Comparison of LG EG960V OLED VS Samsung 55ā?³JS9000 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by 1959Dodge View Post
"Nice Try", Ken, but like my title here, You are "spitting into the wind". You will not change any of their minds, as far as Oleds go.


Just look at SS's post about "perfect color" on his Oled,(as an example), we've seen posts, (Kaleden) & others & numerous other reviews, & also the shootout, complaints about cyan and green problems yellow under saturation, on the Oleds, yet his is perfect. (no one can tell him any different, and I would be the last to try)!


I would just save your breath, hopefully the new flat Oled that is "coming soon" will be as, "certain Oled posters here", claim, "Perfect"!!!!
LOL. I hear ya Gary. But I'm not going to knock OLEDs, they are fantastic displays, but we all know now they have issues with low IRE material. It is what it is and we can only hope they iron out these issues over time. Now that I've seen what the best FALD displays can do (and I'm currently living with the Sony 940c), I know OLED has competition and I really don't care what some of the less objective here think. I honestly don't. This thing is the real deal. Perfect? Nope. Competition for OLED? IMO, you betcha. I couldn't be happier with the PQ.

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Originally Posted by 1959Dodge View Post
I'm sure if I claimed the Samsung is better than the Sony, welllllll~~~~~ You and I would probably argue that to eternity, so I won't.


I am anxious to see the new Samsung JS7000, thou as I have decided that my next TV will be a 60", and as of right now, there are not a lot of candidates, alto I'm in No hurry.


I watched the Old 52" Sharp, last nite, with the lights off, and I played many of the videos and slide shows I've made over the last ten years, and guess what, No blooming, No bad motion, No dim edges, No picture noise, No "Off colors, or "grey blacks" came out to byte me. I just really enjoyed watching those videos.


I just hope any new TV I buy, can do as well!!!


Gary
Nah, I wouldn't argue the point Gary. If you saw my posts upon returning from CES, I clearly stated the Samsung 9500 was, IMO, the 2nd best display there after the OLED. I had not seen the Sony 940c at that point. Of course LG was not showcasing material at CES that would have manifested the OLED issues. No manufacturer does.

I can say that my 940c has incredible blacks...so black, I'd guarantee most people would think it's OLED. I also virtually no evidence of blooming in the sweet spot...and that's unusually large for a panel of this type. My own 4K content, as well as some I've downloaded on the Sony media server, look just incredible and beyond my expectations. I'm also very pleasantly surprised at how truly excellent the upscaling of HD is. Absolutely wonderful. Even 720p looks great.

The bottom line is we have some really great displays today between the FALDs from Sony & Samsung as well as the OLEDs. None are perfect, but all are great!
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post #32 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by AB4OLED View Post
A snippet from a flatpanelshd article:

"With an LCD TV you need full-array local dimming (FALD) zones to do HDR, but as you probably know there are only a few hundred zones. So when the LCD TV is reproducing a very bright spot, for example the sun, it needs to fully activate the zone behind this part of the picture, which means that it will often overexpose the area around the bright spot. LGā€™s OLED TVs do not, and we noticed how the OLED TVs can reproduce bright spots and still maintain a perfect balance in the rest of the image. Why? Because every single pixel in an OLED panel can go from perfect, zero black to 800 nits (current peak brightness of the new 4K OLED TVs). This corresponds to having a local dimming zone behind every single of the 8 million pixels in an LCD panel. Impossible.

We also saw some HDR demos running on LCD TVs without full-array local dimming systems. It was not very pretty. Do not expect to enjoy HDR content on those kinds of TVs even if it is advertised in the specifications.

Another big difference between HDR on a LCD and OLED is evident in the darkest areas of the picture. Again, this is one of the disadvantages of LCD local dimming zones that dim in areas where the picture is dark, which also means that many ā€œshadow detailsā€ disappear. When comparing LCD and OLED side-by-side the difference is dramatic. Black is truly black on the OLED - no tricks - and there are far more details in the dark areas of the picture."

I also had the opportunity recently to view the Sony, Samsung & LG best sets in the same room and although they all had great picture quality, the OLED really stood out. I really liked the Sony as well but when you compared the black levels with the same content it made the Sony very good black looked washed out. So I used my eyes to determine which TV had the better picture. It wasn't close In my eyes opinion. Even my family thought the LG was by far the better TV based on picture only. They think all TVs are basically the same and normally could care less about TV's (Average Consumer). Comments like, that's beautiful, that's awesome, that's amazing. Thus, I now own a 2nd OLED TV (65EG9600) and my wife informed me that I now have to buy new seating and remodel the room.

