Official Owners Thread 2015 LG 55EG9600 / 65EG9600 4k - Page 46 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1351 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
Agreed, I can't speak for Ken Ross, but my back and forth with ss was merely to clear up some language that might have confused people reading the thread. Hardly an argument or hijacking, though a crapton of people saw it that way.
Agreed. I really saw no 'battle' either. In my case I just wanted to clarify some position changes...or at least that's how I interpreted it.
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post #1352 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
We've traded the woes of CRTs like pincushion, convergence and focus for a whole different can of worms like ABL and relatively poor color linearity
ABL. Auto Brightness limiter.
Are you saying that the EG9600 has ABL, I haven't seen any signs of ABL on the EG9600 like there was on the VT60.

It seems that I am the only one posting Calibration reports, it would be interesting to see how your reports compare with mine. As you point out your EG9600 should be aged by now.
Also it would be interesting to see using the CIE 1931 observer to see how your use of wide gamut plots compared to a REC.709 gamut.

ss

How about ASIL.

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Last edited by sillysally; 05-27-2015 at 12:36 PM.
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post #1353 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 12:30 PM
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I'd agree with this SS. Although I have seen signs of ABL on most OLEDs, it isn't nearly as bad as any plasma I've seen.
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post #1354 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 02:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
ABL. Auto Brightness limiter.
Are you saying that the EG9600 has ABL, I haven't seen any signs of ABL on the EG9600 like there was on the VT60.

It seems that I am the only one posting Calibration reports, it would be interesting to see how your reports compare with mine. As you point out your EG9600 should be aged by now.
Also it would be interesting to see using the CIE 1931 observer to see how your use of wide gamut plots compared to a REC.709 gamut.

ss

How about ASIL.
Yes, the EG9600 absolutely has ABL. I didn't notice it at first either (in actual content), but over time I learned about a handful of content that can reasonably reproduce the issue. This is why I actually backed down slightly from my first calibration attempt (78 contrast, 55 OLED light) to the setting I'm using now (76 contrast, 50 OLED light - day and 76 Contrast, 35 OLED light - night).

The really beautiful thing about this TV is that the OLED light setting doesn't mess with gamma / white balance, where as if you want to come up with a day / night calibration on a VT60 that usually involves changing contrast and/or panel brightness and then that pretty much means re-doing white balance and CMS, and it'd be a total nightmare if that TV didn't have DDC AutoCal support

If you want to see the ABL in action on this TV, you can try the internal patterns it offers for white balance calibration. I laugh at the very thought of them, LG provided these patterns but they are full field and utterly useless on this TV since the patterns for IRE 60+ trigger ABL and make readings worthless. I don't know what LG was thinking, but it gave me a chuckle :P Those patterns are labeled "Inner" if you go to the white balance menu - "Outer" is what you use when you're going to use patterns supplied by a pattern generator (which is for all intents and purposes the only way to actually calibrate white balance on this TV).

I can package up some calibration reports later tonight. I've posted my results over time over about the last month or so, never anything formalized because I wasn't satisfied with yellow. I am satisfied with the way external CMS fixes up yellow now, so I'd be willing to put something final together. My goal was never to get perfect delta E scores, I just wanted skintones and blonde hair to look human in origin Nevertheless, average delta E on the color checker's below 0.9, which puts it at odds with the results 5 minutes using my VT60's working CMS deliver.
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Last edited by Kaldaien; 05-27-2015 at 02:21 PM.
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post #1355 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 03:17 PM
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If the ABL is like the previous OLEDs, it kicks in at around 50% APL (average picture level).

Any window patterns below 50% don't hit a problem, 50% starts to show it and full screen deffo has it.
The OLED light raises the whole process so your 50% APL can be much brighter on high OLED light without the ABL kicking in.
In other words, the OLED light sets the brighness of peak white so 25/50% of it is also brighter.
I don't think the contrast control works the same way.
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post #1356 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
If you want to see the ABL in action on this TV, you can try the internal patterns it offers for white balance calibration. I laugh at the very thought of them, LG provided these patterns but they are full field and utterly useless on this TV since the patterns for IRE 60+ trigger ABL and make readings worthless. I don't know what LG was thinking, but it gave me a chuckle :P
They even do it on their plasmas.

