Apple TV 4K to Support Dolby Atmos - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 200 Old 06-06-2018, 08:29 PM
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Just to be clear (before I drop the coin to buy an apple tv 4k)
Will atmos be available when renting a movie, or just for purchased movies?
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post #62 of 200 Old 06-06-2018, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Shizzlenits View Post
That's all I need. Just give Infuse the capability to bitstream the HD source. They can already do it with TrueHD and DTS-HD MA. Hopefully this opens something up so they can get it done for TrueHD Atmos.
I do not have Infuse, but if Infuse actually bitstreams audio, then it doesn't matter what it is, it should pass through, should it not? In which case, if it already bitstreams True HD & DTS-HD MA, it should include Atmos or DTS:X.
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Originally Posted by klimo View Post
Help me out here.

Finding avenues to rent UHD/Atmos titles is few and far between. VUDU has some, which is nice. Though, I will click on a VUDU title with UHD/Atmos and the only option to get UHD/Atmos is to PURCHASE the title. Well, I'll just go buy the actual blu ray in that case. This is when the full release has already happened and the HDX version is available for rent. This is super annoying and limits an already limited rental pool of UHD/Atmos.

With Apple, will they do an actual full release of UHD/Atmos via rentals? Will it be production company wide, unlike VUDUs limited pool?

I will 100% dive into the apple TV if it provides all the same new releases that I can purchase.

I enjoy to purchase titles that I think are good movies. I 100% rent movies that I wouldn't normally watch purely bc of UHD/Atmos and would prefer to save the 15-20$ on single watch movies.
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Originally Posted by stuart628 View Post
Right now with my Roku it takes 4k content to get Dolby Atmos on Vudu and netflix that's what I was asking if Apple TV will support Dolby Atmos on just hd titles itunes.

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Originally Posted by nzchurbro View Post
Just to be clear (before I drop the coin to buy an apple tv 4k)
Will atmos be available when renting a movie, or just for purchased movies?
(Now, below assumes tvOS 12 brings DD+ Atmos to both ATV 4th gen. (1080p) & ATV 4K).

Apple doesn't do things the same way as VUDU. The way Apple does it with iTunes content, (unless you rent/buy SD), you will stream the highest quality available for your device. In other words, if a title is listed as 4K DV and DA, and you have the ATV 4th gen. (1080p), when you rent or buy it you will be streaming it in 1080p and the audio will be DD+ Atmos (however they implement it). If you have the ATV 4K (and enough bandwidth) you will be streaming it in 4K DV with DD+ Atmos audio, (if you have the ATV 4K hooked up to a 1080p display then you will get the same results as the ATV 4th gen.). If you rent or buy and stream via an ATV 3rd gen. it will stream 1080p with up to DD 5.1 audio, (same for iTunes on a Mac or PC).

In other words, they have two prices, one for SD one for highest resolution available, whether that be HD or 4K. And it is the same with renting or buying.

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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Yes, of course, no source device decodes Dolby Atmos, so the Apple TV 4K must be passing the bitstream along to the sound system. I updated the article to reflect this. As a result, Apple's claim that the Apple TV 4K is the only standalone streamer to support both Dolby Vision and Atmos is false; the Chromecast Ultra does it as well.
As I understand it, the Chromecast Ultra is not a standalone streamer. (Also, they said DV & DA Certified.)

Couldn't Apple do something different and decode the DD+ Atmos audio, mix it with the system sounds and output a DD+ Atmos audio stream? I mean, they currently decode the incoming audio and mix it with the system sounds and output LPCM.
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post #63 of 200 Old 06-06-2018, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by benji888578 View Post
(Now, below assumes tvOS 12 brings DD+ Atmos to both ATV 4th gen. (1080p) & ATV 4K).
Not a lot of detail online as whether the tvos 12 brings atmos to a 4th gen apple tv. Hazy at best... be interesting to see if it does or not.
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post #64 of 200 Old 06-06-2018, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by nzchurbro View Post
Not a lot of detail online as whether the tvos 12 brings atmos to a 4th gen apple tv. Hazy at best... be interesting to see if it does or not.
We don't know yet, developers with the tvOS 12 beta say that Atmos is not in the first beta.

