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post #31 of 63 Old 04-07-2015, 02:03 PM
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Because the main benefit of higher bitdepth is an increased number of gradations which makes banding less visible (when that added bit-depth is fully used and not just compressed back down to save space or bandwidth) and because banding is completely dependant on the native contrast of the display, at what contrast ratio does a decent quality BD show visible banding?

I would think anyone with a decent plasma or JVC PJ would have nothing but complaints if banding was a consistent problem at 8bits..and bright or dark there isn't any higher dynamic range to be found beyond a good plasma, JVC, or oled, so I'd have to believe banding is more a problem of poor quality sources (poor finishing will be a problem at any bit-depth).

I guess my 2cents would be, give the amoled a look..if you see banding, it's time to care about HDR; if you don't see it having trouble with banding, an LCD sure isn't going to need HDR to look smooth and it'll never match the amoled contrast.

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post #32 of 63 Old 04-08-2015, 04:52 AM
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Thanks fafrd, that was an interesting post for me and I think you have summed up my thoughts on the issue too. If LG say they max out at 800 nits they must have some idea that the eventual HDR standard isn't going to be 1,000 nits as then they obviously wouldn't meet the new standard! Especially in light of their supposed alliance on HDR with Netflix:

techradar[dot]com/news/television/hdtv/netflix-is-going-to-deliver-hdr-content-to-lg-tvs-this-year-1278927

Do we think the standard will be 800 nits or less then or will nit size maybe not form part of the standard and only the ability to carry certain metadata will?
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post #33 of 63 Old 04-08-2015, 06:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Because the main benefit of higher bitdepth is an increased number of gradations which makes banding less visible (when that added bit-depth is fully used and not just compressed back down to save space or bandwidth) and because banding is completely dependant on the native contrast of the display
Why do you believe that banding is "completely" dependent upon the CR? A crummy CR has a more limited range, but not significant enough to alter the banding effect of not enough bits.

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post #34 of 63 Old 04-08-2015, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by siouxchief View Post
Thanks fafrd, that was an interesting post for me and I think you have summed up my thoughts on the issue too. If LG say they max out at 800 nits they must have some idea that the eventual HDR standard isn't going to be 1,000 nits as then they obviously wouldn't meet the new standard! Especially in light of their supposed alliance on HDR with Netflix:

techradar[dot]com/news/television/hdtv/netflix-is-going-to-deliver-hdr-content-to-lg-tvs-this-year-1278927

Do we think the standard will be 800 nits or less then or will nit size maybe not form part of the standard and only the ability to carry certain metadata will?
We'll see how it all shakes out, but my suspicion is that there will be a range of TVs capable of interpreting and displaying HDR metadata even if they may lack the requisite 'minimum' brightness to be 'HDR Certified' by the HDR Alliance.

So for example, even if the minimum brightness is 1000 Nits, the LG OLEDs and the Vizio Reference Series will be able to display HDR images with up to 800 Nits of peak brightness.

I'm even expecting Vizio's 2015 P-Series to be HDR-capable with a peak brightness of 'only' 400 Nits (brightness of the 2014 P-Series).

What this is likely to end up meaning is that a 400 Nit TV is only going to be able to deliver true HDR-like performance in certain environments. Using thevP-Series, for example, I have mine calibrated to 100 Nits for dark-room viewing (Calibrated Dark). This means I have 2 bits of additional brightness that I don't use and which can probably be used to deliver good HDR capability as long as watching in a dark room.

My Standard calibration for daytime viewing is 250 Nits, and so it is unlikely that I'd be able to see much benefit to running HDR on my 400 Nit display while viewing in the Day (while the R-Series with it's 800 Nits of brightness should do just fine ).

HDR will bring benefits in terms of increased color gamut, improved optical transfer function (gamma), and increased bits-per-pixel in any case, so it is just the ability to deliver speculat highlights a requested brightness that is likely to be compromised by 'less-that-1000-Nit' HDR-capable TVs...
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post #35 of 63 Old 04-08-2015, 11:55 AM
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Great read, thanks for the added info
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post #36 of 63 Old 04-08-2015, 12:07 PM
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Let's distinguish (1) the ability to decode HDR data in the signal, (2) the ability to display some additional brightness levels in that data, (3) the ability to display some of those shades at high brightness, (4) the ability to display wide gamut colors. Phrases like "HDR capable" or "HDR ready" or "full HDR" might refer just to (1). When we hear that Dolby wants to have HDR include brightness up to 4000 nits, or 10,000 nits, that doesn't necessarily imply that a suitable display device would have to show those maximum brightnesses -- they just want a distribution standard that allows specifying very high brightness.

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post #37 of 63 Old 04-08-2015, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Let's distinguish (1) the ability to decode HDR data in the signal, (2) the ability to display some additional brightness levels in that data, (3) the ability to display some of those shades at high brightness, (4) the ability to display wide gamut colors. Phrases like "HDR capable" or "HDR ready" or "full HDR" might refer just to (1). When we hear that Dolby wants to have HDR include brightness up to 4000 nits, or 10,000 nits, that doesn't necessarily imply that a suitable display device would have to show those maximum brightnesses -- they just want a distribution standard that allows specifying very high brightness.
Good list, but I would rephrase a bit:

A/ ability to decode HDR data in the signal ('HDR compatible')

B/ ability to display some intermediate brightness levels from that data (ie: 10 bit panels and HDR gamma functions) - let's call that one 'HDR capable' (or possibly 'HDR-lite').

