New Zidoo Z9S and Z10 (RTD1296 SoC) - Page 46 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1351 of 1557 Old 05-29-2019, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Whirlpool0548 View Post
Is it such a great idea anyway......

If you understand it, then yes it is.


That guy doesn't.


It's a fairly niche application, most people won't have use of it - you won't - but for pj owners who want an alternative to internal or custom gamma curves - ie letting the box map the luminance but staying within the correct gamut, it's an interesting proposition.


That's not to say they'll get the gamma right - but if not, it can still be corrected externally anyway.


The only boxes I'm aware of that do this at the moment are the Panasonic and Oppo Blu-Ray players. Maybe Pioneer do - I don't know..
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post #1352 of 1557 Old 05-29-2019, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
If you understand it, then yes it is.


That guy doesn't.


It's a fairly niche application, most people won't have use of it - you won't - but for pj owners who want an alternative to internal or custom gamma curves - ie letting the box map the luminance but staying within the correct gamut, it's an interesting proposition.


That's not to say they'll get the gamma right - but if not, it can still be corrected externally anyway.

Sorry, this guy does and that's why he posted a quote outlining why it's not the projector panacea it appears to be.
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post #1353 of 1557 Old 05-29-2019, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirlpool0548 View Post
Sorry, this guy does and that's why he posted a quote outlining why it's not the projector panacea it appears to be.

What he wrote there shows no indication of that so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but for those for whom it matters, this is an interesting option.


Anyway - new page - it's time to tell us about seamless branching and menus again...
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post #1354 of 1557 Old 05-29-2019, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
What he wrote there shows no indication of that so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but for those for whom it matters, this is an interesting option.


Anyway - new page - it's time to tell us about seamless branching and menus again...
Why would I need to do that for a player with “agile functionality” and “flawless 4K playback” ?
What could go wrong ?

(I didn’t quote the whole post because I didn’t want to deflate your expectations, but he did refer to it as “Snake Oil” for projector owners).

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post #1355 of 1557 Old 05-29-2019, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirlpool0548 View Post
Why would I need to do that for a player with “agile functionality” and “flawless 4K playback” ?
What could go wrong ?

(I didn’t quote the whole post because I didn’t want to deflate your expectations, but he did refer to it as “Snake Oil” for projector owners).

Come on mate, keep up! I've already said that this mode will be of no use to you, so I'm not really sure why you feel the need to comment other than to continue your negative and somewhat predictable crusade against Zidoo.


SDR 2020 is certainly not a panacea and at no point did I imply it was, but well done finding the word.


It is most definitely not snake oil either as quoted by your ill informed friend.

It is most useful to those with projectors that are able to natively display BT.2020 but do not have the ability to provide an ST.2084 PQ gamma curve (Epson LS10000 is I think an example, but there are many more).


It is also of interest to those who have projectors with ST.2084 functionality but who are not happy with the results - it provides another alternative to display "HDR" material without the need of a colour space conversion - particularly useful for those who do not want to get into the intricacies of custom gamma curves. You can keep the correct colour space and let the box do the luminance gamma.


In reality, it doesn't matter which end of the chain this transfer function is applied, as long as it's done properly and as I said earlier, the success of this mode will depend upon the accuracy of the gamma(s) Zidoo provides, however at that point they output a standard power law gamma, so theoretically discrepancies are easy to compensate for.


Have to be honest, I probably won't use it as I have gamma curves I designed myself that work great for HDR material, but I'm looking forward to trying it.
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post #1356 of 1557 Old 05-29-2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
Come on mate, keep up! I've already said that this mode will be of no use to you, so I'm not really sure why you feel the need to comment other than to continue your negative and somewhat predictable crusade against Zidoo.


SDR 2020 is certainly not a panacea and at no point did I imply it was, but well done finding the word.


It is most definitely not snake oil either as quoted by your ill informed friend.

It is most useful to those with projectors that are able to natively display BT.2020 but do not have the ability to provide an ST.2084 PQ gamma curve (Epson LS10000 is I think an example, but there are many more).


