My observations of the 77" OLED - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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My observations of the 77" OLED

I had an opportunity to visit VE yesterday, with a friend, to view the 77" LG OLED 'up close & personal'. My intent was to better see the capabilities and any potential flaws of this display than I was able to see at CES.

With the always great hospitality of Robert & Wendy, I was able to plug in my 4K projects that I had shot with my 4K cameras, as well as a Blu-ray disc I was very familiar with.

Although I had seen some of my own 4K material on other 4K displays, I had never seen them on a UHD LG OLED. My projects were on a portable USB drive that Wendy plugged into one of the USB 2 inputs. Accessing the material via the menu was very easy as Wendy negotiated the LG's menu system.

Observations:

Viewing environment- Robert had the 77" OLED in his home theater area at the rear of the store. This area is totally darkened, with curtains and no exterior windows. This beautifully simulated my viewing environment with the lights out at night. We were sitting approximately 10-11' from the screen.

Display adjustments- The display had approximately 150 hours on it and was in the Expert 1 mode. There were no adjustments made beyond that. It was simply in an out-of-the-box condition in Expert 1.

Overall assessment- My personal 4K material looked, in one word, superb. I could also use the phrase 'jaw-dropping' or other effusive adjectives, and they'd all be true. Everyone in the room, my friend, Robert, Wendy and a couple of shoppers, just stood there 'oohing & ahhing'. Really.

The first video we put on was an edited video I shot in Vegas during CES. The opening night scenes of Vegas were absolutely spectacular with the jet black skies and gorgeous Vegas lighting. They looked far better than I had ever seen them on my F8500 plasma (using an HD version of this same project). The overall impact of the extended CR, 4K material, absolute blacks of OLED and the sheer size of the 77" screen, simply cannot be understated. It was just an unparalleled viewing experience.

This same impact extended to day scenes and again, the enhanced CR together with the 4K resolution, gave a sense of depth I had never seen with this material. I should also note there were no motion issues with these videos. More on this later.

Black levels- No news here, blacks were black. There were none of the 'dark gray' you see on almost all other displays, blacks were simply pure black, no light, zero. This was the first time I had seen the impact of this in a totally darkened environment...and it was glorious, no other words to describe it.

Shadow detail- This is a tough one to assess. Without an A/B of another display that we know has no issues with shadow detail, it's almost impossible to say whether or not there was any crushing of shadow detail. I noted some of the night scenes during TDK and I just went down to my ISF calibrated F8500 to play those same scenes. I can't say I saw any less detail in shadows on the LG than I just did on my plasma. But without having the two side by side, I can't be 100%. Either way, if there was any crushing, I'd say it was minor.

Screen uniformity- This was something that took me by surprise. I've seen many shots of owners calling up the LG menu on the left side of the screen. I've always seen some color discontinuities in these. They varied from significant to fairly minor. On the 77", the menu was pure white from top to bottom and left to right. Similarly, a full white field was as even as I have ever seen it on any display I've ever owned. It was probably on a par with my plasma. More on screen uniformity issues below.

Motion- As I mentioned above, there were no motion issues with video. The video I shot was in 4K @30fps . To produce the smooth motion I saw on the LG with 30fps material, would generally indicate that some kind of motion processing was going on. To achieve this same effect on my plasma, I need to put it in 'smooth', which engages a frame rate doubler. Thus, 30fps take on a look much like 60fps, with minimal artifacts. However, as I mentioned, to achieve this effect there is processing going on, so how would it look with film?

We put on TDK and there was clearly some SOE visible. I was a bit pressed for time, so we didn't play with the motion settings to minimize this. Robert is having this display calibrated, so I'd plan to go back at some later date to see how the motion looks at that point.

Upconversion- Watching the TDK showed how effective the upconversion to UHD resolution is on the LG. It looked surprisingly close to some of the softer 4K material we watched on the Sony 4K media server. I won't tell you it had the same clarity and detail as the 4K I shot with my 4K cameras, but it was truly excellent.

To me this puts to rest the many comments I read on various threads that knock LG for 'processing' when I'd bet that almost none of these people have actually seen LG's processing and upconversion at work. I didn't see any significant difference between the look of this movie on the LG and the UHD Sonys that I've seen.

Negatives- Well, I'd love to say the display was flawless, but it isn't. The issue of near black is still present on the 77". As you approach near black, say 10%, we saw a line down the middle of the screen, somewhat lighter than the surrounding area. We didn't see this until near the end of our viewing session. I didn't see it at all with any of my material or the 4K demo material. I saw none of it with any of the night scenes in my material.

