Samsung to produce OLED televisions in 2017 - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
I don't think that we only see an slight backlight adjustment,is the perceived contrast of the scene.


an example this an sky scene , JS9500 left ,LG Oled right.



another cons that we all know is this:

Funny, I see better shadow detail on the picture on the left. Funny. I'm also seeing better, more neutral colors, on the left side as opposed to the too cool rendering on the right. Ah, there are those A/Bs again. . But hey, we know these displays were not properly adjusted.

See how we all see different things?
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post #92 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 08:31 AM
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Only e few LCd's might be a alternative for self emissive TVs. And with self emissive you can Always be shure that there is a stable contrast.
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post #93 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 09:26 AM
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" I totally agree with fafrd when he says we can now look at other aspects of PQ to make our own decision on the overall best PQ"

Hmmmmm, I recall having that "very conversation" with you Ken, Many Moons ago, and I was saying what you now are saying, alto I recall you did respond to "something like", "I didn't say ~~~~etc (Paraphrasing), and NOT "Quoting You per say", Ken.


I started thinking "out of the Box", and using an articulating mount I think I can fit a 65" TV in my entertainment center.


This puts be back in the race for a FALD or OLED TV, (I just can't seem to "warm up" to edge lit TV's).


During the shootout, (as I recall), The Samsung JS9500 came in 2nd", yet you seem to find the Sony "better", (again I'm trying to be careful , not to misquote you. Anyway the Sony is out, due to those speakers and I'm not even sure Sony makes a 2015 65" Fald TV.


Anyway, based upon "to me", your less than favorable opinion of the JS9500, that along with reports to "Terrible off Axis Viewing", on virtually all VA panels, (One poster even said if he so much as moved to the next cushion on his sofa, that the picture degraded substantially (again paraphrasing).


We do like to have parties where I show the videos and slide shows I've made, also we are apt to sit anywhere in the family room to watch the TV, and so far the Old Sharp does well as far as viewing angles, and If I had a dollar for every time folks have remarked what a great picture on that TV, well I would have the money to special order me a 100 inch OLED TV, (LOL).


Anyway, be that as it may, What's your experience with viewing angles on the Sony and do you think the JS9500 is that much worse? This is "Putting me more into the OLED Camp", than anything else I've read!


Thanks


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post #94 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Funny, I don't remember saying 'indistinguishable' from OLEDs. I don't know what it is with some of you guys, but I'd prefer you not putting words in my mouth.

What I did say was that the best FALD LCDs are so good, that even many discriminating videophiles will be perfectly happy with these displays. We are not talking 'gray blacks', we are not talking 'dark gray blacks', we are talking blacks, that in a dark room blend in with the black bezel. For me, that's certainly good enough.

Now couple that with top notch processing that's better than current OLEDs, no near black issues, a wider color gamut and 10" greater screen real-estate, and you have a compelling alternative to OLED.
Let's face it Ken. OLED just isn't for you! . Something tells me maybe in 2017!

Louder is NOT better!
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post #95 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 10:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rikkyjames View Post
Hmmm - not sure what article you are reading.
I posted a direct quote from the article - Not just a headline.

https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/new...33_186285.html

Quote:
The timing of Samsung's advance into OLED won't happen until next year. We expect OLED TV panels could reach large volume by 2017.
Next year means 2016 - It is 2015 right now, right?

Like I said - seems to imply there might be a flagship model or two in 2016, with a full lineup of OLEDs in 2017.
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post #96 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
I posted a direct quote from the article - Not just a headline.

https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/new...33_186285.html



Next year means 2016 - It is 2015 right now, right?

