Comparison of LG EG960V OLED VS Samsung 55â?łJS9000 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 71Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 114 Old 07-03-2015, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 116
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Comparison of LG EG960V OLED VS Samsung 55″JS9000

I'm not sure if this has been posted already. If it has I apologize, But here goes. A great and excellent written article IMO! It not only discusses the performance. It discusses the technology between the two TVs as well the limitations and importance of properly set up the TV's.

Some of my favorite quotes:
"It is easy to make the image look a mess on an OLED set, it needs very careful setup to get the very best performance from it.

"One thing is for sure, OLED ruthlessly shows up the flaws in poor content."

"Both of these TVs are very good products and there is no doubt that the Samsung is one of the best LCDs you can buy. However, in so many areas the OLED is just better”.

"I have owned every nearly every high end plasma, and as far as I’m concerned OLED produces the best motion I’ve seen since CRT."

"For me, even with its minor flaws the LG EG960 OLED is the best TV that has ever been available to consumers."

"Contrast, dynamic range and native colour performance pixel speed response are far more important to image quality and OLED is hands down superior when set up correctly in every performance department. And OLED does need careful calibration."

http://www.displayandsoundcalibration.com/comparison-of-lg-eg960v-oled-vs-samsung-55js9000

Thoughts?

Last edited by AB4OLED; 07-03-2015 at 08:12 AM. Reason: Added addtional quote.
AB4OLED is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 114 Old 07-03-2015, 08:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Latinoheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 4,350
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1486 Post(s)
Liked: 1476
The OLED is superior to the Edgelit PERIOD.
Morning5 and AB4OLED like this.

Media room- 65" Panasonic FZ950 OLED, Pioneer Elite VSX-90, Panasonic UBD-820 4K, Klipsch Gallery G28's, Klipsch Sub 12, Klipsch RS-52 II, Optik HD cable

Living room- Sony 4K 79XBRX900B, Onkyo RC-360,HTPC,Klipsch Reference R-62II,Rc52II,PS4
Gaming room -Panasonic ST60, PS3, Wii
Latinoheat is online now  
post #3 of 114 Old 07-03-2015, 04:53 PM
 
conan48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Igloo
Posts: 2,406
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 349
Wow. This guy seems to pretty much say almost EXACTLY what I said regarding motion on the OLED vs. LCD vs. Plasma. It's rare to see someone who doesn't just blindly state that the motion resolution test is the end all of motion testing but only a small fraction of what should be tested.

Here is some stuff I posted the past few days:

Quote:
The experts gave the LG a lower score because they were more focused on test patters, where the LG only scored 300-400 lines on the test, while the LCDs scored full 1080 lines because of dark frame insertion.

The "average" (non-expert) viewer I think will be more bothered by the slow pixel response of LCD, which can/will leave colour trails, fringing, etc, even though it's passing 1080 lines vs. 400 for OLED. Let me give you an example, you are watching hockey on an LCD (with DFI) and even though you are getting less sample and hold blur, you will see a black jersey leave a trail onto the white ice, or the puck will leave a dark trail on the ice, etc. The OLED, even with it's sample and hold blur will have absolutely ZERO colour trails, fringing, etc.

VA LCD panels can have as high as 21ms pixel lag! in certain situations. There have been many debates on OLED motion and I fall into the category of being much more bothered by slow pixel response time, then sample and hold, and if this shootout proves anything, I think it's that the average person agrees with me, or the results don't make any sense.

FYI, the LG with motion smoothing settings engaged but set to zero, which will have to soap opera effect, will get upto 700 lines motion res and of course still have perfect pixel response.

Another example is DLP projection which is faster then even OLED (don't hold me to that but it refreshes at 2000hz) but still suffers from sample and hold and only passes 300 line on the motion test, BUT is considered the gold standard for motion. The newer LCD and LCOS projectors can do 1080 lines on the moving test pattern with DFI as well, but literally everyone in the projector forum prefers DLP because of its fast response time.

I've recently seen the Samsung 65 JS9500 and it doesn't hold a candle to the motion on the 55" EC9300 OLED, even though it's technically better on paper. Don't trust just numbers, or a single outdated motion test. Let your eyes be the judge of which set has better motion. BTW, WHY DON'T THEY TEST PIXEL RESPONSE FOR REVIEWS AND THIS SHOOTOUT! there are numerous ways to test this with simple test patterns, such as a white box moving over a black background at different speeds (run this test on an LCD, and then tell me it's better for motion then OLED) The main thing I'm getting at is motion is more then just sample and hold, it's a combination of sample and hold and PIXEL RESPONSE, but NOBODY TESTS FOR PIXEL RESPONSE!

