LG 77EG9700 UHD OLEDâ??An Extended Critical Look - Page 30 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #871 of 1024 Old 03-26-2015, 09:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It's not HDR. The source was HDR but once you try and show that tonal range on an 8-bit display, it's a tone-mapped image... not HDR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_mapping
Not exactly, but that's using a definition of HDR that we can argue about later. (Printing/camera/etc.).

Does the result look the same, but just with fewer levels in the gradients?
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post #872 of 1024 Old 03-26-2015, 10:03 AM
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You tried WAY harder than most would bother. After this thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...0u-series.html it really isn't a surprise that you weren't going to manage it.
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post #873 of 1024 Old 03-26-2015, 11:57 AM
 
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Anyone measure input lag on this model?
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post #874 of 1024 Old 03-26-2015, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxo View Post
Could you elaborate on that, please?

I was under the impression that external content would invariably pass through the TV's colour management system, whether provided via a LUT or more directly from a source device (e.g., BDP). That is, there is no way of bypassing or disabling the CMS as a whole, although certain TV menu control values might disable certain functional elements of it.

An interesting possibility is that certain menu values might create optimal a conditions under which to use external compensation with a LUT. Unfortunately, given a lack of a deep understanding of how LG's CMS works, we are unlikely to be able to identify those conditions.
It is simple, just like a normal 1D calibration. First you set your pre calibration, this is done using the internal controls of the display.
Then you measure a set of color triplet patches (imo at-least 2500 patches) that are displayed on the TV/CMS screen you are going to use the 3DLUT for, this is called profiling. Once you have completed the profile you use the profile to create a 3DLUT, depending on the external processor and software you are using can create 65000 reference color points.
So like a normal 1D calibration taking screen patch measurements of RGBCMY using 100% stimulus level (or whatever level works best for all 6 points), you are now using many more different reference color point patches (windows or full screen) at many more stimulus levels, all the time taking readings from how the display's CMS is displaying the color patches.

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Originally Posted by fluxo View Post
Speaking as a scientist for a moment - or rather an ageing senile member of the species - I am somewhat struck by the absence here of something that is commonplace in the sciences, and that is a mathematical model. When one is trying to understand some phenomenon, the first step is often to make observations and take measurements and the second to plot graphs etc. What is missing here is the third step and that is the mathematical model. If we had such a model of LG's CMS implementation, then it is just possible we might be able to, e.g., set up a set of equations and solve for an optimal solution. Take a handful of readings, plug them into the model and then find a menu control set solution - it's not impossible to imagine. That might sound far-fetched, implausible and even alien here, because it is an approach that is not found within the standard calibration workflows. But it is the type of approach that is very common in the sciences and engineering.
This is exactly what profiling and creating a 3DLUT does, your 1st, 2nd and 3rd step.
Understanding that these displays have millions of different colors, in most cases just setting a few correction color points
only give the CMS very limited reference points, so in theory the more reference color point for the CMS the more the CMS has to work with.

A owner of a LG OLED is learning how to make a profile and 3DLUT using a HTPC, I posted a few days ago about this and a link. Here is a link for that thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post32829545
In the last few pages you will see grafts and charts of how this is working for his LG OLED. The only two draw backs are he is just using a D3 color meter and very good software, but the latest version is in the beta stage. The user is "Pepelegal".

In a nut shell, the LG OLED is doing very nicely when the 3DLUT is used. The only problem and its not that big of a problem is Blue being slightly under saturated . But keep in mind the DIY is using just a D3 color meter and learning a new beta software. So Blue may not be under saturated.

ss

You may want to click on this link. http://argyllcms.com/index.html

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post #875 of 1024 Old 03-26-2015, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by RoyMacDonald View Post
Maybe the US got most of the good panels? Hopefully we'll do better with the quality of the new 4K OLEDs.
No. Unfortunately these LG OLEDs are a mixed bag. There are more 'bad' ones than there are good ones. All of them have poor color that no one can fix. I will say that some have better color than others but it really is a crap shoot.
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post #876 of 1024 Old 03-26-2015, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
No. Unfortunately these LG OLEDs are a mixed bag. There are more 'bad' ones than there are good ones. All of them have poor color that no one can fix. I will say that some have better color than others but it really is a crap shoot.

