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-   -   New Zidoo Z9S and Z10 (RTD1296 SoC) (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-networking-media-servers-content-streaming/3000774-new-zidoo-z9s-z10-rtd1296-soc.html)

vadergr 09-04-2018 05:36 AM

New Zidoo Z9S and Z10 (RTD1296 SoC)
 
Zidoo is about to release its more affordable (than Zidoo X20) media players shortly. Zidoo Z9S & Z10
Will arrive with Android 7!

vadergr 09-13-2018 09:20 AM

Some first photos and official specs!
Zidoo Z10 looks sexy :p

SilverBlade 09-13-2018 10:23 AM

Ugh, the Z10 has everything in the wrong place.
HDD rack is on the side - which means when you want to change the drive, you have to turn it around or move stuff around, risking unplugging something at the back.
And the USB ports are on the front....they should be at the back.

Briguy65 09-13-2018 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverBlade (Post 56803602)
Ugh, the Z10 has everything in the wrong place.
HDD rack is on the side - which means when you want to change the drive, you have to turn it around or move stuff around, risking unplugging something at the back.
And the USB ports are on the front....they should be at the back.

You have a point there with the USB ports. The specs say that there are two USB 3.0 ports as well as the two USB 2.0 ports on the front. I assume they are on the side opposite the hard drive opening. That's isn't too bad. I can also see why you don't like the hard drive access from the side, although since it has a small footprint there should be room. That said, I got the EGREAT A10 because of it's form factor over the zidoo. I liked the shorter wider stance, so you can stack things easier, since I have an audio cabinet, I like rectangles instead of squares in there. Still, I bet these new players will be really good with the new android and upgraded SoC.

indieke2 10-05-2018 11:03 PM

Not see any news, it was said to be laughed, first week of October, but seems to have been delayed.

vadergr 10-11-2018 02:16 AM

Review of the Zidoo Z9S

Better remote, better WiFi performance and endless connectivity options.

djnice77 10-11-2018 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadergr (Post 56937298)
Review of the Zidoo Z9S

Better remote, better WiFi performance and endless connectivity options.

Please test the picture quality with Spears & Munsil HD tests like Sledgehamma.

vadergr 10-11-2018 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djnice77 (Post 56937846)
Please test the picture quality with Spears & Munsil HD tests like Sledgehamma.

I can only promise to try. Free time is a problem for me right now :)
The banding issue should be visible in auto mode just like like in the Zidoo X20.
Other than that, i don't expect to find any nasty surprises.

djnice77 10-11-2018 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadergr (Post 56937922)
I can only promise to try. Free time is a problem for me right now :)
The banding issue should be visible in auto mode just like like in the Zidoo X20.
Other than that, i don't expect to find any nasty surprises.

Zidoo says on advertisement:
“New Realtek RTD1296DD chipset designed specifically for media playback. 30% more performance than RTD1295. New image processing and optimisation engine giving PQ equivalent to the best UHD BD players.”

This is true?

vadergr 10-11-2018 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djnice77 (Post 56937946)
Zidoo says on advertisement:
“New Realtek RTD1296DD chipset designed specifically for media playback. 30% more performance than RTD1295. New image processing and optimisation engine giving PQ equivalent to the best UHD BD players.”

This is true?

You do get a clean monitor out image if that's what you are asking (4K banding issue aside for once more, it needs manual input to be corrected).
There appears to be no extra video processing, at least visible or adjustable by the user/owner, so comparisons with HTPCs using MADVR filters or high end UHD players with integrated video processing would be unfair.
I did notice better HDR-SDR conversion though (hope it was not placebo effect :p ) which may mean that part of the "image processing and optimisation engine" statement is probably valid.

The raw computing performance of the SoC is similar to the one of the existing models.

jowicrt 10-11-2018 04:31 AM

I hope they work better then they look. Ugly cheap looking silver boxes... why not also in black?

vadergr 10-11-2018 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jowicrt (Post 56938262)
I hope they work better then they look. Ugly cheap looking silver boxes... why not also in black?


Their previous one was grey, looked better.
Build quality is really solid though. Exactly the same as Dune HD Pro 4K and Zidoo X9S.

b curry 10-11-2018 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadergr (Post 56937298)
Review of the Zidoo Z9S

Better remote, better WiFi performance and endless connectivity options.


However, looks like they did away with the HDMI input recording feature. Maybe they will support that feature in a future firmware update?

Johnson-from-Arizona 10-11-2018 08:36 AM

These posts that popup periodically for these devices when there are already threads about them sure make these seem like company sponsored encouraged SALES ads.....

vadergr 10-11-2018 11:06 AM

Was there another thread for the new players?
Sorry if I missed it...

Briguy65 10-11-2018 11:26 AM

As far as I can tell this is the only thread talking about this particular model of the Zidoo player. Not sure what Johnson from Arizona is looking at.

b curry 10-11-2018 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnson-from-Arizona (Post 56939250)
These posts that popup periodically for these devices when there are already threads about them sure make these seem like company sponsored encouraged SALES ads.....


AFAIK this is the only thread talking about the new Z series or it's the only one I've seen.

Perhaps you could point to the additional threads, I would be interested to read them.

A search of the Networking, Media Servers & Content Streaming Forum using the key word Zidoo only brings up discrete threads for the X9S, a thread for the X20/X20 Pro, and this thread for a first page of 25 results and the Zidoo X10 in the second page of the next 25 results for me.

Litlgi74 10-11-2018 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnson-from-Arizona (Post 56939250)
These posts that popup periodically for these devices when there are already threads about them sure make these seem like company sponsored encouraged SALES ads.....

Maybe a little more research on your part would prevent a perfectly good thread from being deleted...

madhuski 10-12-2018 05:42 AM

I pulled the trigger on a Z10. First forway into ripping blunrays after using kaleidescape for a while...

theaxledentaldj 10-18-2018 05:37 PM

Would any of the new owners of the Z9S or Z10 test this short animated 3D Blu-ray video to make sure it runs in 23.976 fps? And if anyone has a Mac can you test to see if this new media player can work with NFS shares via NFS Manager s/w? TIA.

Download test 3D: https://mega.nz/#!4V4X2YTJ!ERq6M4WzF...HFb1qWtvXP_d5c

indieke2 10-20-2018 09:32 AM

Ok I got it. First impressions are not too bad. I not see any problem with frame skipping at first sight, but then that is not always obvious.

PQ, is in pair, with other zidoo, Dune, or Zappiti scrapper is fast, but like most inaccurate, some not found, some wrong;

The music player put out correctly higher frequency files, so that is good. But why did they not made a better player? Kind of Jriver like? I not found the app for my phone, shame too. Now my player had the audio-player 2, not 3.

UHD files are better then on any player (not seen the Oppo) You have different settings, and you can adjust brightness and contrast separately, that is great so it not affect normal HD.

is not an revolution, an evolution. There will probably soon bugs be found, but honestly, this is not a bad player. I find the Dune HD HDR 4 K with realtek 195, maybe a bit sharper, but depth, immersion is really good. Software of this player is better and more easy to use then Dune.

b curry 10-20-2018 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indieke2 (Post 56989316)
... Software of this player is better and more easy to use then Dune.

Shhhh... Don't let the Dune guys hear you. :)

The Zidoo X9S is also easier to use and has substantially more developed firmware than the Dune Pro 4K as well.

jasjw 10-20-2018 02:33 PM

Can the zidoo play forced subs?

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

Brajesh 10-20-2018 02:47 PM

Have any Realtek-based players supported forced subs? Don't think so... so, if Z9S/Z10 did, they'd be the first. Do Dune or Zappiti do?

b curry 10-20-2018 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasjw (Post 56990348)
Can the zidoo play forced subs?

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

Yes, if it's an ISO file.

No, if it's an MKV file.

Same as other Realtec/Android based media players.

