What's the downfall of the LG OLED's? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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What's the downfall of the LG OLED's?

The past couple of weeks I have been looking at the LG 4K OLED TV's (curved screen)...........they are absolutely amazing
I have a Samsung JU7100 and that picture is very good, but the OLED's are just eye catching. The night scenes that loop over and over
are just beautiful.


I have never been an LG fan, but these TV's have really caught my eye. What are the "flaws" with the OLED's? Is it something that an
ordinary person, like myself would notice?
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post #2 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 11:37 AM
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From what I have read: price, uniformity problems (sometimes severe - vigneting, vertical bars on very dark solid images sometimes visible in dark scenes in movies, yellow or pink casts on some parts of the screen), input lag (55ms) which can be a problem in games (not a problem in movies), some passie 3d problems (lines visible if you sit at a wrong distance or angle), crush near black (posibbly solvable with some tweaking in options.

Some of those problems are present on LCDs too but people not notice them, so maybe you won't too - just make sure you can return the TV if you discover it's not for you or you got particularily bad one.

Because they are still worth it - extreme, perfect black level, contrast unachievable on LCDs, 3d without any blinking or loss of resolution (if you go for the 4k models), perfect reaction time (so theoretically no smudging - although our brains add it anyway as my OLED phone proves).
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post #3 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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holy cow........seems like more is wrong with the OLED than with LED


Most of those things I have not idea what they are......vigneting
Are these problems due to the newness of the technology?

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post #4 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 12:40 PM
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My personal take is that I have no trust for any panel technology that isn't based on just R, G, and B subpixels. That's what's in the video data. Most manufacturers have greater or lesser problems getting even that right. Throw in another subpixel of another color (yes, even white) and I simply don't believe they can get accurate reproduction right. Maybe the addition of 3D LUT with enough points can correct that, but I'd like such an expensive technology to be moderately accurate without me having to throw more money at it....
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post #5 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bnewt View Post

holy cow........seems like more is wrong with the OLED than with LED


Most of those things I have not idea what they are......vigneting
Are these problems due to the newness of the technology?
Not a chance, LCD has major flaws due to the technology, Oled is not perfect but it's the closest you will get to a perfect set in my opinion. Most issues some people talk about are not even seen in real content and if it is, it's so minor that if you didn't read these forums you would never know they were there. Also some issues are related to curve or flat not all on all of them.

Unfortunately some people are more sensitive to certain issues and there are some panels that are defective. Nothing new as all tv manufacturers have them. At the end of the day even with some flaws that you may or may not notice it's the best picture you will see.

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post #6 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 01:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post
My personal take is that I have no trust for any panel technology that isn't based on just R, G, and B subpixels. That's what's in the video data. Most manufacturers have greater or lesser problems getting even that right. Throw in another subpixel of another color (yes, even white) and I simply don't believe they can get accurate reproduction right. Maybe the addition of 3D LUT with enough points can correct that, but I'd like such an expensive technology to be moderately accurate without me having to throw more money at it....
I prefer RGB as well, but not for those reasons. You have to remember that having RGB in the source isn't the bottom line, since that RGB is itself an approximation of what the camera sensor grabbed. Camera sensors (CMOS or CCD arrays) are very weird beasts and are far from simple triads that map 1:1 with image data. Nowhere close.

IMO RGB is preferable for reasons that I believe Chronoptimist was the first to raise years ago: the subpixel density is higher and opening up a 4th subpixel makes both subpixel rendering harder (if not impossible) as well as increases the likelihood of SDE.
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post #7 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 02:07 PM
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I'd like to give more clarity regarding the issues Magnesus pointed out:

price - not inherent to OLED, just due to newness of the tech

uniformity - thought to simply be due to yields which, again, is simply due to tech newness; therefore it's extremely variable from one panel to the next

input lag - not caused by OLED at all and is purely due to the display electronics and post-processing algorithms used; in fact OLED has the fastest pixel response times seen since CRTs and therefore, if LG would do "game mode" justice (PCs and game consoles output lossless content, so what kind of crazy post-processing do you need to do for that?), could have the fastest total display lag of any non-CRT display.

passive 3d - let's be honest, how many people actually use 3D? Even then, it could be argued that you just need more vertical resolution and that 2160p isn't enough when passive 3D cuts that in half to 1080p.