Thanks DNICE, can u still calibrate my Kuro elite pro151 and if adding Darblet on the way after AVR 5200 is advisable. Shall I turn off 4K upscale in my Avr unless it can sense it it self?


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post #877 of 1024 Old 03-26-2015, 09:50 PM
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Darblet is never advisable.
I WANT MORE and sillysally like this.

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post #878 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 01:35 AM
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Darblet is never advisable.

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post #879 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 07:15 AM
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@imagic -You had to go yesterday before responding to tgm1024's exercise, but I'm just curious what your response would be: "Not exactly, but that's using a definition of HDR that we can argue about later. (Printing/camera/etc.).

Does the result look the same, but just with fewer levels in the gradients?"


I thought that discussion was interesting.
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post #880 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
@imagic -You had to go yesterday before responding to tgm1024's exercise, but I'm just curious what your response would be: "Not exactly, but that's using a definition of HDR that we can argue about later. (Printing/camera/etc.).

Does the result look the same, but just with fewer levels in the gradients?"


I thought that discussion was interesting.
It is interesting. I will write an article about HDR and we can discuss it in depth. Give me a week or two. HDR (all flavors) is one of my favorite topics. I'm open to learning more about how its implemented with regard to TVs.

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post #881 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post
Darblet is never advisable.
It may 'never be advisable' within most of the calibrator crowd, but it's gotten excellent reviews and many are enjoying it. Further, Oppo, a highly respected company, found it good enough to incorporate it in two of their products.

So I think the comment that it's 'never advisable' conjures up an image (no pun intended) that's a bit too all encompassing.
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post #882 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 07:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It is interesting. I will write an article about HDR and we can discuss it in depth. Give me a week or two. HDR (all flavors) is one of my favorite topics. I'm open to learning more about how its implemented with regard to TVs.
The final question hanging in midair is there to decouple this notion of bitdepth from HDR. The critical notion that has to be established is that extra bits only gain you levels (values); they say nothing about what those levels (particularly the max and min values) can physically produce in a display. It sounds like you see what I'm saying now(?)
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post #883 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
The final question hanging in midair is there to decouple this notion of bitdepth from HDR. The critical notion that has to be established is that extra bits only gain you levels (values); they say nothing about what those levels (particularly the max and min values) can physically produce in a display. It sounds like you see what I'm saying now(?)
Yes. With the caveat that posterization is an unacceptable artifact, then what you describe is accurate. A real HDR display needs an expanded contrast range to make the extra range captured at the source look contrasty, but without obvious banding artifacts that would result were 8-bit footage used. 8-bit HDR would be akin to a highly-compressed MP3 played at max volume.

Two or three extra stops of dynamic range, on the right display, makes a huge difference in how deep and 3D-ish images look.

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post #884 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
It may 'never be advisable' within most of the calibrator crowd, but it's gotten excellent reviews and many are enjoying it...
I'm with you on this. A number of tech savvy reviewers who were skeptical on principle before reviewing the unit changed their tune after reviewing. And there are calibrators who do like and use the Darbee unit.
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post #885 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 08:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yes. With the caveat that posterization is an unacceptable artifact, then what you describe is accurate. A real HDR display needs an expanded contrast range to make the extra range captured at the source look contrasty, but without obvious banding artifacts that would result were 8-bit footage used. 8-bit HDR would be akin to a highly-compressed MP3 played at max volume.

Two or three extra stops of dynamic range, on the right display, makes a huge difference in how deep and 3D-ish images look.
No caveat needed. That's part of the discussion from the very beginning. HDR will bennefit from having additional bitdepth, but is not defined by it. The additional bitdepth is there to reduce the distance between neighboring levels that are now effectively further apart than on a non-HDR display.

In any case, do the research you mentioned, and I look forward to your article.
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post #886 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
It may 'never be advisable' within most of the calibrator crowd, but it's gotten excellent reviews and many are enjoying it. Further, Oppo, a highly respected company, found it good enough to incorporate it in two of their products.

