2015 Value Electronics Flat-Panel Shootout Results - Page 28 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #811 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Somewere else you said something similar ''blooming was almost non-existent''. So it is still existent with white-mixed contentespecially when you sit about 3 times the sceen hight or closer which over 50% of AVSers do. One also should keep in mind that stuff like blooming gets worse in a darkened room and off-axis.

Let me add Chad B's comment on blooming in his 75X940C review ''after calibration''''mild blooming in in certain situations''
At the shootout, which was a darkened room, it was so slight that it was a non-issue. Of course if you move significantly off-axis it will increase. I don't watch significantly off-axis.

Whatever you think, it was far far less of an issue than the dark banding on the OLED.

Every single display of every technology has issues...yes 8mile, even yours. If this 'mild blooming' that in a darkened room was a non-issue to me, is the worst of the problems, then I'm golden.

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post #812 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Desk, good luck trying to make any determination of almost anything from that shot.

For the most part, being there, showed very minimal differences in black levels in most scenes. Where there was a difference, the OLED won, but not by as much as you'd think.

Remember, this is an A/B. If you observed the Sony alone, much of this difference would disappear. That's the nature of A/Bs. Just as the Sony was skewed a bit to the warmer side and the Samsung skewed a bit to the cool side, sitting next to each other these differences were exaggerated.

I'd bet that looking at either one alone, much of this color temperature difference would disappear.
I agree that the OLED have issues with low apl scenes ,but no... this LCD's are not close to OLED blacks.
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post #813 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
I agree that the OLED have issues with low apl scenes ,but no... this LCD's are not close to OLED blacks.
The black levels were actually were quite close if you attended the actual session. Sure OLED was still darker, but most attendees can attest to the fact that the best LCDs there were really quite close.

You just can't see this well, to any degree of accuracy, watching these feeds.
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post #814 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post
It seems to me that having any kind of screen over a light source or image (transmissive) can never be as good as seeing the light source or image directly (emissive). This also affects viewing angle, to say nothing of contrast.
I don't think the emissive/transmissive distinction is terribly useful. LCDs don't lack contrast because they are transmissive. They lack contrast because the transmissive implementation is unsuccessful. A successful transmissive implementation is not inconceivable. It just happens to be that nobody has yet implemented such a thing in a consumer TV.

Conceptually there is something nicer about emissive displays. Ideal transmissive displays produce unwanted photons that have to be captured. Ideal emissive displays avoid the problem by not producing the unwanted photons in the first place. In practice nothing is ideal. For example, plasma displays produce unwanted photons in the ultraviolet and infrared parts of the spectrum. Fortunately, they are not visible. Unfortunately, producing invisible photons is an inefficient use of energy.
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post #815 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 10:26 AM
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Another screenshot it was off angle so IMO to minimize seeing the blooming you need to be right at the center and I have a sectional so this tv is not a candidate for me.
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post #816 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 10:40 AM
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please limit posts to technical issues

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post #817 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Another screenshot it was off angle so IMO to minimize seeing the blooming you need to be right at the center and I have a sectional so this tv is not a candidate for me.

who cares about loading screens? care about actual content you watch. not to mention, they probably had the backlight turned up for display the HDR CONTENT, which is real content, not a loading screen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
I agree that the OLED have issues with low apl scenes ,but no... this LCD's are not close to OLED blacks.

no theyre not, but chad b. has measured the 940c black level at .00067 which is still very good. i bet it beats "most" plasmas. only the best of the best will be better.


for reference, RTINGS has recently done their review of the JS9500(which technically has worse blacks than the 940c). interested to see if they review the 940c and what measurements they get.

samsung JS9500 on their scale:


Black: 0.035 cd/m2
White: 108.7 cd/m2
Contrast: 3106 : 1

samsugn F8500 Plasma

Black: 0.032 cd/m2
White: 103.5 cd/m2
Contrast: 3324 : 1

panasonic ST60

Black: 0.011 cd/m2
White: 81.99 cd/m2
Contrast: 7454 : 1


still waiting on them to post calibration results too too at the beginning of this thread.

