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post #1 of 43 Old 12-06-2018, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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DTVN and YTTV PQ

I felt bad "gumming up" other threads specific to a given streaming service and thought I'd move the discussion over to a new thread.

The conversation got to PQ of YTTV versus DTVN.

I found a number of articles that led me to believe the PQ on YTTV was equal to or better than DTVN for head to head stations

https://streambuzz.net/youtube-tv-60-fps/
https://streambuzz.net/streaming-services-comparison/

@m_snow mentioned he had done some tests a few months ago that shows otherwise and asked that I collect some data. Likewise I asked him if there were any third party articles supporting his work.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...l#post57231244

Attached is a quick sampling of Stats for Nerds on the ROKU YTTV app for a local rebroadcast, FoxNews and Fox Business. Sorry for the orientation, no matter what I do they show up this way
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post #2 of 43 Old 12-06-2018, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakstr View Post
I felt bad "gumming up" other threads specific to a given streaming service and thought I'd move the discussion over to a new thread.



The conversation got to PQ of YTTV versus DTVN.



I found a number of articles that led me to believe the PQ on YTTV was equal to or better than DTVN for head to head stations



https://streambuzz.net/youtube-tv-60-fps/

https://streambuzz.net/streaming-services-comparison/



@m_snow mentioned he had done some tests a few months ago that shows otherwise and asked that I collect some data. Likewise I asked him if there were any third party articles supporting his work.



Attached is a quick sampling of Stats for Nerds on the ROKU YTTV app for a local rebroadcast, FoxNews and Fox Business. Sorry for the orientation, no matter what I do they show up this way


Definitely can accept Stats for Nerds as authoritative and 1080p @60fps are very good numbers. Assuming the 720p is ESPN or another sports network. The fact that we are on different platforms may skew the results but I’m interested anyway.
What I’m trying to find out is how many are 1080/60 versus the other top two; DTTV and Hulu. I don’t have a lot of confidence in that chart because it focuses on frame rate and the editors’ posts on reddit show some bias towards YT. It also isn’t consistent with what I see here in the YTTV thread. Last August DTTV, YTTV and Hulu all claimed they upgraded everything to 1080/60. For DTVN that is 90% correct how about YTTV?


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post #3 of 43 Old 12-06-2018, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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The football game (720P) was the rebroadcast of the local FOX affiliate.

Please link to your stats. Also, have you found any articles that confirm your results?

My spot check seems to confirm the articles I posted.
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Originally Posted by m_snow View Post
Definitely can accept Stats for Nerds as authoritative and 1080p @60fps are very good numbers. Assuming the 720p is ESPN or another sports network. The fact that we are on different platforms may skew the results but I’m interested anyway.
What I’m trying to find out is how many are 1080/60 versus the other top two; DTTV and Hulu. I don’t have a lot of confidence in that chart because it focuses on frame rate and the editors’ posts on reddit show some bias towards YT. It also isn’t consistent with what I see here in the YTTV thread. Last August DTTV, YTTV and Hulu all claimed they upgraded everything to 1080/60. For DTVN that is 90% correct how about YTTV?


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post #4 of 43 Old 12-06-2018, 08:19 PM
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It's interesting you used the Roku nerd shots. Do you have a ATV4K? When I did the trial back in February, ATV4K was getting the connection speed consistently lower at 17Mbps. But the Roku Ultra was getting what you captured. But recently, this same discussion of what I thought was bitrate was corrected by @m_snow . Just to add to the tests, his YouTube TV connection speed results with ATV4K were same as your Roku as I recall the discussion.

I thought maybe some adaptive streaming was in play causing the slower connection speed. Same for PlayStation Vue but I couldn't measure that. In that same discussion, I was noting noise in dark backgrounds with PSV that I didn't see in DirecTV satellite.

It's also worth noting that PlayStation Vue has all channels at 60fps. Though resolution is 720p for all channels as well. Competition is good.

I was using my Roku to check framerate and was able to confirm that with PSV @ 60fps. Best tool I've got for that so I'm lacking in tools. I do trust m_snow for verifiable tool data.

Where it matters, DTVN has good specs but the DVR reliability and performance had me looking elsewhere because I record just about everything to time delay for commercial skip. The YTTV and PSV DVR capacity begins to separate DTVN from contention, for me, but my wife preferred DTVN so we had 2 streaming services until DirecTV offered competitive discounts for 12 months to come back. It's not sustainable unless the unimaginable happens. Doubtful, so I'll be looking at YTTV anew in August 2019 since the forced on-demand relaxed considerably since my trial in February.

