2014 Value Electronics Flat-Panel Shootout Results Are In - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 08:30 PM
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Contrast ratio is just crazy with OLED. Un-measurable, lol
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Last edited by tubby497; 08-18-2014 at 08:41 PM.
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post #62 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
Raise mll and you've made the blacks more stable as they don't need to float as much since there's now less distance to travel. Then say 'mission accomplished' and type "picture quality improved" into your firmware notes.
possibly true, but oh so sad.


by that logic the BO is the devil then too.


this was one 'flaw' with crt I actually really liked. I LIKE that a display gets darker when a dark scene is displayed. it seems to work perfect with how my eyes work. when the scene is dark, my pupils dilate and I NEED the tv to be dimmer and darker. when the scene gets bright, my pupils constrict and I can no longer tell that the black areas on screen aren't actually black anymore.

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post #63 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 08:38 PM
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Agreed if it floated outside of ny eyes perception (as in the oleds case with early measurements) then I wouldn't mind either.
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post #64 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubby497 View Post
Contrast ratio is just crazy with OLED. Un-measerable, lol

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post #65 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
Agreed if it floated outside of ny eyes perception (as in the oleds case with early measurements) then I wouldn't mind either.
I think the f8500(and other high end plasmas/oled I'm sure) already have ansi contrast higher than my eyes can perceive. I remember early when I bought the f8500 and trying to calibrate it I thought I was crushing blacks, but realized when I covered the bright areas on screen, I was able to see the detail in the dark areas again. since them I've actually been trying to figure out the best way to dim the peak whites on the display, but it seems like every method comes with flaws


it's also brought a potential 'issue' with my vision to my attention. might explain why I find it nearly impossible to go outside on a sunny day without sunglasses
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post #66 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 09:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I think the f8500(and other high end plasmas/oled I'm sure) already have ansi contrast higher than my eyes can perceive. I remember early when I bought the f8500 and trying to calibrate it I thought I was crushing blacks, but realized when I covered the bright areas on screen, I was able to see the detail in the dark areas again. since them I've actually been trying to figure out the best way to dim the peak whites on the display, but it seems like every method comes with flaws


it's also brought a potential 'issue' with my vision to my attention. might explain why I find it nearly impossible to go outside on a sunny day without sunglasses
You may have adrenal Fatigue. Check it out.
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post #67 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas oled View Post
I am a BIG believer in OLED and was convinced the only issue I do like with LG OLED is screen Uniformity would be fixed. While some of them are acceptable the last one I had gave visible banding in low light grey scenes like in a outdoor fog scene. The second set I had color variations from the center too the edge as I have posted about causing major issues in black and white scenes. What we do not want is LG to continue with these issues on a 77 OLED. I assure you it would drive most of the 2% crazy.
Grayscale banding can be fixed in the EC9300. However, it requires a specific methodology to be used with the 2 and 20 point control set. I spent some quality time with the head LG engineers that were at the shoutout and learned how to do it (albeit I had to tweak their method so that it can be used for various setups).
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post #68 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 09:06 PM
 
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So going over the final results it looks like LG OLED is the newest Kuro Killer.
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post #69 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 09:06 PM
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Scott, could you please ask Robert and the other guys why is the winner of the shootout always picked based on this scoring system?

I honestly don't get why they use this method to actually pick the winner. Don't get me wrong, I actually think the scoring process provides very valuable information about how each member of the audience views each tv in each of those 6 categories, I've just been wondering for the past few years why they don't use a simpler or a more effective method to choose the top performer. Wouldn't it be easier (and more effective) if they just give every member in the audience at the end of the event a small piece of paper and tell them to write down the name of the tv with the picture quality they thought was the most visually appealing?

"Alright guys, now that it's all said and done, considering only real world content (movies,etc.), if money was no object, and you wanted to choose the tv that had the picture quality you thought was the most pleasing to your eyes, which one would it be? Please write the name of the tv on a small piece of paper and put it in this box" .. Done!

The scoring should still be part of the process because of how valuable all this information really is, but it shouldn't decide the winner!
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post #70 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
That was the ANSI checkerboard measurements. I take it you also are not aware of the firmware updates that impacted both blacks and light output to resolve brightness pops/fluctuating black levels.
Would you consider this a better unit now (now with slightly poorer blacks and light output for a more consistent picture)? I was considering getting one very soon, but it sounds a little like my old VT30, which blacks rose considerably over time. Lighting ended its life, but now I have the opportunity to get a better television. Well that was the idea...