Sledgehamma 10-21-2018 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brajesh (Post 56990398)
Have any Realtek-based players supported forced subs? Don't think so... so, if Z9S/Z10 did, they'd be the first. Do Dune or Zappiti do?

No. Dine wants to supposedly change the RTD subtitle library with their own in order to make it possible. We will see whether this is a feasible solution or not.

Sledgehamma 10-21-2018 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b curry (Post 56990682)
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasjw (Post 56990348)
Can the zidoo play forced subs?

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

Yes, if it's an ISO file.

No, if it's an MKV file.

Same as other Realtec/Android based media players.

ISO only with full menu playback.

xtrips 10-22-2018 12:57 PM

Kodi and Youtube and Universal remote
 
Hello,

I just got my Z9S and installed Google apps, Youtube and Kodi.

- Kodi: is it possible to make Kodi use the internal player of the Z9S in order to play 4K + HDR + Atmos ?
- Youtube: i thought that having Youtube running on Android 7.x would allow it to play 4K + HDR videos but apparently not. Am I missing something?
- U Remote: The Z9S is still unknown under Logitech Harmony remotes. Any idea?

Thanks

CucNZ 10-27-2018 12:16 AM

Like most Android 4k mediaplayers,you can install Apptoid(i believe...was months since i did it ) and then side load the version of Youtube which allows full 4k Youtube

Works well on my X9S,and ive seen others with the new Z9S say it works for them too

tinhvo 10-30-2018 10:55 AM

Some silly questions for Z10 box.
How big of the HDD (capacity) it allowed?

I have a lot of ripped MKV at home, I am debating whether to have put them all on the HDD then insert into the Z10 and watch from there or put them all on the external HDD and connect it to the router, I think that way, getting the Z9S is enough (hope the Z9S does support SMB or DLNA). What's your thought?

If I have the HDD in the Z10, if I want to add more ripped MKV to it, how do I do it? Can it be accessed for the network?

antrantr 11-07-2018 12:43 AM

srt files
 
Does Z10 support srt files as subtitles when playing mkv files ?

from description

Powerful subtitle function, support any change of fonts, a variety of color effect optional, support online download subtitles;Support both SUP and ASS effects captions.

vadergr 11-07-2018 11:01 AM

The review was updated with a YouTube video


markswift2003 11-07-2018 11:08 AM

Has anyone had a chance to strap a Vertex onto one yet to see what the frame-rate is?

vadergr 11-07-2018 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57074464)
Has anyone had a chance to strap a Vertex onto one yet to see what the frame-rate is?

I will do soon (I hope) ...

For UHD, BD,MKV and 3D playback.

pkonst2509 11-07-2018 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinhvo (Post 57036578)
Some silly questions for Z10 box.
How big of the HDD (capacity) it allowed?

I have a lot of ripped MKV at home, I am debating whether to have put them all on the HDD then insert into the Z10 and watch from there or put them all on the external HDD and connect it to the router, I think that way, getting the Z9S is enough (hope the Z9S does support SMB or DLNA). What's your thought?

If I have the HDD in the Z10, if I want to add more ripped MKV to it, how do I do it? Can it be accessed for the network?

I am using on my Z10 an internal 12TB Seagate Ironwolf and a 10TB Seagate Ironwolf attached to the SATA input. Works without any problem.
If I want to add a new file I am copying it from a USB memory stick to the hard drives.

markswift2003 11-07-2018 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadergr (Post 57074808)
I will do soon (I hope) ...

For UHD, BD,MKV and 3D playback.


That'd be interesting to see - I found the X9S playing out at 23.978fps which causes a frame repeat every 8.33 minutes, the impact of which is dependent on what's on screen at the time - a fairly static shot and the repeat goes by unnoticed, but on a panning shot, very noticeable.


Interestingly, my X9S shows 23.978 at both 4K 12-bit 422 and 444 whereas my Dune Pro shows 23.981 at 4K 12-bit 444 and exhibits a frame repeat every 3.33 mins but at 422 it plays out at 23.973 which obviously cannot repeat (it's less than 23.976) but also doesn't seem to miss a frame either.

vadergr 11-08-2018 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57076930)
That'd be interesting to see - I found the X9S playing out at 23.978fps which causes a frame repeat every 8.33 minutes, the impact of which is dependent on what's on screen at the time - a fairly static shot and the repeat goes by unnoticed, but on a panning shot, very noticeable.


Interestingly, my X9S shows 23.978 at both 4K 12-bit 422 and 444 whereas my Dune Pro shows 23.981 at 4K 12-bit 444 and exhibits a frame repeat every 3.33 mins but at 422 it plays out at 23.973 which obviously cannot repeat (it's less than 23.976) but also doesn't seem to miss a frame either.

You got these results from an HDFury device as well?
My unit is still sealed so i am in search of free time :p

What i wanted to know is if the theoretical 23.976 output can be correctly "measured" bt Vertex. Maybe it reads 23.981 or somenthing similar like in your case.
It is a tricky thing to do if the repeated frame occurs in a static scene. I guess the closer to 23.976, the better.

I will update in this thread.

markswift2003 11-08-2018 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadergr (Post 57077742)
You got these results from an HDFury device as well?
My unit is still sealed so i am in search of free time :p

What i wanted to know is if the theoretical 23.976 output can be correctly "measured" bt Vertex. Maybe it reads 23.981 or somenthing similar like in your case.
It is a tricky thing to do if the repeated frame occurs in a static scene. I guess the closer to 23.976, the better.

I will update in this thread.


Yes indeed I'm using a Vertex and as far as I know it measures the frame rate very accurately - I bought it to control projector modes in a Crestron system on an Nvidia shield but I thought it'd be interesting to see how the multitude of media players I've been collecting over the last few months behaved.


With the 1295 players it seems that if the frame rate is greater than 23.976 then you get repeated frames every few minutes according to the formula:


y = 1/60(x-23.976)


Where y = interval (mins) & x = true frame rate (fps)


Strangely, if the frame rate is less than 23.976, you don't seem to get the expected dropped frames - or at least I've not noticed any. (this is the case with the Dune at 4K422 but not 444, and typically 422 exhibits chroma banding!)


So as I said, it'd be interesting to see results from a 1296 player like the Z9S although to be honest, I don't expect any difference because the architecture is the same as the 1295 with only the addition of more IO.

vadergr 11-08-2018 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57077840)
Yes indeed I'm using a Vertex and as far as I know it measures the frame rate very accurately - I bought it to control projector modes in a Crestron system on an Nvidia shield but I thought it'd be interesting to see how the multitude of media players I've been collecting over the last few months behaved.


With the 1295 players it seems that if the frame rate is greater than 23.976 then you get repeated frames every few minutes according to the formula:


y = 1/60(x-23.976)


Where y = interval (mins) & x = true frame rate (fps)


Strangely, if the frame rate is less than 23.976, you don't seem to get the expected dropped frames - or at least I've not noticed any.


So as I said, it'd be interesting to see results from a 1296 player like the Z9S although to be honest, I don't expect any difference because the architecture is the same as the 1295 with only the addition of more IO.

I will try to revert as soon as possible ;)

tinhvo 11-08-2018 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkonst2509 (Post 57075724)
I am using on my Z10 an internal 12TB Seagate Ironwolf and a 10TB Seagate Ironwolf attached to the SATA input. Works without any problem.
If I want to add a new file I am copying it from a USB memory stick to the hard drives.

Oh, wow, 12TB internal + 10TB external. You must have thousands of 4k/1080p movies. I have 3TB and I thought it's a lot. LOL
About the copying files, it's kind of inconvenience, isn't it. It would be great if we can move files directly from the PC to the Z10 HDD.
Anyway, about the performance, how does it compare to the Nvidia Shield TV?

pkonst2509 11-08-2018 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinhvo (Post 57078070)
Oh, wow, 12TB internal + 10TB external. You must have thousands of 4k/1080p movies. I have 3TB and I thought it's a lot. LOL
About the copying files, it's kind of inconvenience, isn't it. It would be great if we can move files directly from the PC to the Z10 HDD.
Anyway, about the performance, how does it compare to the Nvidia Shield TV?

