What's the downfall of the LG OLED's? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by TheLoveone View Post
Yet in real life these sets are perfectly accurate when calibrated. So what's the problem?
Depends on your definition of "perfectly accurate" I suppose. Take a look at the post calibration color gamut charts in the Value Electronics 2015 shootout: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...t-results.html

Look at the curves in the primaries and secondaries at various saturation levels. It's most pronounced with cyan and magenta, but even red and green change hue as the saturation changes. It's not horrible, but it's not world class either. And that's only for the measured points along the RGB and CMY axes. If you sample other points across the gamut I'm sure you'd find similar errors.

Even with just RGB subpixels manufacturers seem to have a difficult time producing a color decoder which puts 100% red at the correct point in the gamut at the same time that 25%, 50%, and 75% are also at the correct point. That's why folks have turned to 3D LUT processors to make CMS adjustments at many points in the gamut. Adding another subpixel just makes the original color decoding more difficult and the need for multipoint calibration more necessary.
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post #32 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 11:21 AM
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I know I know the answer.....

The forum is the downfall right now for the EF9500 OLED



Sorry

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post #33 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 11:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JoeyBagadonuts View Post
Isn't it basically both? The white component helps to efficiently get the desired brightness? (Less overall power consumption to get the same brightness?)
No, because the overall limiter is the brightness which cannot change. For instance, after the CMS hooey has tweaked everything, a full on saturation red can only be represented with a 1/0/0/0 RGBW. That's as bright as it gets. Having the W does nothing to increase that. All it does do is lessen the current draw when there are more than one of the subs in the triad in use.

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Only one I know of (in the U.S. at least): LG's UF6800. It's an RGBW LCD.
Based on what little I could find about that beast in their additional notes, and the RTings comment about it not being a "real" 4K because it's missing some subpixels (crummy phrasing on their part), it seems like it's similar to one of the Samsung Pentile arrangements. This isn't a true RGBW as a 4th sub added to a true RGB. It's a weird breaking up of triads, some of which include white, and some don't.

In this particular case it's purely a way to make a cheaper lower resolution display behave a little like a 4K display, but in other cases, such pentile-like (lowercase p) organization has distinct advantages in reducing grid-based aliasing. As with the later generation Samsung Galaxy Note's, they really produce nice effects with text.
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post #34 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
No, because the overall limiter is the brightness which cannot change. For instance, after the CMS hooey has tweaked everything, a full on saturation red can only be represented with a 1/0/0/0 RGBW. That's as bright as it gets. Having the W does nothing to increase that. All it does do is lessen the current draw when there are more than one of the subs in the triad in use.
I understand what you're saying now, thanks. Makes sense to me.

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Based on what little I could find about that beast in their additional notes, ...This isn't a true RGBW as a 4th sub added to a true RGB. It's a weird breaking up of triads, some of which include white, and some don't.
Yes, that's exactly what it is.
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post #35 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 09:20 PM
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I think lot of those "issues" are from people just being overly critical. Example I see people complain because of pink tint yet they can only see it when displaying a pure white slide. Things like that.



Biggest issue is motion performance. It's not great, but even still it's as good as most lcds. From what I've read its really only noticeable with sports..bump up the motion correction and it's gone. Who cares about some SOE during a live football game.
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post #36 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 09:40 PM
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beside vignetting and yellow band and poor performance on low black levels
1- video processing on LG has always lagging behind other major brands samsung, sony ...
2- lack of BFI, so motion is not that great
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post #37 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 10:04 PM
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Most people dont get it and thats very fine with me. Its something from my youth as well as others. No regrets and thank you for the recognition.
I got it, and as an Ohio State grad I also noticed the blue M. You guys are looking better.
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post #38 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
In short, you're operating on a brightness premise.

The only cogent theory I've seen floated from the beginning as to the reason for the white sub wasn't brightness. It was LG stacked OLED power consumption.

And this makes sense. In a filtered setup, you lose a great deal of light due to the filter. A filter's job is to throw light away. The white sub allows the commonality (the gray component) to be unencumbered.

And BTW, what "budget" 4K TVs do you see using RGBW?
Brightness and power consumption are the same reasons. Just like I wrote. When you save energy you gain brightness.
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post #39 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by golfster View Post
I got it, and as an Ohio State grad I also noticed the blue M. You guys are looking better.
Its shaping up to be a great game the last Saturday in November.

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post #40 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 05:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by steak2 View Post
Brightness and power consumption are the same reasons. Just like I wrote. When you save energy you gain brightness.
Again, no, you have this wrong now, and if you wrote that as such earlier you had it wrong then.

After all is said and done with the CMS and the panel is about to be driven, if you have a single sub on (full saturation for that primary), there is nothing you can do to increase brightness. Nothing. No adding of white will help you because it will desaturate that primary.

