Pricing for new LG OLEDs revealed - Page 60 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1771 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Yappadappadu View Post
The near black issues are there as confirmed by several owners of both the EC9700 and the new EG9600.
And, as you can see above, I did see them and I did report them.

Unlike the mischaracterization of my observations that Mark made, I am not blind to the issues that do exist, but I won't report (or at least embellish as Mark loves to do) issues that either don't exist or are greatly exaggerated.
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post #1772 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
If only OLED had no significant issues, but alas at present there are PQ issues that do not show up specs. Sure, there are some superfans of the tech who are seemingly unable to spot unwanted processing, inaccurate color tracking, black crush, and screen uniformity issues. And there are regular consumers—who don't even see the issues associated with edgelit LCDs.

On another note, I have not found FALD to be the panacea of LCD PQ that some have professed it to be. In fact, I often find it almost as distracting as edgelit, just in a different way.

If you take a critical look at OLED, it is clear that the premium price does not guarantee a consistently superior viewing experience outside of the realm of contrast based on deep blacks. Therefore, pricing matters. IMO, of course.
I've got 3 plasmas, so no dog in the LCD v. OLED fight. We all agree that neither FALD LCD nor OLED (by LG) is yet perfected. None of the plasma faults bother me, except false contouring, which i hate but only occasionally reveals itself. What many of us looking to upgrade to 4k are trying to decide is which is the best for us for for the money it costs. The best might not be based on test patterns and calibration reports, as helpful as they are, but on what we see at home in a movie or game. I had a Mits DLP and rarely saw rainbows, so it was a non-issue, while many others considered it a dealbreaker.

In the early years of this forum, before there were calibrators, either pro or home DIY, posting data, some of us heavily relied on Ken (and Rich Harkness) to give us their in store impressions of sets not yet available in our stores. I have yet to see Ken buy a set or post a favorable review of one where I (or even most pros) disagreed with his opinion (Fujitsu plasma, 8G Kuro, 9G Kuro, Sharp Elite, Sammy F8500 - I didn't miss any, did I Ken?). Nor have I seen him unduly downplay a fault or overemphasize a strength. He identified the cyan issue in the Elites and described when it did and didn't manifest, rather than slanting it to justify his purchase.

I love what I see in OLEDs, despite the crappy BB placement outside Magnolia. I also love the top Sonys. I haven't seen the JS9500, but the 9000 is impressive (again in brightly lit space). If the OLED prices come down enough to be within the ballpark of the best FALDs, I may bite, not because the OLED will be issue-free, but because it will offer more, with less significant cons, then the rivals. If a fault exists in the new LGs and Ken says he can't see it or can only see it in certain infrequent situations, I'm inclined to trust him as a working assumption until I can see it for myself. If I can't see it in a dark setting, then I'll likely assume Ken is right for decision purposes.
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post #1773 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by AB4OLED View Post
Anyone else get this e-mail today. I received this e-mail since I am an OLED Owner( 55EA9800). If you google map this address/place, you'll be surprised by the dump where this so called "First Look" event is being held.

Ok: so who is going to report back with the "low down"? I would like to know if the FLAT OLEDs (like the EF9500 series) will be on display and what is said about pricing/availability. Inquiring minds want to know!
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post #1774 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Stanton View Post
Ok: so who is going to report back with the "low down"? I would like to know if the FLAT OLEDs (like the EF9500 series) will be on display and what is said about pricing/availability. Inquiring minds want to know!
I'm going to the LG OLED event, I'll write it up post it (in this section) including any pricing/availability info. I'm excited to see a flat OLED or two in a (relatively) intimate setting.

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post #1775 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Trackman View Post
I've got 3 plasmas, so no dog in the LCD v. OLED fight. We all agree that neither FALD LCD nor OLED (by LG) is yet perfected. None of the plasma faults bother me, except false contouring, which i hate but only occasionally reveals itself. What many of us looking to upgrade to 4k are trying to decide is which is the best for us for for the money it costs. The best might not be based on test patterns and calibration reports, as helpful as they are, but on what we see at home in a movie or game. I had a Mits DLP and rarely saw rainbows, so it was a non-issue, while many others considered it a dealbreaker.

In the early years of this forum, before there were calibrators, either pro or home DIY, posting data, some of us heavily relied on Ken (and Rich Harkness) to give us their in store impressions of sets not yet available in our stores. I have yet to see Ken buy a set or post a favorable review of one where I (or even most pros) disagreed with his opinion (Fujitsu plasma, 8G Kuro, 9G Kuro, Sharp Elite, Sammy F8500 - I didn't miss any, did I Ken?). Nor have I seen him unduly downplay a fault or overemphasize a strength. He identified the cyan issue in the Elites and described when it did and didn't manifest, rather than slanting it to justify his purchase.