Wife says she doesn't want to think about dropping DirecTV again. 1080 60i isn't all that bad for max resolution; I couldn't stand the genie minis freezing frame continually. They had to go; no 4K satellite for me. $35 of my monthly recurring discounts are actually granted longer term but stipulates that if I upgrade, I lose them. I won't settle for stuck or high monthly premiums so it's likely a short term stint with DirecTV.

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post #5 of 43 Old 12-06-2018, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rakstr View Post
Please link to your stats. Also, have you found any articles that confirm your results? My spot check seems to confirm the articles I posted.

They are in that thread (I’m not searching for them). The first series was this past spring measuring live TV the second group was this past summer validating DVR quality.

As for other articles I haven’t found any that provide a channel by channel listing that includes resolution and frame rate for both live and recorded programs for each of the providers using a known methodology. The ATV4K is good for this testing because it will overlay each apps content with the same categories of data. One of those data points is network bandwidth from the CDN which is useful for determining if there’s a potential buffering problem.



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post #6 of 43 Old 12-06-2018, 08:29 PM
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It's interesting you used the Roku nerd shots. Do you have a ATV4K? When I did the trial back in February, ATV4K was getting the connection speed consistently lower at 17Mbps. But the Roku Ultra was getting what you captured. But recently, this same discussion of what I thought was bitrate was corrected by @m_snow . Just to add to the tests, his YouTube TV connection speed results with ATV4K were same as your Roku as I recall the discussion.

I thought maybe some adaptive streaming was in play causing the slower connection speed. Same for PlayStation Vue but I couldn't measure that. In that same discussion, I was noting noise in dark backgrounds with PSV that I didn't see in DirecTV satellite.

It's also worth noting that PlayStation Vue has all channels at 60fps. Though resolution is 720p for all channels as well. Competition is good.

I was using my Roku to check framerate and was able to confirm that with PSV @ 60fps. Best tool I've got for that so I'm lacking in tools. I do trust m_snow for verifiable tool data.

Where it matters, DTVN has good specs but the DVR reliability and performance had me looking elsewhere because I record just about everything to time delay for commercial skip. The YTTV and PSV DVR capacity begins to separate DTVN from contention, for me, but my wife preferred DTVN so we had 2 streaming services until DirecTV offered competitive discounts for 12 months to come back. It's not sustainable unless the unimaginable happens. Doubtful, so I'll be looking at YTTV anew in August 2019 since the forced on-demand relaxed considerably since my trial in February.

Wife says she doesn't want to think about dropping DirecTV again. 1080 60i isn't all that bad for max resolution; I couldn't stand the genie minis freezing frame continually. They had to go; no 4K satellite for me. $35 of my monthly recurring discounts are actually granted longer term but stipulates that if I upgrade, I lose them. I won't settle for stuck or high monthly premiums so it's likely a short term stint with DirecTV.

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So you left YTTV for PS Vue or are you back to satellite?


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post #7 of 43 Old 12-06-2018, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I do have an ATV4K but I think there are issues with the YTTV app and ATV right now. See the YTTV thread. I looked at it just now and it's horrible. Also the stats for nerds built into YTTV is slightly different on the ATV4K. Roku 4660's are my daily driver goto devices although PLEX has made their stuff better on ATV

I've not seen @m_snow numbers but if he did them in February as you indicate then they're pretty much irrelevant with all YTTV has done n the past year.

As you can see, I've asked for a link to the data several times both here and in the DTVN thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brotony View Post
It's interesting you used the Roku nerd shots. Do you have a ATV4K? When I did the trial back in February, ATV4K was getting the connection speed consistently lower at 17Mbps. But the Roku Ultra was getting what you captured. But recently, this same discussion of what I thought was bitrate was corrected by @m_snow . Just to add to the tests, his YouTube TV connection speed results with ATV4K were same as your Roku as I recall the discussion.

I thought maybe some adaptive streaming was in play causing the slower connection speed. Same for PlayStation Vue but I couldn't measure that. In that same discussion, I was noting noise in dark backgrounds with PSV that I didn't see in DirecTV satellite.

It's also worth noting that PlayStation Vue has all channels at 60fps. Though resolution is 720p for all channels as well. Competition is good.