Use the example I gave earlier. A panel being driven with a fully saturated single sub red. That's as red as you get. Period end of story. No brighter. The equivalent of a 1/0/0/0 to the RGBW (normalized [0-1]). There is no brightness to be gained at all. All that white sub does is save you power when 3 primaries are engaged to some degree.
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post #41 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
The equivalent of a 1/0/0/0 to the RGBW (normalized [0-1]). There is no brightness to be gained at all. All that white sub does is save you power when 3 primaries are engaged to some degree.
Personally, I'm still struggling with one thing:

Consider the following case, RGBW pixel (normalized [0-1]):

0.75/0.50/0.25/1.0

My thinking tells me that color (saturation, hue, luminance) resulting from that RGBW pixel cannot be duplicated if you "turn off" the white sub-pixel. You could re-create the same saturation and hue without the W subpixel by altering the RGB mix, but it would have less luminance than the pixel above. So it appears to me that the W subpixel would seem to allow greater brightness over at least some range of saturation and hue.

Is that right?

Last edited by JoeyBagadonuts; 10-14-2015 at 08:37 AM. Reason: (edited for clarity)
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post #42 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Again, no, you have this wrong now, and if you wrote that as such earlier you had it wrong then.

After all is said and done with the CMS and the panel is about to be driven, if you have a single sub on (full saturation for that primary), there is nothing you can do to increase brightness. Nothing. No adding of white will help you because it will desaturate that primary.

Use the example I gave earlier. A panel being driven with a fully saturated single sub red. That's as red as you get. Period end of story. No brighter. The equivalent of a 1/0/0/0 to the RGBW (normalized [0-1]). There is no brightness to be gained at all. All that white sub does is save you power when 3 primaries are engaged to some degree.
No. Brightness and power consumption are two sides of the same medal. Read my first post and you will see that I basically wrote the same like in your first part.
Brightness is the limited ressource for now for OLEDs. Thats why.
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post #43 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 10:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by steak2 View Post
No. Brightness and power consumption are two sides of the same medal. Read my first post and you will see that I basically wrote the same like in your first part.
Brightness is the limited ressource for now for OLEDs. Thats why.
Brightness has a limit. OLED's can only be driven so hard before wear kicks in. Power consumption does not. You're still missing what's going on here.
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post #44 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 10:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JoeyBagadonuts View Post
Personally, I'm still struggling with one thing:

Consider the following case, RGBW pixel (normalized [0-1]):

0.75/0.50/0.25/1.0

My thinking tells me that color (saturation, hue, luminance) resulting from that RGBW pixel cannot be duplicated if you "turn off" the white sub-pixel. You could re-create the same saturation and hue without the W subpixel by altering the RGB mix, but it would have less luminance than the pixel above. So it appears to me that the W subpixel would seem to allow greater brightness over at least some range of saturation and hue.

Is that right?
IF they're using a variant of an additive version of undercolor removal in CMYK (which I've used in the distant past before both in additive and subtractive color spaces) then the 4-tupple that you presented is invalid. Note: it could well be that the various subs are so out of whack by their vary nature or by manufacturing that the CMS system always needs to add a smidgeon white. But I can't see that RGBW you presented ever forming in the first place. There would be nothing populating that W; or else (as you guessed) they run the risk of dramatically pumping out too much light for naturally desaturated combinations of RGB. They can't do the same for the other subs when one of them is at zero. There's only so much light a red, for instance, can pump out.

BTW, for anyone reading this, be aware that all of this is theory battling theory. LG is so tight lipped about everything they're really doing (as they should be) that some years ago we had to go back to the original Kodak patents to figure out what they were likely up to.
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post #45 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by anis_ber View Post
beside vignetting and yellow band and poor performance on low black levels
1- video processing on LG has always lagging behind other major brands samsung, sony ...
2- lack of BFI, so motion is not that great

You bring up some fantastic points! Interestingly the Samsung 2013 55 OLED resolved 1080 lines in motion or 1200 according to CNET with its MCFI or BFI. It could do it either way independently. The problem with BFI is decreased brightness in the screen by going from 350 nits to 160 nits according to the review linked below. So if Samsung can get 1080 lines in motion with MCFI why can't LG? How is OLED with the fastest pixel refresh rate of any TV tech ever have the worst motion resolution of all TV types currently. All LED sets directly in competition with the OLED can easily do 1080 in motion. OK even cheap LCD's like the Samsung 32J6300 can do 1080 in motion.