I love what I see in OLEDs, despite the crappy BB placement outside Magnolia. I also love the top Sonys. I haven't seen the JS9500, but the 9000 is impressive (again in brightly lit space). If the OLED prices come down enough to be within the ballpark of the best FALDs, I may bite, not because the OLED will be issue-free, but because it will offer more, with less significant cons, then the rivals. If a fault exists in the new LGs and Ken says he can't see it or can only see it in certain infrequent situations, I'm inclined to trust him as a working assumption until I can see it for myself. If I can't see it in a dark setting, then I'll likely assume Ken is right for decision purposes.
Thanks for the kind words Trackman, and yes, I think you got them all!

As you've stated, I try to put issues in perspective. If I can see them, I'll say so, but, if IMO they're minor, I'll say so too.

I miss Rich.and his objective observations, but he's moved on to FP land.
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post #1776 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I think the comment was intended to be comparing the 77" OLED to the 78" JS9500, not the 88": http://www.crutchfield.com/S-E39qMr1...N78JS9500.html

$15,000 versus $25,000 sounds like about 40% cheaper to me
You will be able to pick up the UN78JS9500 for a lot less than that on the street, either way that is some serious cash.........
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post #1777 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 12:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Trackman View Post
I love what I see in OLEDs, despite the crappy BB placement outside Magnolia. I also love the top Sonys. I haven't seen the JS9500, but the 9000 is impressive (again in brightly lit space). If the OLED prices come down enough to be within the ballpark of the best FALDs, I may bite, not because the OLED will be issue-free, but because it will offer more, with less significant cons, then the rivals. If a fault exists in the new LGs and Ken says he can't see it or can only see it in certain infrequent situations, I'm inclined to trust him as a working assumption until I can see it for myself. If I can't see it in a dark setting, then I'll likely assume Ken is right for decision purposes.
Motion's the other big problem with OLED at the moment. If you go to BestBuy and critically evaluate an OLED, it doesn't matter if it's in the dark Magnolia section or not. You just need some low framerate content with a fast camera pan and no motion blur applied (most film transfers do this purposely because this is a well-understood perceptual problem). Some people are not bothered by judder, other people are driven nuts. On an OLED, judder is visible on even very slow motion, where as it's smeared away on LCD and not an issue on low persistence displays like CRT, plasma or strobed LCD.

You absolutely cannot evaluate how much this problem is going to affect you (you may not even notice it if you're used to LCD) without seeing it in person. It's important to mention, however, because if you read LG's marketing you might be lead to believe that the faster responding pixels somehow automagically improve motion.
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post #1778 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 12:31 PM
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Nope. The issues are still there, regardless of whether you can see them or not.

Ken, I don't think you are just a fan (or a superfan). I think you are more akin to a cheerleader rooting for the home team (OLED). I'm more like a coach trying to point out the mistakes that could keep the home team from winning the game.
IMO you are doing is like the sensationalism found in today's journalism to grab more readers.

Plasmas have a ton of issues but I don't see your old posts focusing on them... Let me guess those issues aren't as bad right? Or didn't require any focus?

Interesting seeing people trying to mark thier place/authority by using sensationalism. I prefer Chads method... Notice an issue then figure out how to correct the quirks or work around them. Just as we have done with the plasmas all of which have had many issues. He uses his technical prowess to gain followers not sensationalism.

The DNR is pretty overstated. It's no worse than how a plasma is a lossy display device. Plasmas do not display exactly what they are fed; there is image data lost when a complex image is dithered. I think the only reason we don't hear more about this is someone hasn't taken the time to pixel peep and show much much high frequency data gets lost... Then of course make it a big issue... Which in reality it's not.

Yes there are issues but the sky isn't falling... A great start for OLED IMO.
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post #1779 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 12:42 PM
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IMO you are doing is like the sensationalism found in today's journalism to grab more readers.

Plasmas have a ton of issues but I don't see your old posts focusing on them... Let me guess those issues aren't as bad right? Or didn't require any focus?

Interesting seeing people trying to mark thier place/authority by using sensationalism. I prefer Chads method... Notice an issue then figure out how to correct the quirks or work around them. Just as we have done with the plasmas all of which have had many issues. He uses his technical prowess to gain followers not sensationalism.