The other possibility to copy files is to take the hard drive, put it into a USB 3 hub (Sabrent USB 3.1 to SATA External Hard Drive Docking Station for 2.5 or 3.5in HDD) and connect it to your PC.
But I agree with you, the Himedia Q10 Pro can be directly connected to a PC, and it would be nice to have that function on the Z10.
When it comes to performance, I don't have the Shield, but I have the Q10 Pro and the Egreat A10 and it certainly beats both of those.

Quadzilla 11-08-2018 12:30 PM

Can is Z9 play .m3u Music playlist files? If not, what else can they use?
 
Hi all,
I bought my Z9 after my popcorn hour C-200 died a few months ago. I'm really enjoying the Z9 and having access to my many media files, especially music! I have quite a few .m3u playlist files but the Z9 doesn't open them, should it? I thought I read somewhere where the Z9 can play that type of playlist file. If not, how else can I create playlists in the Z9? Also, is there a downloadable user manual for it? Thanks!

tinhvo 11-09-2018 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadergr (Post 57074442)
The review was updated with a YouTube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6noEjrAM7lQ

Just watch the clip half way through and has a few curious questions
HDMI video, I only see it lists up to 1080p 60Hz, NO 4K rate?
HDMI audio, I don't see "bitstream" or "passthrough" option, is it not capable?
Youtube app only supports up to 1080p, no 4k?

vadergr 11-09-2018 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinhvo (Post 57083876)
Just watch the clip half way through and has a few curious questions
HDMI video, I only see it lists up to 1080p 60Hz, NO 4K rate?
HDMI audio, I don't see "bitstream" or "passthrough" option, is it not capable?
Youtube app only supports up to 1080p, no 4k?

The resolution limitation has to do with the capturing device. It properly goes all the way up to [email protected]
The RAW option is the one. All audio codecs are supported, including ATMOS and DTS X.
A You-Tube app is not pre-installed (or Google Play). It was sideloaded to check the performance. Perhaps with the new FW that includes Play Store, it can go up to 4K (not sure though)

tinhvo 11-09-2018 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadergr (Post 57084814)
The resolution limitation has to do with the capturing device. It properly goes all the way up to [email protected]
The RAW option is the one. All audio codecs are supported, including ATMOS and DTS X.
A You-Tube app is not pre-installed (or Google Play). It was sideloaded to check the performance. Perhaps with the new FW that includes Play Store, it can go up to 4K (not sure though)

Oh, OK,
Got it.
Thanks m8

Tsunamijhoe 11-10-2018 06:03 PM

I was looking at the dune 4k pro but the lack of proper firmware releases and bluray menu support i am now looking at this zidoo z9,and from what i read it looks good,however can anyone test if the bluray menu function actually works in this device? I am only going to use it for 1080p full blurays BDMV format and 3D if it supports MVC in MKV format?

Thank you

markswift2003 11-16-2018 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadergr (Post 57077854)
I will try to revert as soon as possible ;)


I couldn't help myself - I ordered a Z9S to test..


With 4K 23.976fps 10-bit HDR video I found:


12-bit 422 and 10-bit 444 both play out at 23.974fps which is the closest of any player I've seen and the same as the HiMedia Q10 Pro. Nvidia Shield, Oppo 203 and Panasonic 820 are next best at 23.973fps.


I didn't bother testing 8-bit as you'd never use that anyway.


12-bit 422 exhibits chroma banding the same as all the 1295 players as I would expect and 10-bit 444 does not, again, as expected.


An odd bug at the moment seems to be that you can't set 12-bit 444 - even if chosen in setup, it still plays out at 10-bit 444.

movd 11-16-2018 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57116806)
I couldn't help myself - I ordered a Z9S to test..


With 4K 23.976fps 10-bit HDR video I found:


12-bit 422 and 10-bit 444 both play out at 23.974fps which is the closest of any player I've seen and the same as the HiMedia Q10 Pro. Nvidia Shield, Oppo 203 and Panasonic 820 are next best at 23.973fps.


I didn't bother testing 8-bit as you'd never use that anyway.


12-bit 422 exhibits chroma banding the same as all the 1295 players as I would expect and 10-bit 444 does not, again, as expected.


An odd bug at the moment seems to be that you can't set 12-bit 444 - even if chosen in setup, it still plays out at 10-bit 444.

Wow, so it sounds like the framerate/frame skip issue is most likely hardware, as seemingly all Realtek 1295 devices exhibit the same problem. However, it is fixed in the 1296 SOC. Is that your conclusion?

If the 1296 is using a new SDK and there will be a new SDK for the 1295, there is a chance there could be a fix the issue. Otherwise, there is no hope.

Brajesh 11-16-2018 08:17 AM

Think 23.974fps is the same as with previous-gen X9S. This does give you about 4 microstutters in a 2-hour movie. With 3D ISO/MVC, Zidoo seems to do perfect 23.976. With 1080p & 4K 2D, not quite.

The new RTD1296 doesn't appear to add any improvements for video performance, rather just connectivity. I also have a Zidoo X20 with the same video issues.

markswift2003 11-16-2018 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by movd (Post 57116960)
Wow, so it sounds like the framerate/frame skip issue is most likely hardware, as seemingly all Realtek 1295 devices exhibit the same problem. However, it is fixed in the 1296 SOC. Is that your conclusion?

If the 1296 is using a new SDK and there will be a new SDK for the 1295, there is a chance there could be a fix the issue. Otherwise, there is no hope.


I've always thought it's a hardware issue but I've never been able to take any empirical measurements until I recently bought an HDFury Vertex, and assuming it's accurate (and I believe it to be so), it's a very useful tool.


All the 1295 players I have (Zappiti, Dune and Zidoo) exhibit frame repeats causing micro-stutter but not all under the same circumstances. Micro stutters only seem to show when the frame rate is just over 23.976 and not just under - I may be wrong, but I haven't seen them when the fps are say 23.973 or 23.974 but they are definitely there when it's 23.981 for example.


So the X9S on current firmware has a framerate of 23.978 and stutters in both 12-bit 422 and 444.


The Dune has a framerate of 23.981 at 12-bit 444 and stutters, but set to 12-bit 422 and it's 23.973, and I don't see stutter (same fps as Shield, Oppo and Panasonic players).


The problem with 12-bit 422 on both 1295 and 1296 hardware is they show chroma banding which may mean there's an 8-bit bottleneck in the conversion path or the conversion from 4:2:0 is simply done badly. Either way, it's there and I don't think it's fixable in firmware and makes 422 unusable.


So the Z9S seems to be more stable at 23.974 in 12-bit 422 and 10-bit 444 and I'm hoping stutter free - time will tell.


But it looks promising for both 1295 and 1296 because they are essentially the same as far as CPU and GPU go - the only difference being the IO and memory improvements in the 1296 - but it probably depends on Realtek for a fix and they may not do that for what is essentially 3 year old tech in the 1295.


So I'm going to hold of on an opinion as far as the Z9S goes until I've watched a few films and maybe seen a couple of firmware iterations, but it looks promising.

3DVideoBuff 11-17-2018 07:48 AM

@markswift2003 good info.

I just want to add from my previous research on this topic is that frame rate display from HDFury Vertex or any other device is most likely calculated back from pixel clock rate and screen resolution. It will be different for HD, 3D and 4K but will point back to 23.976fps.

More info here and follow second link.

markswift2003 11-17-2018 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3DVideoBuff (Post 57121242)
@markswift2003 good info.