I was using my Roku to check framerate and was able to confirm that with PSV @ 60fps. Best tool I've got for that so I'm lacking in tools. I do trust m_snow for verifiable tool data.

Where it matters, DTVN has good specs but the DVR reliability and performance had me looking elsewhere because I record just about everything to time delay for commercial skip. The YTTV and PSV DVR capacity begins to separate DTVN from contention, for me, but my wife preferred DTVN so we had 2 streaming services until DirecTV offered competitive discounts for 12 months to come back. It's not sustainable unless the unimaginable happens. Doubtful, so I'll be looking at YTTV anew in August 2019 since the forced on-demand relaxed considerably since my trial in February.

Wife says she doesn't want to think about dropping DirecTV again. 1080 60i isn't all that bad for max resolution; I couldn't stand the genie minis freezing frame continually. They had to go; no 4K satellite for me. $35 of my monthly recurring discounts are actually granted longer term but stipulates that if I upgrade, I lose them. I won't settle for stuck or high monthly premiums so it's likely a short term stint with DirecTV.

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post #8 of 43 Old 12-06-2018, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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@m_snow

So let me square something up here.

You get indignant with me after I post both articles and data telling me to "put up or shut up" yet you post neither data nor links to sources to back up your opinion.

I even took the time to try to find these stats you claim exist but could not find them.

Did I get all that correct? Sorry but that's all a bit rich for my blood.

Happy to continue the discussion as soon as you bring some data to the table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_snow View Post
They are in that thread (I’m not searching for them). The first series was this past spring measuring live TV the second group was this past summer validating DVR quality.

As for other articles I haven’t found any that provide a channel by channel listing that includes resolution and frame rate for both live and recorded programs for each of the providers using a known methodology. The ATV4K is good for this testing because it will overlay each apps content with the same categories of data. One of those data points is network bandwidth from the CDN which is useful for determining if there’s a potential buffering problem.



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post #9 of 43 Old 12-06-2018, 09:09 PM
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So you left YTTV for PS Vue or are you back to satellite?


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I did the trial for YTTV while doing the 3 months for ATV4K promo with DTVN. I was also doing the DVR beta invite on DTVN.

I cancelled YTTV during the trial for reasons stated. I was also getting a free ride (trial extensions) in Hulu Live TV beta for pointing out issues with its DVR. (The enhanced DVR premium would have been prohibitively expensive.)

Seeing only little progress on the DTVN DVR, I decided to go with a PSV trial when my free time with Hulu was up and prepaid time with DTVN was almost up (I think this end of May, 2018). Up until August 2018, I was preferring PSV terms over the others but as I cancelled DTVN, the wife started her own DTVN trial and kept the subscription until we went back to Directv.

I was actually only suspended with DirecTV while mostly trials were in play but cancelled DirecTV when they sent out premature welcome back and asking me to update my credit card info. You've likely heard the story of me cancelling DirecTV 3 or 4 more times to get the credits they offered but cancelled one last time and started a BBB complaint. Office of the president stepped in, turned it back on and restored the credits and promises. But it didn't end there; unfortunately, it's been month to month credits added back on by retention because they can see what billing and escalations are doing contrary to the ledger that the office of the president setup. I'm having to call retention and refer them back to the ledger. Balancing this way is a tad annoying and repetitive, looking at bill and calculating errors is getting easier. Billing is deliberately confusing but only I care to balance it correctly. I may lose patience once the NFLST offer is used up. DirecTV still owes the $200 Visa gift card for coming back. I finally left the office of the president a voicemail because he said call if I had issues. I've been using email prior. Still practicing some patience...

I've paid little for TV this year which is nice compared to previous years. The promos, v gifts and trials were informative and gainful as well. Gotta love "free" stuff when paying so little.

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post #10 of 43 Old 12-07-2018, 05:12 AM
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@m_snow



So let me square something up here.



You get indignant with me after I post both articles and data telling me to "put up or shut up" yet you post neither data nor links to sources to back up your opinion.



I even took the time to try to find these stats you claim exist but could not find them.



Did I get all that correct? Sorry but that's all a bit rich for my blood.



Happy to continue the discussion as soon as you bring some data to the table.


