Dune HD Realbox 4K (RTD1395) Thread - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 119 Old 05-05-2020, 07:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Dune HD Realbox 4K (RTD1395) Thread

https://www.dune-hd.com/products/dune-hd-realbox-4k

Last week Dune released a new box based on the Realtek RTD1395, and I contacted them asking about two things:

1) MaxCLL and MaxFALL passthrough

2) 23.976fps playback without stuttering

They replied with the following:

Quote:
Hello!

Thanks for your email.
We've tested RealBox 4K using HDFury in 4Kp23.976 HDR 4:2:0 10-bit and 12-bit HDMI video modes when playing 4Kp23.976 HDR 10-bit content and here are the results:
1) HDFury indicates that MaxCLL/MaxFALL are passed
2) HDFury indicates that frame rate is 23.973
Given that these two issues seem to be fixed on this box, assuming you believe what they say, at $150 it's a pretty good value if you wanna play back full disc images without the seamless branching issues that the Zidoo models currently have.

EDIT (Not entirely correct anymore):
Spoiler!


EDIT 2: Dune emailed me again this morning, proactively it seems, as I didn't ask for any more information at the time, this is what they had to say:

Quote:
Hello!

Sorry, there was a typo in the previous message, it mentioned "4:2:0", but it should be actually "4:4:4", i.e.:

We've tested RealBox 4K using HDFury in 4Kp23.976 HDR 4:4:4 10-bit and 12-bit HDMI video modes when playing 4Kp23.976 HDR 10-bit content and here are the results:
1) HDFury indicates that MaxCLL/MaxFALL are passed
2) HDFury indicates that frame rate is 23.973

Additional clarification:

By default, when connected to a modern 4K HDR TV, RealBox 4K will automatically use 4:4:4 10-bit video mode for 4Kp23 content.
This is the best and optimal setting in most cases and it works correctly according to our tests.

Regarding RealBox 4K tests done by markswift2013 in avsforum -- we are aware of 23.976 framerate issue in 4:2:2 12-bit mode (this mode is not used by default, but can be chosen manually in settings menu), we will look into possibilities to improve it as well.

If you have any other questions regarding RealBox 4K, please do not hesitate to ask.

Last edited by jwort93; 05-21-2020 at 06:26 AM.
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post #2 of 119 Old 05-05-2020, 07:19 AM
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I'm curious if this device visually outperforms the egreat A5 and passes thru all audio formats. I hate the egreat's poster art scanner but the video quality is better than any streaming device I've tested.
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post #3 of 119 Old 05-06-2020, 03:44 AM
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[quote
Given that these two issues seem to be fixed on this box, assuming you believe what they say, at $150 it's a pretty good value if you wanna play back full disc images without the seamless branching issues that the Zidoo models currently have.[/quote]

The framerate issue is definitely resolved as it was the main issue that annoyed me about the dune hd pro 4k and why I got realbox. Dont have hdfury to test correct metadata passthrough but good to know that it has also been resolved with these rtd1395 soc. After having this box for over 2 weeks I believe it is the best value for money media streaming device.
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post #4 of 119 Old 05-06-2020, 02:15 PM
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looks like nice unit if don't need the extra onboard attached storage options -

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post #5 of 119 Old 05-08-2020, 11:54 AM
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I'm kind of curious about this box - despite the name and hype, the 1395 is basically a cut down 1295 designed for OTT boxes (which this box isn't!) and released in 2018.

Same CPU, lesser GPU, less IO, but if they've finally nailed the framerate and HDR MetaData, it's a definite improvement to the old Pro - I'd expect the same performance despite the GPU.

Certainly an interesting prospect given the price of the Pro II.

However, since they now appear to have possession of an HDFury device, they have no excuse not to fix the frame rate problem on the Pro as Zappiti and Zidoo did on their 1295 boxes....

Bet they don't though.

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post #6 of 119 Old 05-10-2020, 08:52 AM
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Well I bit....looking to replace a couple of Dune H1s so I just ordered one to try.

Very basic needs - playing ISO or MKV from SMB source with support for all audio formats.

Fingers crossed!

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post #7 of 119 Old 05-11-2020, 08:47 AM
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I'm upgrading from an HD-TV303D because I want BD menu support. The Realbox arrived today, but I'm surprised that it's lacking two features of the 303 that are essential to me:


- Shifting audio forward in time
- Shifting subtitles backward in time



Does the Realbox really lack these features or am I missing something? Do I need to enable an advanced mode maybe?