I just want to add from my previous research on this topic is that frame rate display from HDFury Vertex or any other device is most likely calculated back from pixel clock rate and screen resolution. It will be different for HD, 3D and 4K but will point back to 23.976fps.

More info here and follow second link.


Interesting stuff - I might email HDFury and see how the vertex works it out..

markswift2003 11-17-2018 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by movd (Post 57116960)
Wow, so it sounds like the framerate/frame skip issue is most likely hardware, as seemingly all Realtek 1295 devices exhibit the same problem. However, it is fixed in the 1296 SOC. Is that your conclusion?

If the 1296 is using a new SDK and there will be a new SDK for the 1295, there is a chance there could be a fix the issue. Otherwise, there is no hope.


So, first results are in.


I've watched a couple of 4K movies start to finish on the Z9S now. These are full fat remuxes and I watched at 444 10-bit.


Frame rate as previously mentioned does seem to hold at 23.974fps for all modes and I can categorically say that for the two movies so far, no microstutters at all. Not a one.


Now for two movies that might not seem too impressive but it is the very first time EVER I've been able to watch a movie on a Realtek 129* device without either chroma banding and/or stutter.


So far, I'm impressed with this little box.

gadgtfreek 11-18-2018 01:52 PM

Just ordered a Zidoo Z9S Media Player, I already have a Dune Pro 4K, but need a second device so i figured Id try one of these.

3DVideoBuff 11-19-2018 02:40 PM

@markswift2003 following your finding I decided to test it on my system. I have Zidoo X9S with latest firmware 2.1.14.

My standard settings are:
Deep Color Mode 10bit
Color Space Auto
HDMI Range 16-235

Looking at info screen from Zidoo player I always see 10 Bits and YUV444 for regular HD 1080p 8bit source and 10bit 4K HDR.
Changing Color Space to YCbCr 422 or 420 is not making any difference in the display output info from Zidoo player - always YUV444.

Is changing Color Space in Quick Settings from Auto to YCbCr 444, 422 or 420 effect display output frequency in any way?

Color Space in setup is marked in YCbCr but Player Info screen shows YUV. Are those two the same or not related in Zidoo terminology?

How did you change 444 to 422 and 420? Where do you see the change?

Bit depth is working fine. Setting 10 bit in setup forces 10 bit output across all sources HD and 4K HDR. Changes are reflected to 8 or 12 bit in Zidoo player info screen

It looks like Auto is just referred to maximum capability of the TV rather than automatically following the source.
Since I had it set for 10 bit and Color Space Auto it produces YUV444 and according to your research 23.974fps.

This is my standard set up and I do see microstutters :(


Can you check what is the frame rate / frequency on standard HD with output set for 10bit and 444?

markswift2003 11-20-2018 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3DVideoBuff (Post 57132562)
@markswift2003 following your finding I decided to test it on my system. I have Zidoo X9S with latest firmware 2.1.14.

My standard settings are:
Deep Color Mode 10bit
Color Space Auto
HDMI Range 16-235

Looking at info screen from Zidoo player I always see 10 Bits and YUV444 for regular HD 1080p 8bit source and 10bit 4K HDR.
Changing Color Space to YCbCr 422 or 420 is not making any difference in the display output info from Zidoo player - always YUV444.

Is changing Color Space in Quick Settings from Auto to YCbCr 444, 422 or 420 effect display output frequency in any way?

Color Space in setup is marked in YCbCr but Player Info screen shows YUV. Are those two the same or not related in Zidoo terminology?

How did you change 444 to 422 and 420? Where do you see the change?

Bit depth is working fine. Setting 10 bit in setup forces 10 bit output across all sources HD and 4K HDR. Changes are reflected to 8 or 12 bit in Zidoo player info screen

It looks like Auto is just referred to maximum capability of the TV rather than automatically following the source.
Since I had it set for 10 bit and Color Space Auto it produces YUV444 and according to your research 23.974fps.

This is my standard set up and I do see microstutters :(


Can you check what is the frame rate / frequency on standard HD with output set for 10bit and 444?

The Zidoo seems to respect the HDMI specs correctly so you have to remember you can't output an illegal mode.

So you have explicitly set your bit depth to 10-bits and therefore 4:2:0 is not allowed at 23.976fps and 4:2:2 is only allowed at 12-bits.

Changing colour space has a big impact on transmission frequency and therefore bandwidth which becomes very important as resolution and HDMI cable lengths increase - for example, 4K 12-bit 422 transmits at 297MHz and 4K 12-bit 444 at 445MHz.

I just reread your question though and I suspect you are referring to frame rate, in which case, no, colour space has no bearing on frame rate.

YCbCr and YUV are synonymous.

Not sure what you mean by "where do you see the change"?

My result of 23.974fps is for the Z9S not the X9S.

So for standard HD, the X9S outputs 23.978fps in all modes (8-bit 444, 12-bit 422, 10-bit 444 and 12-bit 444) the same as for 4K.

I haven't tested with a Judder Pattern, but I would expect a frame repeat every 8.3 minutes at that frame rate.

This is on firmware 2.0.34, I wasn't aware of 2.1.14 - I'll load that and see if it makes a difference...

Mark




EDIT - Nope, updated to 2.1.14 and it's exactly the same, 23.978fps across the board.

Brajesh 11-20-2018 05:34 AM

Finding it odd how 23.974 (off by .002 from proper 23.976) on Z9S doesn't produce microstutters, but 23.978 (also off by .002) on X9S does.

movd 11-20-2018 06:24 AM

I've wondered if what the Vertex reports is slightly off. It seems no device has come in as exactly at 23.976.

If the Vertex is off by .002, and when it reports 23.974 it actually is 23.976, that can make sense. If the X9S reports 23.978, that would mean a dropped frame every 8.3 minutes. Users have reported seeing a dropped frame every 4-5 minutes. If the actual rate was 23.98 (23.978 + .002), it would have a dropped frame every 4.17 minutes, which coincides with what people are seeing.

Just a thought, I don't have a Vertex.

Sledgehamma 11-20-2018 06:31 AM

@Brajesh : Yeah, that really is weird.
In case sending too few frames (Z9S), a frame should be skipped. In case sending too much frames (X9S), a frame should be doubled. Maybe we are just not as perceptible to skipped frames as we are to doubled ones.

@movd :
Interesting theory. However, I think it’s not very likely. This would indicate a systematic bias in one specific direction which should be super easy to identify by @HDfury . Given they specialize in this kind of thing, I suspect that it really does report the accurate framerate.

markswift2003 11-20-2018 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brajesh (Post 57135040)
Finding it odd how 23.974 (off by .002 from proper 23.976) on Z9S doesn't produce microstutters, but 23.978 (also off by .002) on X9S does.


So do I - when I first got the Vertex and found some of the players run under 23.976 and some over, I was expecting dropped frames from those under but so far I haven't seen it.


The players that reliably play just under 23.976 (ie in 2K and 4K in all colour modes and bit depths) I've found are:


Egreat A5 at 23.974
HiMedia Q10 Pro at 23.974
Nvidia Shield at 23.973
Zidoo Z9S at 23.974


The Zappiti 4K and Dune Pro are the only two 1295 players that have exactly the same mixed frame rate results (which I find suspicious!) but there is no one setting that doesn't either exhibit banding or microstutter or both and the Zappiti has banding in all 4K modes, 10-bit and 12-bit 444 included, which I've not seen in any other player and find odd.


The worst as far as frame rate goes is the Zidoo X9S at 23.978 across the board.

markswift2003 11-20-2018 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sledgehamma (Post 57135320)
... Maybe we are just not as perceptible to doubled frames as we are to skipped ones.


It would be the other way around - higher frame rate produces doubled frames, but yes, I thought that maybe we were less aware of skipped frames. However I've seen dropped frames in Kodi and they are just as perceptible as doubled frames.


