LG EF9500 Semi-Idle based dimming? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 59 Old 11-04-2015, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Unhappy LG EF9500 Semi-Idle based dimming?

[SOLVED -- see the post at the bottom]

I'm a new owner of an LG 65EF9500. The display is connected to my desktop as the primary (and only) display. I do normal stuff on there (work, email, browse, etc). I've noticed a very disturbing effect having to do with some sort of idle based auto-dimming of the display over a very short period of time (4 minutes).

I can be sitting there reading emails and it gradually goes dark, even though I'm clicking around. It did it while I was typing this.

As soon as there is significant activity, like switching to a different window, it goes bright again. The content of the other window seems to be irrelevant. I've switched to windows that are overall brighter or darker, but the effect is the same: the display brightness goes up.

I've looked at most of the posts in the owner's thread and the specific one titled "How to turn off auto-dimming on LG EF9500??" and tried the settings (contrast 67, oled light 40), but is still happens.

This doesn't look like APL (average picture level)/ABL (auto-brightness limiter) to me; I can see the effect of APL/ABL and it doesn't really bother me. From the experiments I've run (which you can try for yourself), I'm guessing that the display looks at the total light output over time and if the total light output is not changing for about 3-4 minutes, even if the image is changing, it starts to dim the display.

It's not from the PC because there is definitely mouse/keyboard activity there and the same PC connected to an LCD never does this.

This is driving me mad, so I've devised a simple reproducible experiment to show the effect. Can someone verify so I know I'm not crazy? Any suggestions how to fix this? Any ideas why this was programmed in?

-----------------------
Here are my settings:

WebOS version: 04.20.08 -- had to upgrade via USB from 04.20.07, as it wouldn't find it automatically. Also happens with 04.20.07

Input assignment on HDMI 1: PC (seleted via the wizard, so it has a the PC icon, not just a name)
Picture mode: Game (User)
Energy Saving: off
OLED Light: 40 (I prefer 50, but it happens at 40)
Contrast: 67
Sharpness: 0
Brightness: 50
Color: 65
Tint: 0
Color Temp: C30

Advanced controls: everything off. Gamma High1
Picture controls: everything off. Black high. Also happens on Black low.

3D Settings off
Dual Play off
HDMI ULTRA HD Deep Color: on (for HDMI 1)

General -> Power Saving Mode : off

-----------------------------
Experiment one: semi-idle dimming

Setup: start with a blank desktop and create two simple windows (e.g. notepad) about 1/4 of the width/height of the screen. See the attached screenshot. Let's call the left window "WindowOne" and the right one "WindowTwo".

Control: Minimize and restore WindowTwo several times to convince yourself that this particular action does not create a sudden large shift in brightness of the entire display.

Run: start the run with WindowOne on the desktop and WindowTwo minimized to the taskbar. For the next 4 minutes, move WindowOne to somewhere else on the screen every 10 seconds. I typically just move the window down and then up by 1/2 a screen. (Make sure you stay away from the edges of the screen that trigger the snap behavior in Windows 7). During these 4 minutes, the display starts to get dimmer. At the end of the run, restore WindowTwo. This will cause the display to suddenly "wake up" and become as bright as it was 4 minutes ago.

-----------------------------
Expermient two: specific activity that prevents the dimming.

Setup: exactly as Experiment one.
Control: exactly as Experiment one.

Run: start the run with WindowOne on the desktop and WindowTwo minimized to the taskbar. For the next 4 minutes, alternately, minimize or restore WindowOne every 10 seconds. At the end of the run, restore both windows. There will be no drastic shift in total brightness.
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Last edited by bigpc; 11-07-2015 at 10:29 AM.
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post #2 of 59 Old 11-04-2015, 05:42 PM
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This is normal behavior for this display.....which creates big problems for those wanting to run a LUTs calibration on them.

Seems that someone devised a desktop with varying brightness (probably a slide show for the desktop) and use windows that aren't full screen for their work. The display sees the varying picture level therefore doesn't dim it.
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post #3 of 59 Old 11-04-2015, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Is that LG's official position? Is my only option to return the display?
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post #4 of 59 Old 11-04-2015, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpc View Post
Is that LG's official position? Is my only option to return the display?
Don't know about position but it is how they work.