crush near black - there was one review linked on AVS for the 9600 where a specific non-traditional way of calibrating pretty much eliminated this; I think there are some theories that it may be at least partially related to the "black flames" uniformity issues and therefore could also be somewhat a yields problem
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post #8 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
I prefer RGB as well, but not for those reasons. You have to remember that having RGB in the source isn't the bottom line, since that RGB is itself an approximation of what the camera sensor grabbed. Camera sensors (CMOS or CCD arrays) are very weird beasts and are far from simple triads that map 1:1 with image data. Nowhere close.
The reason it's RGB isn't because of some inherent property of light. Red, green, and blue are the "primary" colors because they correspond to the three color receptors in the human eye. RGB is a simulation designed to fake out the human visual system. When your eye sees yellow light, both your green and red cones are stimulated to a certain extent. RGB simulates that level of stimulation using green and red subpixels and your eye interprets that as yellow. It's not yellow light; it's just an incredible simulation

So the camera, imperfect as it might be, receives light in all the visible wavelengths and uses filters to approximate how much those frequencies are going to stimulate the red, green, and blue cones in the eye. That's what is recorded. Then using math which is also based on how the human eye responds to those colors RGB is translated to YCbCr. It's that YCbCr which is recorded on DVDs and transmitted over mp4s, etc.

When you throw in a subpixel of another color, or even of no color, you have to compute how to use that new subpixel by reducing the intensity of the RGB subpixels which was indicated by the video data and increasing the intensity of the new subpixel. I can't imagine any manufacturer getting that correct over the entire gamut especially if lag is to be considered an issue. So in my mind additional subpixels equals inaccurate color.

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post #9 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 03:54 PM
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Nothing, depending on how 'retentive' you are. Go experience it in person, judge for yourself. Absolutely gorgeous tech, most professional reviews agree.

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post #10 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnesus View Post
From what I have read: price, uniformity problems (sometimes severe - vigneting, vertical bars on very dark solid images sometimes visible in dark scenes in movies, yellow or pink casts on some parts of the screen), input lag (55ms) which can be a problem in games (not a problem in movies), some passie 3d problems (lines visible if you sit at a wrong distance or angle), crush near black (posibbly solvable with some tweaking in options.
IMHO, those issues exist but are minor.
the major limitations is ABL, not a show stopper either.
the unknown issue is how gracefully the wOLEDs will age. none of that stopped me from pulling a trigger.
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post #11 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 04:02 PM
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The biggest flaw I "see" is that I will never go back to a Plasma or conventional LCD/LED TV.
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post #12 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 05:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post
The reason it's RGB isn't because of some inherent property of light. Red, green, and blue are the "primary" colors because they correspond to the three color receptors in the human eye. RGB is a simulation designed to fake out the human visual system. When your eye sees yellow light, both your green and red cones are stimulated to a certain extent. RGB simulates that level of stimulation using green and red subpixels and your eye interprets that as yellow. It's not yellow light; it's just an incredible simulation
Almost. It's yellow light by definition because you see it as yellow. There is no other definition other than "spectral yellow" which is a theoretically pure sine wave that is also yellow light, and also by definition because you see it as yellow. "Yellow" doesn't exist anywhere in the physical universe, nor does any color, outside of an apparatus (your neuro-optics) designed to detect it.

You're preaching to the wrong choir here.


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So the camera, imperfect as it might be, receives light in all the visible wavelengths and uses filters to approximate how much those frequencies are going to stimulate the red, green, and blue cones in the eye. That's what is recorded. Then using math which is also based on how the human eye responds to those colors RGB is translated to YCbCr. It's that YCbCr which is recorded on DVDs and transmitted over mp4s, etc.
Yes, but you're over thinking this. None of this YCbCr interim matters for this argument because we're talking about the display itself. That YCbCr translates 1:1 to an RGB, and that [s]RGB is what the display is sending out.


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Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post
When you throw in a subpixel of another color, or even of no color, you have to compute how to use that new subpixel by reducing the intensity of the RGB subpixels which was indicated by the video data and increasing the intensity of the new subpixel. I can't imagine any manufacturer getting that correct over the entire gamut especially if lag is to be considered an issue. So in my mind additional subpixels equals inaccurate color.
Here you are mostly right, but it really doesn't matter that much IMO because you still have calibration control. The "Gray Component" (in both the additive and subtractive color models) is an easy thing to compute (there is no lag increase here, like you mention). The theory is to remove what is in common among the 3 primaries, subtract that from each of the 3 (with bias if required) and then make a gray of that removed value. The problem then though (and you're right in that this is no easy problem to solve) is that the white is likely a dichromatic white (blue+yellow), which is only theoretically a clean substitute for the trichromatic gray removed from each primary.

The point *I* was making however is that there is nothing magical about that source you refer to. There is no special honor to be bestowed upon the RGB information in particular, because that RGB information was crocked together from the beginning, right at the initial sensor.

