Am I crazy for liking the curve? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 133 Old 09-27-2015, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I hate the curve, and don't buy the beets and cauliflower analogy at all.

No grocery stores are crowding out other veggies to carry ones you don't like.

Curved TVs are crowding out equivalent flat ones, however. You can't buy a top-end Samsung LCD that's flat. You've had few chances to buy a flat OLED until very recently and you still won't have the chance from Panasonic.

And, also, though I'd consider this secondary, the curve irritates me (and others) because it isn't there to make things better; it's there for marketing. For every fan of it -- and you guys should feel 100% free to enjoy it, sincerely -- many of us so no functional benefit but drawbacks (sometimes significant). They curved OLEDs because they could and hoped it would help them stand out at retail in a world where 95% of buyers won't see them as special in a Best Buy.

Samsung then showed you could replicate this edge on LCD but LG was already all in and, besides, it was now used to convey "high end" and almost validated by Samsung.

There is nothing about curving the TV that makes it objectively better -- please watch the Panasonic guy in the video explain how he's come to stop hating it now that he is forced to sell one. It's a gold-colored iPhone in a world where you'd be prohibited (often) from buying black ones.
The advantages of curved screens are discussed here:

http://www.displaymate.com/LG_OLED_T...#Curved_Screen
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post #62 of 133 Old 09-29-2015, 06:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
The advantages of curved screens are discussed here:

http://www.displaymate.com/LG_OLED_T...#Curved_Screen
Yes, but he makes a mistake; A mistake similar to many other mistakes that academics make by trusting calculations over observation and ending up with a bumblebee that cannot fly. That corner distortion he's talking about is correct only on paper. As humans, we've long since evolved to recognize straight vertical lines off to the right as straight vertical lines even if the top and bottom of them are further away.

I challenge anyone looking at a flat rectangle on the wall to see the corners as somehow curving outward similar to the dual (upright+inverted) keystone distortion he's talking about. You won't.
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post #63 of 133 Old 09-29-2015, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
As humans, we've long since evolved to recognize straight vertical lines off to the right as straight vertical lines even if the top and bottom of them are further away.
Evolved? What would the mechanism of that evolution be?

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post #64 of 133 Old 09-29-2015, 09:05 PM
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I can't help pointing out that Soneira is the same guy who bought into the "image fusion" claim made by LG for passive 3D. If memory serves, he used stills of very small text from the IMAX Space Station 3D BD to "prove" image fusion worked. I never thought it proved what he said it did. Mind you, I have a 65" passive 3D TV.

And I'm unconvinced by what he says about the advantages of curved screens.

[EDIT] That image fusion claim basically said that with passive 3D there was no disadvantage as to resolution.
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post #65 of 133 Old 09-30-2015, 10:41 PM
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I'm just making this post so I can get to 15 posts and respond to a PM.
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post #66 of 133 Old 09-30-2015, 10:58 PM
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I think the curve is something new and different after tons of years of the same old flat screen. It's not necessarily better but I like it!
My next set is probably going to be the JS9500.
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post #67 of 133 Old 10-05-2015, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post
I would invest in getting a bigger space to live than buying a tv. But that's just me.
I have a big enough space, haha. But you make a good point - maybe 65-inch TV and sitting a bit farther from the screen will be a solution. Although a flat 55-inch would be best, maybe they will be available in my country (right now LG only lists curved ones as "coming soon" for my country). I sit that close to a TV by choice (I have near-sightedness which makes me like watching things up-close despite correcting the vision with contact lenses, it makes even my current 46 inch screen larger than cinema screen, haha).
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post #68 of 133 Old 10-05-2015, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bkolley View Post
Also, I'm near sighted in one eye and far sighted in the other so my depth perception suffers and my ability to resolve detail is quite limited unless I'm wearing my glasses, which I hate to do because the progressive lenses suck.
Because we often do not maintain a fixed posture (we often recline) progressive lenses and watching TV are incompatible. It is best to get fixed focal length glasses that you leave in your TV room. My dedicated home theater glasses were optimized for best focus to my screen from my viewing distance. This makes an extraordinary difference in being able to resolve detail. I also find the, great for driving at night.
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post #69 of 133 Old 10-05-2015, 09:06 PM
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I think the solution here is simple. Since the OP days that he got used to curved TVs after watching them for a while, we should take our old flat screens and bend them backwards. After a while regular flat TVs will have pictures that"pop." Problem solved.
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post #70 of 133 Old 10-05-2015, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Yes, but he makes a mistake; A mistake similar to many other mistakes that academics make by trusting calculations over observation and ending up with a bumblebee that cannot fly. That corner distortion he's talking about is correct only on paper. As humans, we've long since evolved to recognize straight vertical lines off to the right as straight vertical lines even if the top and bottom of them are further away.