Is this still as great of a unit as it was last year? Thoughts?
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post #71 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 10:53 PM
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As owner of an F8500, I wasn't surprised that it would finish behind OLED in black levels and contrast. What surprised me is that its still is more accurate with color. I figured plasma would still be better with motion. Wonder if they would have included the ZT, OLED would have finished second.

LG 65E6P OLED - LG 65EF9500 OLED - OPPO 203 - OPPO 103D
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post #72 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 10:56 PM
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So a hypothetical shootout of:

LG OLED vs.
Samsung plasma vs.
Sony 65" 950

really would have done the trick.

Given the downright pathetic showing of the LCDs in terms of serious videophile performance, it seems like the Vizio P series has a very real chance of being the smart choice in LCD. Why spend more if it's not going to be anything special anyway? Heck, it might not even be better!

As for LG, I cannot wait for the 65" and 77" to ship. I mean add in 4K and, more important, bigger sizes... Wow.
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There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #73 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 11:13 PM
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I know it's apples and oranges but since there was no 1080P LCD/LED in the lineup I compared the score of last year's Sony XBR-65X900A and Samsung's 55F8000 which averaged 7.3 against Samsung's 64F8500 which scored 9.1 in 2013 (8.67 in this year's scoring). 7.3 is near about what the 4K LCD/LED sets got this year ----
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post #74 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
This was posted one of the other threads:
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Interesting results, aren't they?

I can personally tell you that myself, Kevin and David do not agree with the posted audience results nor do we think they are valid based on our interactions during both presentations. The numbers don't add up and seem to be weighted. We the calibrators had ZERO input/interaction with how the numbers were calculated (nor should we) but something is definitely wrong.

Sorry for what is clearly erroneous data but again, we the calibrators had nothing to do with it.
Well isn't that interesting...

Thanks for posting that.
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post #75 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 11:46 PM
 
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Well isn't that interesting...

Thanks for posting that.
Samsung OLED should have one, I have seen them and they are near perfect.
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post #76 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by conan48 View Post
You may have adrenal Fatigue. Check it out.
I looked it up quickly and don't see any link between that and not being able to see high contrast, haha.

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post #77 of 599 Old 08-18-2014, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas oled View Post
Samsung OLED should have one, I have seen them and they are near perfect.
Vegas when you saw the Samsung OLED in person do you feel in any way that the blacks were not just the same as the LG OLED.
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post #78 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 12:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bigcoupe2003 View Post
Vegas when you saw the Samsung OLED in person do you feel in any way that the blacks were not just the same as the LG OLED.
I felt the Samsung OLED was the most perfect display I had ever seen. The color, contrast, black levels were perfect. The LG is great but not on the level of the Samsung. I made similar comments last week prior to the Shootout.

In black level they are tied.

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post #79 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 12:27 AM
 
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I figure I'll share my votes here:



Congratulations to LG. The OLED won despite a number of flaws that kept it from being perfect, which is a really good sign. I suspect the forthcoming UHD OLEDs will be formidable TVs. As it stands, 1080p still beats UHD... and the F8500 beat all of the LCDs in every single category. I also want to congratulate the audience as well as the pros for voting wisely.
It's not 1080P that beats 4k, it's OLED and plasma that beat LCD.
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post #80 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 01:57 AM
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As the Forum Member who has Fought harder in the name of LG OLED I have one comment.


Do You Believe in LG OLED Now?
I don't know I've never seen one....

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
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post #81 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 04:19 AM
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As owner of an F8500, I wasn't surprised that it would finish behind OLED in black levels and contrast. What surprised me is that its still is more accurate with color. I figured plasma would still be better with motion. Wonder if they would have included the ZT, OLED would have finished second.
What surprised me is given the saturation chart, it appeared that the F8500 was calibrated at 100% saturation which isn't optimal and it still got the most accurate color.
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post #82 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 04:55 AM
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Its also brand loyalty whether the audience wants to admit it or not. How do I come to this? You have pro calibrators at the show in total disagreement with regular/enthusiasts even from AVS. I rate the calibrators opinion higher by a long shot. Its also based on people that having way different sight from 20/20, 20/10, to 20/40. Its ultimately up to the buyer to like what they see.