And yes unfortunately, my unit is also showing those infamous black bars on occasions. But the picture quality is second to none. I can live with those occasional black bars.
Per my discussion, I AM talking about FALD LCDs. Hello?

As for the # of zones, the shootout proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's not just about the number, but also how the manufacturer implements those zones with their software. The Sony has less dimming zones than the Samsung, yet it clearly had less blooming. Now that I have it in the house, I would say blooming is a total non-issue anywhere in the sweet spot.

As for your observation of the Sony blacks, how anyone could call them 'washed out', even in comparison to OLED, is beyond me. The Sony must have been seriously misadjusted or you are suffering from a serious lack of objectivity. In a totally dark room in my house, the blacks are true black and blend into the black bezel. Washed out? C'mon, please. On several occasions I saw both the 65" OLED and the 75" Sony in the same Magnolia. Each time I went home thinking "I feel the Sony actually has a more compelling image". I stated on AVS the very first time I saw the Sony (before the shootout), this display was the real deal.

I also noticed that the Sony 940c threads seemed to have the happiest owners. I don't see the moaning about this and that over there, just very happy owners. I now see why that it is.

Finally, I am so very tired of hearing the phrase 'using tricks' when speaking of FALD blacks. Please, reproducing ANY TV picture by any technology is nothing but 'tricks'. Each tech has its own 'tricks'. Yawn.

At any rate, we'll never sway each other and frankly I'm growing tired of these endless debates that never go anywhere. I'll probably be spending less time in these OLED threads as has been the case for me recently.

Enjoy your OLED, it's a truly great display. My objectivity wouldn't allow me to state that any other way despite now being a super happy owner of the 940c.
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post #33 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 07:13 PM
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So you bought the Sony, 940C?, Ken?, last time I checked your were "fence sitting", IE waiting like me, alto I realize my pick won't be near as good as yours, as there are no Falds, HDR, WCG on 60" TV's , so far, Unless the JS7000 bears fruit, time will tell.


If you did buy a new TV, enjoys it, heavens knows, like me, You certainly did do your research before pushing the "Buy Button"!


Gary
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post #34 of 114 Old 07-12-2015, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
...Competition for OLED? IMO, you betcha. I couldn't be happier with the PQ.

When/if LG fixes the "dark edges" issue and brings the pricing on a more competitive level it is game over for LCD.


OLED is superior in every PQ category that really matters that it is no competition at all, the only reason why some of the FALD LCD's could keep up this year is mostly due to the uniformity flaw on the OLED.
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post #35 of 114 Old 07-12-2015, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 1959Dodge View Post
"Nice Try", Ken, but like my title here, You are "spitting into the wind". You will not change any of their minds, as far as Oleds go.

Just look at SS's post about "perfect color" on his Oled,(as an example), we've seen posts, (Kaleden) & others & numerous other reviews, & also the shootout, complaints about cyan and green problems yellow under saturation, on the Oleds, yet his is perfect. (no one can tell him any different, and I would be the last to try)!
Gary
You have no basis for what you are saying. Nor do you have any idea how to read a calibration report, if you did you would not of posted.

Look at my calibration reports, and tell me where you see anything in those reports that would suggest any of the issues you have read about.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post35146322

I find your post very insulting and without any merit.
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post #36 of 114 Old 07-12-2015, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
LOL. I hear ya Gary. But I'm not going to knock OLEDs, they are fantastic displays, but we all know now they have issues with low IRE material. It is what it is and we can only hope they iron out these issues over time. Now that I've seen what the best FALD displays can do (and I'm currently living with the Sony 940c), I know OLED has competition and I really don't care what some of the less objective here think. I honestly don't. This thing is the real deal. Perfect? Nope. Competition for OLED? IMO, you betcha. I couldn't be happier with the PQ.
Ken did you look at the calibration reports from the shoot out?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post35331914

The Sony's 940C LCD black level was measured by a reference K10-A meter at 0.013FL.
So there is no way the Sony can come even close to the OLED's black level of .0000FL, for that matter a Kuro or a VT/ZT60 with black level of .0012 or lower.