If the Realbox can't do this: Is there any other player that can (and has BD menu support)? I'm willing to pay almost any price at this point, after trying out about a dozen players that all fell short.



Why I want these features:

On my system (Yamaha AVR, Epson projector), audio (not video) lags by ~100ms, and I'm very sensitive to that. Maybe most media are simply mastered for video latency? Anyway I can't watch something when the audio is 100ms late. It just drives me nuts :-)

Subtitles are by default shown before something is said, which gives away the scene/dialog. I like to use them just as a fallback when I couldn't understand something in English. This is nice but I could live without it.


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post #8 of 119 Old 05-11-2020, 06:55 PM
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Your Yamaha AVR should have a lip sync function to manually (or automatically) delay the audio. Video typically lags behind audio due to the video processing. I have 303D + Yamaha AVR(60ms audio delay) + projector. Thinking of getting the Realbox, so can't help with those settings, sorry.
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post #9 of 119 Old 05-12-2020, 04:01 AM
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The shop (iTDL+ in Germany) informed me that the features of shifting audio and subtitles were only supported by Sigma chipsets (which the 303D has), but not by Realtek or Amlogic. I should have asked them before, they responded super quickly and provided exactly the info I needed. Unfortunately it means I'll have to return the box. I have BDs/DVDs of almost all my movies and just wanted a playback device that doesn't suck as much as a physical BD player. The Realbox is indeed much faster and when you rip with AnyDVD you also get rid of super annoying forced clips etc., but that is kinda offset by having to rip the discs in the first place.



It's weird with the audio lagging, but I've had it now on 2 projectors, 2 AVRs and 3 players and it's always there. I'll open another thread to maybe get to the bottom of that.
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post #10 of 119 Old 05-18-2020, 10:50 PM
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Does this play back HDR files or is it just HDR media from youtube that can be viewed?? Seems a bit unclear to me.
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post #11 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rikkyjames View Post
Does this play back HDR files or is it just HDR media from youtube that can be viewed?? Seems a bit unclear to me.
It does, not only from YouTube, but local files as well.
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post #12 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 07:32 AM
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Curiosity got the better of me, so I just took delivery of one of these - many thanks to Futeko for their usual stirling service!

So this is a really odd little box.

First the good news - the Dune Shell is pretty much implemented as the 4K Pro and can be skinned as comprehensively as other Dunes.

It also fully supports yaDis - not that you'd expect issues with either of these, but thought it was worth mentioning, because beyond that, it's a bit of a s*** show.

Firstly, despite Dune's claims further up this thread, this box does not (yet?) support 23.976fps.

If you set either "1080p 23.976Hz" or "4K 2160p 23.976Hz" in video settings, the box refuses to push out anything other than 24fps as reported by an HDfury Vertex.

Even setting the gui to say 4K60 with auto framerate set to "ALL" still results in a framerate of 24fps with 23.976fps material.

This results in a frame repeat every 40s or so.

Similarly, 29.970fps material is output at 30fps.

Secondly, and probably more importantly, the only way to convince the box to output HDR is to set it to convert SDR to HDR, so it's full time HDR or nothing!!

If you set HDR to "auto" as most will want to, when playing HDR material it will output mostly zeros in the SEI message (as seen on the Vertex), so staying in SDR obviously resulting in the low contrast washed out presentation you get when showing HDR on an SDR monitor.

This is going to confuse a lot of people, particularly if you don't have an HDFury device to figure out what's actually going on.

So if you set HDR to "Convert SDR to HDR" this will output a valid SEI and switch to HDR, but obviously it will "convert" 709 SDR to 2020 HDR which is not really desirable.

(HDR to SDR is pretty awful, so not really worth mentioning).

And as for HDR metadata - wow!

Let's say that sometimes it works, mostly it doesn't, but it's hellishly confusing.

Sometimes it will show MDL, MaxCLL and MaxFALL as zero, sometimes it will display correctly.

Sometimes it will show zero for Movie "A" and then present the correct values for Movie "A" when playing Movie "B" and occasionally, but not always, carrying those old values over into the GUI after Movie "B" has stopped - Absolutely bonkers!!

Chroma banding, although still marginally present, is improved over previous models in 4K 12-bit 422 indicating that maybe the 8-bit pipeline in that mode has been fixed by Realtek, however the most desirable mode is 4K 10-bit 444 ...But... this mode is not recognised by the Vertex - something I've only ever seen before on a Zidoo X9S.