Display returns are subject to the policies of the retailer/etailer.
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post #5 of 59 Old 11-04-2015, 06:40 PM
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Two weeks in with 55 inch its fantastic . No yellow streaks. 508 build. My question is this...does this thing have PIP? Simple I know, but kind of miss it from the Sammy when searching Comcast. Actually, I guess it's not so much pip as just the little tv screen in lower right I miss.
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post #6 of 59 Old 11-04-2015, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonstitch View Post
Two weeks in with 55 inch its fantastic . No yellow streaks. 508 build. My question is this...does this thing have PIP? Simple I know, but kind of miss it from the Sammy when searching Comcast. Actually, I guess it's not so much pip as just the little tv screen in lower right I miss.
Wrong thread but doesn't your comcast remote have a PIP function?
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post #7 of 59 Old 11-05-2015, 05:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Wrong thread but doesn't your comcast remote have a PIP function?
PIP? I feel like I'm in the 80's again. Better wear a mullet again (OYE----author runs for cover)....


To the OP, this is all very interesting. I wasn't aware that these models had a protection mechanism against static imaging. You can experiment by putting a clock up on the desktop and see if that's enough of a change to prevent the mechanism from engaging (?)

Let us know what you find.
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post #8 of 59 Old 11-05-2015, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't think this is protection against static imaging. In experiment one, I'm moving a window across the screen every 10 seconds, and yet it still dims. I've done that experiment with a window as large as 1/2 the screen size. This even happens when I'm reading/scrolling through a semi-consistent web page, like this forum.
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post #9 of 59 Old 11-05-2015, 06:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpc View Post
I don't think this is protection against static imaging. In experiment one, I'm moving a window across the screen every 10 seconds, and yet it still dims. I've done that experiment with a window as large as 1/2 the screen size. This even happens when I'm reading/scrolling through a semi-consistent web page, like this forum.
Ah ok, sorry. I missed that in your post.
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post #10 of 59 Old 11-05-2015, 01:56 PM
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While fears of image retention are largely overblown for 99% of people, I would seriously advise not using an OLED display for a computer, unless you'll be in full-screen apps frequently.
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post #11 of 59 Old 11-05-2015, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpc View Post
I don't think this is protection against static imaging. In experiment one, I'm moving a window across the screen every 10 seconds, and yet it still dims. I've done that experiment with a window as large as 1/2 the screen size. This even happens when I'm reading/scrolling through a semi-consistent web page, like this forum.
I'm guessing that the display dims when there's a substantial amount of white/light colour being displayed - In the interest of increasing panel longevity. Try changing your windows theme to light text on dark/black background. The better web browsers these days have a built in "night mode" or a downloadable extension which will achieve the same effect for web pages.
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post #12 of 59 Old 11-05-2015, 04:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosCloud View Post
I'm guessing that the display dims when there's a substantial amount of white/light colour being displayed - In the interest of increasing panel longevity. Try changing your windows theme to light text on dark/black background. The better web browsers these days have a built in "night mode" or a downloadable extension which will achieve the same effect for web pages.
Yeah, but what he's seeing seems distinct from the normal ABL behavior, no?
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post #13 of 59 Old 11-05-2015, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Yeah, but what he's seeing seems distinct from the normal ABL behavior, no?
Agreed. ABL, to my knowledge, is a hard limit to how much power the panel can draw, which manifests instantaneously as on-screen content changes. This, on the other hand, seems like a long-term wear reduction strategy by LG. As it goes, the bulb which shines half as bright lasts twice as long.
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post #14 of 59 Old 11-05-2015, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't believe this can be attributed to a "long-term wear reduction strategy". Experiment Two maintains a high level output through the entire 4 minutes, with only a small difference in total light output as compared to experiment one. I can also watch reasonably light content, e.g. LG's 4K arctic demo without any dimming.
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post #15 of 59 Old 11-06-2015, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Angry Also happens with TV content!

This really takes the cake. I was watching the Bill Maher monologue and he was talking and moving around, and it dimmed.

I talked to LG service and they're sending someone out next week.

Last edited by bigpc; 11-07-2015 at 10:18 AM.
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post #16 of 59 Old 11-06-2015, 10:56 PM
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Pioneer's plasmas did the same thing. I don't think it even took four minutes.
I remember having to constantly switch test patterns when calibrating those displays, as they would dim noticeably in a very short period of time.

It's almost certainly something along the lines of "if X amount of the image is unchanged, dim the screen" as some form of burn-in protection.