No you don’t have it right. The “put up...” comment was related to your refusal to provide your own testing results using common tools from the same platform (ATV4K) for YTTV despite me asking politely several times. You want me to do your work for you. You want me to search the thread for my own data. You want me to search for third party confirmation of my results (not needed). For whatever reason you prefer to use someone else’s results which is based on different and possibly biased criteria. That is simply confirmation bias. I spent the time testing and posting mine as regular members in the DTVN forum are aware, now let’s see yours. Do the testing, take pictures of the on-screen data and let’s get this over with. I think that will benefit everyone and is the fairest most scientific approach.


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post #11 of 43 Old 12-07-2018, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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No, you claim to have this data so produce it. And yes I prefer third party data instead of mythical data produced by some unknown quantity. At least their data is accessible. And if your data is from last Spring it's pretty much useless today with all the changes. You seem to be a self proclaim judge about this.

Again, in the words of M_smow, put up or shut up!
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No you don’t have it right. The “put up...” comment was related to your refusal to provide your own testing results using common tools from the same platform (ATV4K) for YTTV despite me asking politely several times. You want me to do your work for you. You want me to search the thread for my own data. You want me to search for third party confirmation of my results (not needed). For whatever reason you prefer to use someone else’s results which is based on different and possibly biased criteria. That is simply confirmation bias. I spent the time testing and posting mine as regular members in the DTVN forum are aware, now let’s see yours. Do the testing, take pictures of the on-screen data and let’s get this over with. I think that will benefit everyone and is the fairest most scientific approach.


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post #12 of 43 Old 12-07-2018, 07:36 AM
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No, you claim to have this data so produce it. And yes I prefer third party data instead of mythical data produced by some unknown quantity. At least their data is accessible. And if your data is from last Spring it's pretty much useless today with all the changes. You seem to be a self proclaim judge about this.



Again, in the words of M_smow, put up or shut up!


Find it. There’s several posts from me on this. The fact that you can’t search for it and that you won’t produce your own tests points to one thing....laziness. Bye.


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post #13 of 43 Old 12-07-2018, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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BLAH BLAH BLAH. Like so many vacuous internet experts, all talk and bluster, no relevant data. Bless your heart!
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Find it. There’s several posts from me on this. The fact that you can’t search for it and that you won’t produce your own tests points to one thing....laziness. Bye.


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post #14 of 43 Old 12-07-2018, 08:42 AM
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BLAH BLAH BLAH. Like so many vacuous internet experts, all talk and bluster, no relevant data. Bless your heart!


The lesson for you is if you’re going to go troll an enthusiast thread you should be better prepared. Take care.


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post #15 of 43 Old 12-07-2018, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks mister no data! You're rich and comical.... I'll bet your dog is bigger too! Produce your current "data" and I'll match it! In my first post in this thread is an article with a spot check to verify.

Bless your heart
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The lesson for you is if you’re going to go troll an enthusiast thread you should be better prepared. Take care.


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Thanks mister no data! You're rich and comical.... I'll bet your dog is bigger too! Produce your current "data" and I'll match it! In my first post in this thread is an article with a spot check to verify.



Bless your heart


You’re the one not able to produce data, I have on multiple occasions as verified by brotony. You just need to learn how to use “search”. I’m not going to do your work for you. It doesn’t work that way. Don’t bother responding, I won’t see it.


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post #17 of 43 Old 12-07-2018, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Kind of like your "DATA", can't be seen

Gotta love internet experts......

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You’re the one not able to produce data, I have on multiple occasions as verified by brotony. You just need to learn how to use “search”. I’m not going to do your work for you. It doesn’t work that way. Don’t bother responding, I won’t see it.


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post #18 of 43 Old 12-07-2018, 10:16 AM
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The original article is nearly 8 months old right? If the update on November 8th was correct it paints a different picture on 60fps with YTTV and DTVN bringing up the rear.

Maybe I missed an update on that site? I'll have to check again to see if it's updated daily.

Both are noted for video quality and the industry is new and evolving IMO. DTVN went through noted changes in February and as late as October, likely all along but not so much the DVR. That should suggest that DTVN is continually improving its game. For whatever reason, the DVR is lacking on many fronts but there's a group of supporters that are happy despite that but comments are honest in that thread.

Given that, there's a good chance that DTVN has improved since the November 8th update. I think the suggestion that current data can be verified is relevant for both services. The cough, cough, moment had passed.

And it's rare that anyone suggests DTVN resolution and bitrate are lower than any competitor.

I said earlier that I trust @m_snow data. He and I actually shared quite a bit of posts with services used since February. He even suggested I trial Hulu but our shared experience was slightly different with PSV. I've been more critical of YTTV in the past because of its on-demand inserting itself over recordings. That's in the past but his defense of YTTV has been consistent.