Quote:
With the motion setting on the LG set to 0 (debur and dejudder) there is no artifacts at all, and I'm not really sure how it's improving the motion res with a setting of zero, but it does.

Plasma does pass 1080 lines because of PWM, but you are right. Dithering, colour fringing on high contrast images, and breakup are very annoying. double judder anyone?

Quote:
Yes OLED. OLED already has the fastest pixel refresh of any technology, but what causes the blur is caused by the way the human eye "blends" the image when it moves. Google Sample and hold effect for TVs. There needs to be an artificial flicker added to the display to break up the image so that our eyes don't see the loss of resolution. Man this stuff is hard to explain, LOL.

Basically, LG needs to add some sort of "dark frame insertion" and OLED will not suffer from any sample and hold effect, as well as having the fastest pixel response time, OLED is/will be the best for motion.

I personally already think the LG OLED is the best display right now for motion. I don't mind sample and hold blur so much. But, the really slow pixel response time of LCD BUGS me ALOT. Slow pixel response is often confused with sample and hold type blur.

Ex, of slow pixel response would be smearing of colours, fringing, trailing, etc. Also, OLED scored very high on motion from the shootout, which I'm guessing is that most people are more bothered by slow pixel response then sample and hold blur, and what people assumed was sample and hold blur was actually slow pixel response.

I've seen many threads over the years where people complained about trailing and smearing on LCD, and they always referred to it as "motion blur".

Quote:
Yes, an OLED only passes 300 lines on the MOTION TEST. Find me 1 complaint about motion with ACTUAL CONTENT, either from a reviewer or owner. Most reviews only mention the motion res test, which by the way was specifically created to favor plasma, but fail to run other tests such as image smearing/trailing motion tests, or phophor lag tests. These additional tests would clearly show that LED LCD with scanning backlight and plasma, clearly have some serious motion issues and they all pass 1080 lines on the "motion resolution test". Don't drink the motion test coolaid and believe that it's the only measurement for great motion.

I'm one of the pickiest SOBs when it comes to motion and almost every tech other then CRT has caused me issues with motion. I have every motion test known to man, and ran them all on the LG OLED and many LCDs, Plasmas, DLPs, and LCOS projectors and I can definitely say that overall the OLED is only second to CRT. **** the one single motion test they do run. They should test overall motion with many more varied tests.

BTW, as a few reviews have mentioned, it's possible to run the LG OLED with Dejudder and Deblur at setting of 0 which raises the motion res to over 600 lines and doesn't add SOE at all. NOt sure how they do this technically, and one would assume frame interpolation but their is no evidence of SOE with these settings, so I'd say the motion res right now is 600 lines for ALL CONTENT.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to have some kind of Dark frame insertion in the future, but as of now the motion is GREAT on OLED and I don't think people will have any issues what so ever. I will be certainly buying the upcoming 4K 65", even if the motion res is still only 600.

Here is a snippet from the article:


Quote:
I have owned every nearly every high end plasma, and as far as I’m concerned OLED produces the best motion I’ve seen since CRT.

Quote:
Being a plasma owner, I was able to check out some sports content on my VT65 when I returned home. It wasn’t clearer, it didn’t have less motion blur. I would choose the OLED over the LCD or the plasma as it presented the most watchable picture during motion.

We hear a lot about motion resolution test used by calibrators and reviewers but it’s just a test, not real content, and it’s completely outdated today. LCDs and OLED only manage 300 lines but the test works a certain speed; reduce the speed and LCDs/OLEDs resolution goes up, increase the speed and plasmas will not look good either. These tests used to make makes plasmas look good which is why it was used by manufacturers as a stick to beat LCDs with. While a particular speed of motion may give an advantage to one technology, with real content you can’t see much difference. It may be different with 60Hz content but on a plasma at 50Hz and p24, it’s all double/quad edges and judder; throw in the DFC and it becomes just a total mess. Despite the lower test figures, you’ll get a cleaner, clearer picture on the OLED“

There is much more to this than line resolution during motion. Pixel response of LCD is much slower than OLED, however using this pixel test it will produce 1080i with BFI engaged. However this slow response time will leaves colour trails, fringing etc., even though it’s passing 1080 lines vs.300 – 400 for OLED.