These are simply fact's, there is no way around this.
If you don't believe me then ask David the calibrator from the shoot out if those two measured black levels from the Sony and LG are not a big difference. They are.

ss
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post #37 of 114 Old 07-12-2015, 03:49 PM
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Boy Boys...Play nice. In all honesty a calibration report means nothing to the average person. Trust your eyes and go with the set that you perceive as superior. Stop reading and start looking! I was also at the shootout and came away extremely impressed with the Samsung and Sony FALD sets. The JS9500 is a monumental step up for Samsung when it comes to LED TV's. That being said, I still do not think it rivals an OLED. I own the 55EC9300, a model that does not suffer those dreaded edge flames that were present on the 4k OLED at the shootout. There is a picture depth with an OLED set that LED just cant seem to match. Ill be honest, I was expecting the OLED to blow away the FALD sets with regards to black level but they really werent as far apart as you may think. In fact if they were not side by side I think 95% of people would be completely satisfied with the black level performance of all the flagship sets out this year .

The JS9500 has great color accuracy that seemed slightly more accurate than the OLED. Not sure if this was due to the calibration because my set seems to dial in color perfectly(Thanks to Chad B) . Motion definitely seemed better on the OLED.

For me it comes down to the depth and almost 3D like image that the OLED creates. If LG can figure out a firmware update to address the black anomalies, then I would suggest the OLED. I would wait for the flat models to come out later this year. Hopefully they can resolve these issues and we can enjoy a perfect 4k Blu Ray-HDR-OLED image .
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post #38 of 114 Old 07-12-2015, 04:41 PM
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Calibration Reports

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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
You have no basis for what you are saying. Nor do you have any idea how to read a calibration report, if you did you would not of posted.

Look at my calibration reports, and tell me where you see anything in those reports that would suggest any of the issues you have read about.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post35146322

I find your post very insulting and without any merit.
I'm sure you have read the same reports that I quoted, I did not say that Your "Specific TV" suffers from the abnormalities, that I mentioned, and without a comparison to every other competitor, I won't "write it off" as the "Best Color of any TV.
Of course if it has the best color "To You" that's all that matters.


Be that as it may, Don't you think that only "Silly Sally OLED models", might be a bit rare and hard to find/purchase?


Gary
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post #39 of 114 Old 07-12-2015, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Ken did you look at the calibration reports from the shoot out?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post35331914

The Sony's 940C LCD black level was measured by a reference K10-A meter at 0.013FL.
So there is no way the Sony can come even close to the OLED's black level of .0000FL, for that matter a Kuro or a VT/ZT60 with black level of .0012 or lower.

These are simply fact's, there is no way around this.
If you don't believe me then ask David the calibrator from the shoot out if those two measured black levels from the Sony and LG are not a big difference. They are.

ss
It's actually scary how my contrast ratio observation follows close to the measurement. For example, I have both Panasonic S64 and Samsung F5300B plasmas. Before buying the F5300B, I was banking on the fact that few movie contents will hit 50% APL that floating black of Samsung plasmas wouldn't be severe so it will still remain competitive to the Panasonics to some degree because its MLL was still fantastic. I was wrong. The measurement did not lie. Only in very few ultra low APL scenes did my Samsung F5300B come close to my Panasonic, thus, even with black level tweak, it was not competitive with my S64 for black level.

On the day I've first seen the Samsung JS9000 in a light controlled showroom, it was set up left to the Samsung F8500 and behind the VT60, so it was a great chance to compare. Prior to viewing, I already knew the lowest the JS9000 can get with Peak Illuminator/Smart LED was 0.002 fL, but being an edge-lit, I was doubtful it would really get that low for most scenes. I was shocked to say my observation was the same too. Every time Peak Illuminator was successful at rendering select pixels black, indeed, it was better than the F8500 and not far behind the VT60. An edge-lit having better on/off than the fabled F8500, and on high APL scenes too?! I didn't want to believe it, but my eyes had told otherwise. To me, the JS9000 was doing things an edge-lit LCD wasn't supposed to do. So, yes, I do find Peak Illuminator impressive to some degree.

