Am I crazy for liking the curve? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Of course. Does that mean therefore NOTHING can be preserved and that therefore ALL DISTORTIONS may as well be as acceptable? Of course not.
Of course not. I'm against all distortions. What is good and true should be preserved.

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post #92 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Of course not. I'm against all distortions. What is good and true should be preserved.
Then what are you arguing against?

Here's how a geometrically straight pattern is supposed to look on a TV:





Here's what happens (e.g. on a CRT display) when the geometry is off - it's produced curved, distorted, bowed:



Setting aside the color distortion, surely you understand why such geometric distortion of the signal would be undesirable right? The distortion will apply to ALL images, though will be most noticeable where there are supposed to be straight lines in the image.

Why then shouldn't anyone be concerned when a TV that imposes geometric distortion on the images, by curving the screen?




Your posts just aren't making sense.
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post #93 of 133 Old 10-06-2015, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Your posts just aren't making sense.
I have a similar reaction to yours. In a discussion of whether the differences in displays caused by curved screens should be regarded as distortions, to continue to argue that curved screens are bad because they cause distortion is just circular. It's empty. Fallacious. When you tell me that we should avoid distortion, well, I just wonder how dumb you think I am. Are you trying to trap me into admitting that, yes, I really am fond of distortion?

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post #94 of 133 Old 10-07-2015, 06:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
I have a similar reaction to yours. In a discussion of whether the differences in displays caused by curved screens should be regarded as distortions, to continue to argue that curved screens are bad because they cause distortion is just circular. It's empty. Fallacious. When you tell me that we should avoid distortion, well, I just wonder how dumb you think I am. Are you trying to trap me into admitting that, yes, I really am fond of distortion?
In the thought experiment of a ruler in front of a screen and displayed on the screen, is there no advantage in your opinion to having the picture of the ruler be as "unbent" as the ruler sitting in front of the screen?
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post #95 of 133 Old 10-07-2015, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
In the thought experiment of a ruler in front of a screen and displayed on the screen, is there no advantage in your opinion to having the picture of the ruler be as "unbent" as the ruler sitting in front of the screen?
I don't know -- I'd have to know what "advantage" means here. If it means, say, can you easily recognize it as being a ruler -- what the image is intended to portray -- then we'd have to do an experiment to see. It would be difficult to set up so there were no biases, and the result wouldn't be very interesting. We might well find that people recognize rulers more readily on flat screens. At least we'd have a factual basis for telling whether curved screens impair perception, instead of just looking for ways to rationalize our prejudices.

If you looked at the reference I gave on curvilinear coordinates, you will have noticed that proponents of using them claim that they work better, because of the way the retina is curved. I wouldn't accept that without evidence, but I wouldn't reject it without evidence, either.

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post #96 of 133 Old 10-07-2015, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
I don't know -- I'd have to know what "advantage" means here. If it means, say, can you easily recognize it as being a ruler -- what the image is intended to portray -- then we'd have to do an experiment to see. It would be difficult to set up so there were no biases, and the result wouldn't be very interesting. We might well find that people recognize rulers more readily on flat screens. At least we'd have a factual basis for telling whether curved screens impair perception, instead of just looking for ways to rationalize our prejudices.

If you looked at the reference I gave on curvilinear coordinates, you will have noticed that proponents of using them claim that they work better, because of the way the retina is curved. I wouldn't accept that without evidence, but I wouldn't reject it without evidence, either.
This is really not that hard.

Take a ruler and a piece of paper. Trace the outline of the ruler on to the paper. View the two together to see how the straightness of the geometry is preserved.

Now bend the paper just as a curved TV is bent. Observe how the lines now curve. Do you really think it is difficult to answer the question: which version more accurately conveys the geometry of the original tracing/ruler? A straight line depiction of a straight ruler, or a curved line depiction of a straight ruler?
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post #97 of 133 Old 10-07-2015, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Now bend the paper just as a curved TV is bent. Observe how the lines now curve. Do you really think it is difficult to answer the question: which version more accurately conveys the geometry of the original tracing/ruler? A straight line depiction of a straight ruler, or a curved line depiction of a straight ruler?
My intuition is that if you bend a ruler and look at it, it will look less like a straight ruler than it did before you bent it. See how agreeable I can be when I try?

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post #98 of 133 Old 10-07-2015, 01:17 PM
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My intuition is that if you bend a ruler and look at it, it will look less like a straight ruler than it did before you bent it. See how agreeable I can be when I try?
Could you answer more clearly please?

My question was not about bending a ruler itself, it was about choosing accurate depictions of that ruler.