I challenge anyone looking at a flat rectangle on the wall to see the corners as somehow curving outward similar to the dual (upright+inverted) keystone distortion he's talking about. You won't.
Yes, there is something "turned around" about the logic there and a bit self-refuting if you stare at it long enough. Sort of similar to some who I've seen argue that high frame rates, or frame interpolation looks fake because "it looks smoother than real life, in real life motion is blurred to our eyes." Uh...except since you aren't, "in real life," seeing the HFR as blurred, then these people should notice their proposal is self-refuting.

But back to the purported geometric compensation of the curved screen. Take a flat screen and a curved screen. I have a flat ruler the width of the TV screens. I hold the straight, flat ruler horizontally against the screen. Now I want to reproduce this, so we show an image of that ruler (same life size) on each screen.

Now which screen is going to reproduce the experience of seeing that flat horizontal line (i.e. an image of that same ruler, same size as the ruler)? Obviously: the flat screen. It will reproduce the ruler flat and unbent, just like the real ruler is flat. It's producing the same geometry to our eyes as the real ruler. To the degree our eyes, our visual system, introduces distortion to straight lines, the image of the flat ruler will be distorted just like the real flat ruler. Thus preserving accuracy of the real thing.

Whereas the curved screen will be ADDING a curved distortion that the real ruler does not have. Whatever "compensating" it is doing, it's not in the direction of accuracy to the image of the straight line/ruler.

As for curved screens in general, I've tried numerous times viewing them in the stores from various distances, usually trying to get an immersive sense of the image, then comparing to the flat screens, I found no advantage to the curved screens. I only end up noticing distortions, of the type mentioned above.
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post #71 of 133 Old 10-05-2015, 11:06 PM
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Thank you Rich. So well elucidated.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #72 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
But back to the purported geometric compensation of the curved screen. Take a flat screen and a curved screen. I have a flat ruler the width of the TV screens. I hold the straight, flat ruler horizontally against the screen. Now I want to reproduce this, so we show an image of that ruler (same life size) on each screen.

Now which screen is going to reproduce the experience of seeing that flat horizontal line (i.e. an image of that same ruler, same size as the ruler)? Obviously: the flat screen.
This would be a sham experiment. All you're really testing is the tautology that a flat screen is flat. (That's why we don't have to actually do the experiment to know how it would come out.) To tell whether flat horizontal lines are more easily discriminated when shown on a flat screen, you'd have to do a real experiment. And, besides, when viewing a TV show, we're generally interested in seeing more than flat lines.

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post #73 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 06:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
This would be a sham experiment. All you're really testing is the tautology that a flat screen is flat. (That's why we don't have to actually do the experiment to know how it would come out.) To tell whether flat horizontal lines are more easily discriminated when shown on a flat screen, you'd have to do a real experiment. And, besides, when viewing a TV show, we're generally interested in seeing more than flat lines.
"Sham" ???? Sure, we're "generally interested in seeing more than flat lines" but that logic itself is flawed for two reasons:
  1. It's not the quantity of straight lines that matter, it's how jarring it is to us when they do show up.
  2. ^^^Pursuant to that, if you were to look around at real life, if the straight lines of the door, the ceiling, the monitor edge, your desk, etc., etc., were curved it would drive you absolutely bonkers.

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post #74 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
  1. ^^^Pursuant to that, if you were to look around at real life, if the straight lines of the door, the ceiling, the monitor edge, your desk, etc., etc., were curved it would drive you absolutely bonkers.
No it wouldn't. Even if curved screens made some perception more difficult, which is by no means established by imaginary experiments, people adapt to distortions of vision -- even to turning everything upside down.