The DNR is pretty overstated. It's no worse than how a plasma is a lossy display device. Plasmas do not display exactly what they are fed; there is image data lost when a complex image is dithered. I think the only reason we don't hear more about this is someone hasn't taken the time to pixel peep and show much much high frequency data gets lost... Then of course make it a big issue... Which in reality it's not.
Chad can work around some OLED problems I am sure, but the issues I point out are agreed upon and visible to Dewayne Davis, Kevin Miller, and David Mackenzie. I am not being sensational at all. More power to Chad for working through the issues. And cheers to Ken Ross for not being bothered by issues that are quite plainly obvious to me. But I am not being sensational, I'm just reporting what I've seen several times, on several different OLEDs.

As for plasmas, except for a very few they are far from perfect. The few reference plasmas have demonstrably superior performance in numerous PQ parameters vs. the current crop of OLEDs. That is why the F8500 tied with the EC93000 at the VE shootout—the OLED had better black levels but the plasma did better in other categories like motion. And videwing angles, and screen uniformity, and color accuracy, and grayscale accuracy.

All of that is true, and I am in no way trying to be sensational about it.

I ran into another OLED just a few days ago at an event in NYC. I saw some of the same issues on a 65-incher that I saw on the 1080p 55-incher at the VE shootout and the 77-incher I wrote about. And FWIW LCDs have even bigger issues than OLED because the problems with current OLEDs can be fixed. There's no way you can fix the issues with deep blacks on LCDs.
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Plasmas have a ton of issues but I don't see your old posts focusing on them... Let me guess those issues aren't as bad right? Or didn't require any focus?
Plasma has a whole lot of issues on its own, but at 1/5 the price nobody criticizes them too heavily and you can usually get an improvement in said issues by stepping up a model. You used to get an improvement in grayscale tracking, black level, etc. proportional to the difference in price between a low-end and high-end plasma. That sort of thing doesn't exist in OLED, you get the same performance on every price point at the moment - you can't spend your way into a higher performing display class if the issues are noticeable for you

The best you can do is point out that the issues do exist, so that someone deciding whether to pull the trigger does not blindly follow the hype and believe that OLED does everything better or even as good as existing display technology.
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post #1781 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 12:49 PM
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Yes there are issues but the sky isn't falling... A great start for OLED IMO.
I consider that accurate and never said otherwise About the only sensationalism I see is occasional overstatement of the severity of my criticism of OLED.

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post #1782 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 12:50 PM
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And in the most important PQ parameter, OLED trumps all plasmas.

How many times are we going to do this?

I find it interesting that you love to dwell on OLED's shortcomings (as you see it), but other displays, not so much, aside from a quick passing generalization.

As Spock would say "Fascinating".

The bottom line is that virtually all professional reviews call the LG OLEDs the best displays ever. Are they perfect? No. No display is. Do they present a better overall picture than any others? Yes.

This is getting quite boring.
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And in the most important PQ parameter, OLED trumps all plasmas.
Absolutely subjective. Motion is the most important picture quality parameter as far as I'm concerned. Great contrast only goes so far if you can only tolerate static images.
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post #1784 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 12:57 PM
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^so I take it you will/do enjoy high frame rate motion?
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post #1785 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
Motion's the other big problem with OLED at the moment. If you go to BestBuy and critically evaluate an OLED, it doesn't matter if it's in the dark Magnolia section or not. You just need some low framerate content with a fast camera pan and no motion blur applied (most film transfers do this purposely because this is a well-understood perceptual problem). Some people are not bothered by judder, other people are driven nuts. On an OLED, judder is visible on even very slow motion, where as it's smeared away on LCD and not an issue on low persistence displays like CRT, plasma or strobed LCD.

You absolutely cannot evaluate how much this problem is going to affect you (you may not even notice it if you're used to LCD) without seeing it in person. It's important to mention, however, because if you read LG's marketing you might be lead to believe that the faster responding pixels somehow automagically improve motion.
I can see normal judder on a plasma set to display at 60 with 24 fps content but it's not a huge issue for me. Whether LG's way of dealing with it is worse or not, I don't know yet.

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post #1786 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 01:00 PM
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And in the most important PQ parameter, OLED trumps all plasmas.

How many times are we going to do this?

I find it interesting that you love to dwell on OLED's shortcomings (as you see it), but other displays, not so much, aside from a quick passing generalization.

As Spock would say "Fascinating".

The bottom line is that virtually all professional reviews call the LG OLEDs the best displays ever. Are they perfect? No. No display is. Do they present a better overall picture than any others? Yes.

This is getting quite boring.
- In car terms, that's a bit like giving up a bit of handling and cornering ability for faster acceleration and a higher top speed. Plus, it's not as if reference plasma blacks are simply unacceptable.