It is also of interest to those who have projectors with ST.2084 functionality but who are not happy with the results - it provides another alternative to display "HDR" material without the need of a colour space conversion - particularly useful for those who do not want to get into the intricacies of custom gamma curves. You can keep the correct colour space and let the box do the luminance gamma.


In reality, it doesn't matter which end of the chain this transfer function is applied, as long as it's done properly and as I said earlier, the success of this mode will depend upon the accuracy of the gamma(s) Zidoo provides, however at that point they output a standard power law gamma, so theoretically discrepancies are easy to compensate for.


Have to be honest, I probably won't use it as I have gamma curves I designed myself that work great for HDR material, but I'm looking forward to trying it.
Try it, but I suspect that as with the Dune Solo 4k’s quasi HDR mode, which initially appeared to be a possible substitute for a player with full HDR support, you won’t be satisfied with SD.2020. But good luck with it.
If you check back on the X9S forum, it’s something Zidoo tried a while ago, but the results weren’t welcomed.
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post #1357 of 1557 Old 05-29-2019, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirlpool0548 View Post
Try it, but I suspect that as with the Dune Solo 4k’s quasi HDR mode, which initially appeared to be a possible substitute for a player with full HDR support, you won’t be satisfied with SD.2020. But good luck with it.
If you check back on the X9S forum, it’s something Zidoo tried a while ago, but the results weren’t welcomed.

The Solo was a different proposition altogether - that was HDMI 1.4 (from memory) and certainly didn't output BT.2020 - that "conversion" was simply ramped up saturation in Rec.709 and fiddling with black and white level - very primitive and deeply unsatisfactory. Not to mention, regardless of settings it could do not more than process at 8-bit internally so suffered the same issues the current Zidoos and Dunes do at 4K23 12-bit 4:2:2.


I think you'll be right - I won't be satisfied, but then it's not really aimed at my setup. I am however very curious to see how well they implement it.


The Panny 820 does a grand job since they got a handle on the gamma adjustments. In fact the Panny would be a great option for local streaming except for their capitulation to the studios in disabling HD audio for network playback.


I don't believe the X9S ever had the option for BT.2020 SDR output, but I'd be happy to be corrected.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
The Solo was a different proposition altogether - that was HDMI 1.4 (from memory) and certainly didn't output BT.2020 - that "conversion" was simply ramped up saturation in Rec.709 and fiddling with black and white level - very primitive and deeply unsatisfactory. Not to mention, regardless of settings it could do not more than process at 8-bit internally so suffered the same issues the current Zidoos and Dunes do at 4K23 12-bit 4:2:2.


I think you'll be right - I won't be satisfied, but then it's not really aimed at my setup. I am however very curious to see how well they implement it.


The Panny 820 does a grand job since they got a handle on the gamma adjustments. In fact the Panny would be a great option for local streaming except for their capitulation to the studios in disabling HD audio for network playback.


I don't believe the X9S ever had the option for BT.2020 SDR output, but I'd be happy to be corrected.
The x9S did support BT.2020, I’ll find the link.
I was referring the quasi HDR mode on the Pro 4K as an illustration only.

At one point the X9S did output wide color gamut, when it detected a 4K output device. It was reported as a bug, because it was an "undefeatable" default it was a nuisance, any non HDR content, even menus were automatically displayed incorrectly if you chose 4K as an output resolution. It was pulled or modified not to be the default.
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post #1359 of 1557 Old 05-29-2019, 05:44 PM
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SDR.2020 is very useful for projectors when used in conjunction with a video processor (e.g. Lumagen or MadVR) that does dynamic tone mapping.

Of course in the context of Zidoo at the moment only the Lunagen offering is relevant until Madshi’s non htpc offering is available.
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Originally Posted by Apgood View Post
SDR.2020 is very useful for projectors when used in conjunction with a video processor (e.g. Lumagen or MadVR) that does dynamic tone mapping.

Of course in the context of Zidoo at the moment only the Lunagen offering is relevant until Madshi’s non htpc offering is available.
If I watch HDR on my zidoo or appletv, I force my projector to SDR2020 on the projector itself, so I can use a custom curve. If my projector didn't allow forcing SDR2020, I'd need to be able to turn of the HDR flag on the player. I think some projector owners have something like one of those HDFury devices to switch if off.

