2015 Value Electronics Flat-Panel Shootout Results - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
The key point though is the OLED's lack of uniformity can be fixed, as it's not something inherent to the technology, which is still in its infancy.
A key point is whether it can be fixed on the model that was in the shootout, as opposed to future models. The shootout isn't between technologies, it's between specific TVs.

I agree that just because the 65EG9700 has an issue, it says nothing about OLED in general.

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post #302 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
The key point though is the OLED's lack of uniformity can be fixed, as it's not something inherent to the technology, which is still in its infancy.
agreed
I need to find last years thread on the shootout as I don't remember oled uniformity being that low
And if it wasn't that low, than we know lg can and has done better

Again, I wonder if the increase of resolution exposed an issue that was somewhat hidden by 1080
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post #303 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
The difference is that each of the picture quality categories are independent characteristics that do not require balancing their worth against a completely unrelated number just to give them a numerical value. Value requires a comparison of two unrelated things: price and quality. A TV's score in black level should not affect it's score in motion resolution. Likewise, it's score in "price" should not affect it's score in any picture quality category. And yet, most reviews out there do just that. They give a display a higher PQ score than it deserves because it is cheap. And that makes it impossible to determine how much better the PQ on an expensive display is compared to a cheap one.

I'm not saying that price shouldn't be a consideration when purchasing a display. I'd even be ok if there were a "price" category in the shootout, where the displays are ranked on price and that then becomes a factor in determining the overall winner in terms of "bang for your buck". What I don't want to see is people saying, this TV has good black levels for the price so I'm going to give it a 9 in black levels, even though it's not even close to a more expensive display to which you also gave a 9 in black level scoring.

Btw, I think your idea of a buyer's search/comparison tool that allows you to pick the categories that are most important to you is wonderful.
i may have misunderstood what you wanted. i was under the impression you WANTED value to be included... half of your above reply seems to indicate you don't like reviewers taking price into consideration when scoring performance, something i completely agree with. a black level of .002ftl should get the same score whether it's a 500 or 5000 dollar display

i don't believe anything needs to be compared(black level compared to motion). the fact is some ppl will see an mll of .002ftl and lose their minds at how bright it is, while others will be amazed at how black it is. that could be said of every category.

ppl have 'tolerances' to all of these, and the price/value is not special in that regard. for example, if i saw a tv that had 9's across the board, and then a 6 for motion i'd probably be ok with that. if i see one with all 9's except black score, i'm not even going to consider the tv.

to the best of my knowledge, the scores given at the shootout are NOT related to price. and i'm not sure why you'd want them to be(which is how i interpret a 'value' category to be). i don't think anybody needs to do the math for us. give us the performance score, list the price, we can decide the rest. it's bad enough that the market is generally lowering quality in order to hit that 'value' sweet spot. i really don't think we want to crown the 'best display' based on how many corners they can cut.

reminds me of the first time i ran a catapult contest for my physics class, and to stop them from bringing in these war-machines i said their score would be the distance divided by the weight. so one catapult throws 100+feet and gets last place, and another throws 4inches and wins, because it was made of styrofoam and weighed nothing.
i mean do you really want a 300dollar chinese crap tv to win just because it's /20th the price of a tv that's 'only' 15x better? i don't

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post #304 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
None of the models in the shoot out offer what by the end of the year will be UHD. The extent that they offer the resolution part of UHD and some of the over benefits of UHD, they all fail in one or more areas. Its a great car buy the brakes suck. Guess I should buy Just say no. If these are the best, vote no and use a temporary rope bridge and a balance pole if you really must cross the river today.


One is only crazy if one attempts to rationalize.
Please explain the above post. What is it the Sony & Samsung are lacking that today's buyer would be utterly disappointed by the end of the year? Inquiring minds want to know, because apparently I'm 'crazy'.
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post #305 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 08:46 AM
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Technically he and all others here are human beings. But that term really means nothing for purposes of viewers, their judgments and their opinions.
It was just a tongue and cheek comment that every human being who read it got except for you.

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post #306 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by tubby497 View Post
And only "fumble" for OLED is Uniformity.

Again, how does Sony's 940C gives the best overall performance vs the OLED? And where did you get the fact that FALD/LCD are rated higher? Based on performance or issues?

I have no idea why you think I'm picking on you or Ken, but seems to me, all other issues/concerns pertaining to LCD/LEDs are put to the side/lessened whenever OLED is discussed.
So you weren't at the shootout. Got it.

If you were, you'd see your statement is tantamount (I'm embellishing here just a bit) to saying "The only fumble is that it doesn't power on at times".

"Fumbling" on something as important as uniformity, and to the degree it did fumble, is a huge failure. You're choosing to minimize it which makes it clear you haven't seen it.
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post #307 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
So you weren't at the shootout. Got it.