An example, you are watching fast moving sport like football on the Samsung and you have BFI engaged you will see less sample and hold blur, you will see white shorts leave a trail onto the grass. The OLED, even with sample and hold will have absolutely no colour trails, fringing, etc. VA LCD panels have as high pixel lag.

There have been many debates on OLED motion and they keep rearing their head.

Slow pixel response time has far more impact on smooth motion than sample and hold. If you set the LG motion flow setting de-blur and de-judder both to 5 it will create the opera effect and under the usual motion tests will give you around 600 lines motion res and of course still have perfect pixel response. So if you have the motion flow off you will get 300 lines of motion resolution, the pixel response time will still be perfect and because of this with real world content the motion on the OLED is far smoother than with any LCD or Plasma.

Having these sets side by side, the JS9000 the native motion is much smoother from the OLED even though the LCD is technically better on paper. These tests are just numbers, from an outdated motion test. I’ve always said trust your own eyes, no one else has yours and you don’t have any one else’s. Motion is more than line number resolution pixel response time is more important and this is another area where LCD can’t get near OLED’s performance. Some comments from people including reviewers say that the OLED motion can appear a little choppy. Well what you are seeing with motion is a collection of stills shown quickly, the fast pixel response time is simply able to produce these stills on screen quicker. And if there is movement it is not being smoothed by slower pixel response time. In fact OLED is producing those stills more faithfully.

http://www.displaymate.com/LG_OLED_TV_ShootOut_1.htm

Check out this link which does a much better job at testing OLED motion then most professionals.

"Response Time and Motion Blur
Motion Blur is a well known issue with LCDs. It arises because the liquid crystal, which is the active element within an LCD, is unable to change its orientation and transmission rapidly enough when the picture changes from one frame to the next. OLEDs, as solid state emissive devices, have very fast Response Times: LG specs the OLED Response Time at 0.1ms, which is more than a factor of 10 faster than LCDs. For a simple test of Motion Blur we photographed a DisplayMate Test Pattern moving at a very fast 1352 pixels per second using a Nikon DSLR camera with a shutter speed of 1/250th second, which is less than the display’s 120 Hz refresh cycle time. Figure 4 has a screen shot for the OLED TV and a similar screen shot for an LCD TV from a 2011 study. Both TVs have a 120 Hz Refresh Rate. On the LCD TV screen shot it is possible to make out latent images from more than 5 prior refresh cycles. The OLED TV screen shot shows a single sharp image. See our LCD Response Time and Motion Blur article for more details.
OLED TV Test Result: The OLED screen shot shows no visible Motion Blur or latent images from any previous refresh cycles, so the Response Time is visually indistinguishable from zero with no visible display based Motion Blur."
Desk., StinDaWg, KOF and 4 others like this.
conan48 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 114 Old 07-04-2015, 02:56 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Excellent post Conan, thank you!
Actually OLED technology is perfectly capable of scoring 1080 lines during the commonly used motion test, even with no BFI. It just needs 500fps video signal. So the problem is not with the sample and hold method, but with the low frame rate used at the present time.

I have no idea why the industry wants to push 8k (static) resolution, but refuse to raise the frame rate of the content to at least 240fps...
Can somebody ask Joe Kane about this?
Desk. likes this.

Last edited by UltraBlack; 07-04-2015 at 03:01 AM.
UltraBlack is offline  
post #5 of 114 Old 07-04-2015, 08:13 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 33,190
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7370 Post(s)
Liked: 8247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post
The OLED is superior to the Edgelit PERIOD.
Yes, but of course it's a bit silly to compare an edge lit with OLED. The far better comparison would be to the test the best of the FALD sets to OLED.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #6 of 114 Old 07-04-2015, 08:29 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Yes, but of course it's a bit silly to compare an edge lit with OLED. The far better comparison would be to the test the best of the FALD sets to OLED.
The problem is, Ken, try and find a 55 Fald or even a 60".
So at least "to me", the comparison of OLED to the "Best" edge lit
is valuable.


I know I may give up some things, not going with OLED, alto blacks are not "that big a deal" to me, as long as the picture has great contrast, (day or night), not a lot of artifacts, blooming, DSE,etc etc, which strangely enough my 9 year old Sharp does not have.