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post #75 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 07:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
No it wouldn't. Even if curved screens made some perception more difficult, which is by no means established by imaginary experiments, people adapt to distortions of vision -- even to turning everything upside down.
Over Time. But you're going from a straight line world IRL and plopping yourself in front of a curved line TV for a few hours only to return to a straight line world. It's just not that simple.

And BTW, that curved line world you're watching......it's on a TV right in front of a straight line wall or on a straight line platform, etc., etc....

Seriously, if you wish to make the claim that the curve doesn't bother you, then do so (you're certainly not alone). But not with the logic you're using. It's broken.

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post #76 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Over Time. But you're going from a straight line world IRL and plopping yourself in front of a curved line TV for a few hours only to return to a straight line world. It's just not that simple.

And BTW, that curved line world you're watching......it's on a TV right in front of a straight line wall or on a straight line platform, etc., etc....

Seriously, if you wish to make the claim that the curve doesn't bother you, then do so (you're certainly not alone). But not with the logic you're using. It's broken.
A flat screen is also a departure from the real world. What you see on a TV screen is a artificial representation/imitation of the real world. So plopping yourself in front of a flat TV for a few hours only to return to the real world is also tru. AFAIK you are correct that watching stuff on a distorted TV is crossing a line. It is not that different from changing all blue colors in TV content to red.

What's a bit odd here is that Gregg often stated that he tweaks settings so that it looks more like the real world, while simultaneously he wants that ''realistic'' image to be distorted (curved).
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post #77 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 08:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
A flat screen is also a departure from the real world. What you see on a TV screen is a artificial representation/imitation of the real world. So plopping yourself in front of a flat TV for a few hours only to return to the real world is also tru.
Sure, but that's true in both cases.

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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
AFAIK you are correct that watching stuff on a distorted TV is crossing a line.
Yep. Your swapping colors out similie might be overzealous, but I get the intent: Anything jarring will pull you out of the film. And for many of us, this curved business is just that.
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post #78 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 08:53 AM
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Fur us, curved it out of the question. The main TV 60 inch is viewed from a large couch, 13 feet away, from many different angles, depending how many are sitting there or if one of use decide to lay on it not dead center. Our bedroom TV, 50 inch also at 13 feet, is not dead center due to all the windows so curved would be very bad. My wife and I simulated these positions in stores and found curved not good. Regardless if you like curved or not it simply won't work for people who are not dead center all the time.

As for picture quality, I notice some here saying the curves are better. The reason I think is that the top end TVs being offered are all curved. The flat screens from Samsung are not their best which is putting us off from upgrading.

Forgot to mention... I agree with console above that if you don't have perfect eye site TV glasses are a must. My wife and I have glasses just for 13 Feet TV viewing and its makes a world of difference. If you spend a lot on the TV don't chince on this,

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post #79 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
This would be a sham experiment. All you're really testing is the tautology that a flat screen is flat. (That's why we don't have to actually do the experiment to know how it would come out.) To tell whether flat horizontal lines are more easily discriminated when shown on a flat screen, you'd have to do a real experiment. And, besides, when viewing a TV show, we're generally interested in seeing more than flat lines.
No, it's a simple example to get across the concept of the apparently mis-placed priorities of the curve - relative to the claim about "correcting" geometric distortion.

"Displaymate" wrote:

"When you watch a perfectly flat TV screen, the corners of the screen are further away than the center so they appear smaller. As a result, the eye doesn’t see the screen as a perfect rectangle – it actually sees dual elongated trapezoids, which is keystone geometric distortion. "

If our eyes naturally perceive a rectangle (twith a certain FOV) as a dual elongated trapezoid, then maintaining this effect is accurate to how we see such shapes in real life. I have a musical keyboard underneath my computer monitor on my desk. Do I need it to be re-curved slightly so as to reduce the "elongated trapezoid" effect? No. That's how my eyes naturally see actual straight, wide rectangles! Why alter it?

From my previous example, replace the "ruler" with an on-screen image - the side view of a cargo truck spanning the width of the screen. The Trailer spanning most of the screen width is a rectangle and if our visual system naturally will see this as a dual elongated trapezoid, then that image is presenting our eyes with the a natural view of the truck's geometry. Our eyes will see those lines just as they would the real truck taking up the same FOV.