My Panasonic UB9000 has great projector tone mapping, so I still have the projector on SDR2020, with a standard 2.4 gamma curve

To be honest the whole 4k HDR era has been an utter XXXXshow from end to end, with handshaking, why you need tone mapping, and just general silliness. It doesn't integrate very well.
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post #1361 of 1557 Old 05-29-2019, 10:27 PM
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Hi all,

when through the posts, most, and am deciding should i upgrade the zidoo X9s to the Z9s.

Any existing owners of the Z9s came from the X9s and is the upgrade justifiable in terms of overall improvement? May i be audio or video?

Thanks

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post #1362 of 1557 Old 05-30-2019, 02:21 AM
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Hi all,

when through the posts, most, and am deciding should i upgrade the zidoo X9s to the Z9s.

Any existing owners of the Z9s came from the X9s and is the upgrade justifiable in terms of overall improvement? May i be audio or video?

Thanks

I have both boxes and as far my experience goes, the only difference is a slight increase in speed and HDR handling.


The Z9S is slightly quicker through the menus, app startup, HT2 etc, but it's not a huge difference.


The X9S only has HDR Auto or off


The Z9S has HDR Auto, HDR to SDR (with 3 gammas), SDR mapping HDR and we have been told it will have SDR 2020 in an upcoming firmware release.


I haven't seen any change in image quality and of course audio, since it is generally passthrough, remains the same.


I use both exclusively for 4K material.

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3 x PMC IB2S fronts | 4 x PMC Wafer 2 rears | 4 x PMC Wafer 1 ceiling | 2 x M&K SS550 THX height | Rel Stentor III
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post #1363 of 1557 Old 05-30-2019, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
If I watch HDR on my zidoo or appletv, I force my projector to SDR2020 on the projector itself, so I can use a custom curve. If my projector didn't allow forcing SDR2020, I'd need to be able to turn of the HDR flag on the player. I think some projector owners have something like one of those HDFury devices to switch if off.

My Panasonic UB9000 has great projector tone mapping, so I still have the projector on SDR2020, with a standard 2.4 gamma curve

To be honest the whole 4k HDR era has been an utter XXXXshow from end to end, with handshaking, why you need tone mapping, and just general silliness. It doesn't integrate very well.
Which projector do you have out of interest? As you mention, I need to use a vertex to remove the HDR SEI.

It'll certainly be very be interesting to hear a comparison of SDR2020 from your Panny to the Zidoo when the firmware hits.

I tend to agree about the XXXXshow - it was a complete cluster XXXX at the start, but it's starting to come together now - get the settings right and cinematically, 4K HDR almost looks as good as 2K BluRay now

As for tone mapping - I've posted this before, so apologies if you've seen it, but it's the best explanation of why we need tone mapping I've seen:

https://www.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html


In my opinion, and again, cinematically speaking, HDR seems to be an awful lot of work to make clouds look better.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
I have both boxes and as far my experience goes, the only difference is a slight increase in speed and HDR handling.


The Z9S is slightly quicker through the menus, app startup, HT2 etc, but it's not a huge difference.


The X9S only has HDR Auto or off


The Z9S has HDR Auto, HDR to SDR (with 3 gammas), SDR mapping HDR and we have been told it will have SDR 2020 in an upcoming firmware release.


I haven't seen any change in image quality and of course audio, since it is generally passthrough, remains the same.


I use both exclusively for 4K material.
Cheers.

Thanks for the clear comparison between the 2. It seems like that's not a lot of changes to warrant an upgrade.

May just hold onto the x9s longer and wait for one with 'bigger' changes.

Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Apgood View Post
SDR.2020 is very useful for projectors when used in conjunction with a video processor (e.g. Lumagen or MadVR) that does dynamic tone mapping.

Of course in the context of Zidoo at the moment only the Lunagen offering is relevant until Madshi’s non htpc offering is available.
I currently run my Zidoo and Panasonic 9000 through a Lumagen (and vertex) and use the Dynamic Tone Mapping along with its other capabilities. After the Lumagen does its processing the PQ of my modified X20 Pro stands up well against the Panny 9000.
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I currently run my Zidoo and Panasonic 9000 through a Lumagen (and vertex) and use the Dynamic Tone Mapping along with its other capabilities. After the Lumagen does its processing the PQ of my modified X20 Pro stands up well against the Panny 9000.
When you say modified, what do you mean?