In fact, at first I thought it was source-related, but Robert doubted that (he does not cover up issues as so many in this business do). At the very beginning of TDK, as the FBI warning begins to pop up prior the beginning of the actual movie, we saw the line. During the movie, I never noticed it regardless of the scene, but my friend thought he saw a fleeting glimpse of it during one scene, but he wasn't sure. As he said, you become so fixated at looking for it, had he not been, he was certain he would never have questioned it.

Bottom line- Even if I knew I'd see that line on a very occasional basis with actual content, the overall viewing experience on this display is like none other I've ever seen. The impact is simply unmatched and although I wish there was no issue with near black artifacts, I'd still say the pluses so outweigh the negatives, that this would never deter me from purchasing one.

Rest assured, Robert is still knocking on LG's door to get this issue resolved. Many thanks to Robert & Wendy for their hospitality!
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post #2 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 09:21 AM
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I've been wondering when you were going to see this set; thanks for posting your observations. I'm holding out for a 65EF9500 (hopefully) this summer.

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post #3 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 11:13 AM
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I'm glad the TV is awesome. Unfortunately, it's way out of my price range. Maybe in 5 or so years a 77" OLED will be affordable for the masses.
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post #4 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 01:25 PM
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Ken,

Thanks for the review.

Curious how you would compare the set to your Sharp elite (if you still have it). I've had my elite for 4 years now. The possibility of an extra 7", potentially deeper blacks, and a lack of pulsing is beginning to give me an itch.
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post #5 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Magilla, it's really noticeably better. As good as the black levels are, the impact of the OLED experience, increased size and UHD resolution, are in a different league than my 60" Elite (that I still have).

I think you'd still see a huge difference between the 77 & your 70" Elite. For me it's a somewhat bigger jump, but going to OLED from even a state-of-the-art LCD, is quite significant IMO.
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post #6 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Hey Magilla, it's really noticeably better. As good as the black levels are, the impact of the OLED experience, increased size and UHD resolution, are in a different league than my 60" Elite (that I still have).

I think you'd still see a huge difference between the 77 & your 70" Elite. For me it's a somewhat bigger jump, but going to OLED from even a state-of-the-art LCD, is quite significant IMO.
Thanks Ken. My wife says "I hate you" in advance.
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post #7 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 02:40 PM
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Thank you for taking the time to do this at Robert's place & write this up. I appreciate it. It just gets me all the more anxious to own one of these.
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post #8 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 02:54 PM
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Ken, the set you reviewed was it HDR capable or are those OLED's with HDR & higher NIT's only coming out on the updated versions late 2015 into 2016? Does LG list the current NITs on the set you seen? Great review btw I can see a lot of time and forethought went into it.

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post #9 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 02:57 PM
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Thanks for such a thorough and clearly presented firsthand account of the 77 incher, Ken.

Your review is a bittersweet affirmation of why so many of us have been waiting, and continue to wait, so long to possess one of these. Personally, I'm almost salivating at the thought.

Here's hoping the coming months offer more hope of these arriving at more affordable prices, and that the 2015 range continue to offer refinements and improvements.

As it is, I could very happily live with the reality you're describing.

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post #10 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by timc1475 View Post
Ken, the set you reviewed was it HDR capable or are those OLED's with HDR & higher NIT's only coming out on the updated versions late 2015 into 2016? Does LG list the current NITs on the set you seen? Great review btw I can see a lot of time and forethought went into it.
Timc, I don't know the answer to that, but I'll see if I can find out. I don't know how bright the 77" gets, but subjectively it seemed very bright, even in the Expert 1 setting and brighter than my F8500 plasma.

Of course some wouldn't be surprised by that given that it's a plasma, but the F8500 was the brightest plasma ever produced, and significantly brighter than any other plasma.
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post #11 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 04:11 PM
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I'm sold... now, it's just a matter of waiting for the price to drop to where mere mortals can purchase it. Hopefully, LG will survive long enough for this to happen.
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post #12 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Amen tezster!
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post #13 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 05:22 PM
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So ken would you say this set does not need to be calibrated if kept in the expert 1 mode?

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post #14 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 05:29 PM
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Ken...nice review, thanks.

Forgive me for putting you on the spot, but........................................

................is it worth TWENTY-FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS?
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post #15 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 05:34 PM
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This is the "2013-2014" panel, correct? I know the 2015 models upgrade to WebOs 2.0 and up the processors, but do we know if there are any improvements in the panels? I believe the only thing I've read so far is they have a new anti glare coating.
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post #16 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mattg3 View Post
So ken would you say this set does not need to be calibrated if kept in the expert 1 mode?
Matt, I'd be perfectly happy with what I saw, sans the SOE.

But with that said, I wouldn't spend that money without a professional ISF calibration. That's the only way I know I'm getting everything the display has to offer. I have that done on all my displays.