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post #1357 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 03:54 PM
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EC9300 and EA8800 owner here. I just bought the 75" Sony X940C yesterday as I needed a bigger set for our main entertainment room. The OLED's are currently on bedroom and secondary living room duty. Unfortunately those OLED's have ruined me, I cannot keep this Sony X940C FALD set. FALD is better than edge it for sure, but it's nothing like what OLED can do.

So my question is, are you owners happy with the EG9600? Is it as good/better than the EC9300? If it's as good, I know I'll be very happy. Or did this new gen bring new problems?

I am debating on if I should down size and pick up the 65" OLED instead. I'm leaning towards the EG model given the potential HDR compatibility.
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post #1358 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 03:59 PM
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Well, you asked about over HDMI just a second ago. Any 4K signal over HDMI is going to remain 4K on this TV
Haha, somewhat true on the technical side if the source is 4K, but "scaling" the image to match the display resolution is another thing entirely. Even on my PC outputting 1080p to a 1080p display the images aren't "scaled" correctly to match the display output. Sony's solution matches the picture to the display resolution to allow for a high resolution viewing experience. The 4K picture mode is applicable to HDMI, USB and DLNA (basically all 4K inputs). Whenever I've tried high resolution pictures on any other 4K set (Samsung mostly), they letterbox the images do to what looks like a tiny picture in a sea of TV screen. You have to manually zoom in on the picture to see a bigger image and more details and the scaling used with that isn't uniform (linear?).

But like I said, I'll find out later.

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post #1359 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 04:19 PM
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Yes go with the 65EG9600. Hands down best TV available!
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post #1360 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
Yes, the EG9600 absolutely has ABL. I didn't notice it at first either (in actual content), but over time I learned about a handful of content that can reasonably reproduce the issue. This is why I actually backed down slightly from my first calibration attempt (78 contrast, 55 OLED light) to the setting I'm using now (76 contrast, 50 OLED light - day and 76 Contrast, 35 OLED light - night).
I am using 78 contrast and 40 OLED, 2.4, wide as you know.

I will be on the lookout for ABL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
The really beautiful thing about this TV is that the OLED light setting doesn't mess with gamma / white balance, where as if you want to come up with a day / night calibration on a VT60 that usually involves changing contrast and/or panel brightness and then that pretty much means re-doing white balance and CMS, and it'd be a total nightmare if that TV didn't have DDC AutoCal support
Never used DDC for autocal with Calman. I always inputted my settings manually.
Never trusted CM to take control of my CMS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
If you want to see the ABL in action on this TV, you can try the internal patterns it offers for white balance calibration. I laugh at the very thought of them, LG provided these patterns but they are full field and utterly useless on this TV since the patterns for IRE 60+ trigger ABL and make readings worthless. I don't know what LG was thinking, but it gave me a chuckle :P Those patterns are labeled "Inner" if you go to the white balance menu - "Outer" is what you use when you're going to use patterns supplied by a pattern generator (which is for all intents and purposes the only way to actually calibrate white balance on this TV).
I saw what you had said about the internal patterns in the LG, so I never tried them.
Yes I always use outer.

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Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
I can package up some calibration reports later tonight. I've posted my results over time over about the last month or so, never anything formalized because I wasn't satisfied with yellow. I am satisfied with the way external CMS fixes up yellow now, so I'd be willing to put something final together. My goal was never to get perfect delta E scores, I just wanted skintones and blonde hair to look human in origin Nevertheless, average delta E on the color checker's below 0.9, which puts it at odds with the results 5 minutes using my VT60's working CMS deliver.
I am particularly interested in your low light raw numbers.
I still am not happy with my black level and not crushing any blacks, like 17 or even 18. Unless I want to raise contrast from 55/56 to 57 but then there goes my blacks.
Right now I am playing with black high and using PC level @10 bit settings in madTPG, just to see what happens.