My current theory is that in the case of higher frame-rate the audio would need to be truncated unless frames are added, so maybe the opposite happens with a slower frame rate and the audio is padded, which we don't notice.

Brajesh 11-20-2018 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57135734)
The worst as far as frame rate goes is the Zidoo X9S at 23.978 across the board.

Believe 3D ISO's and MVC MKV's are not exhibiting microstutters. I haven't noticed them, and @3DBuff confirmed here.

markswift2003 11-20-2018 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brajesh (Post 57136516)
Believe 3D ISO's and MVC MKV's are not exhibiting microstutters. I haven't noticed them, and @3DBuff confirmed here.


I also think that some people are more sensitive to them than others and it also depends what's going on on screen - if the scene is fairly static, you probably won't notice but if it's a pan, you definitely will which is why they are hard to tie down and why they seem more random than they actually are.


I also suspect some people have some sort of motion compensation going on in their displays which again muddies the water somewhat.


If you use a judder test video they're very easy to see - I created a 5 minute one with a DTS soundtrack because the one with the Masciola suite is only a minute, so no good for testing stutter caused by frame rate increases.


I've not seen a 3D one though - it'd be interesting but it'd give you a hell of a headache!!

Sledgehamma 11-20-2018 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57136358)
It would be the other way around - higher frame rate produces doubled frames, but yes, I thought that maybe we were less aware of skipped frames. However I've seen dropped frames in Kodi and they are just as perceptible as doubled frames.


My current theory is that in the case of higher frame-rate the audio would need to be truncated unless frames are added, so maybe the opposite happens with a slower frame rate and the audio is padded, which we don't notice.

You are right, I corrected my post. My bad.
Still weird, though.

markswift2003 11-20-2018 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sledgehamma (Post 57137340)
You are right, I corrected my post. My bad.
Still weird, though.


Very weird, but kind of anecdotally verified elsewhere - I've seen reports on other forums of the Panasonic 820 and Oppo 203 both outputting 23.973fps when tested with a Vertex and they are both apparently rock solid UHD bluray players - frame skips never enter the conversation, so hey, my theory may hold water ;)

b curry 11-20-2018 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57138116)
Very weird, but kind of anecdotally verified elsewhere - I've seen reports on other forums of the Panasonic 820 and Oppo 203 both outputting 23.973fps when tested with a Vertex and they are both apparently rock solid UHD bluray players - frame skips never enter the conversation, so hey, my theory may hold water ;)

So if one were to extrapolate, it would be really great if DuneHD, Zidoo, or some other company would build a media player with a MediaTek chipset. :)

markswift2003 11-21-2018 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b curry (Post 57138472)
So if one were to extrapolate, it would be really great if DuneHD, Zidoo, or some other company would build a media player with a MediaTek chipset. :)


Absolutely. I have no experience of the MediaTek SOC other than what I've read, but yes, Dune, Zappiti, Zidoo et al do seem to have backed a lame horse in the 1295. Hopefully the Z9S has picked up the pace somewhat.


My opinion is if Dune or Zidoo chose HiSilicon and applied their interfaces (the Dune in particular because it can be skinned so easily and effectively), we'd have a great player on our hands - the HiMedia box plays 4K at the same rock solid 23.974fps as the Z9S and does not exhibit chroma banding even at 8-bit so it must have an effective dithering algorithm.


But the interface is vanilla Android c**p and the only effective player is a Kodi wrapper which is inelegant in operation to say the least and might be great for the kids but it's too much of a pita for a serious installation imho.

Sledgehamma 11-21-2018 12:21 AM

No it wouldn’t at all. From my testing the Oppo’s MediaTek has subpar picture quality and afaik Panasonic uses their own SoC (even if they were to use MediaTek, they would use their own decoders on that chip). Stock MediaTek decoders are crap. Only if a company uses their proprietary decoders on a MediaTek SoC (like Sony), you are able to achieve great PQ. Since those Mediaplayer companies have neither, the know how or the money to built a decent decoder, I wouldn’t expect a step up in terms of PQ from Realtek.

markswift2003 11-21-2018 12:40 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Out of interest (and because this hobby seems to be taking over my life!!), here are frame rates I've found so far with the Vertex...


(where there's a dash, it means that mode isn't available on that player)


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1542792581

b curry 11-21-2018 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57139998)
Out of interest (and because this hobby seems to be taking over my life!!), here are frame rates I've found so far with the Vertex...


(where there's a dash, it means that mode isn't available on that player)


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1542792581

Great summary!



Could you maybe add a column with the firmware version as well?

I'm asking because anecdotally there has been some discussion on the Zidoo forum that 4K stuttering was not present in some of the earlier firmware. It might be interesting to check the X9S with with an earlier firmware. I don't have a Vertex or a way to do this or I would give it a go. And I expect your chart will become an internet baseline for comparisons.

The other interesting point is that it's no secret that Zidoo is the OEM/ODM for the Dune HD Pro 4K which is more or less the same hardware unit as the Zidoo X9S. From a firmware stand point, the two units separated by brand name but coming from the same mother offer very different frame rate's using the same SoC and what appears to be hardware. Also, the Zidoo X9S's overall feature set is substantially more advanced than the Dune HD Pro 4k's, so there seems to be substantial differences based on the capabilities of the code writers.

The $64,000.00 question is, is the frame rate timing problem a SoC or code writing problem? Or maybe a combination of the two?

The RTD1295 SoC has been around for over two years now. Displaying the correct frame rate would seem like a relatively easy thing to get right or at least a top priority item if one were building a media playback device.

RealteK has documented the RTD1296 as being the same SoC as the RTD1295 with additional I/O capabilities yet a different frame rate coming from Zidoo.

markswift2003 11-21-2018 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b curry (Post 57140606)
Great summary!



Could you maybe add a column with the firmware version as well?

I'm asking because anecdotally there has been some discussion on the Zidoo forum that 4K stuttering was not present in some of the earlier firmware. It might be interesting to check the X9S with with an earlier firmware. I don't have a Vertex or a way to do this or I would give it a go. And I expect your chart will become an internet baseline for comparisons.

The other interesting point is that it's no secret that Zidoo is the OEM/ODM for the Dune HD Pro 4K which is more or less the same hardware unit as the Zidoo X9S. From a firmware stand point, the two units separated by brand name but coming from the same mother offer very different frame rate's using the same SoC and what appears to be hardware. Also, the Zidoo X9S's overall feature set is substantially more advanced than the Dune HD Pro 4k's, so there seems to be substantial differences based on the capabilities of the code writers.

The $64,000.00 question is, is the frame rate timing problem a SoC or code writing problem? Or maybe a combination of the two?

The RTD1295 SoC has been around for over two years now. Displaying the correct frame rate would seem like a relatively easy thing to get right or at least a top priority item if one were building a media playback device.

RealteK has documented the RTD1296 as being the same SoC as the RTD1295 with additional I/O capabilities yet a different frame rate coming from Zidoo.


Good idea - They're all latest as far as I know, but I'll add the firmware version and made it a bit prettier..


I have tested the X9S on the previous firmware, and the frame rate was exactly the same, not sure about anything prior to that, but if there's a particular one you want me to try, I'll give it a go..


I'm not sure whether Zidoo are the original manufacturer or not - they all obviously come from the same stable, but I'm not convinced Zidoo is the actual manufacturer, I suspect they buy from an OEM like the rest, but I don't know for sure.


I must admit, I far prefer the Dune ecosystem to Zidoos - it allows very sophisticated skin manipulation, so you can really personalise the front end and get rid of the "My First Media Player" look that they all seem to have. It has a system whereby you can use external scrapers and that can be personalised in line with your skin design and you can completely hide Android altogether. It also has a very well developed IP protocol and being a Crestron guy, I really appreciate that.