Like I said - seems to imply there might be a flagship model or two in 2016, with a full lineup of OLEDs in 2017.
No it seems to imply to me that the article is utter crap - if Samsung were hoping to debut their own OLED in 2016 you can bet your bottom dollar we would have heard murmurs from them by now ...
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post #97 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 11:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rikkyjames View Post
No it seems to imply to me that the article is utter crap - if Samsung were hoping to debut their own OLED in 2016 you can bet your bottom dollar we would have heard murmurs from them by now ...
Well, we have heard murmurs - There have been bits and pieces of information leaked out since the S9C was discontinued, in the past year especially. This article seems like another crumb.

CES is a few months away, they typically announce their big products at CES and release a few months later - See JS9500 from last year. I wouldn't rule out 2016 just yet.
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post #98 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
Well, we have heard murmurs - There have been bits and pieces of information leaked out since the S9C was discontinued, in the past year especially. This article seems like another crumb.

CES is a few months away, they typically announce their big products at CES and release a few months later - See JS9500 from last year. I wouldn't rule out 2016 just yet.
Won't they need new production facilities to mass produce these new OLED's?? Given that LG have had 2-3 year start on them and have really only got up and running in the last 7 or 8 months it figures that it'll be a similar story for Samsung and I haven't heard anything about their new OLED production lines.

As far as I am aware the Kateeva method of printing OLED's hasn't yet yielded even a working prototype never mind a finished product.
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post #99 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
The Sony 75X940C, which I have never had in my home but have evaluated for several sessions in the Magnolia Section with the lights turned off (very dim environment) also has a native contrast ratio of over 6,000:1.
It doesn't have native CR of over 6000:1, it is much lower:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kd75x...1508314160.htm
120/0.078=1538
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post #100 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
We are not talking 'gray blacks', we are not talking 'dark gray blacks', we are talking blacks, that in a dark room blend in with the black bezel.
Does that include scenes that are pretty dark and for the pixels near the bezel?

--Darin
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post #101 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post
Let's face it Ken. OLED just isn't for you! . Something tells me maybe in 2017!
Not likely unless my bedroom Elite dies.
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post #102 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraBlack View Post
It doesn't have native CR of over 6000:1, it is much lower:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kd75x...1508314160.htm
120/0.078=1538
In general, I have a great deal of respect for HDTVTEST, but that measurement cannot have been done correctly - that native contrast ratio would be barely above IPS-level and would be disasterous for a VA LCD.

Chad's measurement is probably more reflective of the true native contrast of the panel: https://clevelandplasma.com/store/20...ny_xbr_75x940c

"Contrast ratio was measured with 10% size, 22% APL windows. The native panel contrast ratio measured 4232:1 (57.9 fL white, .0137 fL black) without the aid of the local dimming. With local dimming on high or medium, the contrast ratio was so good it was unmeasurable. With the local dimming on low, it was 86363:1 (57.69 fL, .00067fL). This is extremely impressive performance. Setting the local dimming to high compressed highlights in some test patterns, but everything looked great with it set to medium, with even dark images showing outstanding contrast."

In comparison, Chad's measurements of the Samsing JS9500 indicate that it does have a very dissapointing native contrast ratio: https://clevelandplasma.com/store/20...ung_un65js9500

"Contrast:

Using custom APL “torture test” windows (50% size, 99% APL), I measured the following worst case scenario contrast ratios:
Smart LED off: 1843:1 (45/.024 fL); Smart LED low and standard: 3935:1 (45.2/.011 fL) Smart LED high: 3940:1 (77/.0195 fL). Turning Smart LED to high was like turning on a brightness turbocharger, though it did not increase the contrast ratio.
Using 10% size 25% APL windows, which will approximate real content, gave the following results:
Smart LED low and standard: 15456:1 (43.1/.0028fL); Smart LED high: 16058:1 (73.6/.0046 fL).
Using full fields or conventional windows, the contrast ratio was immeasurable since the dimming made the blacks perfectly black."

This link will show you Buzz767's characterization of the native contrast ratio of the 2014 Vizio P60: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post28223362

He measured a native contrast ratio of 7280:1 (slightly high than my measurements of the P70).