If you were, you'd see your statement is tantamount (I'm embellishing here just a bit) to saying "The only fumble is that it doesn't power on at times".

"Fumbling" on something as important as uniformity, and to the degree it did fumble, is a huge failure. You're choosing to minimize it which makes it clear you haven't seen it.
idk Ken, other members seem fine minimizing fundamental flaws with lcd that cannot go away(off angle performance)

Not sure why we can't apply the same logic to this oled
At the end of the day, we are selectively minimizing flaws
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post #308 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
The key point though is the OLED's lack of uniformity can be fixed, as it's not something inherent to the technology, which is still in its infancy.
So the questions are:

* Can it be fixed with the current production techniques when we're not even sure if LG considers it to be an issue?

* If so, will it be fixed before LG decides to abandon OLED...if they decide to abandon it?

The bottom line is that I'm not convinced it will be fixed to the point that it will no longer be considered a problem. I certainly hope it will, but what will happen first, the fix or the availability of a Vizio R?

Let's hope that Tim Alessi was correct and that they are working on it. But I remember the top Sharp Elite guys saying 'We're working on the cyan fix'. Uh huh.
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post #309 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 08:57 AM
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It would be interesting to see the same comparison done with the entry line of displays from Vizio, RCA and the like.

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post #310 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 08:59 AM
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So how is it the OLED is not downrated in the day light category for it's distorted purple reflections?
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post #311 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:00 AM
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idk Ken, other members seem fine minimizing fundamental flaws with lcd that cannot go away(off angle performance)

Not sure why we can't apply the same logic to this oled
At the end of the day, we are selectively minimizing flaws
Here's why I disagree. Off-axis viewing (and the Sony is actually quite good on this in the LCD world) may not be an issue for many people. There is no spot on my couch that seats about 4-5 people, where viewing wouldn't be excellent. Everyone would be in a sweet spot where color & contrast would remain excellent. I've done this exercise in-store to the point that some must have thought I was drunk.

The OLED, with it's poor uniformity, would be seen by everyone on the couch, everywhere in the room.

That's a huge difference.
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post #312 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:02 AM
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So how is it the OLED is not downrated in the day light category for it's distorted purple reflections?
I've never seen that as an issue.
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post #313 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
So you weren't at the shootout. Got it.

If you were, you'd see your statement is tantamount (I'm embellishing here just a bit) to saying "The only fumble is that it doesn't power on at times".

"Fumbling" on something as important as uniformity, and to the degree it did fumble, is a huge failure. You're choosing to minimize it which makes it clear you haven't seen it.
I have an OLED. It has those issues but the issues don't make it a total failure. Same goes for uniformity issues that plague FALD/LCD.
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post #314 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:05 AM
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I have an OLED. It has those issues but the issues don't make it a total failure. Same goes for uniformity issues that plague FALD/LCD.
But Tubby, the uniformity issues on your 55" are nothing like what we saw with the 65". Not even close. Uniformity issues on the 55" would never have deterred me if I was in the market for that size OLED
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post #315 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
So the questions are:

* Can it be fixed with the current production techniques when we're not even sure if LG considers it to be an issue?

That we of course don't know, but I've got to believe it can be fixed. Though I doubt just like with every other emissive display technology that they will ever get to perfect uniformity. They didn't with plasma and the so-called 'panel lottery' will no doubt be the case with OLED too.

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* If so, will it be fixed before LG decides to abandon OLED...if they decide to abandon it?

Whoa, I don't even want to think they are anywhere near abandoning it. The tech has so much potential for not only high quality image rendering, but also cheap production and is very light weight. I'm hoping and truly think the latter two are likely to carry it through, but we'll have to see.
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post #316 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:06 AM
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It's a bit late in the conversation, but I do happen to have this video clip—which I recorded in UHD/4K—that features a number of good moments where you can see how the TVs handle black levels in Gravity. I placed the camera as close as possible to a spot where all the TVs were facing it directly. Unfortunately, audience members occasionally block the view.

There are a number of good moments in the clip, but be aware that due to the variable lag times between the TVs they are not always sync'd on the same exact frame. When Scott pauses the video in the shootout, you get an exact frame-for-frame comparison. There's a good one at 05:26


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post #317 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:07 AM
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But Tubby, the uniformity issues on your 55" are nothing like what we saw with the 65". Not even close. Uniformity issues on the 55" would never have deterred me if I was in the market for that size OLED
Just to gets some reference, I went back to last years results to see how the lg oled uniformity scored
I am surprised there isn't a uniformity category
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post #318 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:08 AM
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@RWetmore - It all depends on profitability. They won't continue it because it has the capability of being the best, they'll continue it because they're making money on it.

Not too many companies continue making a 'statement piece' when they continue to lose money on each and every 'statement piece' they produce.