Now for the JS9500. For a flagship LCD, boy, the JS9500 did have some disgusting contrast ratio. Its black level was so poor I thought I was looking at a glorified IPS FALD at some point. (the curves were definitely not helping) Then I realized Chad B has measured it as 0.024 fL and came to understand my eyes were not mistaken. It's actually the first time I've seen a VA panel rendering sky that poorly. It was not only worse than the 720p LG plasma I've once owned, it was also worse than the non-PSA Sony LCD I owned 6 years ago. Competitive to OLED? I was actually worried more about the JS9500 as it didn't even put up a fight against the EC9300. Samsung really needs to stop giving their VA panels sharp curves as VA LCDs have poor viewing angle and that hurts contrast ratio as I've observed.
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post #40 of 114 Old 07-12-2015, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 1959Dodge View Post
I'm sure you have read the same reports that I quoted, I did not say that Your "Specific TV" suffers from the abnormalities, that I mentioned, and without a comparison to every other competitor, I won't "write it off" as the "Best Color of any TV.
Of course if it has the best color "To You" that's all that matters.
I said as "good as it gets".
You now have mis quoited me twice.

None of what you say is true, or based on fact.

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Originally Posted by 1959Dodge View Post
Be that as it may, Don't you think that only "Silly Sally OLED models", might be a bit rare and hard to find/purchase?
Once more you are twisting and not saying anything that is true when it comes to what I am saying.
I have never said my OLED is better than anybody's OLED.
I have only showed folks what needs to be done to bring out the best in there EG9600.
Along with settings and real calibration reports to back up what I am saying.

Please explain to me how a measured black level of .013FL is even close to a measured black level of .0000FL, and why it is much better to have a 0 black level.

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post #41 of 114 Old 07-12-2015, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
I said as "good as it gets".
You now have mis quoited me twice.

None of what you say is true, or based on fact.



Once more you are twisting and not saying anything that is true when it comes to what I am saying.
I have never said my OLED is better than anybody's OLED.
I have only showed folks what needs to be done to bring out the best in there EG9600.
Along with settings and real calibration reports to back up what I am saying.

Please explain to me how a measured black level of .013FL is even close to a measured black level of .0000FL, and why it is much better to have a 0 black level.

At my age, I don't brag about my memory recall and I should have added "Paraphrasing", my error, but did you not (not saying you did) post a claim to the effect that only you can calibrate an Oled properly?, please excuse if I got "That one" wrong too.


Anyway, not here to argue, I was just suggesting to Ken that He will not change minds/opinions of those who are OLED fans and/or LED/LCD haters, so why bother? I just used you as an example, but there are many others as much of an OLED fan as yourself, and that's great.


I'm trying to find my "Perfect TV", if you and others have done so, then the "More Power to Ya"!!!!


Gary
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post #42 of 114 Old 07-12-2015, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by EdwinB View Post
When/if LG fixes the "dark edges" issue and brings the pricing on a more competitive level it is game over for LCD.


OLED is superior in every PQ category that really matters that it is no competition at all, the only reason why some of the FALD LCD's could keep up this year is mostly due to the uniformity flaw on the OLED.
Really? As a videophile I don't see it that way, but again these arguments are silly, since we won't convince each other. The average consumer, who will make or break OLED, surely won't see it that way.

OLED has the best black levels, but for most content, the best FALDs, at least the 940c, holds up quite well. Certainly without an A/B, most viewers, yes, even videophiles, would be very happy with the black levels of the Sony. They trump my F8500 plasma easily and edge out my Sharp Elite which was always known to have great black levels.

But here's the very important issue I've learned over the last few days. The HD upconversion on the Sony is superb, and better than what I've seen from the LG. I didn't realize how truly excellent the Sony's processing was until I had it in my house. At Robert's VE store, I got my first hint of that as we put an HD feed on all the sets. The Sony looked better.

Since the overwhelming amount of material we'll be watching will be in HD for quite some time to come, I'll glad take a very slight hit in black levels for the better HD upconversion processing.

Again, the bottom line is that both are great displays, but when I see anyone saying that one is so much better than the other, I know for sure it's nothing more than hyperbole.

I was at the shootout and saw both calibrated and playing a variety of content. Forgetting the darkened edges of the OLED, both displays were remarkably close in PQ.