C/ ability to display speculat highlights at some minimum increased brightness (2X is probably a minimum) - perhaps that gets called 'True HDR' or we use 'HDR-lite' for this case.

D/ ability to display speculat highlights at the HDR Alliances specified minimum of 1000 Nits - that's probably 'Full HDR' or 'HDR Certified'.

E/ ability to display speculat highlights at even brighter levels, eventually up to Dolby's target of 4000 Nits -how about Super HDR?
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post #38 of 63 Old 04-08-2015, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Why do you believe that banding is "completely" dependent upon the CR? A crummy CR has a more limited range, but not significant enough to alter the banding effect of not enough bits.
The difference between average LCD native CR and great CR can easily be as large as 1000:1-1,500:1(LCD display) and 50,000:1(high-end plasma or amoled)..that's a 30X+ difference of native contrast.
That means what could easily be a 0.5X just-noticeable-difference transition in shading becomes a 15X JND on the high-CR display. Previously invisible banding becoming 30X more obvious.

The point is that an overwhelming majority of JVC/amoled/plasma owners are already experiencing a 10-30X higher JND gap and there isn't a flood of complaints about these displays looking poor. The inverse is that even a very high native CR LCD is going to have 5-10X lesser NCR (about 3,000-5,000:1 compared to 50,000:1) and that means it'll have 10X smaller JND gaps than the higher CR displays that are presently already doing just fine.

Of course another consideration is that JND requires larger differences at lower brightness levels, so between 2 sets with equal CR (one with great blacks, one with sunlight brights) the set with deeper blacks will show less visible banding by default if everything else is equal. Then again, with an 800nit top end..that's already a bright set for high contrast and 8bits. Any word on how it looks? Is it smooth?

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #39 of 63 Old 04-08-2015, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
The difference between average LCD native CR and great CR can easily be as large as 1000:1-1,500:1(LCD display) and 50,000:1(high-end plasma or amoled)..that's a 30X+ difference of native contrast.
That means what could easily be a 0.5X just-noticeable-difference transition in shading becomes a 15X JND on the high-CR display. Previously invisible banding becoming 30X more obvious.
I understand what you are saying, but I think it is more complicated than that for at least a couple of reasons. For one, with our vision 30x ratio isn't necessarily 30x more obvious. For another, there are multiple steps and can be spread out. For instance, with all steps have the same percentage difference 16 (or 17, depending how you count) steps can span total ranges like the following:

A: 1.1^16 = 4.6:1
B: 1.4^16 = 218:1

In this example the latter case spans a range almost 50 times as big, but the steps could be said to be 4 times as big each in the range they represent (e.g. the low end, where JNDs tend to be higher to human vision).

Compare the same 4x larger steps over 32 steps and now the latter case spans a range over 2000 times as large.

Spread a 30x difference in total contrast ratio range over a lot more steps (like 219) and the individual step sizes don't have to differ all that much to span those different ranges.

--Darin
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post #40 of 63 Old 04-08-2015, 07:32 PM
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Thanks to both of you for that polite and easily understood explanation..that makes a lot more sense why banding isn't ridiculously prevalent for high CR displays.

With contrast differences making a smaller impact, what size of increase would it take beyond current highCR displays to make banding a problem with good sources? Is native CR over 50,000:1 even possible, let alone possible with bright LCD?
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post #41 of 63 Old 04-08-2015, 09:05 PM
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Just some info from the LG Netflix-Lg event today, still no real news on whether hdr support will be available on current oleds

Quote:
During the session, Netflix VP Scott Mirer said he expects the HDR standard to be finalized “shortly” and hopes to stream HDR content late this year.
Quote:
t’s not certain, however, whether current-generation OLED TVs will handle future HDR content, but OLED display technology itself is capable
Quote:
On related topics, Netflix’s Mirer was asked about the expected launch of 4K Blu-ray discs and whether the format will fly. “Consumers will decide if physical media still has legs” and whether “picture quality will carry it forward,” he responded.
Quote:
In other comments, LG said the Web OS interface on in its 2014 smart TVs will be upgraded via a free firmware update to add most of the capabilities of Web OS 2.0, which appears in LG’s 2015 smart TVs. LG estimates the update will be available in July
http://www.twice.com/news/tv/panel-o...hard-see/56704
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post #42 of 63 Old 04-09-2015, 02:14 AM
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Just some info from the LG Netflix-Lg event today, still no real news on whether hdr support will be available on current oleds
http://www.twice.com/news/tv/panel-o...hard-see/56704
Great read, thank you. LG OLED HDR 4K tv will be the ultimate tv.
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post #43 of 63 Old 04-09-2015, 05:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Thanks to both of you for that polite and easily understood explanation..that makes a lot more sense why banding isn't ridiculously prevalent for high CR displays.