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post #818 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxo View Post
I don't think the emissive/transmissive distinction is terribly useful. LCDs don't lack contrast because they are transmissive. They lack contrast because the transmissive implementation is unsuccessful. ...
I knew someone would jump on me for being implicit rather than explicit.

Yes, in a technical sense, transmissive in and by itself has no bearing on contrast. In practical terms we all know that transmissive displays are LCD displays, LCD displays will always have a problem with contrast until local dimming operates at the pixel level, which is a lunatic concept.

Controlling things at the level of the pixel is the important thing here, and LCDs will never (never say never) do that.
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post #819 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 11:04 AM
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Would anyone really be unhappy with any of these in their house?
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post #820 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
who cares about loading screens? care about actual content you watch. not to mention, they probably had the backlight turned up for display the HDR CONTENT, which is real content, not a loading screen.
The screenshot isn't much different from your HDR pictures comparisons.

I did say that is off angle and I will also add that the pictures do exaggerate the blooming.

I didn't mean to cause you a reaction about the picture , if you want I can remove the picture.

So far the display that I think that won the shootout was the Sony even that the OLED have deeper blacks ,they need to fix the dark edges ASAP.
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post #821 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Screenshot isn't much different from your HDR pictures comparisons.

I did say that is off angle and will add that the pictures do exaggerate the blooming.

I didn't mean to cause you a reaction about the picture I can removed it if you want.

So far the display that I think that won the shootout was the Sony even that the OLED have deeper blacks ,they need to fix the dark edges ASAP.

your good dont worry


and yes, if anything, the shootout proved there still is no perfect display yet, and i dont think there ever will be. to excel in one area it seems it will cause another area to suffer. so consumers right now can pick 1 side or find somthing in the middle.

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post #822 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
But again the brightness was significantly reduced and the Sony rep mentioned this as well.
It has enough headroom left to provide a plenty bright pciture.

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Would anyone really be unhappy with any of these in their house?
Yes, I would be
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post #823 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 12:01 PM
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I'm surprised that the only display that doesn't have a back light had the worst score in screen uniformity. Aren't screen uniformity issues always due to back lights?
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post #824 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jimv1983 View Post
I'm surprised that the only display that doesn't have a back light had the worst score in screen uniformity. Aren't screen uniformity issues always due to back lights?

No, the screen uniformity issues the OLED had are well documented in this thread. They are not always related to backlighting.


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post #825 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jimv1983 View Post
I'm surprised that the only display that doesn't have a back light had the worst score in screen uniformity. Aren't screen uniformity issues always due to back lights?
because it was showing dark edges on the 10% , 20 % grayscale pattern.
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post #826 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
The black levels were actually were quite close if you attended the actual session. Sure OLED was still darker, but most attendees can attest to the fact that the best LCDs there were really quite close.

You just can't see this well, to any degree of accuracy, watching these feeds.
Ken,

Good luck with your new Sony display.

I would say that you are a prime example of what a daunting task LG OLED faces in winning over enough early buyers, since you were one of their staunchest supporters for a very long time. Having lost someone like you to Sony, is very bad news for the LG OLED team. They better get their act together very soon. i don't think that they can afford to wait until the 2016 models to fix the uniformity defects.
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
because it was showing dark edges on the 10% , 20 % grayscale pattern.
My favorite things to watch.

I think the black edges thing is overblown. Most owners would never know about it unless someone pointed it out to them. I think that's why the OLED won. Most voters pinged it, but didn't obsess over it.
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
who cares about loading screens? care about actual content you watch. not to mention, they probably had the backlight turned up for display the HDR CONTENT, which is real content, not a loading screen.





no theyre not, but chad b. has measured the 940c black level at .00067 which is still very good. i bet it beats "most" plasmas. only the best of the best will be better.


for reference, RTINGS has recently done their review of the JS9500(which technically has worse blacks than the 940c). interested to see if they review the 940c and what measurements they get.

samsung JS9500 on their scale:


Black: 0.035 cd/m2
White: 108.7 cd/m2
Contrast: 3106 : 1

samsugn F8500 Plasma

Black: 0.032 cd/m2
White: 103.5 cd/m2
Contrast: 3324 : 1

panasonic ST60

Black: 0.011 cd/m2
White: 81.99 cd/m2
Contrast: 7454 : 1


still waiting on them to post calibration results too too at the beginning of this thread.
Rtings gave the Vizio P and M series darker blacks then the JS9500. I dont see how this can be?