I would be surprised if the 4th gen. ATV does not get Atmos. Both ATV 4th gen. & 4K have exactly the same audio capabilities, and the 4th gen. has HDMI 1.4 support. I.E. FLAC was introduced with the 4K, however, tvOS 11 brought FLAC to the ATV 4th gen. also. (tvOS 11 also added HEVC support for SDR 1080p to the 4th gen. That's probably for compatibility with HEVC video in iOS 11 iDevices.).
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post #65 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by funky54 View Post
Destroyed superior physical media, destroyed quality artists doing quality concepts and synergy on albums... all thanks to ITunes.
Apple did not invent the MP3 format. Consumers ultimately decide where the market goes. People wanted their music to be portable (iPod) and as digital downloads (MP3, Flac etc...). Apple provided the medium to do this along with other manufacturers. Bands are still putting great music on CD, and vinyl. But consumers also have additional choices with iTunes, Spotify etc...

Please provides details on which "quality artists doing quality concepts" that were destroyed...
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post #66 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benji888578 View Post
I do not have Infuse, but if Infuse actually bitstreams audio, then it doesn't matter what it is, it should pass through, should it not? In which case, if it already bitstreams True HD & DTS-HD MA, it should include Atmos or DTS:X.
Immersive metadata is apparently a different situation.

https://support.firecore.com/hc/en-u...-Options-tvOS-
Quote:
What about Dolby Atmos and DTS-X?

Unfortunately, the Apple TV does not currently support these formats. Infuse will send the lossless audio to your receiver, but will not include the special metadata that is required for some features.
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post #67 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
Its likely there is an Atmos or dts:X flag embedded in the Bitstream and that is what they are testing against. I'm assuming Dolby gets presidence because it's the dominant 3d audio codec on UHD. Pretty sure once they have Atmos signed off and working it wont be too long before dts:X is supported.
I'm not. I fully expect PCM output for everything except Atmos content. The way Dolby is going they want to try and squeeze out DTS. So I wouldn't be surprised if all Apple is doing is allowing bitstreaming for DD+ Atmos content only. While leaving everything else as PCM output.

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post #68 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
I'm not. I fully expect PCM output for everything except Atmos content. The way Dolby is going they want to try and squeeze out DTS. So I wouldn't be surprised if all Apple is doing is allowing bitstreaming for DD+ Atmos content only. While leaving everything else as PCM output.


I’m sure your right about Dolby wanting to squeeze dts out of the market but it’s not really up to them. I’m sure there will be plenty of dts folks lobbying Apple to support dts:X


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post #69 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
I’m sure your right about Dolby wanting to squeeze dts out of the market but it’s not really up to them. I’m sure there will be plenty of dts folks lobbying Apple to support dts:X


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While in theory, I agree with you, we don't know how much $$$$$$ exchanged hands between Apple and Dolby (if any) that might have made this a one player party.

I just hope that the audio data that the ATV provides is not compromised in any way.

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post #70 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
While in theory, I agree with you, we don't know how much $$$$$$ exchanged hands between Apple and Dolby (if any) that might have made this a one player party.

I just hope that the audio data that the ATV provides is not compromised in any way.
I agree with this! There easily could have been an exclusive deal worked out. Though, Apple being who they are, holds all the power and I doubt they would concede another revenue stream in DTS:X.

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post #71 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
While in theory, I agree with you, we don't know how much $$$$$$ exchanged hands between Apple and Dolby (if any) that might have made this a one player party.

I just hope that the audio data that the ATV provides is not compromised in any way.
Dolby owns the streaming market and has for years. It's no surprise that the ATV and iTunes store only support Dolby. Apple has never been the "support every format" kind of company.

They pick a format/option that is dominant (or they think will be dominant) and stick with it. All a numbers game.

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post #72 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Shizzlenits View Post
Immersive metadata is apparently a different situation.

https://support.firecore.com/hc/en-u...-Options-tvOS-
OK, now I understand.

It looks like Infuse is doing a workaround as tvOS is not set up for pass-through of audio. So, Infuse decodes the lossless formats and re-encodes them as PCM. Since PCM does not recognize metadata, (so metadata is dropped or lost), it is limited to discrete channels. I'm not sure if it's tvOS or the PCM format itself, but, in the ATV 4th gen. & 4K PCM is limited to 7.1 channels.

Infuse's pass through option only passes DD/DTS lossy, however, it seems to not be currently working...from what I read, since sometime in tvOS 10.something.

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post #73 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 10:16 AM
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Those wanting DTS support, are you ripping discs or just for streaming content?

If you are not a ripper, there is no need for DTS support. Titles that are released with DTS:X on disc are streaming with DD or DD+ lossy audio.

>> To be clear, Dolby Atmos for streaming content is lossy Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) Atmos.