To say either display was markedly better is just nonsense IMO. Now that I've had some quality time with the Sony, I firmly believe that. Two fabulous displays. Selling either one short is just lunacy. But hey, lunacy on AVS is nothing new.
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post #43 of 114 Old 07-12-2015, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Ken did you look at the calibration reports from the shoot out?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post35331914

The Sony's 940C LCD black level was measured by a reference K10-A meter at 0.013FL.
So there is no way the Sony can come even close to the OLED's black level of .0000FL, for that matter a Kuro or a VT/ZT60 with black level of .0012 or lower.

These are simply fact's, there is no way around this.
If you don't believe me then ask David the calibrator from the shoot out if those two measured black levels from the Sony and LG are not a big difference. They are.

ss
Peter, you are 100% wrong. Do you understand how FALD works? Do you understand with such a device you can measure several different black levels? Do you know the number you quoted above was the native black level of the panel with no engagement of FALD?

Every owner of a FALD display engages FALD. Obviously. The actual black levels with FALD engaged are quite excellent and hugely different than your quoted number. Those numbers show why most at the shootout saw no large differences in black level. Was the OLED better in this respect? Yes, but in most dark scenes the differences were not major at all. As I've said, and I firmly believe, almost all videophiles would be very happy with the Sony's black levels.

So, with that said, here's the real picture of the Sony's black levels from Chad B's review of the Sony 940c:

"Contrast ratio was measured with 10% size, 22% APL windows. The native panel contrast ratio measured 4232:1 (57.9 fL white, .0137 fL black) without the aid of the local dimming. With local dimming on high or medium, the contrast ratio was so good it was unmeasurable. With the local dimming on low, it was 86363:1 (57.69 fL, .00067fL). This is extremely impressive performance. Setting the local dimming to high compressed highlights in some test patterns, but everything looked great with it set to medium, with even dark images showing outstanding contrast."

As I said before, this is why I'm spending less time in these threads. Some are interested more in preconceived notions and hyperbole and less in facts and actual observations.

My normally blasƩ wife commented on several occasions that the Sony's picture looked almost 3D. This is due to the remarkable depth of the picture. That's exactly what I saw the very first time I saw the display at Magnolia. Of course with 4K content, it's elevated to an entirely different level.

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post #44 of 114 Old 07-13-2015, 01:56 AM
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Really? As a videophile I don't see it that way, but again these arguments are silly, since we won't convince each other. The average consumer, who will make or break OLED, surely won't see it that way.

I'm obviously exaggerating here Ken.


However, I truly believe that OLED is the superior display technology compared to LCD. If there was no "black edges" issue and the prices were on the same level then I am confident that 9 out of 10 videophiles would go for an OLED, including you and me.


As for upscaling, personally I do not care too much about that as I leave that up to my Oppo instead of the display.


And now that you have "pulled the trigger", enjoy your new 940c!
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post #45 of 114 Old 07-13-2015, 02:49 AM
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Ken, I've read your posts on here for some time and I respect your opinion so I'm not going to criticise your views on the Sony. In fact, I haven't seen one so can't comment. Enjoy your TV mate.

I do make various comments in the article about how edge lit and FALD displays work and they simply cannot do black properly. They cannot have the lowest black and highest white in a zone at the same time, it's just not possible.
LCDs can produce a good picture no doubt but they cannot ever be as good as a TV that can control each pixel individually.

Although the article compared the edge lit JS9000 with the OLED, Steve has calibrated the JS9500 (as well as pretty much all other current TVs) and he hasn't seen anything that is better than his OLED.
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post #46 of 114 Old 07-13-2015, 04:53 AM
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Vism, once you see a properly calibrated Sony next to a 9600, let me know what you think. I would not have considered an LCD prior to the Sony and my thoughts were just like yours.

Having had the opportunity to see these sets side by side at the shootout, and sitting in the first row, I had the opportunity to see how well all this theory translated to reality.

I too was a firm believer (as you've seen in my posts), in the precision of pixel to pixel control. As great as that all sounds, when we saw the reality of the situation, it was a whole lot closer than most would have believed (and I'm not even factoring in the obvious darkening issues of the OLED). It's also why some of the experts chose the Sony over the LG.

The fact is, as someone who is very sensitive to black levels (you'd know that if you saw the displays I've owned over the last 5 years), there is no question in my mind that the Sony's black levels are better than any plasma or FALD LCD that's come before...even the highly respected Kuros that I owned or the Sharp Elite that I still own.

