Panasonic Unveils CZ950 OLED UHDTV at IFA - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 673 Old 09-05-2015, 06:27 PM
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post #242 of 673 Old 09-05-2015, 06:44 PM
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Nice find!

Beautiful video. Exceptional lighting. 18% grey wall, maybe? Shows this TV in the best light possible. The video above, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post37044922, from the show room floor shows more telling details though. And even though in the pro shot video the bezel reflectivity doesn't seem to be an issue the silver pen strip still looks a bit obtrusive. In a darkened room the bezel reflectivity may not be an issue.

Cheers,

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post #243 of 673 Old 09-05-2015, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by dnoonie View Post
Nice find!

Beautiful video. Exceptional lighting. 18% grey wall, maybe? Shows this TV in the best light possible. The video above, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post37044922, from the show room floor shows more telling details though. And even though in the pro shot video the bezel reflectivity doesn't seem to be an issue the silver pen strip still looks a bit obtrusive. In a darkened room the bezel reflectivity may not be an issue.

Cheers,
or you know you could just wall mount it
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post #244 of 673 Old 09-05-2015, 07:32 PM
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Panasonic OLED presentation:

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post #245 of 673 Old 09-05-2015, 08:02 PM
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Panasonic OLED presentation:

The 4th or 5th slide around the 5-minute mark says it all.

Any LG OLED can be calibrated to deliver a nice ramp out of black, but because of the near-black streaking/non-uniformity/DSE, what is typically done instead is to calibrate so that the entire near-black range that exposes the streaks is 'crushed' down into black and then 'catches up' in a single step a few % above black (as shown in the graph on the right).

The result is to lose near-black shadow detail, as correctly shown in the example image. Calibrated to display the same shadow detail as the image in the right, an LG OLED would display near-grey streaks/DSE in the 'missing shadow detail' areas.

This looks like a nice TV and if Panasonic is actually able to display the full near-black range without suffering from streaking/DSE, they will have delivered a significant improvement over the current crop of LG OLEDs.

On the other hand, the gamut is only 90% of DCI-P3 (as confirmed by LG) and by 2016' LG claims they will have OLED panels delivering >100% of DCI-P3.

Camping out for another year to see the gamut improve, the price come down out of the stratosphere, and a flat offering (as well as perhaps a 77" ) may be the way to go...

In any case, it's good to see Panasonic get their moxie back (as well as their LCD-trashing ways ).
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post #246 of 673 Old 09-05-2015, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by unknownuser200 View Post
or you know you could just wall mount it
Yes there are other mounting options for certain that would take care of the stand. If i can find a wall mount that sticks 2' out that would work once I replace some of my larger equipment in my signal chain. Maybe I'd be doing that at the same time as a TV so it might work out ideal to wall mount or get a TV stand with built in mount or...

Cheers,

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post #247 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by dnoonie View Post
Inexpensively covered with matte black vinyl sign material. Indoor/re-position-able would likely be better than the permanent outdoor, of course until I see it this is just a solution looking for a problem to solve, but then now that I think about it I could use this on some stuff I have now.

This $10, http://www.amazon.com/Repositionable...tte+vinyl+roll, 10' role could likely cover a lot of annoyingly shiny things.

Cheers,
Matte black Plasti-dip works wonders too - might be easier to do the stand with that than peel-and-stick.
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post #248 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 07:51 AM
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I'll take a flat one in a sec.....
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post #249 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post
To me the curve is an absolute deal breaker.
Yes the LG has a slightly less curve than Samsung but to me a curved screen is just WRONG.
Even when its turned off it looks WRONG.

Honestly if I had 10000$ , I would be more likely to consider the Epson ls 10000 projector than any of the LG Oled panels :\
It is Panasonics first OLED ever, don't expect it to be cheap They do not expect to sell a lot of them anyway..it is just a starter for them in the OLED field.
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post #250 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 08:10 AM
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Exclamation Flat Screens are a Must!

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Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post
To me the curve is an absolute deal breaker.
Yes the LG has a slightly less curve than Samsung but to me a curved screen is just WRONG.
Even when its turned off it looks WRONG.

Honestly if I had 10000$ , I would be more likely to consider the Epson ls 10000 projector than any of the LG Oled panels :\
Agreed. Hello OLED TV makers: We the buying public prefer flat screens, not curved! Build them the way we want and make far more money.
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post #251 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 08:30 AM
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Yeah, yeah, okay, we get it. Maybe we should create a "flat OLED moaners thread". It's getting repetitive.
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post #252 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by tubby497 View Post
Panasonic OLED presentation:

Awesome. I'll just restate anyone who still says this is a rebadged anything is clueless.

And those focused on the thx cert simply don't understand what is being presented yet.

Hopefully some reviews make this clearer for those who aren't super technical.
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post #253 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 09:31 AM
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Well now I get why the set is curved...look at his podium...
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post #254 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 09:36 AM
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Judging from the slides, it appears that they have addressed the issues we have seen with the LG OLEDS. At the very least, they know it is there. The black blotches are gone and the screen uniformity looks very good. Hoping this pans out when we can actually see one!