- I'm flattered you read everything I write.

- True, but not unconditionally so.

- You know you love it.

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post #1787 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 01:11 PM
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Absolutely subjective. Motion is the most important picture quality parameter as far as I'm concerned. Great contrast only goes so far if you can only tolerate static images.
Sorry, that's incorrect. Every video professional, up to and including Joe Kane, has always said blacks are the most important aspect of PQ.

However in this world of revisionist history, it wouldn't surprise me to see some claim this is no longer the case...and Kaldaien, this is not directed at you.
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post #1788 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 01:15 PM
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Sorry, that's incorrect. Every video professional, up to and including Joe Kane, has always said blacks are the most important aspect of PQ.

However in this world of revisionist history, it wouldn't surprise me to see some claim this is no longer the case...and Kaldaien, this is not directed at you.
Yes, that's pretty much true... but not if it is achieved at the expense of other PQ parameters. You've turned a conditional statement into an absolute when the truth is more nuanced. I know this to be the case because I've recently discussed this topic with a number of video pros.

Plus there's the law of diminishing returns. With good—but not infinite—black levels, some would argue that screen size and properly-rendered motion combine to trump ultimate black levels, hence the dedicated home theater that uses front projection.

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post #1789 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 01:18 PM
 
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^so I take it you will/do enjoy high frame rate motion?
Higher framerate is better on these TVs, but sample-and-hold creates unbelievably distracting judder at any framerate if motion is fast enough. The threshold for visible judder is much smaller on OLED than LCD. There is some content I just cannot watch on my EG9600 at all, even with the artificial motion smoothing (which I hate) turned on to try and alleviate.

Obviously, a TV where you cannot stand to watch something at all is going to score very low (0) on picture quality evaluation. Fortunately, only a handful of content is completely unwatchable. The rest I can grit my teeth and tolerate.
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post #1790 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 01:20 PM
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- In car terms, that's a bit like giving up a bit of handling and cornering ability for faster acceleration and a higher top speed. Plus, it's not as if reference plasma blacks are simply unacceptable.
Nobody said it was, nor did I imply it. Strawman argument.
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- True, but not unconditionally so.
Pretty weak Mark, pretty weak. Few things in life are 'unconditional'.
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You know you love it.
Actually no, I don't. But you surely seem to love the endless repetition of OLEDs flaws as you see it.

I've had enough, and I suspect I'm not alone.
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post #1791 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 01:39 PM
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Yes, that's pretty much true... but not if it is achieved at the expense of other PQ parameters. You've turned a conditional statement into an absolute when the truth is more nuanced. I know this to be the case because I've recently discussed this topic with a number of video pros.

Plus there's the law of diminishing returns. With good—but not infinite—black levels, some would argue that screen size and properly-rendered motion combine to trump ultimate black levels, hence the dedicated home theater that uses front projection.
Once again, a classic embellishment. Reading your response you'd think that OLED could do nothing other than produce the best black levels. Everything else is terrible. That's not true and repeating it 100 times won't make it so.

I've seen these displays and despite what you imply, I DO recognize superb PQ and I am objective. Read Trackman's post...as painful as that might be for you. I've called it as I've seen it for more years here than most and my observations have usually been borne out over time by the reviews that are eventually published.

Look Maek, it's clear, you don't like LG OLED despite what you imply. That's fine, don't buy one. Compared to my F8500, these OLEDs trounce it.

But please don't make it seem when I and professional reviewers STRONGLY disagree with you, it's us that are crazy or it's us that have somehow missed the 'truth'.

You can have the last word as I'm sure you will.
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You realize you're both actually arguing in favor of the same team, I hope? You're just looking at it from very different perspectives, long-term vs. single season performance.
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post #1793 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 01:57 PM
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@Kaldaien : With all the negative things you have to say about the EG9600, one could get the impresison that would return it, but that doesn't seem to be the case and you plan to keep it, right? Is that because you want a TV that does 4K, which is not possible on a Plasma? What do you think about the Samsung JS9500?

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post #1794 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 01:58 PM
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Higher framerate is better on these TVs, but sample-and-hold creates unbelievably distracting judder at any framerate if motion is fast enough. The threshold for visible judder is much smaller on OLED than LCD.

[ … ]

Obviously, a TV where you cannot stand to watch something at all is going to score very low (0) on picture quality evaluation. Fortunately, only a handful of content is completely unwatchable. The rest I can grit my teeth and tolerate.
Given you've just stated OLED is painful to watch and LCD is only slightly better, are there any technologies that work for you?