If you want to accurately depict the geometric straight-lined character of a straight ruler, which representation will do that better:

1. The flat paper with the outline that remains un-curved.

2. The paper with the outline that has been curved?


Which would you answer, 1 or 2?
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post #99 of 133 Old 10-07-2015, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Could you answer more clearly please?

My question was not about bending a ruler itself, it was about choosing accurate depictions of that ruler.

If you want to accurately depict the geometric straight-lined character of a straight ruler, which representation will do that better:

1. The flat paper with the outline that remains un-curved.

2. The paper with the outline that has been curved?


Which would you answer, 1 or 2?
Assuming that the background against which I view the paper with the image remains unchanged, so that the paper image looks essentially like an actual ruler being bent, I believe I did indirectly answer your question. When you bend a thing, it ordinarily looks like it's been bent. However, to be explicit, I choose your #1 , as being the image which is not bent and will consequently appear not to be bent. Other things being equal.

Okay?

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post #100 of 133 Old 10-07-2015, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
I thought you were saying that straight lines didn't exist long ago so humans didn't evolve to see things that were straight as straight.

The question is how we replicate what a person would actually see in real life. Human vision was largely set by the time this became an issue.

I question whether Dr. Soneita's position really applies to the general cases and not just some extreme case like lights in a circle by way in the distance.

Here is another thought experiment.

Put a camera in front of a soccer goal and record it. Play this on a curved display and record that with the camera, then play this and record. Do this for 10 iterations.

Repeat from the first video of the soccer goal on a flat display.

Now which display will come the closest to showing the soccer goal as a rectangle to human vision?

--Darin
To me, the screen should be flat because the image was captured on a flat sensor plane, be that a piece of film negative or a digital sensor. If they sensor was curved, then I'd be inclinded to watch on a curved display. But I see a curved screen as distorting a flat scene (as captured through the lens) and therefore not correct.
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post #101 of 133 Old 10-07-2015, 05:37 PM
 
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To me, the screen should be flat because the image was captured on a flat sensor plane, be that a piece of film negative or a digital sensor. If they sensor was curved, then I'd be inclinded to watch on a curved display. But I see a curved screen as distorting a flat scene (as captured through the lens) and therefore not correct.
Yeah, I've been saying that for years as well. Doesn't sink in much to the curved lovers, but to each his own I suppose.

I think the reason that folks don't accept that as a good reason more often might have to do with the fact that it's difficult to visualize because the curve is slight. The way to imagine this would be attempting to capture a wrap-around image onto a flat sensor and having that one image meant for both flat and wrap around screens. It cannot work.
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post #102 of 133 Old 10-07-2015, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Assuming that the background against which I view the paper with the image remains unchanged, so that the paper image looks essentially like an actual ruler being bent, I believe I did indirectly answer your question. When you bend a thing, it ordinarily looks like it's been bent. However, to be explicit, I choose your #1 , as being the image which is not bent and will consequently appear not to be bent. Other things being equal.

Okay?
Yup. Thanks.
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post #103 of 133 Old 10-08-2015, 12:59 AM
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I'm glad we've "resolved" this: People are entitled to like curved screens but there is no argument that they are geometrically superior or actually accurate. That the curve is slight doesn't change those facts.

That doesn't mean in some applications they are bad. It doesn't mean you shouldn't buy them.

It does mean those of us seeking accuracy (or quite frankly real-world ergonomics for non-solo viewers) are going to continue to reject them as inferior. And at least some of us are looking forward to the day where the fad is over and curved screens are either (a) gone or (b) relegated to niche product status.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #104 of 133 Old 10-08-2015, 06:43 AM
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I like the aesthetic of the curved screen from a furniture aspect, and the curve is so slight on my EG that these abhorrent geometric distortions (the curve too for that matter) are not even noticed whilst immersed in content. Other than the manufacturers, I've not met too may people championing it as being superior to flat image viewing, just different.

In my particular application, it doesn't make enough of a visual difference (to my eyes) for me to seek out flat just out of principle. I guess someone would need to side by side show me just how bad my television's image is compared to the flat version for me to regret being okay with it.
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post #105 of 133 Old 10-08-2015, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I'm glad we've "resolved" this:
What is resolved is that bending an image on paper of a straight ruler, just the ruler alone, will make the image appear to be bent. A bent TV screen showing an image of a ruler will also show the background and surroundings of the ruler as bent. For a viewer to recognize the ruler as straight, it seems to me that that is quite different, especially if you allow some adaptation time,

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post #106 of 133 Old 10-08-2015, 04:46 PM
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I put "resolved" in quotes because there's a specific grammatical meaning for doing so.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #107 of 133 Old 10-08-2015, 05:00 PM
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Personally, I just think that Greg doesn't want to admit that he is wrong. Logical arguments have been presented that he has rejected, and he wants to move to perception that can't be measured.