Don't worry I don't expect you to have the low dE2000 I have, after all I am running 5 Sat sweeps, 129 gray step calibration (1DLUT) and about 10500 color points profile.
Plus I am finding when making a 3DLUT to use relative set at about 50 black input output not absolute for 2.2 and 2.4.
Doing that changes them from power like to more compatible to the gamma of the EG6600. Kinda a cross between BT.1886 and power law gamma.

The neat thing after you have run the profile, you can make any number of 3DLUT's from the one profile. Like 2.2 power, 2.2 relative, BT.1886. Making the 3DLUT from the profile takes between 5 sec to 5 min depending on the software you are using. Then just load them into eecolor at the same time.

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post #1361 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 07:32 PM
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Here is how using Black high, 0-255 output for patches. Once 3DLUT was inputed switched to Black low, increased brightnes from 39 to 40.
Set madTPG to output 10 bit.

Best Calibration report yet. 17 and higher are flashing.

ss
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post #1362 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 08:10 PM
 
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Here's some preliminary data using the wide color gamut and my iScan Duo video processor for CMS.

Red is an absolute monster in the wide gamut, 100% saturation wants to sit way outside Rec 709 unless you do something drastic like set the TV's Color setting to 80 and then set saturation down to ~30% in CMS. This is a native 10-bit panel, so tossing out (by drastically limiting saturation) a huge portion of the color space in the 10-bit signal isn't a huge loss (the original input 8-bit video only has a palette of about 14 million colors and the 10-bit video processor output offers over a billion) If I had a Lumagen Radiance video processor I could take advantage of its multi-point CMS to do this more intelligently and probably get every color in the color checker under 3.0 dE 2000, but I've basically got a single set of rotation, scale and translation controls per primary and secondary color and nothing else to work with.

You can see the values I used in my video processor's CMS in the color checker screenshot, under "HSL Adjust". It requires a massive amount of correction, far beyond what the TV's internal CMS can do (even if you ignore the artifacts it creates). Even with the ability to make huge changes to the signal, the wide gamut has a tendency to want to rotate the secondary colors way out of bounds at 100% saturation. 0-75% saturation is linear but then for 75-100% on magenta and cyan things take a sharp turn since red and green go wider than blue once you leave Rec 709 territory. I can get saturation and luminance correct, but that error in hue is impossible to correct without breaking all other shades of those colors. I'm not particularly concerned with that though, 0-75% is spot on, and that's far more important.

Gamma seems to have gone haywire near peak white and thrown some of the results off (you can see this if you look at the second gayscale bar from the bottom), but even with that weird blip near white colors are still performing a heck of a lot better than they would out of the box; I'll add the chart showing out of the box performance tomorrow. The important thing here is yellow, which is absolutely broken in the standard gamut, and that's working perfectly now.
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Last edited by Kaldaien; 05-27-2015 at 08:36 PM.
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post #1363 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
Red is an absolute monster in the wide gamut, 100% saturation wants to sit way outside Rec 709 unless you do something drastic like set the TV's Color setting to 80 and then set saturation down to ~30% in CMS.
Don't think you want to do any of that with the internal controls of the EG, because you will end up not even getting close to your VT60 in any way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
If I had a Lumagen Radiance video processor I could take advantage of its multi-point CMS to do this more intelligently and probably get every color in the color checker under 3.0 dE 2000, but I've basically got a single set of rotation, scale and translation controls per primary and secondary color and nothing else to work with.
You would be much better off with a eecolor than a Radiance, learning how to use argyll and madTPG. Not only from the stand point of better PQ, but the eecolor at $700 new is much cheaper than any Radiance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
You can see the values I used in my video processor's CMS in the color checker screenshot, under "HSL Adjust". It requires a massive amount of correction, far beyond what the TV's internal CMS can do (even if you ignore the artifacts it creates). Even with the ability to make huge changes to the signal, the wide gamut has a tendency to want to rotate the secondary colors way out of bounds at 100% saturation. 0-75% saturation is linear but then for 75-100% on magenta and cyan things take a sharp turn since red and green go wider than blue once you leave Rec 709 territory. I can get saturation and luminance correct, but that error in hue is impossible to correct without breaking all other shades of those colors. I'm not particularly concerned with that though, 0-75% is spot on, and that's far more important.
I had the problem with 100% luminance, but as you can see that is no longer a issue.