I've really never owed an Edge lit TV, both my TV's The Sharp and a 40" TV are Fald CCFL's~~~~It makes me wonder if those are better than many of these edge lit TV's, or even the OLDE 9600, as I have no dark edges, nor have I seen any "Motion complaints" that I read about , with all these new TV's, including the OLED


Anyway, come autumn, I will definitely decide on which TV and it will be a 60", I will just have to see how they compare to my Sharp and what compromises I'm willing to make.


PS, the new 60" Samsung JS7000 claims to be "backlit", but not much info out on it yet.


Gary
1959Dodge is offline  
post #7 of 114 Old 07-04-2015, 08:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Latinoheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 4,350
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1486 Post(s)
Liked: 1476
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Yes, but of course it's a bit silly to compare an edge lit with OLED. The far better comparison would be to the test the best of the FALD sets to OLED.
Agreed but there are many folks on the forum that want confirmation.
Morning5 and losservatore like this.

Media room- 65" Panasonic FZ950 OLED, Pioneer Elite VSX-90, Panasonic UBD-820 4K, Klipsch Gallery G28's, Klipsch Sub 12, Klipsch RS-52 II, Optik HD cable

Living room- Sony 4K 79XBRX900B, Onkyo RC-360,HTPC,Klipsch Reference R-62II,Rc52II,PS4
Gaming room -Panasonic ST60, PS3, Wii
Latinoheat is online now  
post #8 of 114 Old 07-04-2015, 09:07 AM
 
conan48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Igloo
Posts: 2,406
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraBlack View Post
Excellent post Conan, thank you!
Actually OLED technology is perfectly capable of scoring 1080 lines during the commonly used motion test, even with no BFI. It just needs 500fps video signal. So the problem is not with the sample and hold method, but with the low frame rate used at the present time.

I have no idea why the industry wants to push 8k (static) resolution, but refuse to raise the frame rate of the content to at least 240fps...
Can somebody ask Joe Kane about this?
Thats easy to answer. One big reason is MONEY. Do you know how much money it would cost to render a movie, or special effects type TV show at 240fps....

Once you go past 24fps, you lose the "film" look. We are so used to 24fps, that anything higher and it feels almost too real. Ex, they filmed the hobbit movies at 48fps, and you could see them at either 48fps or 24fps at the cinema. Most people disliked the 48fps version as it looked more like a stage play and looked "fake". Even though the 48fps version dramatically reduced judder, and made to movie easier on the eyes, our brains are so used to 24fps that it doesn't want to accept any other frame rate for movies. Why did we even start the film industry on 24fps? Because it was the lowest number they could get a away with, and still have somewhat decent motion that didn't look like everything was sped up.

For video content, it would be great if they went up to whatever number they decided. 240 - 1000fps would be great but then you would need new cameras, and other equipment. Nobody upgrades until they have too, and I'm pretty sure we will be stuck at 4k 60fps for many years.
conan48 is offline  
post #9 of 114 Old 07-04-2015, 09:11 AM
 
conan48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Igloo
Posts: 2,406
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Yes, but of course it's a bit silly to compare an edge lit with OLED. The far better comparison would be to the test the best of the FALD sets to OLED.
True, but that would only really help with darker scenes. Once the the scene is bright you are left with the static contrast ratio....so I think all the results are valid for everything except the black level tests. Things like motion, colour, and three dimensionality will still favor OLED vs. an FALD LCD.
KOF likes this.
conan48 is offline  
post #10 of 114 Old 07-04-2015, 11:59 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 33,190
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7370 Post(s)
Liked: 8247
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post
True, but that would only really help with darker scenes. Once the the scene is bright you are left with the static contrast ratio....so I think all the results are valid for everything except the black level tests. Things like motion, colour, and three dimensionality will still favor OLED vs. an FALD LCD.
Well yes, but as an owner of an OLED, you know better than most how important good blacks are. That's why I emphasized FALD.

As for color, you really can't generalize about color accuracy. Some reviews have dinged OLEDs for color accuracy (especially with broken CMS controls) and some reviews praise some LCDs for great color accuracy. So it really depends on which model of LCD we're talking about.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #11 of 114 Old 07-04-2015, 02:24 PM
 
conan48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Igloo
Posts: 2,406
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Well yes, but as an owner of an OLED, you know better than most how important good blacks are. That's why I emphasized FALD.

As for color, you really can't generalize about color accuracy. Some reviews have dinged OLEDs for color accuracy (especially with broken CMS controls) and some reviews praise some LCDs for great color accuracy. So it really depends on which model of LCD we're talking about.
True about colour accuracy.