Personally, no way would I buy a 55" 1080p OLED over a Samsung UHD 78UH9000 that has been well calibrated. 23 inch difference there, that's HUGE! If you sat both TVs calibrated next to each other, and said they were free, which one you going to take?? Size matters too! You have a regular lot of people come over for movies or football, you telling me you are going to huddle everyone around the wittle 55incher or the 78 inch UHD TV?

No these shootouts have too many variables working against them with individual eyesight being one of them. Its a nice thought, it just doesn't work. Now if you guys want to have a 55 inch panel shootout, with 65 incher in the same thread cool. Compare size to size.
I am the exact opposite. I would take the 55" 1080P OLED over the any other tv regardless of size....actually I did just that
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post #83 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bassplayer6 View Post
Isn't contrast ratio related to black level?
If so, how the sony with 714 had a higher black score than the hu85 with 3000?

Thanks for the clarification.
IMO measured black levels on LCDs that use local dimming is a deceptive number that does not properly correlate to image quality, due to visible artifacts. My score is not a measurement, it's my impression of the quality of the blacks.

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post #84 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 05:11 AM
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The only problem I see in the shoot out is that at least one panel member (Mark of AVS) owns one of the TV's in the shoot out. (The F8500)

I'm sorry but one cannot be a least a little bias towards a TV that you watch on a regular basis and have already decided in your own opinion is the best TV out there.

I think no person should have been a panel member if they owned any of the TV's in the shoot out or were affiliated with any of the companies in any way.
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post #85 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 05:19 AM
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The only problem I see in the shoot out is that at least one panel member (Mark of AVS) owns one of the TV's in the shoot out. (The F8500)

I'm sorry but one cannot be a least a little bias towards a TV that you watch on a regular basis and have already decided in your own opinion is the best TV out there.

I think no person should have been a panel member if they owned any of the TV's in the shoot out or were affiliated with any of the companies in any way.
I did notice he scored it very very high too. Granted it is a great panel, but I agree it is sure to add some bias. However, you would have to expect some of these panels to be owned by panel members.
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post #86 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by scottnv View Post
The only problem I see in the shoot out is that at least one panel member (Mark of AVS) owns one of the TV's in the shoot out. (The F8500)

I'm sorry but one cannot be a least a little bias towards a TV that you watch on a regular basis and have already decided in your own opinion is the best TV out there.

I think no person should have been a panel member if they owned any of the TV's in the shoot out or were affiliated with any of the companies in any way.
The only bias I have is towards quality. I have a bias against the flawed UHDTVs that were supposed to dominate the competition. My votes line up quite closely with the overall results, fwiw.

I did not decide the F8500 is the best TV out there. Last year's shootout decided that.
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post #87 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Mattopotamus View Post
I did notice he scored it very very high too. Granted it is a great panel, but I agree it is sure to add some bias. However, you would have to expect some of these panels to be owned by panel members.
Did I score it too high? If so, then last year everybody scored it (the F8500) way too high.

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post #88 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 05:28 AM
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I agree that a rating of 6 isn't that bad. but if the best of the best is getting a 6, what the heck is going on with the 10models below it? I mean if these were mid level displays that cost around 1000-1500 for a 65" then 6 would be totally respectable.

but, as a teacher, if my 'smartest' student only got 60%, I'd be trying to figure out what the heck I did wrong. 60% is below 'average' and while it may be 'good enough' in the large scheme of things, it's not like we'd nominate a kid with 60% average for a scholarship.

imo, any display getting a rating lower than 8 overall has no business being called 'high end'.
The Shootout is kind of the scholarship. Basically all TVs chosen for the Shootout are high-end.
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post #89 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 05:31 AM
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Have these results been certified by any reputable organization? Did manufacturers pack the voters? Did any participants cast multiple ballots? How many severely visually impaired cast ballots? this was not even picking random people out to view and cast votes? How can you request a recount? The participants know what model etc they were voting for and many votes I suspect were biased by that fact. LOL

Do you care what the results were other than self validation and will the results at all influence any buying decision you will make over the next year?
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post #90 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 05:31 AM
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The Shootout is kind of the scholarship. Basically all TVs chosen for the Shootout are high-end.
And just as it is with audio, the highest price combined with slick design does not automatically and directly translate to the best performance.
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