Why not just run Calman Quick Checker SG as I did above. Although it isn't very comprehensive it still has the raw numbers and you get a better idea with the complete range of charts.

btw, I added the wide Gamut chart and raw numbers from the profile, the Gamut coverage is the best I have had for the EG9600.
Still not as good as the VT60 at 99%, but non the less very good.

also, when using wide gamut, you may want to turn the EG's color control to the lower 40'S, and try not to use tint.
I will be looking closely at what I did in my above post, and tweak it.

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Last edited by sillysally; 05-27-2015 at 09:33 PM.
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post #1364 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 10:32 PM
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In case this has not been posted yet: http://www.trustedreviews.com/lg-55eg960v-review

"Verdict

Although it isn’t quite the slice of TV perfection AV unrealists may have been hoping for, the 55EG960V still sets the bar where black level response and design are concerned, and in doing so continues to make a hugely persuasive case for OLED’s place in the AV landscape of tomorrow,"
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post #1365 of 5758 Old 05-27-2015, 11:50 PM
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How good is Best Buys calibration service?
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post #1366 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 12:08 AM
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Can anybody run on 4K TV a fullhd 3D movie and take a picture with a very close distance were visible the pixels. I want to know it shows the full line, skipping "wrongly" polarized, or simply increasing the pixel and then it is cut in half in 3D
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post #1367 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 03:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Don't think you want to do any of that with the internal controls of the EG, because you will end up not even getting close to your VT60 in any way.
You would be much better off with a eecolor than a Radiance, learning how to use argyll and madTPG. Not only from the stand point of better PQ, but the eecolor at $700 new is much cheaper than any Radiance.
I'm not using the internal controls of the EG to do any of this, the only thing I used was the Color adjustment to range compress the signal to improve linearity. All CMS is done by my video processor.

I already own an eeColor box, I'm just not looking forward to profiling this display because of red. I've tried twice now, but the red ramp reads trigger auto-dim and I can't get good results. eeColor has served me well on some pretty cheap plasmas in the past, but this TV, with its nightmare auto-dim feature makes it impossible for me to create an accurate profile with my slow equipment.

A faster colorimeter would set me back only slightly less than the cost of this TV, and that's not a financial equation that makes a lick of sense I'm perfectly happy with my results though, I have a very keen understanding of color space math as an OpenGL programmer and am comfortable approaching the problem by hand using a limited set of matrix transform controls (3D CMS) rather than an automated process that would (if I had the appropriate equipment) map out the display's entire linearity characteristics and remap the color space. A 3D LUT would be nice, but it's not practical for me.

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post #1368 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 04:49 AM
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This is so tiresome...... Set the oled light to 100 and ensure contrast is below 50. Go from there. (100 back light disables short term dimming)
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post #1369 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 05:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneStepAhead View Post
EC9300 and EA8800 owner here. I just bought the 75" Sony X940C yesterday as I needed a bigger set for our main entertainment room. The OLED's are currently on bedroom and secondary living room duty. Unfortunately those OLED's have ruined me, I cannot keep this Sony X940C FALD set. FALD is better than edge it for sure, but it's nothing like what OLED can do.

So my question is, are you owners happy with the EG9600? Is it as good/better than the EC9300? If it's as good, I know I'll be very happy. Or did this new gen bring new problems?