I agree with you about FALD and black levels, thats why I said the only part of the review that doesn't really apply would be the black scene testing. Everything else about the comparison would be valid even if it was vs a FALD set. FALD only benefits dark scenes on LCD.
conan48 is offline  
post #12 of 114 Old 07-06-2015, 02:17 AM
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post
Agreed but there are many folks on the forum that want confirmation.
Even the best FALD will not even compare to the cheapest oled.

Fald by it's very nature will cause blooming artifacts simply because it's not possible to unintentionally light the surrounding black level unless you have as much zones active as the pixels themselves, that would cost more money than oled itself.
Brittany Menton is offline  
post #13 of 114 Old 07-07-2015, 11:47 PM
KOF
AVS Forum Special Member
 
KOF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,187
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 283 Post(s)
Liked: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post
True about colour accuracy.

FALD only benefits dark scenes on LCD.
Mm hmm. A FALD with all zones on is pretty much equivalent to an edge-lit, and full black blocks are hard to come by. I've compared the JS9500 with the JS8500 that was left of it, and the JU7100 that was right of it, and if it weren't for HDR highlighting, the JS9500 doesn't really stand out against the cheaper Samsung LCDs.
KOF is offline  
post #14 of 114 Old 07-08-2015, 03:48 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 33,190
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7370 Post(s)
Liked: 8247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brittany Menton View Post
Even the best FALD will not even compare to the cheapest oled.

Fald by it's very nature will cause blooming artifacts simply because it's not possible to unintentionally light the surrounding black level unless you have as much zones active as the pixels themselves, that would cost more money than oled itself.
Funny, because at the shootout they most certainly did.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #15 of 114 Old 07-09-2015, 03:24 PM
 
David_B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: delete me
Posts: 992
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Actually Douglas Trumble has a method to make high rate motion pictures that also has the motion blur needed for the film look

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk
David_B is offline  
post #16 of 114 Old 07-10-2015, 04:08 AM
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Funny, because at the shootout they most certainly did.
Is that why the oled won?

That comment I stated was directed towards the black level capability.
losservatore likes this.
Brittany Menton is offline  
post #17 of 114 Old 07-10-2015, 12:12 PM
KOF
AVS Forum Special Member
 
KOF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,187
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 283 Post(s)
Liked: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brittany Menton View Post
Is that why the oled won?

That comment I stated was directed towards the black level capability.
Black level capability is composed of two factors : on/off black and ANSI

What you've mentioned previous with regards to blooming falls under the former. And FALDs are very good at the former too. I've seen the JS9500 and for one lacking so many dimming zones, the JS9500 certainly did admirally controlling blooming. Local dimming plus Peak Illuminator working together in tendum did produce some lovely result, although I could still see blooming.

Where the JS9500 becomes a trainwreck is in ANSI performance. FALDs usually have mediocre ANSI but the JS9500 was the new low. Its ANSI is absolutely hideous I clearly thought for fully lit zones, my 7 year old non-PSA Sony LCD was far superior. (and I'm not speaking out of thin air either, as my Sony does have twice the measured ANSI performance of the JS9500) The JS9500's saving grace really comes from HDR and color accuracy.
KOF is offline  
post #18 of 114 Old 07-10-2015, 07:40 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 33,190
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7370 Post(s)
Liked: 8247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brittany Menton View Post
Is that why the oled won?

That comment I stated was directed towards the black level capability.
And many at the shootout, including some of the pros, thought it was crazy the OLED won with the defect we all saw.

I went in thinking I would vote the OLED 'best in show', but objectively there was no way in the world I could do that.

The very black level capability the OLED exhibits, is seriously marred by the black bars at low luminance levels. No getting around that.
Turrican4D likes this.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #19 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 116
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
And many at the shootout, including some of the pros, thought it was crazy the OLED won with the defect we all saw.

I went in thinking I would vote the OLED 'best in show', but objectively there was no way in the world I could do that.