There also seem to be some network issues - if you leave the box using DHCP then it seems to get itself very confused over network availability - setting a static IP seems to fix that, and that's what I would always do, but I know some will just stick with DHCP.

This is on the latest firmware (although shipping firmware was the same) and I know it's early days for firmware yet, but come on, it's not like Dune haven't been developing on the Realtek platform for long.

That said, hopefully at least some of these issues will get fixed in upcoming releases, but I'm very dubious over the framerate and HDR metadata given this is ostensibly the same box as the Pro 4K just with a lesser GPU and fewer IO.

If it worked, it'd be a nice little box.

***

One thing I forgot to mention - in @jwort93 's post above, the reply he got from Dune about frame rate and meta data reads:

"We've tested RealBox 4K using HDFury in 4Kp23.976 HDR 4:2:0 10-bit and 12-bit HDMI video modes when playing 4Kp23.976 HDR 10-bit content and here are the results:
1) HDFury indicates that MaxCLL/MaxFALL are passed
2) HDFury indicates that frame rate is 23.973"


Well they can't possibly have "tested RealBox 4K using HDFury in 4Kp23.976 HDR 4:2:0 10-bit and 12-bit HDMI video modes" because there is no legal HDMI mode for 4:2:0 at 23.976fps!

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post #13 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 08:05 AM
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!!!

When you say 24, you mean 24.00 or a value higher than 23.976?

Can you test any hdr10+ or DV titles?
The bd engine for the menus is the same?
Can you test titles being incompatible with he zidoo, in case they playback better on this one?

Thanks in advance.

PS. I am also waiting for mine and I must admit I did not like your first test results at all...

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post #14 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadergr View Post
!!!

When you say 24, you mean 24.00 or a value higher than 23.976?

Can you test any hdr10+ or DV titles?
The bd engine for the menus is the same?
Can you test titles being incompatible with he zidoo, in case they playback better on this one?

Thanks in advance.

PS. I am also waiting for mine and I must admit I did not like your first test results at all...
I mean 24, as in 24.000 (Vertex reads to 3 decimal places but omits the decimal places when it's a whole number.

In film speak, it outputs 24000/1000 for 24000/1001 material.

I don't have any HDR10+ material but as expected, it won't play DV (profile 5) material.

I only rip to MKV so don't have any BD rips to test, but to be honest, if it can't even play at the correct frame rate or handle HDR SEI messages correctly, the rest is kind of moot at the moment.
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post #15 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 08:22 AM
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Thanks a lot mark! Having said that, I would have expected at least some basics would be working properly all the time...
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post #16 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 08:31 AM
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Think I found a clue as to why 4K23 isn't working - although it's listed in the Dune Shell, it's not listed in the Android OS settings... (the EDID supports it btw )

Also, HDR behaves differently at 4K 10-bit 444 - It seems to switch in, but not switch out again in "Auto".

I'll try an HDFury Vertex 2 later and see if that will recognise that mode so I can see the SEI message (previous testing was with a Vertex 1) but it seems the SEI persists after playback...
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post #17 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
Think I found a clue as to why 4K23 isn't working - although it's listed in the Dune Shell, it's not listed in the Android OS settings... (the EDID supports it btw )

Also, HDR behaves differently at 4K 10-bit 444 - It seems to switch in, but not switch out again in "Auto".

I'll try an HDFury Vertex 2 later and see if that will recognize that mode so I can see the SEI message (previous testing was with a Vertex 1) but it seems the SEI persists after playback...
So you found a way to force enable 23.976?
Or just realized there is no 23.976 option in the Android settings menu?

The way you describe things, it is just a 160€ coaster at this moment

Just like Sledgehamma stated, it should at least get the basics (23,976, HDR) right...

The good thing is that it appears to be a software bug that should be very easy to fix.
But if it is an SDK issue, i wouldn't bet on Realtek to release a fix soon.

I am thinking of switching my order to a pre-order for the ProII model.
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post #18 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadergr View Post
So you found a way to force enable 23.976?
Or just realized there is no 23.976 option in the Android settings menu?

The way you describe things, it is just a 160€ coaster at this moment

Just like Sledgehamma stated, it should at least get the basics (23,976, HDR) right...

The good thing is that it appears to be a software bug that should be very easy to fix.
But if it is an SDK issue, i wouldn't bet on Realtek to release a fix soon.