BTW, I know some OLED owners prefer Expert 2. If I had more time there, I would have tried that along with some altered motion settings.
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post #17 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 5150zx View Post
Ken...nice review, thanks.

Forgive me for putting you on the spot, but........................................

................is it worth TWENTY-FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS?
Here's the admittedly evasive answer: If you have the money, yes. If you don't, no.

To be perfectly objective 5150, no, no display is truly worth that much, but damn, it is one utterly gorgeous display.

Now, comparatively speaking, it most definitely comes closer to being worth the 25Gs of any other display priced at 25Gs. When thinking of the Sony 84" XBR priced the same, I'd lose the 7" and gladly take the LG at the same price.
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post #18 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post
This is the "2013-2014" panel, correct? I know the 2015 models upgrade to WebOs 2.0 and up the processors, but do we know if there are any improvements in the panels? I believe the only thing I've read so far is they have a new anti glare coating.
No, this is a 2014-2015 panel. There were no UHD OLEDs even discussed in 2013.

We don't know for sure if any changes were made in this panel from the originally scheduled, late 2014 release date, and its early 2015 appearance.

The only differences I'm aware of between the current 77" & 65" panel vs. the not yet released 2015 units, is WebOS2 and the screen coating.

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post #19 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 07:37 PM
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Not to cast aspersions but Ken, it seems like if I had an arrangement to sit down with this TV it would have been at the top of my awesome thing to do list. Unless it wasn't my choice and totally out of my control, not having time to delve into it would have not even entered the equation. They would have had to drag me away screaming and kicking. I'm sure that is the case here. Great information and much appreciated as always.
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Not to cast aspersions but Ken, it seems like if I had an arrangement to sit down with this TV it would have been at the top of my awesome thing to do list. Unless it wasn't my choice and totally out of my control, not having time to delve into it would have not even entered the equation. They would have had to drag me away screaming and kicking. I'm sure that is the case here. Great information and much appreciated as always.
Andy, I really had other things to attend to. With that said, I will be going back since I never planned on just seeing and playing with it once.

I saw what I wanted to see on this go-around. My real objectives here were to see how it handled my personal 4K material and to see how it performed with HD>UHD up-conversion.

For those objectives, mission accomplished.
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post #21 of 61 Old 02-19-2015, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to add a couple of points I forgot to include in my review.

I saw absolutely no darkening on the edges of the screen with any content. We had no test patterns up, so I can't comment on that, but I'm really only interested in issues that manifest themselves during actual content.

I also saw no IR in any of the material we watched including any light to dark transitions. I never once saw a hint of this.
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post #22 of 61 Old 02-20-2015, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
We had no test patterns up, so I can't comment on that, but I'm really only interested in issues that manifest themselves during actual content.
Problem is what we see at the dealer's showroom even if we were there for a few hours isn't the same as when you are at home with the same display over a few days/weeks playing content that you're familiar with. I do think that using test patterns is a quick way to find problems that may take you a while to pick up on otherwise.

It also needs to be calibrated before making any assessments. An example is if correctly setting black level then crushes the shades just before black. How are you going to know that without the display being calibrated?
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post #23 of 61 Old 02-20-2015, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Matt, I'd be perfectly happy with what I saw, sans the SOE.

But with that said, I wouldn't spend that money without a professional ISF calibration. That's the only way I know I'm getting everything the display has to offer. I have that done on all my displays.

BTW, I know some OLED owners prefer Expert 2. If I had more time there, I would have tried that along with some altered motion settings.
Thanks Ken and I agree totally.Im actually looking at the 65 flat model as my future purchase with a D-Nice calibration from Value Electronics.Still a little concerned about upconversion of regular dvd but I have faith oppo will come out with a 4K model and a chip to take care of that like they did with 1080P.

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post #24 of 61 Old 02-20-2015, 04:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Problem is what we see at the dealer's showroom even if we were there for a few hours isn't the same as when you are at home with the same display over a few days/weeks playing content that you're familiar with. I do think that using test patterns is a quick way to find problems that may take you a while to pick up on otherwise.

It also needs to be calibrated before making any assessments. An example is if correctly setting black level then crushes the shades just before black. How are you going to know that without the display being calibrated?
Regarding calibration, that might be true Jim, but similarly the uncalibrated picture I saw would likely be better once calibrated. That's one of the reasons I mentioned it was in an uncalibrated state.

Although I agree that test patterns can reveal issues we don't pick up at the showroom, it is also true that certain issues seen on those patterns may rarely/never be seen with content.
Owner's reviews and professional reviews point that out frequently, not just with OLED, but with other techs too.