I am debating on if I should down size and pick up the 65" OLED instead. I'm leaning towards the EG model given the potential HDR compatibility.
If HDR is your hold out, I'd consider holding out even longer. It's recently been speculated that if HDR support is added, it will only be for streaming services like Netflix and the TV will not be capable of doing it for UHD BluRay. HDR's not a big selling point for me, I figure by the time it's an integral part of the post production pipeline for movies this TV will have bit the dust anyway I think it's going to be a gimmick for the first 2-3 years sadly, and as an OpenGL software engineer it makes me even more sad that it's just a metadata thing for encoding video at this point and not something graphics developers have any hope of exploiting. We're still going to be doing the stupid HDR->LDR tonemapping stuff we've been doing for the past 10 years even though display devices don't technically need that anymore

There's no real new problems this model year, a few things were fixed and/or made less intrusive (such as ABL and noise reduction) and a few things remain broken (CMS, which of course only matters if you intend to get the TV calibrated).
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post #1370 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 05:08 AM
 
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This is so tiresome...... Set the oled light to 100 and ensure contrast is below 50. Go from there. (100 back light disables short term dimming)
That also completely throws off the luminance characteristics of any profile you're trying to create :-\ Then you go from a 3D LUT that incorrectly jacks luminance up on certain stimulus levels of red to one that dims every single color. So it may be tiresome, but that would just exacerbate the problem I'm trying to avoid.

To be clear, the fundamental problem here is that the profiled display gamma doesn't match the final display when auto-dim kicks in. Doing what you suggested has the same basic problem, the gamma with OLED light at 100 and contrast set below 50 doesn't in any way match how the TV was calibrated. Luminance response for all colors will be wrong and the profile will be completely invalid.

By the way, why is this so tiresome for you? Silly Sally asked me to show him how I worked around the yellow saturation problem using external CMS. If that annoys you, you can kindly keep it to yourself or take it up with him.

Last edited by Kaldaien; 05-28-2015 at 06:21 AM.
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post #1371 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 05:24 AM
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Official Owners Thread 2015 LG 55EG9600 / 65EG9600 4k

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
That also completely throws off the luminance characteristics of any profile you're trying to create :-\

No it doesn't. You guys are still trying to calibrate built on your experience with other technology.

There are some very interesting things in the service menu

And I would not be so quick to believe the speculation surrounding HDR support

These sets have the right chips in them and is capable of going much brighter than it all ready is.

Don't take that as saying the HDMIs will be covered with the update I'm saying LG are waiting to see what the final standards are. But the way the oled light control works and the fact that disabling dimming in the service menu disables the oled light control on the user menu and maxes out light from the panel suggests there is stuff in this set waiting to be woken up.

The oled light control set to anything but 100 enables dimming so on screen huds or dogs or any static images are targeted and dimmed. That could suggest that that could be reversed to allow bright areas to be targeted and raised for HDR. I've yet to measure high bright this set can go with a couple of tweaks in the service menu. Will have time over the weekend

As for the other controls I'm sorry I don't agree with you. Getting your greyscale right there is more than enough adjustment in the cms to get an awesome image.

Sure external cms boxes will do a far better job but that is the the same with ANY set.

I see loads of discussions and charts showing dots in squares but no discussion about picture quality. Sorry charts do not tell anything like the full story

There's plenty that even the best profiled meters can't measure that the eye can see. There are things that the eye can't see that meters pick up and calibration is a combination of the 2. It's a combination of science and art.

And isn't watching a film or a program what it's all about.
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post #1372 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 05:33 AM
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If HDR is your hold out, I'd consider holding out even longer. It's recently been speculated that if HDR support is added, it will only be for streaming services like Netflix and the TV will not be capable of doing it for UHD BluRay. HDR's not a big selling point for me, I figure by the time it's an integral part of the post production pipeline for movies this TV will have bit the dust anyway I think it's going to be a gimmick for the first 2-3 years sadly, and as an OpenGL software engineer it makes me even more sad that it's just a metadata thing for encoding video at this point and not something graphics developers have any hope of exploiting. We're still going to be doing the stupid HDR->LDR tonemapping stuff we've been doing for the past 10 years even though display devices don't technically need that anymore

There's no real new problems this model year, a few things were fixed and/or made less intrusive (such as ABL and noise reduction) and a few things remain broken (CMS, which of course only matters if you intend to get the TV calibrated).
It's not, but I wouldn't object to having it. I'm aware it likely won't work from 4k Bluray sources. I'm sure HDR is awesome, but I'm a TV addict, not a movie addict. For me, TV replaced movies a decade ago. Great movies are now essentially a thing of the past, with more and more big actors joining the TV world. I can't find any current movies that compare to say Game of Thrones, Spartacus, Breaking Bad, Outlander, etc. You are just very limited as to what you can do in a 2 hour movie versus 100 hours or more of TV! My actual point is, will we ever see HDR TV? Maybe, but by that time I will be on to my next TV set anyways. If HDR is just going to be on a few select Hollywood action type blockbusters, I likely won't give a rip about it.