With contrast differences making a smaller impact, what size of increase would it take beyond current highCR displays to make banding a problem with good sources? Is native CR over 50,000:1 even possible, let alone possible with bright LCD?
Well, there's still a fundamental problem with measuring "true black" as it relates to CR, because a division by zero (unmeasurable anyway----some arguments there) is either not possible or conceptually viewed as infinity. Not particularly useful. But to directly answer your last question, I can't imagine any LCD ever blocking enough light to achieve 50,000:1, I don't care what the high level is. This is keeping FALD out of the discussion: It introduces a confusing calculation by itself because they're shutting off the light behind a region.

But besides that, strictly for HDR and banding issues, I think it's best to not think first in terms of CR, but think in terms of the range. The reason is because:

1. The high and low levels (range) allow you to calculate the CR, not the other way around.
and
2. The range (and bitdepth) allows you to calculate the bands and their neighboring values. (Assuming you know the curve applied....they're not linear).

In both cases, you start with the range; it's the raw output of light and how many steps you have available from the min to the max of that output, that determine the banding effect. The CR is something you calculate after knowing the range.

Of course, we're specifically leaving out band mitigating algorithms like spatial dithering for this discussion.

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post #44 of 63 Old 04-09-2015, 09:37 AM
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please do not post the videos ,I will just post the link and you see the video on youtube ,mark will be doing an article about this soon.

Mark recently uploaded some videos about LG Oled.

https://www.youtube.com/user/AVSforumvideos/videos
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post #45 of 63 Old 04-09-2015, 09:57 AM
 
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please do not post the videos ,I will just post the link and you see the video on youtube ,mark will be doing an article about this soon.

Mark recently uploaded some videos about LG Oled.

https://www.youtube.com/user/AVSforumvideos/videos

(Paraphrased) "LG brought its own LCD's, which they put in a different section. Interestingly, those LCD's looked a lot better than the ones they used in the LCD/OLED comparisons."

LOL!
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post #46 of 63 Old 04-09-2015, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

(Paraphrased) "LG brought its own LCD's, which they put in a different section. Interestingly, those LCD's looked a lot better than the ones they used in the LCD/OLED comparisons."

LOL!
They look better because those are IPS panels .

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post #47 of 63 Old 04-09-2015, 11:00 AM
 
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They look better because those are IPS panels .
They look better because they're not the crappiest panels in history, such as the ones they dug up for the OLED comparison. I'd love to see what the settings were on those as well.
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post #48 of 63 Old 04-09-2015, 11:50 AM
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Actually isn't IPS tech known for having poor black levels compared to the likes of VA?
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post #49 of 63 Old 04-09-2015, 12:16 PM
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Just ran into this(first UHD/HDR OTA Broadcast test here in the US): http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/...oadcast/275489
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post #50 of 63 Old 04-09-2015, 12:31 PM
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please do not post the videos ,I will just post the link and you see the video on youtube ,mark will be doing an article about this soon.

Mark recently uploaded some videos about LG Oled.

https://www.youtube.com/user/AVSforumvideos/videos
No worries, those videos are fair game. I am going to post something about that event. However, if a video is public on the AVS YouTube channel, feel free to post it and comment on it.
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post #51 of 63 Old 04-09-2015, 03:49 PM
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They look better because they're not the crappiest panels in history, such as the ones they dug up for the OLED comparison. I'd love to see what the settings were on those as well.
I'm surprised they didn't just show the "Samsung" name on them...which I'd bet they were. I don't know why, but I suspect they didn't receive a full ISF calibration...just a guess.
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Actually isn't IPS tech known for having poor black levels compared to the likes of VA?
Yes, that's the problem with Panasonic's LCDs. What's interesting is that in the video, both viewing angles and CRs head-on are terrible. Kudos to LG for making them look so bad.
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Actually isn't IPS tech known for having poor black levels compared to the likes of VA?
It's also known for having strange uniformity issues, strange even by LCD standards
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post #54 of 63 Old 04-09-2015, 03:53 PM
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It's also known for having strange uniformity issues, strange even by LCD standards
"It."

Do you mean VA or IPS?
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Just ran into this(first UHD/HDR OTA Broadcast test here in the US): http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/...oadcast/275489
So who was it that was traveling at 120mph while receiving these test broadcasts?
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"it."

do you mean va or ips?
ips.
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
So who was it that was traveling at 120mph while receiving these test broadcasts?
I'm guessing that means you can watch terrestrial broadcast TV while flying in something slow like a helicopter? Or perhaps, more importantly, a helicopter can send a UHD signal to a news station for re-broadcast?

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^ Perhaps, but the criteria applied to reception is probably not the same as transmission. So I'm not sure there's any real relevance for transmission in a chopper.
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post #59 of 63 Old 04-09-2015, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
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So who was it that was traveling at 120mph while receiving these test broadcasts?
They could have done it on a track since that'd be the easiest way to test stability for extended periods of time. Alternatively you could manage it with a large empty parking lot.
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They could have done it on a track since that'd be the easiest way to test stability for extended periods of time. Alternatively you could manage it with a large empty parking lot.
Very large and very empty.
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