The very black level capability the OLED exhibits, is seriously marred by the black bars at low luminance levels . No getting around that.
And what about the LED back lit tv's not ever being able to reach true black levels throughout the entire screen. Or how about having to be seated dead center in order to view its best potential. I guess it's ok for anyone who always watch tv alone. So that's at least 3 defects to OLED's 1 which only shows up very infrequently during actual viewing of amazing picture quality. Picture quality which is widely considered the best ever.
AB4OLED is offline  
post #20 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 01:19 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 33,190
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7370 Post(s)
Liked: 8247
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB4OLED View Post
And what about the LED back lit tv's not ever being able to reach true black levels throughout the entire screen. Or how about having to be seated dead center in order to view its best potential. I guess it's ok for anyone who always watch tv alone. So that's at least 3 defects to OLED's 1 which only shows up very infrequently during actual viewing of amazing picture quality. Picture quality which is widely considered the best ever.
I'm not sure what that even means since it seems to be more a description of OLED. When the best FALD sets go black, they're uniformly black throughout. Additionally the Sony FALD has a wider viewing angle than the Samsung, so you don't have to sit 'dead center' in the sweet spot at all.

So your '3 defects' (even though I only counted 2 ) are really pretty minor relative to the low luminance OLED issue that can actually occur more frequently than you think depending on the movie.

The bottom line is both techs are capable of great PQ and anyone that thinks the best FALD sets are not capable of superb PQ are living a sheltered life.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #21 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 116
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 93
AB4OLED is offline  
post #22 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 03:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,153
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1178 Post(s)
Liked: 1053
If you guy's are talking about color accuracy, my 65EG9600 is as good as it gets.
If you are talking about black level my 65EG9600 is as good as it gets.

See the top link in my sig, click on it and look at the linked post and the one right below.
These are actual measured reports on how well the EG9600 OLED can perform.

Just compare my calibration reports on my 65EG9600 to whatever FALD complete calibration report you want, I doubt they will be as good as my EG9600 can be tuned in for dE2000 color accuracy, Grayscale, Gamma, CCT, RGB balance, Saturation, Lumance, Gamut (1931 CIE observer) .

As far as black level goes, look at the measured black level of a well calibrated FALD about .012 fl, now compare to a OLED black, .00000.
To give you a reference point the Panasonic Plasma VT60 has a measured black level around .0012, much better than the FALD. However if you compare the VT60 to the EG9600, the VT60 seems a bit washed out, thanks to the .0000 black of the OLED.

The question that has been asked is, can a calibration like the one in my link remove the issue of the black side bars.
No it can not, however it can lesson them to a point that is less offensive.

ss

"Don't worry be happy"
LG77C8, Klein K10-A, Jeti 1211, CMS Lightspace, Calman home plus licence for K10-A, Murideo 6G.
sillysally is offline  
post #23 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 03:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
johnnybrulez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,683
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Yes, but of course it's a bit silly to compare an edge lit with OLED. The far better comparison would be to the test the best of the FALD sets to OLED.
Samsung 8500 is a fald.

My pioneer kuro Is way superior.

I'm thinking the oled would give it a thumping in a dark room.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
johnnybrulez is offline  
post #24 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 03:49 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 33,190
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7370 Post(s)
Liked: 8247
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB4OLED View Post
This has little to do with the best of today's consumer OLEDs (and their issues) and the best of today's FALD LCDs. It also has little to do with what we saw at the shootout.

It's also of little value to cite FALD MLLs with the FALD off. No owner watches with FALD off. When my FALD displays show a black or mostly black screen, it's black. The picture blends seemlessly into the bezel.

For me, that's where the rubber meets the road. I see little point in chest pounding, I watch the picture.

I think opinions would change drastically if some watched a display like the 940c in total darkness. The key would be to do this objecively, but human nature being what it is, that's hard to do.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #25 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 03:54 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 33,190
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7370 Post(s)
Liked: 8247
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post
Samsung 8500 is a fald.

My pioneer kuro Is way superior.

I'm thinking the oled would give it a thumping in a dark room.
Umm, I do not believe the 8500 is a FALD display. Your Kuro should be superior.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #26 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 04:17 PM
Advanced Member
 
qwknuf6's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 882
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 192 Post(s)
Liked: 200
IIRC Samsung 8500 is a FALD , Samsung got in trouble for patent infringement that may have been related to the local dimming , the 8500 is an older model like 2009 ????
qwknuf6 is offline  
post #27 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 04:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
robert9674's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,483
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1255 Post(s)
Liked: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post
IIRC Samsung 8500 is a FALD , Samsung got in trouble for patent infringement that may have been related to the local dimming , the 8500 is an older model like 2009 ????