Concerning the poor performance on low black levels or black crush it is a shame LG sets are not THX certified anymore as if they were I don't think this would be an issue. The 2013 55in. LG OLED was anyway.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ke55s9c-201310273395.htm

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post #46 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 11:26 AM
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It was my understanding that LG's OLED TVs could have 1080 lines of motion resolution when using interpolation - it's just that a large part of AVS's videophiles hate anything to do with interpolation and/or high frame rates.
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post #47 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Brightness has a limit. OLED's can only be driven so hard before wear kicks in. Power consumption does not. You're still missing what's going on here.
No, you still are. As OLED draws more power, they wear out. The white subpixel is basically assisting the RGB ones so that they dont have to be driven out and thus draw less power since that is what wears them out. UnfortinLtely it noy works while cours are not saturated. And unfortunately this kind of subpixel layout with additional subpixels have a more pronounced screendoor. They also look wierd when colours are saturated since you then have near black wholes in your pixel matrix as only RGB subpixels are shining. That is also why the 1080p OLED looks quite terrible. 4K also looks less clear than a regular RGB layout but it is acceptable because of the high DPI.
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post #48 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 11:39 AM
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No, you still are. As OLED draws more power, they wear out. The white subpixel is basically assisting the RGB ones so that they dont have to be driven out and thus draw less power since that is what wears them out.
I think you're both wrong...or both right. As far as I can tell you're both saying essentially the same thing:

By letting the W subpixel handle the underlying greyscale luminance (to the extent that it can) of a pixel...it allows
1) Overall lower power consumption by having a "filterless" subpixel eminate the "white light portion" of color.
2) Increases subpixel (therefore overall panel) longevity because you're not driving any single sub-pixel as hard as you would otherwise.

Last edited by JoeyBagadonuts; 10-14-2015 at 11:45 AM.
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post #49 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 12:42 PM
 
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The downfall???? I'm $4900 in the hole
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post #50 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 12:54 PM
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When things were a bit different in the landscape I was buying about every two years to increase size. 34 (HD CRT) to 50 plasma to 55 LCD to 70 LCD.

I do not expect things to be $2k but there is no way I'm going to upgrade from a 70 to 65 and not to a 77 for $25K.

So the downside for me is I will need a 75 to 85 at $8k or under. If OLED cannot meet this within 1.5 years when I am ready then it will continue to be high-end LCD for me.

Size and a reasonable (but not impossible cost) are required. To me this is the only downfall. Don't care if only .0000001 % of population is buying greater than 55 as noted here many times. I am in the .0000001 camp . Greater than 70 in OLED and under $8K or bust for me. Don't care how incredible it is.

Rick

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post #51 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 02:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyBagadonuts View Post
I think you're both wrong...or both right. As far as I can tell you're both saying essentially the same thing:

By letting the W subpixel handle the underlying greyscale luminance (to the extent that it can) of a pixel...it allows
1) Overall lower power consumption by having a "filterless" subpixel eminate the "white light portion" of color.
2) Increases subpixel (therefore overall panel) longevity because you're not driving any single sub-pixel as hard as you would otherwise.
Except that he's missing the critical piece of information. You cannot boost the brightness of the non-saturated colors with W without skewing everything. Why? Because the overall extents of the output color space is rooted to the ground with the maximum of each primary.

That Red, Green, and Blue are the defining corners of the color space triangle. They cannot budge----they are anchored, period, end of story. As you wander toward the middle of the triangle you increasingly desaturate. You cannot use W to artificially create things brighter for desaturated colors and leave the saturated colors alone. It is not about making things brighter. It can't be without mucking things up. Imagine a pale (white-ish) green suddenly pumping out ever more brightness even more than you normally get with desaturation, but having the solid colors lag significantly behind. It just couldn't work.

I suppose if you're more comfortable with an RGB cube (we're at the display level after all), then it might look as if the white corner is pulled. If you're comfortable with the HSB model, the desaturation point would be similarly distended.

Given an inherent limitation in brightness of the RGB triad, it's then about lessening the power load for those. That triad is filtered, and is throwing away a lot of light. To overcome that, they likely are driving the OLED stack underneath it pretty hard. To overcome that power drain, they are employing white.

Look, I think I've exhausted this. All the coding I've done in color model conversion just cannot make heads or tails out of desaturated colors pumped even higher than normal. So folks, believe what you want. And be well.