So CMS is still broken, even on the WebOS 2.0 models?

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post #1373 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 05:37 AM
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It's not, but I wouldn't object to having it. I'm aware it likely won't work from 4k Bluray sources. I'm sure HDR is awesome, but I'm a TV addict, not a movie addict. For me, TV replaced movies a decade ago. Great movies are now essentially a thing of the past, with more and more big actors joining the TV world. I can't find any current movies that compare to say Game of Thrones, Spartacus, Breaking Bad, Outlander, etc. You are just very limited as to what you can do in a 2 hour movie versus 100 hours or more of TV! My actual point is, will we ever see HDR TV? Maybe, but by that time I will be on to my next TV set anyways. If HDR is just going to be on a few select Hollywood action type blockbusters, I likely won't give a rip about it.



So CMS is still broken, even on the WebOS 2.0 models?

The cms doesn't work as it should however there is enough there to things well within required tolerances providing your greyscale is right and the panel is lit correctly
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post #1374 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 05:55 AM
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How good is Best Buys calibration service?
It depends on the employee. You might get a great one or a newb. I doubt they have calibrated many OLEDs though.

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post #1375 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 06:38 AM
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No it doesn't. You guys are still trying to calibrate built on your experience with other technology.

There are some very interesting things in the service menu

And I would not be so quick to believe the speculation surrounding HDR support

These sets have the right chips in them and is capable of going much brighter than it all ready is.

Don't take that as saying the HDMIs will be covered with the update I'm saying LG are waiting to see what the final standards are. But the way the oled light control works and the fact that disabling dimming in the service menu disables the oled light control on the user menu and maxes out light from the panel suggests there is stuff in this set waiting to be woken up.

The oled light control set to anything but 100 enables dimming so on screen huds or dogs or any static images are targeted and dimmed. That could suggest that that could be reversed to allow bright areas to be targeted and raised for HDR. I've yet to measure high bright this set can go with a couple of tweaks in the service menu. Will have time over the weekend

As for the other controls I'm sorry I don't agree with you. Getting your greyscale right there is more than enough adjustment in the cms to get an awesome image.

Sure external cms boxes will do a far better job but that is the the same with ANY set.

I see loads of discussions and charts showing dots in squares but no discussion about picture quality. Sorry charts do not tell anything like the full story

There's plenty that even the best profiled meters can't measure that the eye can see. There are things that the eye can't see that meters pick up and calibration is a combination of the 2. It's a combination of science and art.

And isn't watching a film or a program what it's all about.
Bumtious,

Does the max Oled Light defeats dimming also on the EC930 ?

I know that on the EC930 the OLED Light behaves in a very linear way as it does not mess things up if you increase or decrease it after the calibration. But I never used it at 100%. The only moment when OLED light is at 100% is when 3D mode is turned on.

This tip could help for the 3DLUT creation when running DispcalGUI and ArgyllCMS.

I share from the opinion of SillySally even though I'm using a 3DLUT only with my HTPC and MadVR - I restrained myself from getting an eeColor box as I realize that it would be a significant cost for only a 1080p device that in 2 or 3 years will be completely outdated. So, I think using a 3DLUT on the HTPC is the best compromise until a better solution come up.

But I agree that results with the 3D LUT tend to be better than using only the set calibration controls, specially colors and skin colors. My only complain is that black level using the 3DLUT is set at level 19/20 (2.4 gamma) when I have level 17 with the regular TV calibration.
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post #1376 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 06:52 AM
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Bumtious,



Does the max Oled Light defeats dimming also on the EC930 ?