And finally, here is a press release from 2007 where AUO announced their new AMVA panel technology with a native contrast ratio of 5000:1: http://www.auo.com/?sn=107&lang=en-US&c=10&n=589

The native contrast ratio of the Sony 75X940C is far, far higher than 1538:1 (unless, perhaps, the British version is based on an IPS panel ).
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post #103 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
with self emissive you can Always be shure that there is a stable contrast.
That is my point ,The stable contrast that emissive brings , Lcd doesn't have stable black retention , no with local dimming on ,this is a fact.
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post #104 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 03:05 PM
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Do you wonder why so many diferent calibrators have diferent contrast numbers results on the FALD displays? and this have cofuse the people , members extracting from sites diferent numbers.

Yes is hard to get accurate numbers unless you turn the local dimming completely off.


it reminds me a little of the floating blacks issue that some plasma had before.

Last edited by losservatore; 09-13-2015 at 03:13 PM.
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post #105 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Does that include scenes that are pretty dark and for the pixels near the bezel?

--Darin
Darin, absolutely.
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post #106 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
That is my point ,The stable contrast that emissive brings , Lcd doesn't have stable black retention , no with local dimming on ,this is a fact.
I'll say it again, there is nothing unstable about the black levels on the 940c. You can choose not to believe it, but you'd be wrong.
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post #107 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Do you wonder why so many diferent calibrators have diferent contrast numbers results on the FALD displays? and this have cofuse the people , members extracting from sites diferent numbers.

Yes is hard to get accurate numbers unless you turn the local dimming completely off.
Agree. It is my sense that some of these sites tend to get 'locked-in' to a particular characterization/calibration methodology and that 'one-size-fits-all' approach is often mistaken.

As an example, a site like HDTVTEST that has focused on characterization/calibration of plasma TVs for most of their history, is not necessarily going to get the right outcome if they blindly characterize a FALD LCD in the same way they have become accustomed to doing so on a plasma.

Many of the individual settings on a FALD LED/LCD can have a dramatic impact on performance and if you do not take the time to understand those specific controls (which vary widely from manufacturer to manufacturer), you can be confident that you know what you are doing when you do not.

The trick to measuring native contrast on an LCD is to be sure that the LCD lighvalves are 100% open when measuring peak white and then measuring black levels when those LCD lighvalves are completely closed and backlight brightness remains unchanged.

The fact that HDTVTEST and Chad got such widely different results means that either they were characterizing in different ways (including using very different settings) or the TVs themselves were very different.
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post #108 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 03:32 PM
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It's weird that anyone believes Samsung is producing OLED TVs next year.

First of all, the public statements of the company have been contrary to that.

Second of all, there is no evidence they have an affordable production technology ready.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #109 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraBlack View Post
It doesn't have native CR of over 6000:1, it is much lower:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kd75x...1508314160.htm
120/0.078=1538
Like fafrd I too have seen, in a couple of reviews, the native CR of the 940c measured at about 6,000:1.

However, with that said, even this review (which preferred the 940c's overall PQ to that of OLED) said this: "The Sony X940C’s black-level depth was superb by all accounts, making an absolute mockery of the 0.078 cd/m2 ANSI blacks we measured".

This coincides with what I've said I see at home on my 940c.
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post #110 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I'll say it again, there is nothing unstable about the black levels on the 940c. You can choose not to believe it, but you'd be wrong.
You can't lock me into ( You are wrong if you don't believed it). Just because I don't agree.
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post #111 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
It's weird that anyone believes Samsung is producing OLED TVs next year.

First of all, the public statements of the company have been contrary to that.

Second of all, there is no evidence they have an affordable production technology ready.
Every once in a while, someone pipes up on the original thread title and revives the original topic of Samsung getting back into OLED TV (because an Executive from Merck believes so ).

But at this point, this thread has pretty much been hijacked to become the 'OLED versus FALD LED/LCD thread'
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post #112 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
You can't lock me into ( You are wrong if you don't believed it). Just because I don't agree.
I live with the display my friend, I'd know if it's unstable.