The only display that can do better with blacks is OLED. But as seen by the eye, that visual margin is not so great as most here would think. In fact for most material I'd call the Sony's blacks 'very OLEDish'. Chad's calibration numbers clearly tell us why.

I have learned over the years that ANSI CR is not to be relied on in the real world. Most professionals know this. Having the deepest black and whitest white on a portion of the screen at the same time, is significantly constrained by the pupils of our eyes. The bright white causes our pupils to constrict which reduces our ability to appreciate those darkest blacks. It's the same reason we can't see subtle shadow details while viewing in a bright room.

This is why the limitation of FALD is not quite as 'limiting' as some here may think. And let's face it, the other aspects of LG OLEDs are not that great. Color accuracy is not so highly touted. Certainly processing isn't either...and the dark sides? Those all contribute to PQ.

The bottom line for me is these are both great displays, but for me the 940c provides:

* Superior upconversion and processing
* Blacks that are rich, deep, close enough to OLED and never pull me out of the picture. Watching my own 4K videos, the colors seem more as I remembered them than I've seen on the OLED.
* 10" of additional screen real estate that more than makes up for slight differences in perceived black levels. THAT creates a much more engaging picture experience, especially with the great black levels. Wow, don't minimize screen size!!
* Much better future-proofing with far greater brightness capabilities, should content providers finally convince me that HDR and WCG are something to get excited about.

Finally, after living a few days with the 940c and enjoying the benefits I stated above, I really don't think I'd go to a 65" OLED, even if it no longer displayed the dark edges.

Now if you presented me with a 75" OLED with no dark edges, Sony-type picture processing and upconversion, at the same price as the Sony, well then maybe I'd have gone the OLED route.

Either way, it's fantastic that we have such great choices! Race to the bottom? Not so much if you shop for the best displays available today. IMO, they are better than anything that came before.
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post #47 of 114 Old 07-13-2015, 05:25 AM
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Per my discussion, I AM talking about FALD LCDs. Hello?

As for the # of zones, the shootout proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's not just about the number, but also how the manufacturer implements those zones with their software. The Sony has less dimming zones than the Samsung, yet it clearly had less blooming. Now that I have it in the house, I would say blooming is a total non-issue anywhere in the sweet spot.
Because of its native contrast the X940C can do with less zone dimming and theirfor has less blooming. Sony has always been thriftily with zones on its FALDs. In case it had less native contrast sony would just add a few zones max. btw ChadB, who reviewed the X940C, stated that ''i wish it had more zones''. Why would he say that?
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post #48 of 114 Old 07-13-2015, 08:51 AM
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Because of its native contrast the X940C can do with less zone dimming and theirfor has less blooming. Sony has always been thriftily with zones on its FALDs. In case it had less native contrast sony would just add a few zones max. btw ChadB, who reviewed the X940C, stated that ''i wish it had more zones''. Why would he say that?
He said that because the performance was so stellar with what it had, he could only have imagined it with even more zones. Perfectly plausible statement and perhaps with more zones, even the very minor blooming would be gone. I agree with what you said regarding native contrast and the # of zones to make the display look very good.

As we saw at the shootout, the Sony had almost non-existent blooming and was considerably better than the Samsung with its greater number of zones.

In the 4 days I've had the set, I've only noticed extremely minor blooming in very bright credits on a jet black background. I haven't seen it with any normal content. In fact there was one time I did think I saw blooming in a TV show which showed a large full moon. There was a bit of haze surrounding the moon. I then went over to my Sharp Elite (known to have virtually no blooming because of the way its dimming zones work...never fully shutting off). The Elite showed precisely the same degree of haze around the moon in precisely the same area. So this was obviously the way the scene was shot.

Sony has done a remarkable job.
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post #49 of 114 Old 07-13-2015, 11:12 AM
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He said that because the performance was so stellar with what it had, he could only have imagined it with even more zones. Perfectly plausible statement and perhaps with more zones, even the very minor blooming would be gone. I agree with what you said regarding native contrast and the # of zones to make the display look very good.
If he wanted more zone dimming he wanted better blacks and less blooming..the kind of blacks and minimized blooming the non existent Vizio Reference Series suppost to have..That is what i make of it.
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As we saw at the shootout, the Sony had almost non-existent blooming and was considerably better than the Samsung with its greater number of zones.
Yet lots of people felt that they were close in performance, which is another odd thing.
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In the 4 days I've had the set, I've only noticed extremely minor blooming in very bright credits on a jet black background. I haven't seen it with any normal content. In fact there was one time I did think I saw blooming in a TV show which showed a large full moon. There was a bit of haze surrounding the moon. I then went over to my Sharp Elite (known to have virtually no blooming because of the way its dimming zones work...never fully shutting off). The Elite showed precisely the same degree of haze around the moon in precisely the same area. So this was obviously the way the scene was shot.