Vizio P
Black: 0.030 cd/m2
White: 102.2 cd/m2
Contrast: 3406 : 1

Vizio M
Black: 0.024 cd/m2
White: 101.3 cd/m2
Contrast: 4233 : 1

JS 9500
Black: 0.035 cd/m2
White: 108.7 cd/m2
Contrast: 3106 : 1
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post #829 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 01:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post
Ken,

Good luck with your new Sony display.

I would say that you are a prime example of what a daunting task LG OLED faces in winning over enough early buyers, since you were one of their staunchest supporters for a very long time. Having lost someone like you to Sony, is very bad news for the LG OLED team. They better get their act together very soon. i don't think that they can afford to wait until the 2016 models to fix the uniformity defects.
Hmm..Someone predicted years ago that improving LCD tech with WCG/HDR/FALD might achieve good enough black levels and contrast that OLED could be sidelined before it every got off the ground and regulated to expensive niche status. LG needs to get this fixed in a hurry and get those yields up to reduce the prices. Better and cheaper WHF LCD is on the way and they are running out of time. That Beyond 4K Sharp 80UX30 is shaping up to be the ultimate OLED killer.
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post #830 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 01:02 PM
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My favorite things to watch.

I think the black edges thing is overblown. Most owners would never know about it unless someone pointed it out to them. I think that's why the OLED won. Most voters pinged it, but didn't obsess over it.
As an EG9600 owner, I would agree with this.
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post #831 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
My favorite things to watch.

I think the black edges thing is overblown. Most owners would never know about it unless someone pointed it out to them. I think that's why the OLED won. Most voters pinged it, but didn't obsess over it.
I agree ! but it is still an issue.

The issue was evident on the life of pi ship sinking scene.
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Last edited by losservatore; 06-30-2015 at 01:23 PM.
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post #832 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 01:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
My favorite things to watch.

I think the black edges thing is overblown. Most owners would never know about it unless someone pointed it out to them. I think that's why the OLED won. Most voters pinged it, but didn't obsess over it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDCarp04 View Post
As an EG9600 owner, I would agree with this.
I don't. I think it's nonsense to think that such a thing is overblown at a shootout.

There is no such thing as "not obsessing" over something at a shootout. A shootout is precisely where you should (if you're doing your job at all) obsess over everything!
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post #833 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by boosted330 View Post
Rtings gave the Vizio P and M series darker blacks then the JS9500. I dont see how this can be?



Vizio P

Black: 0.030 cd/m2

White: 102.2 cd/m2

Contrast: 3406 : 1



Vizio M

Black: 0.024 cd/m2

White: 101.3 cd/m2

Contrast: 4233 : 1



JS 9500

Black: 0.035 cd/m2

White: 108.7 cd/m2

Contrast: 3106 : 1

And why is this? Because it's a Vizio? While not perfect, they are NOT horrible. Hopefully Marks review sheds further light onto the 2015 M series.


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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
who cares about loading screens? care about actual content you watch. not to mention, they probably had the backlight turned up for display the HDR CONTENT, which is real content, not a loading screen.





no theyre not, but chad b. has measured the 940c black level at .00067 which is still very good. i bet it beats "most" plasmas. only the best of the best will be better.


for reference, RTINGS has recently done their review of the JS9500(which technically has worse blacks than the 940c). interested to see if they review the 940c and what measurements they get.

Samsung JS9500 on their scale:


Black: 0.035 cd/m2
White: 108.7 cd/m2
Contrast: 3106 : 1

Samsung F8500 Plasma

Black: 0.032 cd/m2
White: 103.5 cd/m2
Contrast: 3324 : 1

panasonic ST60

Black: 0.011 cd/m2
White: 81.99 cd/m2
Contrast: 7454 : 1


still waiting on them to post calibration results too too at the beginning of this thread.