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When you say modified, what do you mean?
Mostly extra RFI/EMI shielding. I have a complex video chain with the Lumagen acting as the switcher:
(Zidoo,Panny 9000, etc)>Lumagen > Vertex > 75ft Ruipro > Gelfen HDMI splitter > Sim2 Duo Projectors (2).
I also split Audio and Video at the source where supported with the audio bypassing the Lumagen.
In addition to an RFI/EMI filtering power conditioning, there are varying degree's of additional shielding along the video path.

One very noticeable result is there is almost never an HDMI handshake issue, also no video noise. I'm very happy with the
Zidoo PQ, but I can't say how much of that is the Lumagen getting a very clean signal vs the unprocessed Ziddo.
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
Mostly extra RFI/EMI shielding. I have a complex video chain with the Lumagen acting as the switcher:
(Zidoo,Panny 9000, etc)>Lumagen > Vertex > 75ft Ruipro > Gelfen HDMI splitter > Sim2 Duo Projectors (2).
I also split Audio and Video at the source where supported with the audio bypassing the Lumagen.
In addition to an ERF/EMI filtering power conditioning, there are varying degree's of additional shielding along the video path.

One very noticeable result is there is almost never an HDMI handshake issue, also no video noise. I'm very happy with the
Zidoo PQ, but I can't say how much of that is the Lumagen getting a very clean signal vs the unprocessed Ziddo.

Very nice indeed!


Good to see someone with a longer HDMI than mine!


(50ft - but it's copper, not fibre, vintage 2005/6 as thick as a finger and passes anything without batting an eyelid.... so far...)
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Looks like they're at it again...


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Very nice indeed!


Good to see someone with a longer HDMI than mine!


(50ft - but it's copper, not fibre, vintage 2005/6 as thick as a finger and passes anything without batting an eyelid.... so far...)
The Ruipro is a hybrid cable, fiber for the video signal, copper for the EDID handshake and ERC return. The copper is bi-directional which I'm told speeds up and improves the handshake.
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post #1371 of 1557 Old 05-30-2019, 10:38 AM
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The Ruipro is a hybrid cable, fiber for the video signal, copper for the EDID handshake and ERC return. The copper is bi-directional which I'm told speeds up and improves the handshake.

I have a 100ft one running from a Satellite box deep in the house to the amp in the cinema and then on via the 50ft one to the projector - that's only ever been used for 1080i - I must try 4K through it and see what happens - these are contract cables my company used to use in the early days of 2K broadcast and we bought them from China by the pallet load without giving their provenance a second look, but they beat the pants of any of the boutique cables you see these days (I'm not including RuiPro in that classification by the way!!).

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I have a 100ft one running from a Satellite box deep in the house to the amp in the cinema and then on via the 50ft one to the projector - that's only ever been used for 1080i - I must try 4K through it and see what happens - these are contract cables my company used to use in the early days of 2K broadcast and we bought them from China by the pallet load without giving their provenance a second look, but they beat the pants of any of the boutique cables you see these days (I'm not including RuiPro in that classification by the way!!).
I believe Ruipro is from China as well. If you have issues with passing UHD on your longer runs, the attached file on this post may help.
I'm not sure the last time Nigel updated it but its a good start. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/168-h...hdmi-2-0b.html
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post #1373 of 1557 Old 05-30-2019, 03:48 PM
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Which projector do you have out of interest? As you mention, I need to use a vertex to remove the HDR SEI.

It'll certainly be very be interesting to hear a comparison of SDR2020 from your Panny to the Zidoo when the firmware hits.

I tend to agree about the XXXXshow - it was a complete cluster XXXX at the start, but it's starting to come together now - get the settings right and cinematically, 4K HDR almost looks as good as 2K BluRay now

As for tone mapping - I've posted this before, so apologies if you've seen it, but it's the best explanation of why we need tone mapping I've seen:

https://www.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html


In my opinion, and again, cinematically speaking, HDR seems to be an awful lot of work to make clouds look better.
A Sony 675/550. Yeah, some of the JVCs need the hdfury I believe.