Sony has done a remarkable job.
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post #50 of 114 Old 07-13-2015, 11:44 AM
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This is all silly. OLED without issues is going to trump any fald LCD set. You simply can't match the per pixel ability of OLED black with something like 100-150 zones. You simply can't and there WILL be times where this will show up in content.

On the other hand, it is obvious good fald sets can provide a great looking image so it isn't like OLED blows them away as though the fald set is some junky 10 year old lcd.

No idea why people feel the need to argue such trivial stuff and if people feel fald lcd is good enough and can compete then great. If people do not feel it does and OLED is vastly superior then great as well.

Me, I'd much rather have an OLED set without issues than the best fald set but I'd also no doubt be very content with something like the 940c.
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post #51 of 114 Old 07-13-2015, 11:49 AM
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If he wanted more zone dimming he wanted better blacks and less blooming..the kind of blacks and minimized blooming the non existent Vizio Reference Series suppost to have..That is what i make of it.
No, when you look at the black level measurements he got, they were superb. I think he was looking for improvements in blooming.
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Yet lots of people felt that they were close in performance, which is another odd thing.
I think much depends on where you were sitting and how careful you were when walking around and observing the issue. It's very easy to see the difference in the retailers.
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post #52 of 114 Old 07-13-2015, 11:53 AM
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This is all silly. OLED without issues is going to trump any fald LCD set. You simply can't match the per pixel ability of OLED black with something like 100-150 zones. You simply can't and there WILL be times where this will show up in content.

On the other hand, it is obvious good fald sets can provide a great looking image so it isn't like OLED blows them away as though the fald set is some junky 10 year old lcd.

No idea why people feel the need to argue such trivial stuff and if people feel fald lcd is good enough and can compete then great. If people do not feel it does and OLED is vastly superior then great as well.

Me, I'd much rather have an OLED set without issues than the best fald set but I'd also no doubt be very content with something like the 940c.
Just keep in mind that video processing and upscaling is very much part of the PQ equation. We'll be looking at HD for quite some time to come.

The Sony clearly does a better job with that than the LG. So IMO I'll trade a bit of black level (especially when you start with blacks as good as the Sony) for the superior processing...to say nothing of an additional 10".

And as it stands now, the LG OLEDs clearly have issues on virtually every set they've made. It does seem the HD OLEDs are better in terms of uniformity than their UHD siblings.
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post #53 of 114 Old 07-13-2015, 12:50 PM
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Peter, you are 100% wrong.

So, with that said, here's the real picture of the Sony's black levels from Chad B's review of the Sony 940c:

"Contrast ratio was measured with 10% size, 22% APL windows. The native panel contrast ratio measured 4232:1 (57.9 fL white, .0137 fL black) without the aid of the local dimming. With local dimming on high or medium,
I am quoting David and his measured black levels on the 940C at the shoot out.
Understand David uses a reference meter to take those measurements, Chad uses a D3 meter non reference. Chads reference meter that he uses to make a profile matrix for his D3 meter needed a calibration.

You also said you don't like the word "Tricks" when referring to the black's on the 960C. That is exactly what you are referring to when you reference Chad's post.

I suggest you learn how to read calibration reports, and also reread David's calibration report once you understand how to read a calibration report.

So as usual you are 100% incorrect, when saying I was., . Please edit your post.