You can also disagree the Earth is round. That would be your prerogative.
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post #113 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
However, with that said, even this review....said this: "The Sony X940C’s black-level depth was superb by all accounts, making an absolute mockery of the 0.078 cd/m2 ANSI blacks we measured".

This coincides with what I've said I see at home on my 940c.

And this same review said this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtvtest UK
Of course, even with the help of local dimming, blacks (outside of a full-black screen) on the KD75X9405C could never reach the true zero state of an OLED television, but it’s good enough, especially if some bias lighting’s added to the mix.

Which coincides with what I've been saying in this thread:


1) OLED contrast is hands down better than LCD. FALD or otherwise.
2) This doesn't mean that "OLED sets are superior to FALD LCD sets.". FALD contrast can still be "good enough", and there can be other aspects of image quality (for any given set) that make for an overall better picture.
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post #114 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyBagadonuts View Post
And this same review said this:


Which coincides with what I've been saying in this thread:


1) OLED contrast is hands down better than LCD. FALD or otherwise.
2) This doesn't mean that "OLED sets are superior to FALD LCD sets.". FALD contrast can still be "good enough", and there can be other aspects of image quality (for any given set) that make for an overall better picture.
I give! You win, JoeyBagadonuts

On the other hand, there is the remaining 'bleeding-edge' aspects of OLED-TV. First 10% and 5% screen shots of the 65EF9500 have just been posted and they ain't pretty
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post #115 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 04:06 PM
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Joey, as you know, I never disputed the subject of absolute black levels. My point was that, IMO, the level of diminishing returns has been reached and large measured differences no longer translate into large perceptual differences. That has not always been the case.
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post #116 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I give! You win, JoeyBagadonuts

On the other hand, there is the remaining 'bleeding-edge' aspects of OLED-TV. First 10% and 5% screen shots of the 65EF9500 have just been posted and they ain't pretty
So the beat goes on.
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post #117 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I give! You win, JoeyBagadonuts

On the other hand, there is the remaining 'bleeding-edge' aspects of OLED-TV. First 10% and 5% screen shots of the 65EF9500 have just been posted and they ain't pretty

Yeah...just saw them. I'm hoping that as with the 9600, it takes several hours and a panel refresh or two for things to "settle"...then we'll see how bad that set is.


I'm going to end up giving it a shot anyway. Since I need off-axis viewing I'm just going to hope for a good panel, or ultimately a repair / replacement if whatever I get ain't good. I'll be watching that thread for sure!
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post #118 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBagadonuts View Post
Yeah...just saw them. I'm hoping that as with the 9600, it takes several hours and a panel refresh or two for things to "settle"...then we'll see how bad that set is.


I'm going to end up giving it a shot anyway. Since I need off-axis viewing I'm just going to hope for a good panel, or ultimately a repair / replacement if whatever I get ain't good. I'll be watching that thread for sure!
Good luck! I'm gonna keep monitoring for a month or two.

Do we have confirmation that the Vignetting issue has been solved on the EG9600 I was under the impression that most AVS owner's had decided to trade-in for the 9500...
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post #119 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I live with the display my friend, I'd know if it's unstable.
People tend to defend their display especially if they pay a lot of money.


we can ask this question to any professional calibrator (black level retention is unstable on fald displays,especially when the local dimming is on ) and see if I'm wrong.


With this I'm not discarding the option to buy a fald , they still produce a great picture.

Last edited by losservatore; 09-13-2015 at 08:20 PM.
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post #120 of 130 Old 09-13-2015, 06:17 PM
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Not likely unless my bedroom Elite dies.
So I'm curious, how much would you have to spend on a LCD to get performance similar to the Sharp Elite?

The Elite won the Value Electronics shootout in 2011. Has that kind of performance filtered down to the sub-$1000 LCD's yet?
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