I find myself having to make a best case decision between OLED and the Sony X950B and am torn between glowing credits and motion judder; edge lit is out of consideration because flashlighting is worse than glowing highlights.
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post #1795 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 02:04 PM
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Given you've just stated OLED is painful to watch and LCD is only slightly better, are there any technologies that work for you?

I find myself having to make a best case decision between OLED and the Sony X950B and am torn between glowing credits and motion judder; edge lit is out of consideration because flashlighting is worse than glowing highlights.
This is the moment where I tip my hand. I saw those TVs as part of a comparison with a JS9500 just a few days ago. I was in a room full of my peers including many well-known reviewers and some well-known pro calibrators on top of that. The OLED is the way to go, despite its demonstrable flaws that everyone there agreed were visible in real content. And yes, there was a discussion about whether consumers would be more forgiving of the OLEDs flaws than the LCDs flaws. With the lights off, the answer is yes.

I saw motion resolution tests and the 65" OLED was no worse, and I can say the same with motion. For dark room viewing I'd deal with the OLEDs issues rather than have to sit through FALD blobs, which are almost as bad as flashlighting. The motion issue was not a deciding factor, and in the end IMO the OLED was preferable when viewed in a dark room.
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If only OLED had no significant issues, but alas at present there are PQ issues that do not show up specs. Sure, there are some superfans of the tech who are seemingly unable to spot unwanted processing, inaccurate color tracking, black crush, and screen uniformity issues. And there are regular consumers—who don't even see the issues associated with edgelit LCDs.

On another note, I have not found FALD to be the panacea of LCD PQ that some have professed it to be. In fact, I often find it almost as distracting as edgelit, just in a different way.

If you take a critical look at OLED, it is clear that the premium price does not guarantee a consistently superior viewing experience outside of the realm of contrast based on deep blacks. Therefore, pricing matters. IMO, of course.
You calling certain people "fanboys" of OLED given your overwhelmingly subtle, and not so subtle LCD bias, even when comparing LCDs against such displays as the Kuros and now the OLED tech, is so hypocritical. It makes me essentially question anything you write re: a review of anything that doesn't have LCD in its title.
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post #1797 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 02:22 PM
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I saw motion resolution tests and the 65" OLED was no worse, and I can say the same with motion. For dark room viewing I'd deal with the OLEDs issues rather than have to sit through FALD blobs, which are almost as bad as flashlighting. The motion issue was not a deciding factor, and in the end IMO the OLED was preferable when viewed in a dark room.
Thanks, that helps quite a bit.
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post #1798 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 02:25 PM
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You calling certain people "fanboys" of OLED given your overwhelmingly subtle, and not so subtle LCD bias, even when comparing LCDs against such displays as the Kuros and now the OLED tech, is so hypocritical. It makes me essentially question anything you write re: a review of anything that doesn't have LCD in its title.
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- I did not use the term fanboy.

- I own and watch a plasma, not an LCD. When the lights are out, I like OLEDS the way they are today more than LCDs. Where's the bias?

- It's not like I have a ton of choices. Most TVs available for review are LCDs. None are plasmas. Furthermore, I have not yet reviewed an OLED; who knows, maybe I'll find workarounds to some of the issues—that takes time.

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Given you've just stated OLED is painful to watch and LCD is only slightly better, are there any technologies that work for you?

I find myself having to make a best case decision between OLED and the Sony X950B and am torn between glowing credits and motion judder; edge lit is out of consideration because flashlighting is worse than glowing highlights.
Well, you can totally fix the motion problem in probably 99% of content if you don't mind artificial motion smoothing. That's not something you can generally do with LCD's flaws. No amount of additional processing is going to fix halos from a local dimming backlight. If it's down to OLED vs. LCD, there's no contest.

My problem is that I have a house full of plasma and CRT displays. The second I change rooms, I am reminded that motion's handled much better by all of the other TVs I own :-\ If you are used to LCD and/or only intend to watch a single TV for the next n-many years, it's probably not going to bother you.
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post #1800 of 1874 Old 04-05-2015, 04:12 PM
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Given you've just stated OLED is painful to watch and LCD is only slightly better, are there any technologies that work for you?

I find myself having to make a best case decision between OLED and the Sony X950B and am torn between glowing credits and motion judder; edge lit is out of consideration because flashlighting is worse than glowing highlights.
If you have access to a BB, why not take a movie your familiar with and see if they'll let you play it on the LG? That was you can see if the motion judder bothers you.

You can use some of the motion settings that have worked for some people.
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