Louder is NOT better!
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post #255 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 10:01 AM
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This looks very promising, and with that I mean that finally some tech guys talk and explain what they are doing.


Right at the beginning, the Pioneer Kuro talking...


Feels so good..



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post #256 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by tubby497 View Post
Panasonic OLED presentation:
Add englisch or german subtitles and i will fully watch those videos
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post #257 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 11:25 AM
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Very interesting part:


Regarding the shadow details:


It requires extreme delicate processing in the low-brightness areas, because Oled black shuts off.


To resolve this, we used plasma panel driving technology that was accumulated on plasma displays and optimized it to match the oled characteristics.



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post #258 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnoonie View Post
Nice find!

Beautiful video. Exceptional lighting. 18% grey wall, maybe? Shows this TV in the best light possible. The video above, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post37044922, from the show room floor shows more telling details though. And even though in the pro shot video the bezel reflectivity doesn't seem to be an issue the silver pen strip still looks a bit obtrusive. In a darkened room the bezel reflectivity may not be an issue.

Cheers,
The pro shot video is actually a CGI render. Bezel reflections are muted, and screen reflections are nonexistent. In reality you would see purplish screen reflections in a room lit like that, including reflections of the camera/cameraman.
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post #259 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post
Very interesting part:


Regarding the shadow details:


It requires extreme delicate processing in the low-brightness areas, because Oled black shuts off.


To resolve this, we used plasma panel driving technology that was accumulated on plasma displays and optimized it to match the oled characteristics.


Unfortunately, that explanation is complete marketing hokum (but reasonably good marketing hokum ).

Panasonic knows how to deliver color and greyscale accuracy and what they have done is brought their greyscale calibration and LUT technologies to LGs WOLED. That's fantastic, but the ability to improve near-black uniformity has nothing to do with plasma (probably either cherry-picking good panels or performing finished-TV characterization and compensation).
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post #260 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post
Very interesting part:


Regarding the shadow details:


It requires extreme delicate processing in the low-brightness areas, because Oled black shuts off.


To resolve this, we used plasma panel driving technology that was accumulated on plasma displays and optimized it to match the oled characteristics.


Maybe some evidence of them using PWM?
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post #261 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 12:07 PM
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LG is still the only flat game in town .

Hey Panasonic, 2005 called, they want thier thick bezel back . Yuck. The LG is flat AND bezel-less and the stand looks better. But yeah, it's likely a LG panel.

So if the picture is going to be indentical, asthetics wise, I'll give it to LG over this TV.
Why do people get so fixated with the stand on any TV. I'm thinking that stand is so ugly I can't focus on the TV. I maybe wrong but once I'm immersed in watching something on the tv my focus is not on the stand.
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post #262 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
It is Panasonics first OLED ever, don't expect it to be cheap They do not expect to sell a lot of them anyway..it is just a starter for them in the OLED field.
Its an LG panel with Panasonic processing, I would expect it to be slightly higher priced than lg's comparably sized Oled's.
So 10k range for now at least.
Certainly not a huge technical accomplishment on Panasonic's part.

Then again I am not that big on TV's in general these days, over the last few years I have gotten more and more smitten with projectors.
I don't mean to sound elitist, but however how good a tv is, if you are watching a tv, you are watching tv.
But when watching a movie on a projector, you are really watching a movie
That said there are many many reasons not to go for a projector.

I started with an optoma hd100x, moved to a Sony hw50 (which was a massive upgrade).
Yes better blacks would be nice but if the image can be calibrated well then that honestly matters less than you might think.

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post #263 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 12:32 PM
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Why do people get so fixated with the stand on any TV. I'm thinking that stand is so ugly I can't focus on the TV. I maybe wrong but once I'm immersed in watching something on the tv my focus is not on the stand.
The stand is a major consideration of mine. I have an amazing solid wood media unit that was custom built for me, and its only about 48" wide so any stand that is as wide as or wider than the set itself would be a no no for me. I live in a rented property and I doubt my landlord would like me drilling holes in his walls for a mount.
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post #264 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RGBlues View Post
Agreed. Hello OLED TV makers: We the buying public prefer flat screens, not curved! Build them the way we want and make far more money.
And therein lies the problem, you are NOT the 'buying public'.
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post #265 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Awesome. I'll just restate anyone who still says this is a rebadged anything is clueless.

And those focused on the thx cert simply don't understand what is being presented yet.

Hopefully some reviews make this clearer for those who aren't super technical.
Well golly, I surely hope you can explain all of this to us.

Some who have used the 'rebadged' description are doing so, I'm sure, because Panasonic is almost certainly using an LG panel. So to those folks, in that sense, it is rebadged. I see no real issue with that thought process. Of course Panasonic is adding their own processing, but the underlying panel is, more than likely, LG.