The 8500 was a plasma set not LCD ...WOW
Dabois09 likes this.
robert9674 is online now  
post #28 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 04:54 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Liked: 27
"Spitting in the Wind"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
This has little to do with the best of today's consumer OLEDs (and their issues) and the best of today's FALD LCDs. It also has little to do with what we saw at the shootout.

It's also of little value to cite FALD MLLs with the FALD off. No owner watches with FALD off. When my FALD displays show a black or mostly black screen, it's black. The picture blends seemlessly into the bezel.

For me, that's where the rubber meets the road. I see little point in chest pounding, I watch the picture.

I think opinions would change drastically if some watched a display like the 940c in total darkness. The key would be to do this objecively, but human nature being what it is, that's hard to do.
"Nice Try", Ken, but like my title here, You are "spitting into the wind". You will not change any of their minds, as far as Oleds go.


Just look at SS's post about "perfect color" on his Oled,(as an example), we've seen posts, (Kaleden) & others & numerous other reviews, & also the shootout, complaints about cyan and green problems yellow under saturation, on the Oleds, yet his is perfect. (no one can tell him any different, and I would be the last to try)!


I would just save your breath, hopefully the new flat Oled that is "coming soon" will be as, "certain Oled posters here", claim, "Perfect"!!!!


I'm sure if I claimed the Samsung is better than the Sony, welllllll~~~~~ You and I would probably argue that to eternity, so I won't.


I am anxious to see the new Samsung JS7000, thou as I have decided that my next TV will be a 60", and as of right now, there are not a lot of candidates, alto I'm in No hurry.


I watched the Old 52" Sharp, last nite, with the lights off, and I played many of the videos and slide shows I've made over the last ten years, and guess what, No blooming, No bad motion, No dim edges, No picture noise, No "Off colors, or "grey blacks" came out to byte me. I just really enjoyed watching those videos.


I just hope any new TV I buy, can do as well!!!


Gary
1959Dodge is offline  
post #29 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 116
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 93
A snippet from a flatpanelshd article:

"With an LCD TV you need full-array local dimming (FALD) zones to do HDR, but as you probably know there are only a few hundred zones. So when the LCD TV is reproducing a very bright spot, for example the sun, it needs to fully activate the zone behind this part of the picture, which means that it will often overexpose the area around the bright spot. LG’s OLED TVs do not, and we noticed how the OLED TVs can reproduce bright spots and still maintain a perfect balance in the rest of the image. Why? Because every single pixel in an OLED panel can go from perfect, zero black to 800 nits (current peak brightness of the new 4K OLED TVs). This corresponds to having a local dimming zone behind every single of the 8 million pixels in an LCD panel. Impossible.

We also saw some HDR demos running on LCD TVs without full-array local dimming systems. It was not very pretty. Do not expect to enjoy HDR content on those kinds of TVs even if it is advertised in the specifications.

Another big difference between HDR on a LCD and OLED is evident in the darkest areas of the picture. Again, this is one of the disadvantages of LCD local dimming zones that dim in areas where the picture is dark, which also means that many “shadow details” disappear. When comparing LCD and OLED side-by-side the difference is dramatic. Black is truly black on the OLED - no tricks - and there are far more details in the dark areas of the picture."

I also had the opportunity recently to view the Sony, Samsung & LG best sets in the same room and although they all had great picture quality, the OLED really stood out. I really liked the Sony as well but when you compared the black levels with the same content it made the Sony very good black looked washed out. So I used my eyes to determine which TV had the better picture. It wasn't close In my eyes opinion. Even my family thought the LG was by far the better TV based on picture only. They think all TVs are basically the same and normally could care less about TV's (Average Consumer). Comments like, that's beautiful, that's awesome, that's amazing. Thus, I now own a 2nd OLED TV (65EG9600) and my wife informed me that I now have to buy new seating and remodel the room.

And yes unfortunately, my unit is also showing those infamous black bars on occasions. But the picture quality is second to none. I can live with those occasional black bars.
rlindo, Latinoheat and BDCarp04 like this.
AB4OLED is offline  
post #30 of 114 Old 07-11-2015, 05:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
qwknuf6's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 882
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 192 Post(s)
Liked: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert9674 View Post
The 8500 was a plasma set not LCD ...WOW
WOWZER......

Yes there was a samsung 8500 local dimming LCD before the 8500 plasma :roll eyes:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/30/s...ed-backlights/

I even guessed the year correct

Last edited by qwknuf6; 07-11-2015 at 05:52 PM.
qwknuf6 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off