I am thinking of switching my order to a pre-order for the ProII model.

What makes you think it might be any better - other than the fact it’s more expensive. This is fundamental stuff and they should be getting it right straight out of the gate. Doesn’t bode to well for the Pro II model IMHO.


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post #19 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post
What makes you think it might be any better - other than the fact it’s more expensive. This is fundamental stuff and they should be getting it right straight out of the gate. Doesn’t bode to well for the Pro II model IMHO.


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Well, my only hope goes for 1619 being an evolutionary SoC, instead of 1395 which is a cut-down version of the, already not perfect, 1295 one.
I believe that Realtek, by default, will at least include all the existing positives seen in its 1296 version, to its 1619 one.

PS. By Dune being a member of the HDR10+, chances of them paying for a DV license should be minimal...
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post #20 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadergr View Post
Well, my only hope goes for 1619 being an evolutionary SoC, instead of 1395 which is a cut-down version of the, already not perfect, 1295 one.
I believe that Realtek, by default, will at least include all the existing positives seen in its 1296 version, to its 1619 one.

PS. By Dune being a member of the HDR10+, chances of them paying for a DV license should be minimal...
I don't think that this has anything to do with getting a DV license or not. It's more a question of signing Dolby's agreement or not. Over at OSMC I read that Dolby has quite a few ridiculous requirements....
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post #21 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
Curiosity got the better of me, so I just took delivery of one of these - many thanks to Futeko for their usual stirling service!

So this is a really odd little box.......
Well that's definitely disappointing, really appreciate you taking the time to buy one and look into it! You think you're gonna return it?
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post #22 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 10:41 AM
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I don't think that this has anything to do with getting a DV license or not. It's more a question of signing Dolby's agreement or not. Over at OSMC I read that Dolby has quite a few ridiculous requirements....
You are probably correct.
But them being official hdr10+ supporters is a good excuse to not opt for DV. I understand that Zidoo is on the same hdr10+ list as well.

Aside from that, it is absolutely ridiculous to release a dune hd branded tv box in 2020 and not have the basics right (frame rate, hdr) from the start.

Anyone tested Dolby Atmos? Should we expect more fails?
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post #23 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 11:23 AM
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@markswift2003

You returning or riding out the storm?


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post #24 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 11:24 AM
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Ok, so here's interesting... Slightly better news..

The Vertex 1 will not accept a 4K 10-bit 444 signal from the Real Box, so all tests so far have been 4K 12-bit 422.

I've now tried the Vertex 2 and that does accept 4K 10-bit 444.

And with the Real Box set to 4K 2160p 23.976Hz, 10-bit, 4:4:4 the box spits out a perfect 23.973fps (as Dune stated above).

HDR madness not withstanding, the main issue with this mode is audio dropout of TrueHD (including Atmos) streams (certified cables to a Denon 7200).

So change mode to 4K23 12-bit 444 and the audio dropouts are gone and we're still at 23.973fps.

(I've seen this 10-bit TrueHD dropout behaviour with Dunes before)

So the only usable mode seems to be 4K23 12-bit 444, which is ok as you only use one, but I think it's just going to cause people lots of headaches.

And we still have HDR freakiness to contend with.

However, there's stranger behaviour there too - with the Vertex 2 in line or indeed out of line, HDR appears to work in auto with the caveat that the SEI messages seem to persist and so the GUI, although presented in SDR 709 is decoded by the monitor in HDR and BT.2020, so contrast and saturation is off the scale.

HDR silliness is reset if you input an SDR movie, say an HD one, but resumes as soon as you go back to a 4K HDR movie and come back out to the GUI.

MaxCLL, MaxFALL and mastering monitor info still remain completely mad!!

This is very reminiscent of the Zappiti 1295 box where they finally got the framerate correct, but only at 4K 10-bit 444 - all other modes, including HD were still off.

Think I'm going to rename this The Crazy Box!!

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post #25 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwort93 View Post
Well that's definitely disappointing, really appreciate you taking the time to buy one and look into it! You think you're gonna return it?
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Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post
@markswift2003

You returning or riding out the storm?


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I'm going to keep it, but only for messing with - I love this stuff as a hobby and I never really bought this as a serious player - as I said, curiosity got the better of me

I truly don't expect these issues to be present in the Pro II since it genuinely is a newer SOC, not as in this case, just a cheaper 2018 reworking of a 2016 one, and remember, when Zidoo brought the Z9S out with the newer 1296 that cured all the HDR and framerate woes out of the box.
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post #26 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
Ok, so here's interesting... Slightly better news..