And above all, keep in mind (again), that this is theory vs. theory.
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post #52 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 03:25 PM
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It was my understanding that LG's OLED TVs could have 1080 lines of motion resolution when using interpolation - it's just that a large part of AVS's videophiles hate anything to do with interpolation and/or high frame rates.
They max out at 650 lines in motion when using MCFI.
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post #53 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 05:07 PM
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As a former pioneer elite kuro owner, this is the tv you've been waiting years for. I purchased the 65 ef9500 and haven't looked back. The only downside is that every other display doesn't come close and after getting used to this, everything else just seems like you give up way too much. Price is relative, tech wise, there is no denying how good these tvs are. I've tried to find issues (not a 3D user), and even with some slight vignetting on my screen, its the best display by a long shot.
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post #54 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 05:27 PM
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That is also why the 1080p OLED looks quite terrible.
right! but only at the viewing distance of 1 foot. the BS from the non-owner OLED-haters is pretty immense here. what else, are you going to say next you had a screen burnin in your samsung OLED phone?
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post #55 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Except that he's missing the critical piece of information. You cannot boost the brightness of the non-saturated colors with W without skewing everything. Why? Because the overall extents of the output color space is rooted to the ground with the maximum of each primary.
I haven't seen anybody mention this, but the Color Signal White standard in the IDMS (a standard) was developed for basically this reason. The test is fairly simple. Measure a saturated value for each of the 3 primaries and add them up. That is now the white the display/system gets credit for in this test. They can get higher white in a different test that doesn't require saturated primaries at that white level.

There may be a good explanation around here somewhere about it (maybe in the standard). As someone mentioned, this is similar to business DLP projectors that add a white segment to the colorwheel, although in this case it doesn't have to be used to get a higher white level specification.

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That is also why the 1080p OLED looks quite terrible. .
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post #57 of 156 Old 10-14-2015, 08:46 PM
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That is also why the 1080p OLED looks quite terrible.
Says the guy that doesn't own one.


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post #58 of 156 Old 10-15-2015, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Except that he's missing the critical piece of information. You cannot boost the brightness of the non-saturated colors with W without skewing everything. Why? Because the overall extents of the output color space is rooted to the ground with the maximum of each primary.

That Red, Green, and Blue are the defining corners of the color space triangle. They cannot budge----they are anchored, period, end of story. As you wander toward the middle of the triangle you increasingly desaturate. You cannot use W to artificially create things brighter for desaturated colors and leave the saturated colors alone. It is not about making things brighter. It can't be without mucking things up. Imagine a pale (white-ish) green suddenly pumping out ever more brightness even more than you normally get with desaturation, but having the solid colors lag significantly behind. It just couldn't work.

I suppose if you're more comfortable with an RGB cube (we're at the display level after all), then it might look as if the white corner is pulled. If you're comfortable with the HSB model, the desaturation point would be similarly distended.

Given an inherent limitation in brightness of the RGB triad, it's then about lessening the power load for those. That triad is filtered, and is throwing away a lot of light. To overcome that, they likely are driving the OLED stack underneath it pretty hard. To overcome that power drain, they are employing white.

Look, I think I've exhausted this. All the coding I've done in color model conversion just cannot make heads or tails out of desaturated colors pumped even higher than normal. So folks, believe what you want. And be well.

And above all, keep in mind (again), that this is theory vs. theory.
Well, in my first post I already mentioned that using white pixels to increase brightness would result in desaturated colours. In fact that was the reason I entered this thread.

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Originally Posted by friendly_jacek View Post
right! but only at the viewing distance of 1 foot. the BS from the non-owner OLED-haters is pretty immense here. what else, are you going to say next you had a screen burnin in your samsung OLED phone?
Give the sight of a mole - yes. I stood 3m in front of a 55" 1080p OLED and it lookek horroble because of that subpixel layout. It has nothing to do with "haters" and stuff so keep your silly fanboy talk to yourself.

Last edited by steak2; 10-15-2015 at 01:08 AM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steak2 View Post
Well, in my first post I already mentioned that using white pixels to increase brightness would result in desaturated colours. In fact that was the reason I entered this thread.



Give the sight of a mole - yes. I stood 3m in front of a 55" 1080p OLED and it lookek horroble because of that subpixel layout. It has nothing to do with "haters" and stuff so keep your silly fanboy talk to yourself.


So given that you were 9+ feet away, you could see that it was the sub-pixel layout and not the level of sharpness that was the problem?

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Yes. And it is not am matter of sharpness. When there is an RGBW for every pixel the display can resolve all the detail needed for 1080p. It is a matter of the pixel structure and more pronounced screen door effect. It simply does not look that clean on solid surfaces and aliasing effects* are more pronounced.
That was basically the reason why I skipped the 1080p OLEDs an waited for 4K models. The higher the pixel density, the less pronounced are the adverse effects.

And for the record, if you don't see the difference in real content concerning 1080p RGBW, you als won't need a 4K display as your sight is not good enough to spot either difference. However, there are people that are able to do so. It is not about spotting each subpixel. It is about seeing the side effects like screen door and aliasing. I also had this problem with the sharp TVs with additional yellow pixels. You always get problems when having that kind of layouts.






* The subpixel layout has to be considered by the scaler and post processing. While all material we see is mastered and processed with an RGB layout in mind, other layout will always have the tendency to look worse.
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