I know that on the EC930 the OLED Light behaves in a very linear way as it does not mess things up if you increase or decrease it after the calibration. But I never used it at 100%. The only moment when OLED light is at 100% is when 3D mode is turned on.



This tip could help for the 3DLUT creation when running DispcalGUI and ArgyllCMS.



I share from the opinion of SillySally even though I'm using a 3DLUT only with my HTPC and MadVR - I restrained myself from getting an eeColor box as I realize that it would be a significant cost for only a 1080p device that in 2 or 3 years will be completely outdated. So, I think using a 3DLUT on the HTPC is the best compromise until a better solution come up.



But I agree that results with the 3D LUT tend to be better than using only the set calibration controls, specially colors and skin colors. My only complain is that black level using the 3DLUT is set at level 19/20 (2.4 gamma) when I have level 17 with the regular TV calibration.

I can only comment from experience of the UK 930 set which may be different

I have not yet tried things on a 930. Only a 960. The 960 is a completely different beast to the 930.

The control gui on screen dramatically effects on the fly readings where it's not an issue on the 960

I suspect calibrating from the service menu will yeald better results on a 930. With the 960 you have a third of the corsness of the 2 point greyscale in the service menu meaning that the critical 2 point should be far tighter also allowing far better gamma tracking.

It is critical on a 930 to use HDMI black setting of high as low screws up low luminance colour mapping. (Nothing you can do with the sets built in apps or tuners.)

The cms controls are broken on the 930. So for best results you do need external help. And if you do have that option is best to do as much as you can there. However you should try and get the 2 point as tight as you can in the set first. Saying that if the image looks better using the eternal box then go with that.

Finally the 930 & 970 are second gen panels with the 960 is a third so things have moved on. Abl as said is far more aggressive on the 930 and that maybe to protect it from retention or burn. The 960 panels seem much more robust on that front.

As said will have to try on a 930 and will be doing that next week. My guess is I will using the service menu controls.
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post #1377 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 07:16 AM
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I can only comment from experience of the UK 930 set which may be different
I have an European model too

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Originally Posted by Bumtious View Post
I have not yet tried things on a 930. Only a 960. The 960 is a completely different beast to the 930.

The control gui on screen dramatically effects on the fly readings where it's not an issue on the 960
That's true unless I maxed up contrast to 100% then I have no problem with on-the-fly readings with menu controls up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumtious View Post
I suspect calibrating from the service menu will yeald better results on a 930. With the 960 you have a third of the corsness of the 2 point greyscale in the service menu meaning that the critical 2 point should be far tighter also allowing far better gamma tracking.
Now...you made me think...how the hell can I make the service menu show up

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Originally Posted by Bumtious View Post
It is critical on a 930 to use HDMI black setting of high as low screws up low luminance colour mapping. (Nothing you can do with the sets built in apps or tuners.)
I'm really struggling to find any differences from black level high vs low to tell you the truth...I have each one calibrated on ISF1Expert and ISF2Expert but with "usual" sources (Blu-ray player, media player all set outputting at YCbCR) I really don't see where are the differences...(besides the different brightness settings each one is and WTW)....

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Originally Posted by Bumtious View Post
The cms controls are broken on the 930. So for best results you do need external help. And if you do have that option is best to do as much as you can there. However you should try and get the 2 point as tight as you can in the set first. Saying that if the image looks better using the eternal box then go with that.
I agree. I don't touch the CMS. I usually use 15% and 80% for the 2Point calibration and they are both around 0.5 dE2000 ..then I use the 20Point to improve further the results and also correct gamma.

I had a lot of trouble to get a working LUT with DCG and ArgyllCMS. All my first attempts were full of artefacts but in the end I managed to create one that improved on what I have done using only the set controls. I believe that where I can see better results is with skin tones, maybe because I can't use the CMS on the 930. But it's great news that the 960 improves on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumtious View Post
Finally the 930 & 970 are second gen panels with the 960 is a third so things have moved on. Abl as said is far more aggressive on the 930 and that maybe to protect it from retention or burn. The 960 panels seem much more robust on that front.