But it's still hampered at the back end which is why I'm favouring the Z9S at the moment. I've said many times on the Dune forum that I believe that these issues are inherent in the silicon and it needs a new revision to sort it out. I fully expected the 1296 to have exactly the same issues, given, as you say, on paper it's just more IO and faster RAM, but I've been very pleasantly surprised for once.


Also, as a CI guy, the Z9S has an RS232 port for direct control which sounds pointless unless you're in the CI world, where it really is priceless.

markswift2003 11-21-2018 07:14 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Prettied up a bit and Firmware versions added...


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1542813229

gadgtfreek 11-21-2018 07:30 AM

Well my Z9S has been picked up in China, now the wait lol.

b curry 11-21-2018 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57140876)
Good idea - They're all latest as far as I know, but I'll add the firmware version and made it a bit prettier..

Thanks! Looks great!


Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57140876)
I have tested the X9S on the previous firmware, and the frame rate was exactly the same, not sure about anything prior to that, but if there's a particular one you want me to try, I'll give it a go..

I'll dig into the Zidoo forum posts and try to select one that's referenced the most as not having that particular problem.


Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57140876)
I'm not sure whether Zidoo are the original manufacturer or not - they all obviously come from the same stable, but I'm not convinced Zidoo is the actual manufacturer, I suspect they buy from an OEM like the rest, but I don't know for sure.

They seem to be, or I believe them to be.

If you look here you will find their applications for OEM supply and distributor inquiries as well as calling themselves out as a branded OEM STB, Digital Signage, manufacture.

https://www.zidoo.tv/Contact/oem.html

https://www.zidoo.tv/Contact/distributor.html

https://www.zidoo.tv/About/index.html

Then I believe there were several statements by member kadqs that referenced the 4K coming from Zidoo. There is also a review of the 4K by Media Player Reviews where they refer to them as siblings from the same factory. It's the way I have connected the dots but I could be wrong.

http://mediaplayers.gr/dune-hd-pro-4k/


Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57140876)
I must admit, I far prefer the Dune ecosystem to Zidoos - it allows very sophisticated skin manipulation, so you can really personalise the front end and get rid of the "My First Media Player" look that they all seem to have. It has a system whereby you can use external scrapers and that can be personalised in line with your skin design and you can completely hide Android altogether. It also has a very well developed IP protocol and being a Crestron guy, I really appreciate that.

Shure, me too. But I have to admit that I've come to enjoy the simplicity of using the X9S and it's Home Theater 2.0 app. On top of that, I've lost my access to the Zappiti Dune scraper and Zappiti refuses to or is not capable of restoring access for the Dune units.


Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57140876)
But it's still hampered at the back end which is why I'm favouring the Z9S at the moment. I've said many times on the Dune forum that I believe that these issues are inherent in the silicon and it needs a new revision to sort it out. I fully expected the 1296 to have exactly the same issues, given, as you say, on paper it's just more IO and faster RAM, but I've been very pleasantly surprised for once.

I tend to agree here. But more and more I'm beginning to wonder if it has it's roots in the code writing...



Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57140876)
Also, as a CI guy, the Z9S has an RS232 port for direct control which sounds pointless unless you're in the CI world, where it really is priceless.

For sure a plus if you need it.

markswift2003 11-21-2018 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b curry (Post 57141430)
...But I have to admit that I've come to enjoy the simplicity of using the X9S and it's Home Theater 2.0 app. On top of that, I've lost my access to the Zappiti scraper and Zappiti refuses or is not capable of restoring access for the Dune units.


A very good point well made - the HT2 app can be a bit bonkers at times, but yes, once it's all set up, it just works and there's something to be said for just switching a device on, just being presented with a video wall and hitting play!


I do seem to remember the X9S boots into the Android Launcher before HT2, even if you set HT2 as the startup app - so, another nice thing about the Z9S is if you set HT2 to start on boot, you don't see the launcher, it just boots straight to the wall.

3DVideoBuff 11-21-2018 05:14 PM

6 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57134672)
The Zidoo seems to respect the HDMI specs correctly so you have to remember you can't output an illegal mode.

So you have explicitly set your bit depth to 10-bits and therefore 4:2:0 is not allowed at 23.976fps and 4:2:2 is only allowed at 12-bits.

Changing colour space has a big impact on transmission frequency and therefore bandwidth which becomes very important as resolution and HDMI cable lengths increase - for example, 4K 12-bit 422 transmits at 297MHz and 4K 12-bit 444 at 445MHz.

I just reread your question though and I suspect you are referring to frame rate, in which case, no, colour space has no bearing on frame rate.

YCbCr and YUV are synonymous.

Not sure what you mean by "where do you see the change"?

My result of 23.974fps is for the Z9S not the X9S.

So for standard HD, the X9S outputs 23.978fps in all modes (8-bit 444, 12-bit 422, 10-bit 444 and 12-bit 444) the same as for 4K.

I haven't tested with a Judder Pattern, but I would expect a frame repeat every 8.3 minutes at that frame rate.

This is on firmware 2.0.34, I wasn't aware of 2.1.14 - I'll load that and see if it makes a difference...

Mark




EDIT - Nope, updated to 2.1.14 and it's exactly the same, 23.978fps across the board.

@markswift2003 thanks for detailed explanation.

I only have one Zidoo X9S and don't have time to play even with this one.

My question "where do you see the change?" was in reference to your setting like 12-bit 422?
How do you know it is displaying 12-bit 422? Do you get this info from Vertex or you just set it in Zidoo and assume it is 422?


The reason I was asking because I can't get this mode to display in Zidoo player decoder info.

Going to 12-bit allows me to set any combination of 444, 422 or 420 but the player info screen does not match the settings.


Quick Settings > Display > Advanced Settings
Bit, YCbCr ----------------Display Output Bit, YUV

12, 444 ------------------------------------ 12, 444

12, 422 ------------------------------------- 8, 422

12, 420 ------------------------------------ 12, 444

Please note 12-bit, 422 drops the display to 8 bits, 422.
Attached pictures are in that sequence.

Anyway you could check the 3D signal on Zidoo X9S with Vertex? It appears correct without any doubled frames. Just wonder since everything else on X9S is showing 23.978 and doubled frames. If 3D on X9S is below it would prove and confirm this frame rate microstutter theory.

zombie10k 11-21-2018 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57138116)
Very weird, but kind of anecdotally verified elsewhere - I've seen reports on other forums of the Panasonic 820 and Oppo 203 both outputting 23.973fps when tested with a Vertex and they are both apparently rock solid UHD bluray players - frame skips never enter the conversation, so hey, my theory may hold water ;)

Thanks for the deep dive! in my experience with the Oppo 203/205, Panasonic UB820 and Nvidia shield with UHD content and frame rates reported by vertex at 23.973 or 23.974 (depending on device)... I haven't see the skipped frame situation. definitely though with the Zidoo X9s and Dune 4K pro at the 23.978 and 23.981

It's good news to hear if the Z9S is behaving at 10 bit 444 / 23.974. I will pick one of these up based on your findings and give it a run, thanks again

markswift2003 11-22-2018 01:13 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3DVideoBuff (Post 57144212)
...My question "where do you see the change?" was in reference to your setting like 12-bit 422?
How do you know it is displaying 12-bit 422? Do you get this info from Vertex or you just set it in Zidoo and assume it is 422?


Right, I understand now. So when you select a mode on a player, you get full information for that mode on the Vertex - it's as much a diagnostic tool as it is one to manipulate HDMI signals.


So I set 12-bit 422 and the Vertex confirms that's what is being squirted out.


But, 12-bit 422 is a very special HDMI mode - it has the same bandwidth at 12-bit as 444 at 8-bit. It allows HDMI 1.4 displays to be utilised to the best of their abilities (depending on how the source handles it!) but not all displays will allow it in their EDID.


This may be happening to you here, but what's really interesting in your case is that screenshot shows 4K 23.976 8-bit 422 which isn't a legal HDMI mode. That doesn't mean it can't happen, it just means it's outside of the HDMI specification.