We can only hope that things go well in the OLED world.
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post #319 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:12 AM
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Your not crazy or rationalizing. Like you, i wanted to get a 4k set and one justification is a larger size. My 70" Elite was viewed as a backup if I couldn't find anything at least as good or better PQ wise. I tried a 78" Samsung HU9000 for a month and returned it without replacement. Happy to go back to the Elite. However, a couple a months ago the Elite developed internal video processing issues with low light earth tone sources. Macro blocking/posterization including skin tones. Elite had to be replaced.

Chose to try the 940C in part because of Samsung's idiotic pricing on the 78" JS9500. Did not have high expectations regarding PQ vs. the Elite. I have been very pleasantly surprised. As I said in my first post in the 930/940C thread, WE ARE PLEASED. More specifically regarding PQ variables that are important to me:

Blacks; At least as good if not better than the Elite. Professional reviews of the Elite measured blacks at .0004 to .0007 FL. ChadB's review of the 940C measured them at .00067FL with the low LD setting. His meter couldn't go low enough to measure the medium or high LD results.
Contrast: Better than the Elite since the 940C can put out significantly higher 100% luminance without clipping white (turning it pink). As a practical measure given my viewing preferences in low light or dark room, 55 FL is what I calibrate to since above that bothers my eyes. So the results are equal given my preferences.
Screen Uniformity: The Elite had almost no flash lighting and no clouding on a black test pattern. The Sony has none of either. The Elite had no clouding, DSE or banding on test patterns going from 5% to 100% in 5% increments. None visible in actual content either. The 940C is as good as the Elite. I was surprised that the 940C didn't get an almost perfect score in this category at the Shootout.
Motion: Based upon the S&M 2d tests the Sony is better than the Elite. BFI on the Sony requires a major increase in backlight and contrast to maintain the same overall luminance however. Never tried that on the elite since it's BFI didn't appear to improve motion on test patterns. Finally, wish I had greater tolerance of SOE. Using both BFI and smooth plus film mode set at medium produces "perfect" test pattern results on the S&M tests including Sarah. However, I can't live with the SOE medium introduces.

Off angle and bright viewing conditions aren't important to me. If you check the Shootout results the Sony slightly beats the Samsung on the items I find important and it's $2k cheaper. Color is a moot issue since I use a Lumagen Radiance and calibrating with it fixes any greyscale/gamma and color gamut issues. The Sony calibrates more easily than the Elite.

As I mentioned to you before I bought the Sony as a 2-3 year bridge to OLED. I am happy enough with it that it may be longer.
Thanks for the comparison! I love my Elite, but I want a bigger screen size, 4K and HDR. I'll have to make a trip to Magnolia and see the 940C. I like LCDs and FALD done right can produce incredible results. If the Sharp Elite can win a shootout against the great plasmas, then another FALD can do it against OLED. The Sony and Samsung came close and it will be interesting to see what they have in store for next year. I'm very anxious for the Vizio R series and the 80 inch beyond 4K FALD from Sharp. Maybe they will be in next year's shootout.
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post #320 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:14 AM
 
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Agree.
I'm glad that LG's aware of the black bar issue. Hopefully they will fix it with future models.
the problem with the darkening/vignetting sides has been there since the first Gen OLEDs
its less on the 50"s but still there and even worse on the 65"s it seems.
they must have known about this issue (incase the engineers wasnt blind) already in 2013.

colclusion is that they dont know how to fix it.
or if its a limitation with the WRGB filters they use.
it can also be that they are stretching the panels performance beyond its limits just to hit 0 black.
i have said it before and i dont think the picture on these OLEDs are supposed to start from 0 black.
thats why all OLEDs have all these weird problems near black.

raise the blacklevel and im sure all near black problems will go away on the OLEDs.
but how many wants to sacrifice blacks just to get rid of the issues?

when i see a OLED that performs like the KRP near black i will get one right away.
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post #321 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:14 AM
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Ken Ross WOW I think that I finally saw for the first time this issue at minute 53 on the test pattern.

Please watch the video and let me know if that's the issue ,I can't believe what I saw ,I hope that is just my vision

watch in full screen

http://livestream.com/accounts/63243...ideos/91325206


is this an issue with normal content ?

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post #322 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:21 AM
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If one for the moment accepts the category scoring as fair and accurate, then it might make more sense to use a spreadsheet to further tailor the results to your preference and needs using a weight average methodology

In this example, this might be someone who watches a lot of sports in the evening, and viewing is from a single couch centered on the TV...motion and screen uniformity are among the most important, while off axis and Day mode have no real benefit for you...

The whole number values represent a percentage you want to weight an element, so in this case, black value is valued at 10%, motion at 30%. You just must make sure all the weighting values equal 100 when done.