If you spend a few hours at a showroom, watching a variety of content and never or rarely see an issue, I do think it's a pretty good indicator of what you're likely to see at home. Foolproof no, but a reasonably good indicator.

Additionally, if the dealer allows, you can bring content that's more likely to reveal issues you know exist with a given tech. However I don't think many dealers will allow you to set up signal generators at their stores.

Jim, the bottom line is we know no display is perfect and OLED is no exception. I already saw that with the near black, full field issue I observed. Might there also be some black crush? Absolutely. However with that said, IMO the picture I ovserved was without a doubt the finest picture I have ever seen...warts and all.
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post #25 of 61 Old 02-20-2015, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattg3 View Post
Thanks Ken and I agree totally.Im actually looking at the 65 flat model as my future purchase with a D-Nice calibration from Value Electronics.Still a little concerned about upconversion of regular dvd but I have faith oppo will come out with a 4K model and a chip to take care of that like they did with 1080P.
Matt, Ray0414 in the LCD threads called Oppo to ask them this and they said 2016/2017 for the 4K Oppo...
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post #26 of 61 Old 02-20-2015, 08:26 AM
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I had the opportunity to take a long look at this set at VE as well yesterday with imagic. Mark did a 2 point grey scale calibration. I agree with Ken about what we saw yesterday. The PQ was superb. While I saw some discoloration around the very edges of the set, it was really very feint and never showed on real world content and can probably be removed via CMS. However, we didn't have time for that as we were off to see Tierney Sutton. Colors were sensational. Mark was able to get gamma at 2.4. This is the best looking OLED I have seen and by a country mile. The only issues we were able to see was the near black performance and motion judder with panning. Looking at The Dark Knight blu-ray, I would think that there may be some minor crushing of the blacks too. But very minor. I saw the line down the center of the screen that Ken did and could see it very fleetingly with come content. I mean very fleetingly and rarely with content. I am not sure what is causing it but I wouldn't label it a deal breaker by any means. We also could not see the pixel grid unless you were inches from the screen. Robert has an external processor on hand which will be utilized soon to see if the set can look even better bypassing some of LG's internal processing. Hopefully LG will make this screen size available in a flat version in 2016 at a real world price. I still won't buy one of these babies at its current price, flat or curved. However, if the flat 65" performs at the level of the set we saw yesterday, it would be very tempting. I would still want webOS 2.0, 800 nits, more 18 enabled inputs accept one and the newer screen coating. All in all I was very, very impressed with what I saw from this set. Hopefully, the QC that went into getting this set out the door to VE will be used down the entire OLED line. If so, there will be a ton of happy videophiles out there, me included. Looks like 2016 will be the year for me after all. Very impressive.
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Louder is NOT better!

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post #27 of 61 Old 02-20-2015, 08:28 AM
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BTW, this set looked much better after Mark did his brief calibration. I am sure it will look much better after a full calibration is performed. Getting this set calibrated is a non brainer and a must as far as I am concerned.

Louder is NOT better!
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post #28 of 61 Old 02-20-2015, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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JWhip, I'm breaking out the party hats, we actually largely agree on what we both saw!

I do have a question for either you or Mark. Do you know what motion settings were used during the calibration?
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post #29 of 61 Old 02-20-2015, 09:06 AM
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I don't really recall. Maybe Mark can chime in. I do know that the set will be worked on fully next week. I am sure Mark will cover that issue when he posts a full report on that full calibration. I hope to attend.

Louder is NOT better!
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post #30 of 61 Old 02-20-2015, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Negatives- Well, I'd love to say the display was flawless, but it isn't. The issue of near black is still present on the 77". As you approach near black, say 10%, we saw a line down the middle of the screen, somewhat lighter than the surrounding area. We didn't see this until near the end of our viewing session. I didn't see it at all with any of my material or the 4K demo material. I saw none of it with any of the night scenes in my material.
As an owner I would like to say that this is by far the best TV I have ever owned. I can also confirm that during normal viewing I never see that black line.

The only time I can see it is when the playstation 4 does an update or when i have a black loading screen. Then the bar is clearly visible but when the content start running I cannot see it no matter how hard I try.

As far as the motion, it far surpasses my previous TVUN65HU8700F. I am only 10-15 hours in with this TV and I have not calibrated it yet but as of right now I am very happy with it. I am hoping that the black bars will start going away otherwise I will return it for the same model. Hopefully the next one will be better.

All in all I love my 65ec9700.

Reciever: DENON AVR-X7200WA using 7.2.4 with two center speakers (one behind the screen and one below it).
Amplifier: Emotiva XPA-5 Gen1
Projector: Xiaomi UST Laser Projector 4k (2019 edition).
My current setup: https://imgur.com/gallery/RnRc98a
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