12-bit 422 on all the 129* players exhibits colour banding, which from a 10-bit source (UHD BluRay rip for example) I've always thought must mean there's an 8-bit process in the display pipeline - your screenshot seems to imply that.


It may be that at 422 12-bit the player is processing internally at 8-bit (as per your screenshot) and outputting at 12-bit - I'll check this with the Vertex later, but it would fully explain the banding at 12-bit 422.


That said, you really want to display at 10-bit 444 ideally or 12-bit 444, either will give exactly the same image but 10-bit just uses less bandwidth and is true to the original encoding bit depth.


As for setting 12-bit 420, that mode just doesn't exist at 23.976fps in the spec so the player will revert to 12-bit 444 if EDID allows - so that behaviour is expected. Don't forget, what you set in the player's settings is a "target" and will depend on the source and the EDID. The player will make adjustments if the three don't tally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3DVideoBuff (Post 57144212)

...Anyway you could check the 3D signal on Zidoo X9S with Vertex? It appears correct without any doubled frames. Just wonder since everything else on X9S is showing 23.978 and doubled frames. If 3D on X9S is below it would prove and confirm this frame rate microstutter theory.


I'm afraid I don't use 3D at all so don't have any 3D videos to try - if you can point me in the direction of one, I'll certainly see what the Vertex says for frame rate - that'd be interesting to see for both the X9S and the Z9S.


This may help clear up the colour space vs bitdepth thing - another of my charts!! I created this one as cheat sheet to figure out what was going on with my display with all the different boxes dangling off it:



The green and orange numbers are bandwidth in Gbps.

markswift2003 11-22-2018 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zombie10k (Post 57145202)
Thanks for the deep dive! in my experience with the Oppo 203/205, Panasonic UB820 and Nvidia shield with UHD content and frame rates reported by vertex at 23.973 or 23.974 (depending on device)... I haven't see the skipped frame situation. definitely though with the Zidoo X9s and Dune 4K pro at the 23.978 and 23.981

It's good news to hear if the Z9S is behaving at 10 bit 444 / 23.974. I will pick one of these up based on your findings and give it a run, thanks again


You're welcome, but it was your original report of the Panasonic and the Oppo outputting at 23.973 that gave me the head start to figure out what was happening ;)


I think I'm about ready to call it on the Z9S - watched another couple of films and once again, no microstutter detected and the picture quality is subjectively excellent so I think I'll be writing a bit of Simpl+ code today to permanently install it in my cinema - It'll be taking 4K duties away from the Nvidia Shield.


I'd love @Sledgehamma to work his magic and do one of his reviews but I know he's said he hasn't got a 4K display yet...


Anyway, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

markswift2003 11-22-2018 03:06 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3DVideoBuff (Post 57144212)
...Please note 12-bit, 422 drops the display to 8 bits, 422.

Couldn't resist seeing what was going on here:




So this is the X9S set at 12-bit 422. The Zidoo info screen shows 8-bit and the Vertex shows 12-bit, which as we know is the only legal mode at 422.


So it looks like the Zidoo is processing the 10-bit file internally at 8-bit (which explains the banding) and then squirting it out at 12-bit.


Out of interest, you can see the HDR SEI message clearly showing the maxCLL and maxFALL data missing which is inherent in all the 129* boxes.


And here too:



...where you can see the full message.

Brajesh 11-22-2018 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zombie10k (Post 57145202)
It's good news to hear if the Z9S is behaving at 10 bit 444 / 23.974. I will pick one of these up based on your findings and give it a run, thanks again

Only caveat is Zidoo mucking this up with a future firmware. With X9S, the pre-v.1.5.0 f/w also did 23.976 correctly, but re-encoded MKV's (like 1920x800) would play squished filling 16x9 frame.

gadgtfreek 11-22-2018 06:27 AM

I usually just force 10 bit 444 or 422 on UHD blu-ray players, etc when it is available...

markswift2003 11-22-2018 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brajesh (Post 57146254)
... re-encoded MKV's (like 1920x800) would play squished filling 16x9 frame.


The Egreat still does something similar - it shifts 2.35 encodes vertically! Mad.

markswift2003 11-22-2018 06:42 AM

New firmware for the Z9S out today:


http://forum.zidoo.tv/index.php?thre...eleased.43240/


"10.Added HDR to SDR Gamma settings"


Nice!


EDIT - actually, not so nice... see this post:


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...l#post57150272

zombie10k 11-22-2018 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brajesh (Post 57146254)
Only caveat is Zidoo mucking this up with a future firmware. With X9S, the pre-v.1.5.0 f/w also did 23.976 correctly, but re-encoded MKV's (like 1920x800) would play squished filling 16x9 frame.

I thought about that recently and went back and flashed to 1.4.2 and was surprised to see the same framerate issue with UHD content. This was on an X8 and the X9S as well. Maybe they tweaked something with the 1296?

I'll pick one up from futeko.com and have it shipped to the US to check out.

Brajesh 11-22-2018 11:09 AM

The framerate being correct w/firmware prior to v1.5.0 was reported by @3DBuff at Kodi forum. I don't want to risk going back to that f/w as I'm reading some reports of units being bricked when attempting to do so.

Surprised Zidoo isn't selling Z-series via Amazon like they are X.

zombie10k 11-22-2018 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brajesh (Post 57147630)
The framerate being correct w/firmware prior to v1.5.0 was reported by @3DBuff at Kodi forum. I don't want to risk going back to that f/w as I'm reading some reports of units being bricked when attempting to do so.

Surprised Zidoo isn't selling Z-series via Amazon like they are X.

I recall reading that and tried 2 pre 1.5.0 version on the X8 and X9S, unfortunately the Vertex reported the same exact framerate issues that Mark documented.

I'll pay for expedited shipping to the US, I'm curious to see this now.

3DVideoBuff 11-22-2018 12:30 PM

@markswift2003 great in-depth analysis of 12-bit 422 issue. Is it the same with Z9X?


I'm really curious what 3D MVC format will show. For sample file just use Kodi video library:
https://kodi.wiki/view/Samples

You probably need 3D TV or Porjector to get Zidoo into 3D mode unless Vertex can act like one.


I never got to test fw 1.5.0 for doubled frames on X9S myself. There were few posts in the Zidoo forum regarding this, people flashing the unit back to 1.5.0.

3DVideoBuff 11-22-2018 12:56 PM

Looking at Mark's table we can draw a conclusion that frame rate / micro stutter issue is tied into software to some degree.
There are 3 players with the same RTD 1295 chipset in the list:
1. Dune Pro 4K
2. Zidoo X9S
3. Zappiti mini 4K HDR
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Dune and Zappiti look OK at lower resolutions and / or low demanding color space. They share the same issue when pushed to 4K, 10 or 12 bit and 444.

Ziddo X9S has a problem flat out ;)

Sledgehamma 11-23-2018 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57145586)


I'd love @Sledgehamma to work his magic and do one of his reviews but I know he's said he hasn't got a 4K display yet...

The missing 4K Display is just one aspect why I haven’t done a review yet. I finished my degree now so the job hunting has started. Rest assured, when all this is settled I will get a 4K Display and will do reviews again :)
Sadly, I just can’t say when this will happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3DVideoBuff (Post 57148068)
Looking at Mark's table we can draw a conclusion that frame rate / micro stutter issue is tied into software to some degree.
There are 3 players with the same RTD 1295 chipset in the list:
1. Dune Pro 4K
2. Zidoo X9S
3. Zappiti mini 4K HDR
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Dune and Zappiti look OK at lower resolutions and / or low demanding color space. They share the same issue when pushed to 4K, 10 or 12 bit and 444.