DD+ is a better encode than DD with many more channels available and has more bandwidth available, and does support metadata (for Atmos). So, VUDU's Atmos is DD+ Atmos, same will be with iTunes, it's the same with Netflix and any other streaming service. (Also, broadcast & cable may use dolby formats also, but, no DTS.)

The bandwidth necessary to steam lossless audio is about the same bandwidth as streaming/VOD 1080p compressed video. It's not going to happen anytime soon.

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post #74 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by benji888578 View Post
OK, now I understand.

It looks like Infuse is doing a workaround as tvOS is not set up for pass-through of audio. So, Infuse decodes the lossless formats and re-encodes them as PCM. Since PCM does not recognize metadata, (so metadata is dropped or lost), it is limited to discrete channels. I'm not sure if it's tvOS or the PCM format itself, but, in the ATV 4th gen. & 4K PCM is limited to 7.1 channels.

Infuse's pass through option only passes DD/DTS lossy, however, it seems to not be currently working...from what I read, since sometime in tvOS 10.something.
Yeah, Infuse wrote their own decoder. That's why Infuse can "DirectPlay" pretty much any file in Plex, whereas the official Plex app has to transcode any audio above lossy Dolby Digital.

Hopefully they can get Atmos working with a TrueHD and not just the streaming-style DD+ core.

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Originally Posted by benji888578 View Post
Those wanting DTS support, are you ripping discs or just for streaming content?

If you are not a ripper, there is no need for DTS support. Titles that are released with DTS:X on disc are streaming with DD or DD+ lossy audio.
I mean, the goal isn't just to get it a file to play. That's easy. The goal is to get a file to play with lossless audio. If I didn't care about audio quality I'd just buy movies from iTunes.
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post #75 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 11:30 AM
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DV for instance at this point and time is virtually not needed. Yet look at all the decisions made based on who can and can’t do what is years from being relevant.
Those on this forum tend to overestimate how much the general population weighs technical things like DV, HDR, Atmos when buying a TV or player. They make decision based on what is shiny, on sale, and the 18yr old employee at best buy pushes.

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post #76 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Skunkbeard View Post
So, what is the Chromecast Ultra and the Sony UBP-X700, then? Chopped liver? They do both Vision and Atmos concurrently from Vudu.

I guess it depends on what their definition of a "streaming player" is?
Well the chromecast actually fits well into the analogy of chopped liver, because it's not any good unless you add sauce to cover up its terrible underlying nature. The UBPX700 is not a pure streaming only device, which is why it gets left out.

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post #77 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Jish9 View Post
If in fact it does allow bitstreaming of ATMOS, then this becomes the kiss of death for Kleidescape!! Infuse could bitstream the audio for your personal library, and you can stream any UHD movie you like from one of the biggest libraries in ATMOS (or some variant) all for $199!!!!! Looks like Kleidescape is about to get the shaft AGAIN!
Not even a comparison. Apple only use DD+ Atmos (lossy) and low bitrate 4K video streaming.

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post #78 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Not even a comparison. Apple only use DD+ Atmos (lossy) and low bitrate 4K video streaming.
If the highlighted area is accurate, then K is fine. If it is true lossless, then I do think K is in trouble.

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post #79 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 01:02 PM
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Something no one in this thread seems to have brought up is the footnote 1 at the bottom of the ATV4K page:
Quote:
Not all content is available in 4K or 4K HDR. 4K resolution requires 4K capable TV. Accessing Dolby Atmos features requires Dolby Atmos–enabled speakers. Playback quality will depend on hardware and Internet connection.
Doesn't this mean it should be bitstream and not a conversion?
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post #80 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dude22072 View Post
Something no one in this thread seems to have brought up is the footnote 1 at the bottom of the ATV4K page:

Doesn't this mean it should be bitstream and not a conversion?
Atmos has to be bitstreamed and processed by an audio device, typically and AVR or sound bar. That's not really in question. All other streaming devices/services with Atmos use Dolby Digital Plus as the underlying codec and this is also the presumption, rather than the lossless Dolby TrueHD seen on discs which would require too much bandwidth. The main questions floating around are if bitstreaming DD+/Atmos will be limited to iTunes streaming or will other apps be able to do it and will they also be able to bitstream lossless codecs usually from disc rips.

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post #81 of 200 Old 06-07-2018, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dude22072 View Post
Something no one in this thread seems to have brought up is the footnote 1 at the bottom of the ATV4K page:

Doesn't this mean it should be bitstream and not a conversion?
Just look at the Roku. It has no problem sending atmos content and bitstreaming DD+ or DD. But it won't bitstream Dolby True HD..