It seems illogical with HDR in general that you couldn't either have the TV tell the player via handshiaking what NITs it was capable of, or for a projector it would give max nits, and maybe you'd have to adjust depending on throw/gain etc. Or the display device itself say OK I can only do 1000 nits, and the picture is 4000nits. Should I clip, or adjust... Just silly. Instead all these idiots are just worried about more nits and stupid inbuilt apps in the TV. XXXX high nits. My projector is way bright enough on low lamp, 75% iris. My iris only has one setting and if the white is too bright I can't see the black detail. I'd rather see the black detail without having to block the bright spot. I don't want after images seared into my retinas.

The colorspace of 2020 and black level detail is in my books the real winner.

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post #1374 of 1557 Old 06-01-2019, 09:50 AM
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A Sony 675/550. Yeah, some of the JVCs need the hdfury I believe.

It seems illogical with HDR in general that you couldn't either have the TV tell the player via handshiaking what NITs it was capable of, or for a projector it would give max nits, and maybe you'd have to adjust depending on throw/gain etc. Or the display device itself say OK I can only do 1000 nits, and the picture is 4000nits. Should I clip, or adjust... Just silly. Instead all these idiots are just worried about more nits and stupid inbuilt apps in the TV. XXXX high nits. My projector is way bright enough on low lamp, 75% iris. My iris only has one setting and if the white is too bright I can't see the black detail. I'd rather see the black detail without having to block the bright spot. I don't want after images seared into my retinas.

The colorspace of 2020 and black level detail is in my books the real winner.

I kind of agree, possibly with less vehemence


All a display needs to show an HDR10 presentation's luminance range to the best of it's ability is MaxCLL and MaxFALL. As long as that data is correct and the display implements gamma correctly, it should all work fine. Trouble is it's taken an awful long time for everyone to sing from the same hymn sheet, and some still don't.


I've seen some crazy MaxCLLs - how about a MaxDML of 4000nits and MaxCLL of 10000nits (Fifth Element)? How does that happen?? - at least later releases tend to make more sense.


Some displays use the DML as benchmarks which is complete nonsense and some use a combination of MaxCLL or MaxFALL & DML - again, bonkers!


Arguably the way forward is dynamic tone mapping, which if implemented well, takes all the unknowns out of the equation.


But I totally agree with you regarding this seeming obsession with brightness - that's not what HDR is about at all. It's dynamic range. The clue's kind of in the name...


Ok, maybe a bit of vehemence...
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
I kind of agree, possibly with less vehemence


All a display needs to show an HDR10 presentation's luminance range to the best of it's ability is MaxCLL and MaxFALL. As long as that data is correct and the display implements gamma correctly, it should all work fine. Trouble is it's taken an awful long time for everyone to sing from the same hymn sheet, and some still don't.


I've seen some crazy MaxCLLs - how about a MaxDML of 4000nits and MaxCLL of 10000nits (Fifth Element)? How does that happen?? - at least later releases tend to make more sense.


Some displays use the DML as benchmarks which is complete nonsense and some use a combination of MaxCLL or MaxFALL & DML - again, bonkers!


Arguably the way forward is dynamic tone mapping, which if implemented well, takes all the unknowns out of the equation.


But I totally agree with you regarding this seeming obsession with brightness - that's not what HDR is about at all. It's dynamic range. The clue's kind of in the name...


Ok, maybe a bit of vehemence...
Unfortunately, even the top on/off contrast HT projectors don't approach the on screen contrast required by HDR. The first post on this thread has a comparison graff that shows this from 0-50% (ANSI Test) ADL. By about 2% ADL the top HT projectors on screen contrast plummet by a factor of 10 from their on/off and rapidly approach their ANSI level. There are two exceptions but they are not in the mainstream of today's HT projectors. OLED is probably
the best readily available benchmark:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...scussions.html
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post #1376 of 1557 Old 06-01-2019, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
I
(Snip...)

But I totally agree with you regarding this seeming obsession with brightness - that's not what HDR is about at all. It's dynamic range. The clue's kind of in the name...