For others that are apparently 'ignorant' enough to not drop dead with enthusiasm over the THX label, perhaps we have actually had some experience with the "THX promise" and what was actually delivered. But hey, what do we know?
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post #266 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Unfortunately, that explanation is complete marketing hokum (but reasonably good marketing hokum ).
Almost as much marketing hokum as the murky gray picture in one of the slides, that is alleged to represent LCD blacks.

These marketing demos will never stop with the incredible embellishments.
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post #267 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 01:32 PM
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Well golly, I surely hope you can explain all of this to us.

Some who have used the 'rebadged' description are doing so, I'm sure, because Panasonic is almost certainly using an LG panel. So to those folks, in that sense, it is rebadged. I see no real issue with that thought process. Of course Panasonic is adding their own processing, but the underlying panel is, more than likely, LG.
You can delete "more than likely."

It's an LG panel.

Of course, "rebadge" here is a loaded term. Every Sony TV uses a panel sourced outside of Sony. (Pedants, the Sony OLED broadcast monitor is not a consumer TV, but thanks.)

Most TV brands are not panel makers.

That said, whatever flaws exist in the LG panel itself, Panasonic will not be able to fix or compensate for with processing or electronics.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #268 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Awesome. I'll just restate anyone who still says this is a rebadged anything is clueless.

And those focused on the thx cert simply don't understand what is being presented yet.

Hopefully some reviews make this clearer for those who aren't super technical.
Well golly, I surely hope you can explain all of this to us.

Some who have used the 'rebadged' description are doing so, I'm sure, because Panasonic is almost certainly using an LG panel. So to those folks, in that sense, it is rebadged. I see no real issue with that thought process. Of course Panasonic is adding their own processing, but the underlying panel is, more than likely, LG.

For others that are apparently 'ignorant' enough to not drop dead with enthusiasm over the THX label, perhaps we have actually had some experience with the "THX promise" and what was actually delivered. But hey, what do we know?
Still focused on the stupid THX logo you obviously do not get the technical promise of the TV or the details described.

To be frank. Who cares about the stupid THX logo, no one is discussing it but you.

I've been discussing the LUT and all the other technical features Panasonic has added to the panel which are certainly absence in the LG version.

Also Including the uneven vingnette which lg still has but Panasonic has fixed.

I think with Panasonic has done exceeds most of the members knowledge on this forum.

I get all the folks I don't like the curve if you don't like it there's nothing you can do about it.
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post #269 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 02:02 PM
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You can delete "more than likely."

It's an LG panel.

Of course, "rebadge" here is a loaded term. Every Sony TV uses a panel sourced outside of Sony. (Pedants, the Sony OLED broadcast monitor is not a consumer TV, but thanks.)

Most TV brands are not panel makers.

That said, whatever flaws exist in the LG panel itself, Panasonic will not be able to fix or compensate for with processing or electronics.
I have great respect for you Rogo, but I am a stickler for precision and you have stated as fact something that is not.

The LG panels suffer from near-black streaking that is essentially a low-luminance fixed pattern noise. With all of Panasonic's pixel-level processing, compensating for this near-black non-uniformity is very possible.

It requires measuring and storing the fixed pattern noise so that it can be compensated for, meaning a factory-level finished-TV test&calibration step, meaning $$$$$

But if Panasonic wants to go to the trouble of measuring and storing the pixel-level greyscale image (at 2% or 5% IRE, for example) for each and every OLED TV that they ship, compensating for that fixed pattern noise within CMS/greyscale pixel computations is very possible.

Of course, if the FPN changes with time/use, that is only a limited solution, and of course, if factory-level calibration were practical, we would already be able to purchase pre-calibrated TVs.

But on the one hand, you charactized this inability to compensate near-black nonumiformity as an absolute, and it is not, and also, for the $5000-6000 premium Panasonic is charging over LG, factory calibration is probably a great deal more practical than it is for the cutthroat mass TV market (especially at the low, low volumes of CZ950s Panasonic is likely to be shipping ).
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post #270 of 673 Old 09-06-2015, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Still focused on the stupid THX logo you obviously do not get the technical promise of the TV or the details described.

To be frank. Who cares about the stupid THX logo, no one is discussing it but you.
And why shouldn't I? It's touted by Panasonic, I'm sure it will be used in their promotional ads and so, you bet I will discuss it. Maybe it will mean something this time around, maybe it won't. I am simply warning those that aren't aware, the logo may mean little.
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I've been discussing the LUT and all the other technical features Panasonic has added to the panel which are certainly absence in the LG version.

Also Including the uneven vingnette which lg still has but Panasonic has fixed.

I think with Panasonic has done exceeds most of the members knowledge on this forum.
Well once this panel is released, we'll all be able to see all these things they've done that 'exceeds most of the members knowledge on this forum'. That's where the rubber meets the road. That's when the hype melts away to either expose true accomplishments or something else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
I get all the folks I don't like the curve if you don't like it there's nothing you can do about it.
Sure there is, they don't buy it.
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