The Vertex 1 will not accept a 4K 10-bit 444 signal from the Real Box, so all tests so far have been 4K 12-bit 422.

I've now tried the Vertex 2 and that does accept 4K 10-bit 444.

And with the Real Box set to 4K 2160p 23.976Hz, 10-bit, 4:4:4 the box spits out a perfect 23.973fps (as Dune stated above).

HDR madness not withstanding, the main issue with this mode is audio dropout of TrueHD (including Atmos) streams (certified cables to a Denon 7200).

So change mode to 4K23 12-bit 444 and the audio dropouts are gone and we're still at 23.973fps.

(I've seen this 10-bit TrueHD dropout behaviour with Dunes before)

So the only usable mode seems to be 4K23 12-bit 444, which is ok as you only use one, but I think it's just going to cause people lots of headaches.

And we still have HDR freakiness to contend with.

However, there's stranger behaviour there too - with the Vertex 2 in line or indeed out of line, HDR appears to work in auto with the caveat that the SEI messages seem to persist and so the GUI, although presented in SDR 709 is decoded by the monitor in HDR and BT.2020, so contrast and saturation is off the scale.

HDR silliness is reset if you input an SDR movie, say an HD one, but resumes as soon as you go back to a 4K HDR movie and come back out to the GUI.

MaxCLL, MaxFALL and mastering monitor info still remain completely mad!!

This is very reminiscent of the Zappiti 1295 box where they finally got the framerate correct, but only at 4K 10-bit 444 - all other modes, including HD were still off.

Think I'm going to rename this The Crazy Box!!
Great findings. Appreciate the effort.

1. Can you also test 4K with 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 with 10 and 12 bit settings?
What is the behavior of the box with color/space options to auto?

2. 1080p remux files and bd folders run at perfect 23.973? Any 1080p (blu ray playback) combination for 23,973 without audio dropouts?

3. Given dune’s dirty history with Netflix playback, can you test a DV demo file? Although a long shot, it would not be a total surprise for Dune to enable it and not mention a single thing about it

Thanks again.

Last edited by vadergr; 05-19-2020 at 11:46 AM.
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post #27 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
I mean 24, as in 24.000 (Vertex reads to 3 decimal places but omits the decimal places when it's a whole number.

In film speak, it outputs 24000/1000 for 24000/1001 material.

I don't have any HDR10+ material but as expected, it won't play DV (profile 5) material.

I only rip to MKV so don't have any BD rips to test, but to be honest, if it can't even play at the correct frame rate or handle HDR SEI messages correctly, the rest is kind of moot at the moment.
HDR10+ and DV single and dual layer test files:[link]
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post #28 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadergr View Post
Great findings. Appreciate the effort.

1. Can you also test 4K with 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 with 10 and 12 bit settings?
What is the behavior of the box with color/space options to auto?
You can only have 12-bit at 422 with 4K, so the post above details those findings.

For 4:2:0 you have to be in 50/60Hz, so I tried Gemini Man.

In order to display at the correct framerate of 60000/1001 (59.940fps) you have to set the GUI to 59.94 - Auto framerate does not work if you set the GUi to 60Hz and if you go below, Dune have this weird thing where auto frame rate does not go above the GUI resolution. Again, a bit mad.

But if you get the settings right, it will play at 59.932fps at 4:2:0 10 and 12-bit but it's a real faff - Zidoo doesn't have these limitations on frame rate settings. This I would expect to carry over to the Pro II.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vadergr View Post
2. 1080p remux files and bd folders run at perfect 23.973? Any 1080p (blu ray playback) combination for 23,973 without audio dropouts?
Only done very preliminary tests at 2K, but 2K 10 and 12-bit 444 run at the right frame rate.

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Originally Posted by vadergr View Post

3. Given dune’s dirty history with Netflix playback, can you test a DV demo file? Although a long shot, it would not be a total surprise for Dune to enable it and not mention a single thing about it

Thanks again.
Nope, tried a Dolby Vision Profile 5 mp4 and no dice.
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post #29 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 12:27 PM
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More on HDR metadata:

MDL, MaxFALL and MaxCLL values seem to be reported correctly more often than they are missed - most files show correct values, but some just show zero, despite being present in the file - no idea why though.
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post #30 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnice77 View Post
HDR10+ and DV single and dual layer test files:[link]
Cool - will download and test later...

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