So I think the comment that it's 'never advisable' conjures up an image (no pun intended) that's a bit too all encompassing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post
I'm with you on this. A number of tech savvy reviewers who were skeptical on principle before reviewing the unit changed their tune after reviewing. And there are calibrators who do like and use the Darbee unit.
I concur. A quality sharpening algorithm, used judiciously, helps optimize content for a display based on the source, viewing distance, and etc. so used with care a Darbee is not a bad thing. It is a tool.

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post #887 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 09:31 AM
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I have a darblet and it makes the picture look better. Not sure if it was worth the cost. I think I paid around $250 for it.


The only thing I really don't like about it is about once a month it resets to default which is something like 100% vivid. The values can be reset pretty easily using the remote, but the default is for the darblet pct box to be on the screen and it's not easy to navigate through the menu and turn it off. Why would it default to that thing being on? and why isn't there a button on the remote to easily show/hide it?
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post #888 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post
Darblet is never advisable.
Why not? Remember, never is always wrong.

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post #889 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
It may 'never be advisable' within most of the calibrator crowd, but it's gotten excellent reviews and many are enjoying it. Further, Oppo, a highly respected company, found it good enough to incorporate it in two of their products.
Oppo implented it for marketing purposes. In fact, they find the algorythm to be awful.

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post #890 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post
Oppo implented it for marketing purposes. In fact, they find the algorythm to be awful.
Hearsay.

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post #891 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 11:27 AM
 
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Why not? Remember, never is always wrong.
Yeah but always is never right.
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post #892 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 11:28 AM
 
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Oppo implented it for marketing purposes. In fact, they find the algorythm to be awful.
Where did they say that??????????!!!!!!
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post #893 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 11:30 AM
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back on topic please

please take the high road in every post:do not respond to or quote a problematic post: report it
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post #894 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
It may 'never be advisable' within most of the calibrator crowd, but it's gotten excellent reviews and many are enjoying it. Further, Oppo, a highly respected company, found it good enough to incorporate it in two of their products.

So I think the comment that it's 'never advisable' conjures up an image (no pun intended) that's a bit too all encompassing.
plus others, Lumigen and a few more, I think DVDO use it too
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post #895 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
No caveat needed. That's part of the discussion from the very beginning. HDR will bennefit from having additional bitdepth, but is not defined by it. The additional bitdepth is there to reduce the distance between neighboring levels that are now effectively further apart than on a non-HDR display.

In any case, do the research you mentioned, and I look forward to your article.
Your definition of HDR stands. I just talked with Scott Wilkinson and his view on what constitutes HDR directly aligns with yours. Thanks for the discussion, and I look forward to picking it up again in a couple weeks.
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post #896 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I have a darblet and it makes the picture look better. Not sure if it was worth the cost. I think I paid around $250 for it.


The only thing I really don't like about it is about once a month it resets to default which is something like 100% vivid. The values can be reset pretty easily using the remote, but the default is for the darblet pct box to be on the screen and it's not easy to navigate through the menu and turn it off. Why would it default to that thing being on? and why isn't there a button on the remote to easily show/hide it?
The problem with Darblet is that it affects the Chroma in a not so good way.
All you need to test is AVSHD 709 disc.

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post #897 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 04:11 PM
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Unhappy Saw burn -in

I saw this TV on display at Fry's Electronics in Las Vegas and it has burn-in! Burn-in of the logo from the demo video was visible in some scenes. Any burn-in on a $25,000 TV is unacceptable. Is this a defect of all OLED's?
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post #898 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by KenT in SLC View Post
I saw this TV on display at Fry's Electronics in Las Vegas and it has burn-in! Burn-in of the logo from the demo video was visible in some scenes. Any burn-in on a $25,000 TV is unacceptable. Is this a defect of all OLED's?
You do realize that tv has been displaying the logo for 10+ hours a day, constantly, right? Its posts like these that spark the FUD.
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How many hours per day an owner of this beauty should be allowed to watch sports...with the scores' banner @ the top, or bottom?

Fair question.
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post #900 of 1024 Old 03-27-2015, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
You do realize that tv has been displaying the logo for 10+ hours a day, constantly, right? Its posts like these that spark the FUD.
Ten hours a day = constantly? Mine averages 14-15 hours a day. Of course it's not a constant logo but ESPN is on a whole lot.
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