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No, when you look at the black level measurements he got, they were superb. I think he was looking for improvements in blooming.
You need to set LED Dynamic Control/Local Dimming to Medium on the X940C, that is what ChadB would suggest a owner should do. One uses that option to improve blacks. That is what the Local Dimming stuff is all about. 84 zones to do that job is not really much even if it was done very efficiently. Best would be a few million zones like OLED and Plasma, for LEDs suggestions have been to use a thousand zones.
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post #55 of 114 Old 07-13-2015, 02:06 PM
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Just an observation but the thread is about the JS9000 vs the EG960.
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It's all about the 940c, cuz Ken says so

Really, this is just another OLED vs LCD thread. It seems the 940c is supperior to the JS Samsung series, so it's basically down to 940c vs. OLED for king of TV. Id never thought an LCD would be close to an OLED but I still have to see the 940c, so until then, I'm keeping silent.

Gotta find a demo of a 940c in Canada.
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post #57 of 114 Old 07-13-2015, 03:50 PM
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I am quoting David and his measured black levels on the 940C at the shoot out.
Understand David uses a reference meter to take those measurements, Chad uses a D3 meter non reference. Chads reference meter that he uses to make a profile matrix for his D3 meter needed a calibration.

You also said you don't like the word "Tricks" when referring to the black's on the 960C. That is exactly what you are referring to when you reference Chad's post.

I suggest you learn how to read calibration reports, and also reread David's calibration report once you understand how to read a calibration report.

So as usual you are 100% incorrect, when saying I was., . Please edit your post.
Once again, you are 100% wrong. Period. And as usual you are 100% condescending. Yes, I know how to read calibration charts, but it's you that doesn't seem to understand one CR from another or what they mean. I find this surprising from the guy who obviously thinks of himself as the foremost calibrator of our time.

You obviously do NOT understand how FALD works. Your statements couldn't make that more obvious.

The measurements that David took was the NATIVE CR OF THE PANEL. What part of that don't you understand? FALD was NOT engaged. Those are not the CR #s the eye sees when FALD is engaged. You taking the lowest number you can find does not change the black levels of the 940c with FALD engaged. It does not Peter. It simply does not.

Did you even notice that David posted ONE CR number and Chad posted multiple CR #s ? Do you have any idea why? Apparently not. Chad posted native, FALD at medium and FALD at high.

Don't you notice that Chad's measurements with FALD turned OFF are virtually identical to David's? That's because those numbers are measuring the same thing! Chad posted ADDITIONAL numbers with the FALD engaged. Those are the ones you wish would go away. Aside from the actual numbers, did you also notice Chad's written description of the contrast the Sony is capable of? Apparently not. Do you think he would have used that descriptive if the best the Sony was capable of was the native CR? Geesh! Unreal.

With FALD turned ON, you'll see what the real CR numbers & black levels look like. It's THOSE numbers that are precisely what I'm seeing and why I keep saying the black levels on the Sony are truly excellent. Better than any plasma or LCD to come before it.

You are determined to knock anything not OLED and are being disingenuous by ignoring the truth, but I can be objective about both. Yes, OLED is still capable of better black levels, but the black levels of the 940c are so good, I don't miss the OLED blacks.

Aside from that, the Sony processing is much better than the LG and the HD is sharper and cleaner with the superior upscaling of the Sony.
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Boy Boys...Play nice. In all honesty a calibration report means nothing to the average person. Trust your eyes and go with the set that you perceive as superior. Stop reading and start looking!
Great advise Does not matter what other think, it matters what you think
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post #59 of 114 Old 07-13-2015, 03:54 PM
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It's all about the 940c, cuz Ken says so
What does that even mean? Geesh!
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Really, this is just another OLED vs LCD thread. It seems the 940c is supperior to the JS Samsung series, so it's basically down to 940c vs. OLED for king of TV. Id never thought an LCD would be close to an OLED but I still have to see the 940c, so until then, I'm keeping silent.

Gotta find a demo of a 940c in Canada.
Your statement above is not what I'd call 'keeping silent'. Whatever.
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What does that even mean? Geesh!


Your statement above is not what I'd call 'keeping silent'. Whatever.
LOL. I did that wink icon...Common Ken, you are awesome. Picking on you, is what this forum is about, or didn't you get the memo? How dare you voice YOUR OPINION, and say that you prefer the 940c (LCD) vs an OLED. Your account should be banned for life :k iss:

I haven't said anything bad about the 940c have I? Geesh! You yourself said you weren't considering an LCD until you saw the 940c in action at the shootout. Why should I be any different? I'm not bad mouthing the Sony, and I'm actually looking forward to seeing it in person. If it's really that good, then maybe I'll join the LCD apocalypse. LOL.
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