Subscriber numbers likely bear that out that DTVN and YTTV are quality services as well.

Not that I need to defend m_snow but I've seen several of his posts of framerate and resolution and no one asked him for proof but trusted it. Pics? Maybe they were posted earlier to support his statements and they may yet be out there to discover or can be posted again if this conversation can relax to "let's see the current data point". And let's also look at the resolution and bitrate. It should also be noted that m_snow is often critical of DTVN but not brutal. Like many, wants to see improvement in all of the competitive streaming TV services.

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post #19 of 43 Old 12-07-2018, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Agreed and per the article that spreadsheet is updated "regularly". I've posted some data as of last night to spot check the article(s) I posted (pictures in original thread". I've also pointed out that there have been historical issues with YTTV and the ATV4K. There's one in progress as we speak. Another reason why the timeframe for the data and the platform on which it was collected is an important data point.
https://www.bestappletv.com/news/you...s-fix-to-come/

I've yet to see a spec of RECENT data to support anything else than what the article concludes (and others that post similar results) and it appears that YTTV matches and/or exceeds DTVN in all head to head channels.

I'd love to see some CURRENT data to either support that or refute that. It's all I've asked since the first post. I have no dog in this hunt other than I like to see people providing up to date recommendations and critique.

PS - you'll note the article focuses on "sports related channels and rebroadcast of locals". I purposefully chose two non-sports channels and one rebroadcast of a local affiliate for the spot check.

PPS - the highlighting of the "cough, cough" was in response to the erroneous assertion that the article held DTVN up as the "standard". The article did no such thing.

PPPS - I never made any assertion about one being better than the other. I merely replied to an initial post that said DTVN was far ahead of anyone else and the PQ on YTTV was lacking.

THANKS!

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The original article is nearly 8 months old right? If the update on November 8th was correct it paints a different picture on 60fps with YTTV and DTVN bringing up the rear.

Maybe I missed an update on that site? I'll have to check again to see if it's updated daily.

Both are noted for video quality and the industry is new and evolving IMO. DTVN went through noted changes in February and as late as October, likely all along but not so much the DVR. That should suggest that DTVN is continually improving its game. For whatever reason, the DVR is lacking on many fronts but there's a group of supporters that are happy despite that but comments are honest in that thread.

Given that, there's a good chance that DTVN has improved since the November 8th update. I think the suggestion that current data can be verified is relevant for both services. The cough, cough, moment had passed.

And it's rare that anyone suggests DTVN resolution and bitrate are lower than any competitor.

I said earlier that I trust @m_snow data. He and I actually shared quite a bit of posts with services used since February. He even suggested I trial Hulu but our shared experience was slightly different with PSV. I've been more critical of YTTV in the past because of its on-demand inserting itself over recordings. That's in the past but his defense of YTTV has been consistent.

Subscriber numbers likely bear that out that DTVN and YTTV are quality services as well.

Not that I need to defend m_snow but I've seen several of his posts of framerate and resolution and no one asked him for proof but trusted it. Pics? Maybe they were posted earlier to support his statements and they may yet be out there to discover or can be posted again if this conversation can relax to "let's see the current data point". And let's also look at the resolution and bitrate. It should also be noted that m_snow is often critical of DTVN but not brutal. Like many, wants to see improvement in all of the competitive streaming TV services.

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Yes. I'd like to see the current data compared.

I don't have the tools or the subscription to do it but I think I'll be back on streaming TV by next August. I can hardly stay away from these forums and threads because of the interest.

And definitely, fix the ATV4K on YTTV soon. It's kind of my favorite though I've bought others to compare, it's tough to beat.

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post #21 of 43 Old 12-07-2018, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you know the stats for nerds is built in to the YTTV app? That's how I did the screen shots I provided. Maybe that's common knowledge (not to me ) but previous comments led me to believe snow suggested he "jumped through hoops" to produce his April data. Since I've not seen it, I don't know what format it takes.

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Yes. I'd like to see the current data compared.

I don't have the tools or the subscription to do it but I think I'll be back on streaming TV by next August. I can hardly stay away from these forums and threads because of the interest.

And definitely, fix the ATV4K on YTTV soon. It's kind of my favorite though I've bought others to compare, it's tough to beat.