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post #82 of 200 Old 06-08-2018, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Not even a comparison. Apple only use DD+ Atmos (lossy) and low bitrate 4K video streaming.
That is the million dollar question right now. Is it just marketing hype and word manipulation or will it actually bitstream lossless audio? We'll find out in the fall with the release. As for the low bitrate 4K streaming, it still looks pretty damn good; but that is a personal opinion (and content specific).
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post #83 of 200 Old 06-08-2018, 08:06 AM
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I'm satisfied with VUDUs 4k/HDR streams. Are Apples of similar quality?

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post #84 of 200 Old 06-08-2018, 08:47 AM
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@dude22072 . "Dolby Atmos Enabled" speakers are the up-firing type always found in Atmos-capable soundbars. If this quote is absolutely true to what it says, it means that if one has on-ceiling Atmos speakers, they "won't get Atmos". OR, this could be clumsy phraseology and meant to say "Dolby Atmos decoding-capable receivers or soundbars". I wonder which it is?

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post #85 of 200 Old 06-08-2018, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jish9 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Not even a comparison. Apple only use DD+ Atmos (lossy) and low bitrate 4K video streaming.
That is the million dollar question right now. Is it just marketing hype and word manipulation or will it actually bitstream lossless audio? We'll find out in the fall with the release. As for the low bitrate 4K streaming, it still looks pretty damn good; but that is a personal opinion (and content specific).
Honestly although I can easily see the difference between ATV 4K and UHD BD, it’s good enough that it’s acceptable for my 113” screen viewed from 8ft away. As for sound, during its planning state, it was mentioned that the Atmos will be the DD+ variety, not lossless Atmos. But again, for me, ATV is just a rental equivalent so DD+ Atmos will be acceptable enough for me.

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post #86 of 200 Old 06-08-2018, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Jish9 View Post
What is confusing from the Apple presentation is that ATMOS & DTS:X can only be bitstreamed from the source to be decoded by the processor; meaning a) no streaming device currently decodes immersive audio, and b) you need an actual AV processor to do the job. Yet in her presentation, all that was required (according to them) was an ATMOS enabled sound bar and Apple TV 4K. This would lead one to believe that the lossy (EAC3) version of the metadata is what is being streamed which is then reproduced via the sound bar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledgehamma View Post
Of course the ATV will bitstream the audio. Otherwise it’s impossible to get Atmos....
However, this does not mean that they will enable pass through of TrueHD or DTS-HD.


I just read through this whole thread as I was excited to hear that the ATV4K is getting Atmos in the fall! I've heard a lot of good things about it but the lack of Atmos meant it was a no-go. Most of my Atmos material are rips of my physical discs tho, so playing lossless Atmos is a must before I buy one.


There is a lot of speculation about whether the ATV4K will bitstream lossless TrueHD Atmos, or only support DD+/Atmos. I can understand the assumption of only supporting DD+/Atmos since that's what the streaming services use, so for most people there is no need to support more. I can also understand the assumption of allowing bitstreaming of Atmos, since traditionally you need to allow bitstream to get the metadata for Atmos to work (and DTS:X). I've highlighted this in the quotes above. I would agree, except for the existence of one device that throws a curveball into this - the Xbox One. When you set the Xbox One to Atmos, it takes every incoming audio stream, decodes it to PCM, then encodes it in real-time into an Atmos stream for output - applying whatever channel info and metadata it needs. It doesn't matter if your source is stereo, DD, DTS, DD+, Atmos, game audio or what have you, it converts it all to an Atmos stream, which you then need an Atmos capable receiver of some sort to handle it. So it's not quite true that no device decodes immersive audio, since it looks like the Xbox One can, but it does need to re-encode it as an Atmos bitstream so that it can be processed further along the chain.


So what does all this mean to the ATV4K? Only more speculation, unfortunately. We don't know any details about how it will handle Atmos. Will it only output Atmos when the source is in Atmos, and offer PCM for everything else? Or when you turn on Atmos will it be all-the-time, everything-in-Atmos a la the Xbox One? If it's like the Xbox One, it could decode everything to PCM and output a "lossless" Atmos stream - in which case it should handle lossless TrueHD Atmos just fine. Or it could decode everything coming in and re-encode all output as a DD+/Atmos stream - even if the original source is lossless. Or it could just monitor the incoming audio stream for metadata and only allow passthrough of DD+/Atmos, and decode lossless TrueHD Atmos to PCM - losing the heights. Or some other combination.