Curved cinema screens have usually been curved to *correct* for distortion that has been *added* to the reproduction of the images by the combination of lens and throw distance of the projector. Curved TVs are doing no such thing: they are simply adding a geometric curving to the image.

When you go to art galleries you don't see curved frames or curved paintings for a good reason. It wouldn't be a "fix" for the actual *content* of the images, it would be a distortion.

It's like taking a rectangular window the size of a TV, through which you can view a cityscape. And then adding a slight curve to the shape of the window, bending the glass and warping the image of the city. Have you just made the shape of the window appear more evenly rectangular to your eyes? Sure. But at the expense of ALTERING the geometry of what you actually care about: what you want to view through the window.

It's the same with curving a TV screen. It's a misplaced set of priorities to curve the screen so that the screen shape itself becomes (now unnaturally) more straight looking. I don't care about the geometry of the screen shape: I care about preserving the geometry of the SOURCE content, the image I"m watching.


And when I'm in front of curved screens I tend to be aware of the warped geometry. I'm sure you can get used to it, but then we can get used to all sorts of things. I remember a pal of mine invited me over to watch a movie on his projector, years ago. Over time the image had disintegrated to the point were literally the right 1/3 of the image was totally washed out blue. Like, almost gone. When I said "when do you think you are going to want to fix your projector?" he said "Fix what, why?" I had to go up to the screen and point "this part here, notice 1/3 of your image completely blue and washed out?" "Oh...yeah...wow....never noticed..." He'd gotten so used to it he literally couldn't see it anymore. So that anyone can get used, even quickly, to geometric distortion of the image is neither here nor there to someone who prefers the geometry to be more accurately maintained (and who therefore may be more sensitive to the distortion and notice it more).

Anyway, nothing written in stone there. Just my thoughts thus far on the curved screens.

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post #80 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
And, besides, when viewing a TV show, we're generally interested in seeing more than flat lines.
Flat and other straight lines are just examples of whether the geometry is right. If they are wrong other shapes will be too.

Here is a thought experiment. I understand that cockpits are curved, but imagine that somebody sets up a Red camera to get normal geometry for a camera and puts this about 10' from the center of a real cockpit. This is then played back on a display. Which display would get the geometries of the lines, buttons, etc. to most closely match what they would be for a human looking from the camera's position, a flat display or curved? If curved, how curved?

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post #81 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 11:50 AM
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Apropos of nothing, most commercial jets actually don't have curved wildshields (though newer models like the 787 do).

For some interesting history: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...d.main/195236/

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #82 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
What's a bit odd here is that Gregg often stated that he tweaks settings so that it looks more like the real world, while simultaneously he wants that ''realistic'' image to be distorted (curved).
Yes, I do that. I am not proposing that curved screens have some sort of advantage. I am simply resisting this intuitively arrived at theory that they produce distortion. Maybe they do, but I'd want to see some real evidence, as opposed to some restatement of the argument that flat is better than curved because curved is not flat.

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post #83 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

If our eyes naturally perceive a rectangle (twith a certain FOV) as a dual elongated trapezoid, then maintaining this effect is accurate to how we see such shapes in real life. I have a musical keyboard underneath my computer monitor on my desk. Do I need it to be re-curved slightly so as to reduce the "elongated trapezoid" effect? No. That's how my eyes naturally see actual straight, wide rectangles! Why alter it?
Natural? What's natural about flat surfaces? What's natural about viewing photos, or oil paintings, or the techniques of perspective drawing on flat surfaces invented in the 16th century? Were the silhouette techniques of the ancient Egyptians natural? IMO, you're mistaking what you've become accustomed to with what is intrinsic to the human visual system.

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post #84 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Natural? What's natural about flat surfaces? What's natural about viewing photos, or oil paintings, or the techniques of perspective drawing on flat surfaces invented in the 16th century? Were the silhouette techniques of the ancient Egyptians natural? IMO, you're mistaking what you've become accustomed to with what is intrinsic to the human visual system.
Greg, you are losing the plot somewhat here.