We tend to make the mistake of looking at the source data as if it were written by God; something to be honored at all costs. It's just not.
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post #13 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 06:43 PM
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My personal take is that I have no trust for any panel technology that isn't based on just R, G, and B subpixels. That's what's in the video data.
The video data is red blue and white (YCrCb). Converting it to RGB is trivial, so I'm not sure why WRGB would be much harder. Perhaps a harder problem is factoring in the OLED pixel response curves - each sub pixel might not respond in a linear way as the voltage to them is increased, so using a simple straight conversion formula might not be good enough. My guess is they measure the response curve of each sub pixel and then store that in a look up table internally, and then apply that on top of the YCrCb to WRGB conversion. Whether they use a small matrix or large LUT probably affects things too. I've got a horrible feeling they are using small matrix to save on processing overhead which results in some ranges of colours being "off". The calibration charts never reveal this, even the ones that measure the colorchecker skin tones and saturation 4 step pattern.
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As an lg oled owner, I fell the main flaw is that there isn't enough good tv to watch on this epic technology
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Wow, another trolling thread. It certainly isnt hard to read a few pages of threads of disappointed people that think they paid too much and deserved perfection. Do some research and stop clogging the forum with more useless threads for people who are trying to justify their recent regretful LCD purchase.

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Wow, another trolling thread. It certainly isnt hard to read a few pages of threads of disappointed people that think they paid too much and deserved perfection. Do some research and stop clogging the forum with more useless threads for people who are trying to justify their recent regretful LCD purchase.
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Most people dont get it and thats very fine with me. Its something from my youth as well as others. No regrets and thank you for the recognition.
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post #18 of 156 Old 10-12-2015, 09:13 PM
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Most people dont get it and thats very fine with me. Its something from my youth as well as others. No regrets and thank you for the recognition.
Ah, brings some good memories.
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post #20 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 06:19 AM
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I prefer RGB as well, but not for those reasons. You have to remember that having RGB in the source isn't the bottom line, since that RGB is itself an approximation of what the camera sensor grabbed. Camera sensors (CMOS or CCD arrays) are very weird beasts and are far from simple triads that map 1:1 with image data. Nowhere close.

IMO RGB is preferable for reasons that I believe Chronoptimist was the first to raise years ago: the subpixel density is higher and opening up a 4th subpixel makes both subpixel rendering harder (if not impossible) as well as increases the likelihood of SDE.
Additionalle a white subpixel doesn't increase the brightness of colours. It works like the insertion of a white element in colour-wheels of a DLP projector. So you only get a brighter picture at the cost of whashed out colours an messed up gamma. The only thing better than having an RGB matrix is to have no matrix and one coloured pixel like it is with 3-Chip based projectors.
As long OLED comes with funky RGBW and whatever matrices it will be no option for me, regardless of how good the contrast will be.
Also the bette response time does not really help much, it is the sample and hold effect that matters. This can only be remedied by inserting black frames. While the response time of OLED helps to cicumvent ghosting when doing so, we have the problem of to little reserves for brightness. Inserting black frames reduces the actual brighness of the picture dramatically.

So there is still quite a lot of things to improve but first generation OLEDs where certainly more capable as first generation LCDs. So at the end problems with brightness should be solved (and alongside problems with burning in patterns), then OLED will be a pareto improvement over LCD.
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post #21 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 06:32 AM
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holy cow........seems like more is wrong with the OLED than with LED
Don't panic. My LED LCD TV has almost all of those issues too and it was the best in it's class when I bought it (it's Sony KDL-W900A) and is still a great TV (if only the black level was better).
It's just that there is no perfect technology and LG has some problems with making the OLEDs as perfect as they should be. OLED is still the best there is right now, just make sure you can return it and replace in case you are unlucky to have an issue that is too major to ignore.

I wouldn't worry about the white subpixel though - at 4k it shouldn't matter anyway, you won't be able to see subpixels, so no screen effect. My 1080p LCD also has white subpixels and it looks great even up close.

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post #22 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 06:35 AM
 
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Additionalle a white subpixel doesn't increase the brightness of colours. It works like the insertion of a white element in colour-wheels of a DLP projector. So you only get a brighter picture at the cost of whashed out colours an messed up gamma.
Washed out? No, there's nothing inherent about moving the gray component from a triad to its own emitter that results in washed out colors. The issue as presented was questioning whether or not it would be difficult for the CMS to get it just right, not that there's anything inherently lowering the saturation.
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post #23 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 07:36 AM
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And why should you do that? You add white subpixels/elements to gain brightness.
If you correct the influence on colour luminance and gamma you loose the brightness that you would gain from the white subpixel. The limit is still the max. brigthness of the individual colours, you can only gain brightness to the extent of which the colours are not fully saturated. So you can either live with a higher brightness in case of non saturated colours (gamma all over the place), always mix the white pixel to the coloured ones (decreased colour space) or you just mix the white pixel to the extent the colour is not fully saturated (save some energy, but no brigtness gains and still messed subpixel matrix).

