09-2018, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I shouldn’t have said that most software use that. I simply wanted to say that one should use a proper program like media info in order to determine the framerate as some programs or hardware don’t distinguish between 23.976 and 24.000. JVC projectors in the past couldn’t do so for example.
Can we now please focus on the ATVs inability to output 24fps video as 24fps? Thanks.
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post #30 of 280 Old 12-30-2018, 03:38 AM
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Bird Box on Netflix seems to be outputting at 24.00hz (at least the Dolby Vision stream). Causes frame skips/drop around every 40 seconds when played on my ATV 4K.
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