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I saw the data in my trial with YTTV back in February. Odd that then my ATV4K was showing 17 Mbps while the Roku was showing what you got. 48 Mbps.
@m_snow said he was seeing higher like the Roku at the same time I was seeing less.

He does have a way with the HUD and Mac to see comparable data though. That's useful comparing DTVN.

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post #23 of 43 Old 12-07-2018, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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This is why I want to see the data. For instance, that 48Mbps in the screenshots is the connection speed, nothing to do with PQ.
It just says it is on a 48Mbs connection. At least that's how I read it. Without seeing the data and the methods I can't comment on his data other than if it's from April it's really not worth reviewing.

Even quoting bitrates can be misleading because there are a number of mechanisms that may or may not be in use that cause periods of higher and lower buffering as well as corresponding bitrates. Anyway, it's not a simple comparison. I've been looking for information on levels of compression used by the various providers but have found nothing. IMO that's what you need to look at first is how good can the picture possibly be and then look at how good it is at the destination. Bear in mind there are many factors that may make each us receive different final images for the same content at any given point in time.

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I saw the data in my trial with YTTV back in February. Odd that then my ATV4K was showing 17 Mbps while the Roku was showing what you got. 48 Mbps.
@m_snow said he was seeing higher like the Roku at the same time I was seeing less.

He does have a way with the HUD and Mac to see comparable data though. That's useful comparing DTVN.

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Quote:
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This is why I want to see the data. For instance, that 48Mbps in the screenshots is the connection speed, nothing to do with PQ.
It just says it is on a 48Mbs connection. At least that's how I read it. Without seeing the data and the methods I can't comment on his data other than if it's from April it's really not worth reviewing.

Even quoting bitrates can be misleading because there are a number of mechanisms that may or may not be in use that cause periods of higher and lower buffering as well as corresponding bitrates. Anyway, it's not a simple comparison. I've been looking for information on levels of compression used by the various providers but have found nothing. IMO that's what you need to look at first is how good can the picture possibly be and then look at how good it is at the destination. Bear in mind there are many factors that may make each us receive different final images for the same content at any given point in time.
Agreed. I was getting connection and bitrate confused myself and not sure if the Apple TV HUD gives bitrate or not.

BTW, I didn't mean any criticism towards you about the cough, cough moment. Not so much of a criticism but rather time has erased that moment with progress is my opinion. It's more directed towards the date of that article, rather than an individual.

I think @m_snow can gather data and make comparisons that we can agree on but he needs something to compare it to. I know you've provided some data but unsure if that's what he needs?

Perhaps we can all agree the competitive dynamics of evolution changes, hopefully for the better and we can compare how they're comparing at the moment and going forward? Maybe I missed more of that current data? I'll go back and review when I have some time.

Did up see the comments in the PSV thread about all channels being 720p60 @ 4.5 Mbps? We think that is low but unsure how that data was collected or quoted from? I had commented on that thread to remark that matched my experience while subscribed. I think low bitrate is causing noise in dark backgrounds on PSV recordings. Otherwise the quality and streaming were ok. I'd like to see that improved going forward because competition is good for consumers.
@m_snow I'm still interested in the results, friend, if you can be compelled to share again, I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

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In order of photos (left to right, top to bottom) - Bravo, CBS (local CBS KTVT 11), CNN, ESPN, NBC (local NBC KXAS 5), BTN



All taken 1/28/2018 around 2PM CDT on a ROKU Ultra (4660) wired using YTTV Stats for Nerds.


Thanks. I was hoping to get bitrate because that’s a differentiator between services but you would need to get that from the Xcode heads up display since YT Stats for Nerds doesn’t provide that metric. As you can see DTVN gets around 10 Mbps as opposed to PS Vue and Sling which are around 5-6 Mbps. I’m sure YTTV is better than those two and it would be great if anyone else can tell us what that is. Higher bitrate=higher video quality. Here’s a chart from YouTube to illustrate. In any case thanks again. YTTV is a good service too.




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It's so much more than bitrate. And I'm not sure those tools are necessarily telling you everything you think they are but I don't really care enough to dig any deeper. This is probably why you don't see anything out there claiming to be a PQ comparison. Too much subjective variation and equipment can have a huge impact. That battle went on for years with DISH and DirecTV as well. Just like people complaining about 2.0 sound. I don't even notice it once my AVR works its magic into producing a 5.2 output.