To help him out, let me propose a theory. I don't know if it is true.

Fact: Our eyes are designed to take a trapezoid image and convert it to a rectangle.
Fact: A flat screen will best represent that image over a curved screen
Theory: When presented with a curved image of a straight line, might our eyes interpret the image in such a way that the image appears to have more "depth"?

Basically, when our eye sees a straight line when it is expecting a curve, it adjusts the image into our head to think that we are seeing something that is not is deeper than a flat image? Some people might see that additional "depth" and like the picture quality more than a flat image. It isn't accurate, but it could be like the concept of 3D - you see a fish right in front of you even though it isn't really there.
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post #108 of 133 Old 10-08-2015, 06:11 PM
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Theory: When presented with a curved image of a straight line, might our eyes interpret the image in such a way that the image appears to have more "depth"?
It's conceivable. But your interesting speculation is not in aid of any point I've tried to make. I'm having a difficulty now that I've been in before -- people don't seem to understand how you can be against something without being for some alternative. I have not proposed that curved screens offer some sort of visual advantage over flat screens. I just never said any such thing. I have proposed that the arguments offered here in favor of flat screens avoiding distortion are bogus. That doesn't mean there aren't good arguments in favor of flat screens that haven't yet appeared. Maybe so. My intuition is that it is an evidentiary issue that cannot be settled by philosophical ruminations on the true nature of straightness or of right angles. Do curved screens make perception more difficult? It would take experiments to tell that.

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post #109 of 133 Old 10-08-2015, 06:27 PM
 
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It's conceivable. But your interesting speculation is not in aid of any point I've tried to make. I'm having a difficulty now that I've been in before -- people don't seem to understand how you can be against something without being for some alternative. I have not proposed that curved screens offer some sort of visual advantage over flat screens. I just never said any such thing. I have proposed that the arguments offered here in favor of flat screens avoiding distortion are bogus. That doesn't mean there aren't good arguments in favor of flat screens that haven't yet appeared. Maybe so. My intuition is that it is an evidentiary issue that cannot be settled by philosophical ruminations on the true nature of straightness or of right angles. Do curved screens make perception more difficult? It would take experiments to tell that.
Except that you didn't address one of my points that a curved screen, regardless of how well adapted you have become to it, is sitting in a non-curved universe (on a non-curved table or a non-curved wall, with non curved doors in a non curved room, etc.).

There will always be a relative conflict here (on-screen vs. surroundings), unless you're in total cave darkness, in which case you're counting on the time it takes for you to adapt to be quick relative to the length of a movie, etc.
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post #110 of 133 Old 10-08-2015, 06:43 PM
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Except that you didn't address one of my points that a curved screen, regardless of how well adapted you have become to it, is sitting in a non-curved universe (on a non-curved table or a non-curved wall, with non curved doors in a non curved room, etc.).
I didn't understand it.

If there are a lot of straight lines in the surroundings, wouldn't this make it easier to detect straight lines, regardless of screen curvature? For instance, if a ruler is lying on a rectangular desk and I see that the ruler is everywhere equidistant from a side of the desk (which I know to have straight sides), then I can deduce that the ruler is also straight, regardless of any waviness introduced into the picture.

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post #111 of 133 Old 10-08-2015, 09:22 PM
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I put "resolved" in quotes because there's a specific grammatical meaning for doing so.
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post #112 of 133 Old 10-09-2015, 08:29 AM
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Do curved screens make perception more difficult? It would take experiments to tell that.
No, it doesn't. The great thing about logic/math is that the experiment is unnecessary. If A=B and B=C then A=C. You don't need to run an experiment to prove it.
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No, it doesn't. The great thing about logic/math is that the experiment is unnecessary. If A=B and B=C then A=C. You don't need to run an experiment to prove it.
Yeah, but there are no truly self evident facts that carry weight without evaluation (not even 1+1=2). If we're going to disagree with Greg, let's not trip into a different logical fallacy altogether to do it.
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post #114 of 133 Old 10-09-2015, 10:25 AM
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No, it doesn't. The great thing about logic/math is that the experiment is unnecessary. If A=B and B=C then A=C. You don't need to run an experiment to prove it.
I'm glad that someone here has finally recogtnized that the argument "distortions are undesirable" is not a fact about the world.