Calculation of the weighted average field is also included
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post #323 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Ken Ross WOW I think that I finally saw for the first time this issue at minute 53 on the test pattern.

Please watch the video and let me know if that's the issue ,I can't believe what I saw ,I hope that is just my vision

watch in full screen

http://livestream.com/accounts/63243...ideos/91325206


is this an issue with normal content ?
Yup, that's it. It actually looked worse in person and yes, it's visible with lower APL content. Now you see why I'm so turned off.
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post #324 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:42 AM
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Ken is completely right. I would also add that when you can see all 4 displays together, it does appear on other than lower APl content but is just not as obvious. Frankly, that is the wosrt I have seen it on an OLED but have seen it on quite a few OLEDs. It was plainly visible as well when watching The Dark Knight on the 77 incher. The more I think about it, maybe they need to make the boxes thicker to reduce panel stress.

Louder is NOT better!
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post #325 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 09:46 AM
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@RWetmore - It all depends on profitability. They won't continue it because it has the capability of being the best, they'll continue it because they're making money on it.

Not too many companies continue making a 'statement piece' when they continue to lose money on each and every 'statement piece' they produce.

We can only hope that things go well in the OLED world.
Am I correct that Samsung (I don't think any of the other TV manufacturers have the resources) hasn't abandoned OLED technology altogether but has decided not to produce retail models until they resolve production costs. I thought I read that they said OLEDs are 3-4 years away from being cost effective.

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post #326 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Ken Ross WOW I think that I finally saw for the first time this issue at minute 53 on the test pattern.

Please watch the video and let me know if that's the issue ,I can't believe what I saw ,I hope that is just my vision

watch in full screen

http://livestream.com/accounts/63243...ideos/91325206


is this an issue with normal content ?

But its nothing new, there have been ton of reports on avs forum.


Just some examples.


It was always there.
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Last edited by Bruce2019; 06-27-2015 at 10:16 AM.
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post #327 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post
But its nothing new, there have been ton of reports on avs forum.


Just some examples.


It was always there.
Thanks, I haven't been much in the OLED threads.
This is the very first time that I see this issue.
They need to fix this issue ASAP.



It is visible on the video at 10% and 20% grayscale pattern after 20% I can't see it on the video.

So in some low APL scene this dark edges could probably be visible.

Last edited by losservatore; 06-28-2015 at 10:41 AM.
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post #328 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It's a bit late in the conversation, but I do happen to have this video clip—which I recorded in UHD/4K—that features a number of good moments where you can see how the TVs handle black levels in Gravity. I placed the camera as close as possible to a spot where all the TVs were facing it directly. Unfortunately, audience members occasionally block the view.

There are a number of good moments in the clip, but be aware that due to the variable lag times between the TVs they are not always sync'd on the same exact frame. When Scott pauses the video in the shootout, you get an exact frame-for-frame comparison. There's a good one at 05:26


thank you so much for this hopefully next year they hire u as camera man. The off axis live feed was a bod choice for placement ..

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post #329 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 11:02 AM
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Scott I watch a lot of ice hockey, I am surprised by the difference in motion clarity by the two groups. The experts gave motion clarity on the LG9600 a 7.40 next to the lowest, while the audience gave it the highest score of 8.14, can you explain this?
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post #330 of 1566 Old 06-27-2015, 11:07 AM
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David: Carlos took photos of the menu settings for both the night and day modes. The day mode shows Clear 1 as being on in the motion settings. As the owner of a 940C, I know from calibrating it that Any clear setting above min significantly reduces light output. The higher you go the worse it gets. I use clear 2 for my motion optimization setting and with no other light affecting changes had to increase backlight from 14 to 45 and contrast from 75 to 90 to get approximately the same 100% light output. If clear 1 was actually on for the peak light output test, the Sony was not producing as much light as it is capable of.
Right you are, and here's why it was set up that way.

The Backlight control on its own does not have sufficient range to produce 35fl light output. It can't go that low.

Normally the thing to do there would be to lower digital white level to produce a dimmer picture, but this is wasteful because while it will reduce peak white digitally, it won't reduce MLL. Whereas being able to reduce the backlight control would reduce peak white AND reduce the MLL too.

So, I used the backlight blinking control to get down to 35 fL as the next possible way of reducing the light output at the optical, rather than digital, level, to maximize the contrast ratio of the panel. Also, if we have to do it this way and the Backlight control doesn't have enough range, we might as well get some little extra motion resolution out of it as a reward.

The only problem is that in the menu, the Motionflow settings are shared across picture modes. That's not practical for switching between day/night usage. For the peak white measurement that AVS will publish later, backlight blinking will be off.
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David Mackenzie
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ISF Certified Calibrator (Level 2) / THX Certified Professional (Video Calibration Level 2)

Last edited by lyris; 06-27-2015 at 11:17 AM.
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