Besides, you and I could get completely different results based on geography, ISP, and a host of other factors. My argument all along was that declaring one OBVIOUSLY better than another was reckless and just not true.

Anyway, this thread was created for people to post their data and opinions about PQ between YTTV and DTVN so feel free to post........
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Quote:
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It's so much more than bitrate. And I'm not sure those tools are necessarily telling you everything you think they are but I don't really care enough to dig any deeper. This is probably why you don't see anything out there claiming to be a PQ comparison. Too much subjective variation and equipment can have a huge impact. That battle went on for years with DISH and DirecTV as well. Just like people complaining about 2.0 sound. I don't even notice it once my AVR works its magic into producing a 5.2 output.



Besides, you and I could get completely different results based on geography, ISP, and a host of other factors. My argument all along was that declaring one OBVIOUSLY better than another was reckless and just not true.



Anyway, this thread was created for people to post their data and opinions about PQ between YTTV and DTVN so feel free to post........


This test was only about PQ, nothing else. It’s not about what you and I would get in different areas of the country or that we are using different equipment. I’m not comparing yours to mine. My methodology was using the same equipment, same network, same time of day, same channels A/B. I posted this stuff yesterday but I’ll pull it together again tomorrow and post. Again, the only thing that stood out was average and peak bitrate numbers and I’ve explained why that’s important yesterday. I even provided a chart from YouTube explaining what the expected results should be so people can compare with their own results.


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post #28 of 43 Old 01-30-2019, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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But it does because I might get different bitrates for each service here. Your focus on bitrate at one place and point in time as the ultimate arbiter of picture quality is unfounded but feel free to continue. I will not be........

Good luck....

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This test was only about PQ, nothing else. It’s not about what you and I would get in different areas of the country or that we are using different equipment. I’m not comparing yours to mine. My methodology was using the same equipment, same network, same time of day, same channels A/B. I posted this stuff yesterday but I’ll pull it together again tomorrow and post. Again, the only thing that stood out was average and peak bitrate numbers and I’ve explained why that’s important yesterday. I even provided a chart from YouTube explaining what the expected results should be so people can compare with their own results.


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@brotony @rakstr @Zookster

TL;DR - Attached are the Apple Xcode HUD screenshots with the complete streaming data of selected live TV channels. All are annotated with channel name. In the case of YTTV I have added “YTTV” to the annotation otherwise it means DTVN. They were all taken around the same time of day and side-by-side. You will see that resolution and frame rates between the two services are the same. The differentiator between the two is bitrate. There are two bitrate numbers for video...”average bitrate video” and “indicated bitrate peak”. The first is an average from the time it started to the time of the screenshot which is after ramp up usually a few minutes after start. The second is the highest peak it reached in that timeframe. The first (average) is the more important useful metric to focus on. Higher bitrates produce more color volume and therefore a sharper and clearer picture especially where there is movement such as movies and sports. To my eye there is not a lot of difference in PQ between these two services on static content like news and talk shows but there is less likelihood of artifacts and grain impacting what you’re viewing with a higher bitrate. As a comparison a Netflix 4K Dolby Vision movie averages between 16-20 Mbps and peaks at a little over 24 Mbps for video. An iTunes 4K Dolby Vision movie averages about the same.
You will see that DTVN, on average, has between 30-45% higher average bitrate depending on channel. Keep in mind that picture quality is subjective to the viewer but the usual data driven approach is to look at resolution, frame rate and bitrate as metrics. YMMV.
















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post #30 of 43 Old 01-31-2019, 01:20 PM
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@m_snow Thanks for sharing the data and screenshots. Could you also take some bitrate screenshots of a recording playback? I also have a nerd stat comparison request at bottom of this post.

Would that give any indication of recording quality? Among my complaints of DTVN recordings were 30fps and audio glitches. Even when audio was not glitchy, the audio seemed raised off pitch and low bandwidth (if there's such a thing?). Maybe there's been improvement since July on DTVN?

I'm thinking recording bitrate comparison on same device same channel/episode or movie is another benchmark for comparing service offering.

I was also wondering about the nerd stat comparison between Roku and ATV4K. You have both devices, right? Last February I was seeing a difference in connection speed. ATV4K was 17 Mbps and Roku was 42 Mbps on my devices. I know I've asked you about this before but there's also been recent issues with ATV4K PQ on YTTV. The comparison would be an indication to me if that issue still persists or not. And may also add clarity to data pulled comparing video bitrate between the 2 services.

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