Ok, maybe a bit of vehemence...
Yes definitely.

The analogy I use for tv nits is imagine being in a dark room, and someone shines a torch in your eyes. There is great black level detail in it, but you can't damn we'll see it unless you stick your hand up and block out the the torch.
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post #1377 of 1557 Old 06-02-2019, 03:00 AM
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Unfortunately, even the top on/off contrast HT projectors don't approach the on screen contrast required by HDR. The first post on this thread has a comparison graff that shows this from 0-50% (ANSI Test) ADL. By about 2% ADL the top HT projectors on screen contrast plummet by a factor of 10 from their on/off and rapidly approach their ANSI level. There are two exceptions but they are not in the mainstream of today's HT projectors. OLED is probably
the best readily available benchmark:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...scussions.html

A decent OLED is certainly the closest you'll get to the spec of a good grading monitor, but still a fair way off from say a Dolby Pulsar for example.


If done correctly the SDR grade should be perceptibly the same APL as the HDR grade - both should still display reference white at 100nits, it's just HDR can expand the specular highlights to a (very) theoretical 10,000nits, hence the need for a rolled off PQ curve to account for monitors not being able to meet this.


Most decent projectors will manage 100nits without blinking, it's just the PQ curve needs to either roll off quicker or sooner depending on how much headroom there is above 100nits (not much usually) but I'd argue that decent contrast is not a specific requirement of HDR per see, it is a requirement for a good image regardless of source, and particularly ANSI contrast.


If you can get your setup to look (and sound) as good or better than the local flea pit then you've cracked it, and I bet with a Sim2 Duo setup, you've more than cracked it! (I used to work with Sim2 years ago, back when they were Seleco) but that's what I always aim for - replicating, albeit a lot smaller, that projected film experience.


Next step is dynamic tone mapping and a new PJ, but I'm waiting to see what madshi comes up with before jumping into that arena.
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Yes definitely.

The analogy I use for tv nits is imagine being in a dark room, and someone shines a torch in your eyes. There is great black level detail in it, but you can't damn we'll see it unless you stick your hand up and block out the the torch.

Or turn down the torch brightness conducive to the environment

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Is Zidoo Z9S able to play multichannel SACD and DSD music?
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post #1380 of 1557 Old 06-02-2019, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
A decent OLED is certainly the closest you'll get to the spec of a good grading monitor, but still a fair way off from say a Dolby Pulsar for example.


If done correctly the SDR grade should be perceptibly the same APL as the HDR grade - both should still display reference white at 100nits, it's just HDR can expand the specular highlights to a (very) theoretical 10,000nits, hence the need for a rolled off PQ curve to account for monitors not being able to meet this.


Most decent projectors will manage 100nits without blinking, it's just the PQ curve needs to either roll off quicker or sooner depending on how much headroom there is above 100nits (not much usually) but I'd argue that decent contrast is not a specific requirement of HDR per see, it is a requirement for a good image regardless of source, and particularly ANSI contrast.


If you can get your setup to look (and sound) as good or better than the local flea pit then you've cracked it, and I bet with a Sim2 Duo setup, you've more than cracked it! (I used to work with Sim2 years ago, back when they were Seleco) but that's what I always aim for - replicating, albeit a lot smaller, that projected film experience.


Next step is dynamic tone mapping and a new PJ, but I'm waiting to see what madshi comes up with before jumping into that arena.
I would definitely agree that SDR content significantly benefits from high on screen contrast (as does HDR). I also have observed that both SDR and HDR content are significantly limited by by today’s HT projectors when compared to OLED (or the projectors with high on screen contrast). The first area that stands out is depth of picture, OLED can look 3D from the screen back, while the projectors picture will appear 2D and flat in comparison. This is true in both SDR and HDR although good HDR content can have an edge here. A more noticeable area is low ADL scenes with very bright highlights. A good example is the Life of Pi night water scene. It’s crushed on the projector compared to the OLED, and the HDR version is noticeably more pronounced than the SDR version. There is a long discussion about some of these areas on the other tread.

I think a lot of people are interested to see what the ENVY brings. I’m using DTM on the Lumagen, but may be an early test sight for the ENVY (nothing set yet, we’ll see what happens).
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