Quote:
Vizio P
Black: 0.030 cd/m2
White: 102.2 cd/m2
Contrast: 3406 : 1

Vizio M
Black: 0.024 cd/m2
White: 101.3 cd/m2
Contrast: 4233 : 1

-rtings.com-
My 2013 Sony in the home office here :

Black: 0.022 cd/m2
White: 104.5 cd/m2
Contrast: 4750 : 1

Admittedly ofc setting aside 4K WCG and HDR Imagine that

Samsung VA panel ofc.

That being said I havent seen the 2015 Sony X940C or X930C or anything 2015 XBR instead just the 55 X850C meh ? and ( 65X850C with trilumuinius on) that looked real decent almost excellent or excxelent IMO.

I saw 50" Vizio P that looked rather ordinary to me and the 2015 55" 4K Vizio M that looked real decent for the $$

I saw the Samsung JS 9500 that aside from my dislike of curved screens looked excellent along with the real desent JS 8500 and decent JU 7100
and borderline excellent to excelent 2015 65" LG 4K LCD .

All the above impressions were at Best Buy and all that comes with that and I am looking forward to drooling in front of the X940C/X930C 's .

ofc all that being said the Sammie f8500 and Panny VT/ZT are excelent IMO also .

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post #835 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post
Ken,

Good luck with your new Sony display.

I would say that you are a prime example of what a daunting task LG OLED faces in winning over enough early buyers, since you were one of their staunchest supporters for a very long time. Having lost someone like you to Sony, is very bad news for the LG OLED team. They better get their act together very soon. i don't think that they can afford to wait until the 2016 models to fix the uniformity defects.
Greenland, you're right and I never thought of it that way.
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post #836 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
My 2013 Sony in the home office here :

Black: 0.022 cd/m2
White: 104.5 cd/m2
Contrast: 4750 : 1

Admittedly setting aside 4K WCG and HDR Imagine that

Samsung VA panel ofc.

Ive been saying this for a while. But contrast ratios are overrated. I think the panasonic that got destroyed in the shootout has a 6000:1 contrast ratio?


Also, rtings highest contrast ratio tv is a sharp tv (not the elite). Im pretty sure the picture on that tv doesnt compare to the highend samsung or sony tvs.
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post #837 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 01:39 PM
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Ray, I thought it was the Sony that had that native CR?
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post #838 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 02:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Ive been saying this for a while. But contrast ratios are overrated. I think the panasonic that got destroyed in the shootout has a 6000:1 contrast ratio?


Also, rtings highest contrast ratio tv is a sharp tv (not the elite). Im pretty sure the picture on that tv doesnt compare to the highend samsung or sony tvs.
Contrast beyond a cetain point is a case by case thing IMO along with other things in any given set for an overall result but a very important fundamental none the less.


Setting aside WCG and HDR and 4K close up my 2013 1080p Sony doesent leave much on the table to any of the LCD's and soundly trounced the 2015 55X850C scores at rtings .com . OTOH my Sammy Plasma destroys it and most LCD probably short of an 2015 XBR or TOTL Sammy in general so the 4700:1 contrast ain't hurting that Sony one bit neither did my DIY calibration .


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Ken Ross I know that pictures are not an accurate representation of what people saw in the shootout,but while you was there, did you notice any blooming during this torture test scene on the JS ?

Don't take the pictures too serious this are off angle pictures and the camera tend to exaggerate things ,everything that you see here is not 100% accurate ,I just want to know about the blooming.

I clarify this to prevent some over reactions.
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Last edited by losservatore; 06-30-2015 at 02:53 PM.
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post #840 of 1566 Old 06-30-2015, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
And why is this? Because it's a Vizio? While not perfect, they are NOT horrible. Hopefully Marks review sheds further light onto the 2015 M series.


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Not at all, but mainly because of how many zones the Vizios have compared to the Samsung and for the sheer price difference. Other reviews say the blacks are not as good on the M series compared to P series yet this says otherwise. Honestly I was real close to buying a 70" P series last year but I'm waiting and hoping they adopt HDR in this years P series before I purchase.

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