The debate is specifically centered on the claim about preserving geometry. If you photograph a straight line, or straight lined shape, and your display makes the straight line curved, it is not preserving the geometry of the object in the source material. Why do you think, for instance, that a standard part of calibrating CRTs for all those years had to do with fixing drifts in geometry (e.g. you'd play a line pattern that should be straight, but when the geometry of the TV was off, would show curves, and the calibrator could often fix this problem).

What do you think the "Pincushion Effect" is and why is it understood as a distortion? And why do you think people who set up projectors, especially with anamorphic lenses that can exacerbate it if not set up carefully, bother trying to remove this effect? Because it's an unnecessary and unwelcome distortion of the signal.

Are there compromises and departures from reality and accuracy in film, photography, art etc. Of course. Does that mean therefore NOTHING can be preserved and that therefore ALL DISTORTIONS may as well be as acceptable? Of course not. Are you going to dial the skin tones on your display to purple any time soon?
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post #85 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
What do you think the "Pincushion Effect" is and why is it understood as a distortion?
I think it is understood as a distortion because it departs from the conventions we are familiar with for depicting scenes on flat surfaces. Those are conventions that were human inventions arrived at many thousands of years after our species first evolved. They are not natural. They are conventional.



from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curvilinear_perspective.
and see
.

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post #86 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 02:44 PM
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GregLee,

Since you have an issue with man made things, just take a tree, either standing or on the ground. Do you want it to be displayed as straight or curved as it actually would be if a human was looking at it in real life, or with a different amount of curvature?

What is relevant is how our eyes perceive things. If it takes curved on the back of our eye to perceive straight then correcting something that is straight and looks straight to try to make it straight on the back of our eye actually makes a straight object look less straight to human vision. Of course the same applies to accuracy of other shapes too.

--Darin

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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
GregLee,

Since you have an issue with man made things, just take a tree, ...
My name is Greg. I don't think it is reasonable to conclude from what I have said that I have an issue with man-made things. I don't have any particular opinion about the best way to depict trees.

Greg Lee

Last edited by GregLee; 10-06-2015 at 03:23 PM.
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post #88 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 03:27 PM
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post #89 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 03:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Oh geeze....
Even though I insist he's mistaken, I do think I understand what Greg is saying. IMO he's just misapplying an argument.

He's saying a variant on the theme of "images in the eye are only relative to themselves, not relative to any presupposed 'reality' which cannot be compared to as some sort of stake in the sand to measure by". Or less clumsy words to that effect.

I've used this argument before in combating a mistake: When reading about the various versions of the "Inverted Vision" experiments where people seeing images upside down eventually see things just fine (wearing inverted goggles), some friends of mine were convinced that there was an inherent disconnect between the upside down view and "reality". They were convinced that as you bend your head downward slowly, you should always have an image that "latches" to that motion (in some way) and for some reason the ground wouldn't seem to be at the "bottom".

This is of course, false, as Greg would agree. As the person looks downward with the goggles on, more and more of the ground comes into view, just as with the person without the goggles on. My friends had made a fundamental error----in assuming that there was a "right" way to view things. A way that somehow better matches reality. In that case there just isn't.

However, this isn't that case at all with curved TVs. This is a case of having a screen of one geometric effect set an environment (the room) of another geometric effect. There are suddenly conflicting rule systems simultaneously in the same space. Even if you were in total cave darkness, you'd be asked to quickly switch rule systems.

It's just not a comfortable scenario for many of us.

Last edited by tgm1024; 10-06-2015 at 03:46 PM.
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post #90 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
don't think it is reasonable to conclude from what I have said that I have an issue with man-made things..
I thought you were saying that straight lines didn't exist long ago so humans didn't evolve to see things that were straight as straight.

The question is how we replicate what a person would actually see in real life. Human vision was largely set by the time this became an issue.

I question whether Dr. Soneita's position really applies to the general cases and not just some extreme case like lights in a circle by way in the distance.

Here is another thought experiment.

Put a camera in front of a soccer goal and record it. Play this on a curved display and record that with the camera, then play this and record. Do this for 10 iterations.

Repeat from the first video of the soccer goal on a flat display.

Now which display will come the closest to showing the soccer goal as a rectangle to human vision?

--Darin

Last edited by darinp2; 10-06-2015 at 05:05 PM.
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