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post #115 of 133 Old 10-09-2015, 03:59 PM
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I'm glad that someone here has finally recogtnized that the argument "distortions are undesirable" is not a fact about the world.
What thread were you reading?

The point I'd been making (and as far as I could tell, others as well) simply had to do with which screen would better preserve geometry.

The question of what one prefers did not enter this at all. If you like curved screens, go nuts (and rogo has said the same). (And as it happens, I used tube amplifiers in my 2 channel system - cognizant that they produce some level of distortion that my ears like). I prefer a screen that does not curve the geometry, but you don't have to.

But when it comes to claims about which type of screen will tend to distort image geometry more than the other, that is not a strictly subjective claim.
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post #116 of 133 Old 10-09-2015, 05:39 PM
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I'm glad that someone here has finally recogtnized that the argument "distortions are undesirable" is not a fact about the world.
I think multiple people here thought you were arguing against claims that they cause distortions compared to the same objects in the real world given that you previously said:
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I am not proposing that curved screens have some sort of advantage. I am simply resisting this intuitively arrived at theory that they produce distortion.
but now it feels like you have transitioned into your position being that it may not really matter.

Part of the discussion was about Dr. Soneira's position that curved screens are actually more accurate because they correct for a factor where a rectangle doesn't show up as a perfect rectangle in the eyes and I think multiple people thought you were arguing about accuracy for a while, not preference.

--Darin

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post #117 of 133 Old 10-09-2015, 05:43 PM
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Part of the discussion was about Dr. Soneira's position that curved screens are actually more accurate because they correct for a factor where a rectangle doesn't show up as a perfect rectangle in the eyes and I think multiple people thought you were arguing about accuracy for a while, not preference.
I might have added, "oddly indefensible" between Soneira's and position. But that's just me.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #118 of 133 Old 10-09-2015, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
But when it comes to claims about which type of screen will tend to distort image geometry more than the other, that is not a strictly subjective claim.
Until you say what counts as a "distortion", it's not even a meaningful claim, unless you intend "distortion" in the everyday sense that it is an undesirable alteration. And if you do mean it in that sense, in effect you are saying that undesirable alterations are undesirable. That's just playing with words.

What do you mean by "preserving image geometry"? If you step to the right or left from the center position in front of a flat screen display, the image you see will undergo changes of a sort that do not occur when you are looking in person at a real scene. If you go far enough to one side of a flat screen TV, all you can see is a vertical line. Surely, that changes image geometry.

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post #119 of 133 Old 10-09-2015, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Part of the discussion was about Dr. Soneira's position that curved screens are actually more accurate because they correct for a factor where a rectangle doesn't show up as a perfect rectangle in the eyes and I think multiple people thought you were arguing about accuracy for a while, not preference.
Being a realist (not a calibrationist), accuracy is all that counts for me. I inherit that from Rich Harkness' "Steaming Rat" posting of 2003, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...tic-image.html. What that means is that what you see on a video display should be like what you see when you look at the actual scene that is portrayed. That is not like preference, at all.

Apparently, Rich has come to think that flat screens are more accurate, in this sense, than curved screens, but it is a mystery to me why. What counts, in this sense of accuracy, is human perception. In all this discussion of reasons given for the supposed accuracy of flat displays, there is no appeal at all to how we interpret what we see, and consequently, so far as I'm concerned, there is no pertinent evidence yet given.

Greg Lee

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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
What do you mean by "preserving image geometry"? If you step to the right or left from the center position in front of a flat screen display, the image you see will undergo changes of a sort that do not occur when you are looking in person at a real scene. If you go far enough to one side of a flat screen TV, all you can see is a vertical line. Surely, that changes image geometry.
And looking at the surface of the ruler when you step far to the side, and the surface of the ruler becomes a vertical line as well. {shrug}

But try that with a curved screen, and part of the image will become oddly occluded by the nearest side. Certainly that isn't "adaptable" by our eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
In all this discussion of reasons given for the supposed accuracy of flat displays, there is no appeal at all to how we interpret what we see, and consequently, so far as I'm concerned, there is no pertinent evidence yet given.
Still not right. The issue of "how we interpret what we see"--->My point includes all of that by pointing out that in the case of the curved screen, both scenarios are present---the screen itself and the environment it is in.

For a scene of a room, this presents a straight line room (the room the room you're in) and a curved room (the scene on the display) simultaneously. Which do you suppose you adapt to?

Last edited by tgm1024; 10-09-2015 at 07:03 PM.
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