As said will have to try on a 930 and will be doing that next week. My guess is I will using the service menu controls.
If you have that opportunity that will be very nice to hear from you on that matter

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post #1378 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 07:57 AM
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Hi guys, I'm sure most of you came across the Samsung js9500 when looking into purchasing the LG OLED. Based on your research or experience why didn't you go with SUHD? I understand the technology side of it, but at $4000? Yes, I understand people can be nit picky as I can be, but I'm asking more to those who are practical and have a solid reason. I know the SUHD does not have the blackest blacks or may have some blur, but what else am I missing? Has anyone here ever owned the sharp elite? I'm wondering how the js9500 compared to that because the sharp elite was acceptable to me. Everyone is intitled to their own opinion and I respect that.
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post #1379 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 11:10 AM
 
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No it doesn't. You guys are still trying to calibrate built on your experience with other technology.

The oled light control set to anything but 100 enables dimming so on screen huds or dogs or any static images are targeted and dimmed. That could suggest that that could be reversed to allow bright areas to be targeted and raised for HDR. I've yet to measure high bright this set can go with a couple of tweaks in the service menu. Will have time over the weekend

As for the other controls I'm sorry I don't agree with you. Getting your greyscale right there is more than enough adjustment in the cms to get an awesome image.

Sure external cms boxes will do a far better job but that is the the same with ANY set.

I see loads of discussions and charts showing dots in squares but no discussion about picture quality. Sorry charts do not tell anything like the full story

There's plenty that even the best profiled meters can't measure that the eye can see. There are things that the eye can't see that meters pick up and calibration is a combination of the 2. It's a combination of science and art.

And isn't watching a film or a program what it's all about.
I've had plenty of discussions about the picture quality in this forum as they pertain to this issue. You're on some bizarre high horse here that I cannot for the life of me figure out. Just because yellow saturation is not an issue for you when viewing content on your brittish set, that doesn't mean this problem doesn't affect other people.

Getting your grayscale right sounds like a really good generic thing to tell someone to cover all bases, but I've got grayscale down to < 0.1 delta E. Problems with secondaries absolutely, unequivocally do not lie with grayscale. This is a problem affecting everyone I've talked to who has worked on a 55/65EG9600, we must all really suck at white balance if nobody's ever encountered one of these TVs without this problem.

I for one find it very distressing when watching movies and television where skin tones are lacking natural yellow pigment and blonde hair is white rather than yellow. But you're sitting here telling me the only reason I worked my ass off to fix yellow saturation was because it produced pretty charts. I'm sorry, but you sir are completely off your rocker.

In fact, if you scroll back several pages in this same thread you will find Chad B's calibration report, which shows clear as day the massive undersaturation issues endemic to this TV. Yes, hue is important for secondaries, and that's under control the way he calibrated it, but a delta E > 10 for saturation on anything is going to be visible to anyone watching familiar content on the TV. If you're used to watching plasmas and CRTs that display accurate yellow, this problem sticks out like a sore thumb and eats at your very soul until you fix the white parts of the picture that are actually supposed to be yellow. Is that an adequate description of the problem for you without using charts?

As for setting OLED light to 100 and contrast to 50%, that absolutely alters the gamma curve and RGB balance. I'm very surprised you of all people are trying to tell me otherwise.

And last, regarding the service menu, I'm sure there is some useful stuff in there, but it's impossible to get into. You need a special remote control.
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post #1380 of 5758 Old 05-28-2015, 11:20 AM
 
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Ok, wait a second, can I have you guys clarify something here?

On the LG OLED's, which of the settings that affect the high end also end up raising the black level (to whatever degree)?

Or do none of them?

It is a different beast entirely than LCD (on LCD, if you increase the backlight, the bottom and top raise proportionately ending up with the same CR). And I'm confused as to how similar the settings may be to plasma.

Note, I'm not talking about the theoretical capabilities of the technology. I feel like I've read every Kodak patent and white paper there was on the subject already. I'm asking specifically about LG's settings, which are free to do anything.
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