Ziddo X9S has a problem flat out ;)

It’s most likely due to the use of different SDK versions. For example Dune always lagged behind in using the latest SDK on their Sigma based models.

markswift2003 11-23-2018 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3DVideoBuff (Post 57147964)
@markswift2003 great in-depth analysis of 12-bit 422 issue. Is it the same with Z9X?


I'm really curious what 3D MVC format will show. For sample file just use Kodi video library:
https://kodi.wiki/view/Samples

You probably need 3D TV or Porjector to get Zidoo into 3D mode unless Vertex can act like one.


I never got to test fw 1.5.0 for doubled frames on X9S myself. There were few posts in the Zidoo forum regarding this, people flashing the unit back to 1.5.0.


Cool thank you - I'll try that this afternoon - I'll test on a non 3D display (easier than the projector) but I can set the Vertex to provide an EDID to fool the Zidoo into providing a 3D output.

markswift2003 11-23-2018 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3DVideoBuff (Post 57147964)
...
I'm really curious what 3D MVC format will show. For sample file just use Kodi video library:
https://kodi.wiki/view/Samples


Well, you were absolutely correct - both the X9S and the Z9S play 3D MVC MKV at 23.973fps so I wouldn't expect micro-stutter.

markswift2003 11-23-2018 06:03 AM

Just a quick note on the new firmware.


I upgraded to v1.9.7 from factory v1.7.7 because as a JVC projector owner, I was quite excited about the "optimization" of HDR to SDR conversion and the new "gamma" settings.


Unfortunately the optimizations have introduced some unpleasant posterisation effects on converting HDR to SDR so I would suggest that anyone for whom HDR to SDR is important skip this version.


I couldn't find a copy of v1.7.7 but managed to get a copy of v1.8.1 and that has reversed the changes.

tjenkins95 11-23-2018 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57150272)
Just a quick note on the new firmware.


I upgraded to v1.9.7 from factory v1.7.7 because as a JVC projector owner, I was quite excited about the "optimization" of HDR to SDR conversion and the new "gamma" settings.


Unfortunately the optimizations have introduced some unpleasant posterisation effects on converting HDR to SDR so I would suggest that anyone for whom HDR to SDR is important skip this version.


I couldn't find a copy of v1.7.7 but managed to get a copy of v1.8.1 and that has reversed the changes.

Thanks for this thread!I just ordered the Zidoo Z9S.
A few months ago I purchased a Synology NAS and converted about 250 4K UHDs to mkv and copied them to the NAS. I have been using the Nvidia Shield to watch them. I was going to start converting my regular blu-ray discs and wanted to bring over the special features too. I found this thread and decided to copy over the blu-rays in ISO format and pickup a new Zidoo to be able to play the ISOs.

zombie10k 11-23-2018 09:45 AM

I ordered one last night from futeko.com and they shipped it already, should be here in a few days.

Thanks mark for checking with the Vertex, I wouldn't have ordered one otherwise without the verification of the reported framerate.

I'll post my experience as well once it arrives.

zombie10k 11-23-2018 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjenkins95 (Post 57151212)
Thanks for this thread!I just ordered the Zidoo Z9S.
A few months ago I purchased a Synology NAS and converted about 250 4K UHDs to mkv and copied them to the NAS. I have been using the Nvidia Shield to watch them. I was going to start converting my regular blu-ray discs and wanted to bring over the special features too. I found this thread and decided to copy over the blu-rays in ISO format and pickup a new Zidoo to be able to play the ISOs.

Hi, which synology did you pick up? i'm running the DS1817+ with (8) 8 TB drives around 45TB raid 6. it's been great for over a year, no issues.


http://hometheaterphotos.com/projector2/synology3.jpg

I also use the Nvidia shield & Oppo 203 right now for UHD MKV playback on the RS600 and avoid using my Dune 4K Pro and Zidoo X9S due the issues we've been discussing on the skipped frames.

I'm looking forward to seeing they fully resolved it with this updated model.

markswift2003 11-23-2018 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zombie10k (Post 57151216)
I ordered one last night from futeko.com and they shipped it already, should be here in a few days.

Thanks mark for checking with the Vertex, I wouldn't have ordered one otherwise without the verification of the reported framerate.

I'll post my experience as well once it arrives.


It'll be really interesting to hear what you think about it. I think we just have to be a bit careful with firmware revisions.

tjenkins95 11-23-2018 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zombie10k (Post 57151236)
Hi, which synology did you pick up? i'm running the DS1817+ with (8) 8 TB drives around 45TB raid 6. it's been great for over a year, no issues.


http://hometheaterphotos.com/projector2/synology3.jpg

I also use the Nvidia shield & Oppo 203 right now for UHD MKV playback on the RS600 and avoid using my Dune 4K Pro and Zidoo X9S due the issues we've been discussing on the skipped frames.

I'm looking forward to seeing they fully resolved it with this updated model.


I am running the Synology DS918+ with four WD 8 TB hard drives. With about 250 UHD movie discs ripped to MKV, the NAS is already 47% full.
I was totally new to the NAS stuff when I started and I decided to configure them using JBOD to save space.
I learned about NAS from the Synology reviews by the "Spandotcom" guys on Youtube.
All my movie files are backed up with a couple of WD easystore® 8TB External USB 3.0 drives that I picked up at Best Buy when they were on sale
I wan to rip some of my blu-ray collection and any of the 4K UHD movie discs that contain both HDR and Dolby Vision to ISO.
I still haven't experienced Dolby Vision since I only own the projector.

Ray
raysdvds.org

3DVideoBuff 11-23-2018 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markswift2003 (Post 57150230)
Well, you were absolutely correct - both the X9S and the Z9S play 3D MVC MKV at 23.973fps so I wouldn't expect micro-stutter.

It all comes together now confirming that micro-stutters (doubled frames) are coming from frame rate variations. I noticed those micro stutters right from beginning when I got Zidoo X9S in spring of this year. I could see it on all HD and 4K movies as long as frame rate was 23.976 (95% of the movies) but not on 3D MVC.

My Zidoo is connected to 3D OLED LG C6 series. I do use medium frame interpolation setting for regular movies (to take down OLED judder) and high level for 3D movies for in-depth realizm. It does make things a little muddy like you said ;) You newer know if the motion blip was from TV motion processor or Zidoo itself but I didn't have those blips on previous player. At the end I did some testing with slow motion camera shutting off any frame interpolation and image processing what confirmed Zidoo issues.

Mark, can you update your table with 3D tests to keep it all in one place? I will update Zidoo stutter thread and make reference to you research and tables.

Thanks for your help :)

markswift2003 11-23-2018 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3DVideoBuff (Post 57152546)
It all comes together now confirming that micro-stutters (doubled frames) are coming from frame rate variations. I noticed those micro stutters right from beginning when I got Zidoo X9S in spring of this year. I could see it on all HD and 4K movies as long as frame rate was 23.976 (95% of the movies) but not on 3D MVC.

My Zidoo is connected to 3D OLED LG C6 series. I do use medium frame interpolation setting for regular movies (to take down OLED judder) and high level for 3D movies for in-depth realizm. I does make things a little muddy like you said ;) You newer know if the motion blip was from TV motion processor or Zidoo itself but I didn't have those blips on previous player. At the end I did some testing with slow motion camera shutting off any frame interpolation and image processing what confirmed Zidoo issues.

Mark, can you update your table with 3D tests to keep it all in one place? I will update Zidoo stutter thread and make reference to you research and tables.

Thanks for your help :)


Isn't it great that it all seems to finally make sense! Not great that the hardware doesn't work correctly, but finally an explanation that makes sense for both microstutter and 12-bit banding.


Indeed - I will update the table tomorrow, but I think I'll go a step further and try the 3D files on all machines so people with the other players listed can get more of a full picture.


And just for further confirmation - another film on the Z9S tonight and again not a single micro stutter. (San Andreas - expected nothing and got an awesome film with a very lively Atmos mix!!)


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