Ultimately, we will need to wait a little longer to see how the ATV4K handles Atmos. It could go a lot of ways. We can't assume that because it has Atmos it "must" be bitstreaming. It may be a unique case, but we do have one device that breaks the rules here, due it its real-time encoding of Atmos. Will the ATV4K follow suit, and have limitations because of it? Or will they do things in a more traditional way and just allow bitstreaming? We won't know at least until the update hits the beta testers, when we will be able to find out exactly what they are doing and if there are any limitations. Then I can decide whether I'm going to buy one or not!
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Last edited by Lonewolf7002; 06-08-2018 at 11:55 AM.
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post #87 of 200 Old 06-08-2018, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf7002 View Post
There is a lot of speculation about whether the ATV4K will bitstream, or only support DD+/Atmos.
That sentence is wrong as sending Atmos via DD+ already is bitstreaming.


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Originally Posted by Lonewolf7002 View Post
If it's like the Xbox One, it could decode everything to PCM and output a "lossless" Atmos stream - in which case it should handle lossless TrueHD Atmos just fine.
It’s an interesting idea actually. Especially since DD+ can go up to 6mbit. This might be a possible workaround for apps like Infuse as they are already able to decode TrueHD.
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post #88 of 200 Old 06-08-2018, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Sledgehamma View Post
That sentence is wrong as sending Atmos via DD+ already is bitstreaming.

It’s an interesting idea actually. Especially since DD+ can go up to 6mbit. This might be a possible workaround for apps like Infuse as they are already able to decode TrueHD.

Yes, you are correct. I had meant bitstreaming lossless TrueHD Atmos as opposed to lossly. I'll go back and edit it to make more sense.


And depending on how the ATV4K handles Atmos, there are a lot of possibilities. It also depends on how much access they give to the app developers. Too much is speculation right now

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post #89 of 200 Old 06-08-2018, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf7002 View Post
I just read through this whole thread as I was excited to hear that the ATV4K is getting Atmos in the fall! I've heard a lot of good things about it but the lack of Atmos meant it was a no-go. Most of my Atmos material are rips of my physical discs tho, so playing lossless Atmos is a must before I buy one.


There is a lot of speculation about whether the ATV4K will bitstream lossless TrueHD Atmos, or only support DD+/Atmos. I can understand the assumption of only supporting DD+/Atmos since that's what the streaming services use, so for most people there is no need to support more. I can also understand the assumption of allowing bitstreaming of Atmos, since traditionally you need to allow bitstream to get the metadata for Atmos to work (and DTS:X). I've highlighted this in the quotes above. I would agree, except for the existence of one device that throws a curveball into this - the Xbox One. When you set the Xbox One to Atmos, it takes every incoming audio stream, decodes it to PCM, then encodes it in real-time into an Atmos stream for output - applying whatever channel info and metadata it needs. It doesn't matter if your source is stereo, DD, DTS, DD+, Atmos, game audio or what have you, it converts it all to an Atmos stream, which you then need an Atmos capable receiver of some sort to handle it. So it's not quite true that no device decodes immersive audio, since it looks like the Xbox One can, but it does need to re-encode it as an Atmos bitstream so that it can be processed further along the chain.


.......
Prior to Microsoft borking their audio output by constantly having Atmos output, it worked great. It would only send Atmos for Atmos content. And it would send 7.1 PCM output when needed. And send 2.0 PCM output when needed. MS took a huge audio step backwards to doing crap like they were doing in 2013.

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post #90 of 200 Old 06-08-2018, 12:53 PM
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Prior to Microsoft borking their audio output by constantly having Atmos output, it worked great. It would only send Atmos for Atmos content. And it would send 7.1 PCM output when needed. And send 2.0 PCM output when needed. MS took a huge audio step backwards to doing crap like they were doing in 2013.

For most people (myself included), when you set the Xbox to Atmos and played a non-Atmos source, it would play back as Dolby Surround. Meaning it was upmixed. There was no way to get stereo or only 5.1, everything was upmixed to include heights and all speakers, all the time. You had to go into the settings and turn off Atmos to stop this. For some people, the current way stops them from using their upmixers, for others it is a godsend! But regardless of how it used to work, this is the way it works now and it illustrates my point above that a device doesn't "have to" bitstream the source audio to get Atmos. Will more devices, like the ATV4K, adopt real-time encoding to Atmos for everything? I'm hoping not, but if for some reason Apple feels the ATV4K needs to include system sounds along with the sound output, it will need to decode the audio so that it can mix in the system sounds, then re-encode it again. I personally could do without the system sounds, but I don't get to have a say in its design.

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