In short:

RGBW matrices are not really helpfull. That is why this kind of techniques are used in a) budget 4K TVs b) DLP projectors made for presentations and thus max brightness.
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I got mine on Friday, 55EG9100. It is awesome. Stop worrying and just pull the trigger. You will NOT be disappointed.
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post #25 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 08:14 AM
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I believe the idea with the white sub-pixel is to reduce power and increase lifespan. The white sub-pixel has no filter so is the most efficient way to produce the white component.


Separate topic: SDE. I'm one of those people that notice the pixel structure of the first LG OLEDs that came out. This was from a typical viewing distance (about 8'). I had an eye exam about a month ago and found out with my glasses on I have 20/15 vision, so I guess that explains why. Good news is the 4k models out now look great to me.

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post #26 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 09:52 AM
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I've had my OLED 18 months now and still simply amazed with it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post
My personal take is that I have no trust for any panel technology that isn't based on just R, G, and B subpixels. That's what's in the video data. Most manufacturers have greater or lesser problems getting even that right. Throw in another subpixel of another color (yes, even white) and I simply don't believe they can get accurate reproduction right. Maybe the addition of 3D LUT with enough points can correct that, but I'd like such an expensive technology to be moderately accurate without me having to throw more money at it....
Yet in real life these sets are perfectly accurate when calibrated. So what's the problem?
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post #28 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 10:29 AM
 
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And why should you do that? You add white subpixels/elements to gain brightness.
If you correct the influence on colour luminance and gamma you loose the brightness that you would gain from the white subpixel. The limit is still the max. brigthness of the individual colours, you can only gain brightness to the extent of which the colours are not fully saturated. So you can either live with a higher brightness in case of non saturated colours (gamma all over the place), always mix the white pixel to the coloured ones (decreased colour space) or you just mix the white pixel to the extent the colour is not fully saturated (save some energy, but no brigtness gains and still messed subpixel matrix).

In short:

RGBW matrices are not really helpfull. That is why this kind of techniques are used in a) budget 4K TVs b) DLP projectors made for presentations and thus max brightness.
In short, you're operating on a brightness premise.

The only cogent theory I've seen floated from the beginning as to the reason for the white sub wasn't brightness. It was LG stacked OLED power consumption.

And this makes sense. In a filtered setup, you lose a great deal of light due to the filter. A filter's job is to throw light away. The white sub allows the commonality (the gray component) to be unencumbered.

And BTW, what "budget" 4K TVs do you see using RGBW?

Last edited by tgm1024; 10-13-2015 at 10:33 AM.
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post #29 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 10:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sooke View Post
I believe the idea with the white sub-pixel is to reduce power and increase lifespan. The white sub-pixel has no filter so is the most efficient way to produce the white component.
Yes, that's what's what we theorized a long time ago. When these Kodak stack based OLED's were all just "talk".


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Originally Posted by sooke View Post
Separate topic: SDE. I'm one of those people that notice the pixel structure of the first LG OLEDs that came out. This was from a typical viewing distance (about 8'). I had an eye exam about a month ago and found out with my glasses on I have 20/15 vision, so I guess that explains why. Good news is the 4k models out now look great to me.
I have 20/20+20/25 and I can see the SDE as clear as day on the 9300 (2K). The need for a 4th sub puts certain colors (such as a high saturation red) into a wide on/off/off/off pattern that should otherwise just be on/off/off.

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post #30 of 156 Old 10-13-2015, 10:44 AM
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The only cogent theory I've seen floated from the beginning as to the reason for the white sub wasn't brightness. It was LG stacked OLED power consumption.
Isn't it basically both? The white component helps to efficiently get the desired brightness? (Less overall power consumption to get the same brightness?)

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And BTW, what "budget" 4K TVs do you see using RGBW?
Only one I know of (in the U.S. at least): LG's UF6800. It's an RGBW LCD.

IIRC, LG's use of RGBW is basically born from manufacturing issues. It has proven (to date) too difficult to manufacture pure RGB OLED (non filtered...pure emitting R, G, B, oled subpixels) with TV size screens. It is the use of stacked RGB OLEDs (where EVERY sub pixel is the same exact configuration AFAIK, except for the filter) is what has allowed these things to be manufactured at all. However, without the unfiltered white subpixel, only having three filtered subpixels for RGB only would likely not be sufficient either from brightness / efficiency standpoint, or a longevity standpoint (or both).

Last edited by JoeyBagadonuts; 10-13-2015 at 10:49 AM.
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