These types of screens really aren't designed to display static images. I would recommend an LCD.
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post #17 of 59 Old 11-07-2015, 04:37 AM
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There is a dimming feature that is turned On in the service menu of my EG9100. The guts are similar between the tvs, so im thinking it is also turned On in the EF9500.
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post #18 of 59 Old 11-07-2015, 05:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
It's almost certainly something along the lines of "if X amount of the image is unchanged, dim the screen" as some form of burn-in protection.
The LG algorithm is far more sophisticated. In experiment one outlined in OP, I can change the color of 90% of the pixels on screen (using a notepad 1/2 the screen size) every 10 seconds, and it still dims.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
Pioneer's plasmas did the same thing. I don't think it even took four minutes.
I remember having to constantly switch test patterns when calibrating those displays, as they would dim noticeably in a very short period of time.
(SMH) There are times when I wonder about how very much we'll cringe in 20 years looking back at this broken paleolithic era.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpc View Post
The LG algorithm is far more sophisticated. In experiment one outlined in OP, I can change the color of 90% of the pixels on screen (using a notepad 1/2 the screen size) every 10 seconds, and it still dims.
Well whether that's intended behavior or not, it's unacceptable.

So addressing it as unacceptable (as it seems you are doing) is absolutely the correct approach.
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post #20 of 59 Old 11-07-2015, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpc View Post
The LG algorithm is far more sophisticated. In experiment one outlined in OP, I can change the color of 90% of the pixels on screen (using a notepad 1/2 the screen size) every 10 seconds, and it still dims.
So maybe the algorithm is "if 10% of the screen remains unchanged, dim the screen".
I don't think the specifics really matter, my point is that this is not a new thing for emissive displays and it is surely intended behavior rather than a fault.

Now this is clearly unacceptable for your intended use, but if this is your intended use for the display, you will have to replace it with an LCD.
Emissive displays do not make good computer monitors - and I generally wouldn't recommend them for gaming either, since games often display a lot of high brightness static content for long periods of time as well.
The last time an emissive display was suitable for such a thing was CRT.
Now hopefully things will progress and OLED or a similar technology will become suitable for this sort of thing, but right now you need to stick with LCD.
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post #21 of 59 Old 11-07-2015, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
So maybe the algorithm is "if 10% of the screen remains unchanged, dim the screen".
In experiment two, I change less than 10% of the pixels on screen, but it doesn't dim. It is a very sophisticated algorithm. It's looking for a specific set of criteria, under which it reduces the power consumption of the TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
I don't think the specifics really matter, my point is that this is not a new thing for emissive displays and it is surely intended behavior rather than a fault.
My CRT's never did that. I think it's important for us to be clear with the manufacturers that this sort of thing is unacceptable. I can't even watch a simple monologue without getting bright flashes when the speaker moves a little after staying still.
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Talking Solved!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianabol5mg View Post
There is a dimming feature that is turned On in the service menu


Thanks a lot Dianabol5mg. I was able to turn this "feature" off. Here is how:

Warning: Do the following at your own risk.
  • Send the TV the IN-Start service code. You can find the details here: http://openlgtv.org.ru/wiki/index.ph..._menus_/_modes
  • Use the password 0413
  • Under System 1, there is a "Dimming" feature that's set to "on". Leave that alone!
  • Under OLED, there is a cryptically named "TPC Enable" option. Set that to 0 (zero).
  • Press Exit on the remote.
That turns off this bug. There is also an interval under the same menu, which I assume controls the timing. I wasn't interested in that, so I didn't play with it.


This should also help with calibrating this TV.
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post #23 of 59 Old 11-07-2015, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpc View Post
Thanks a lot Dianabol5mg. I was able to turn this "feature" off. Here is how:

Warning: Do the following at your own risk.
  • Send the TV the IN-Start service code. You can find the details here: http://openlgtv.org.ru/wiki/index.ph..._menus_/_modes
  • Use the password 0413
  • Under System 1, there is a "Dimming" feature that's set to "on". Leave that alone!
  • Under OLED, there is a cryptically named "TPC Enable" option. Set that to 0 (zero).
  • Press Exit on the remote.
That turns off this bug. There is also an interval under the same menu, which I assume controls the timing. I wasn't interested in that, so I didn't play with it.


This should also help with calibrating this TV.
EF remote. Device key? MAGIC key? Edit: never mind. I was looking at the Radio Shack remote. Can the service menu be accessed with the LG remote?

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Last edited by buzzard767; 11-07-2015 at 02:29 PM.
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post #24 of 59 Old 11-07-2015, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks a lot Dianabol5mg. I was able to turn this "feature" off.
You are quite welcome.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpc View Post
Thanks a lot Dianabol5mg. I was able to turn this "feature" off. Here is how:
This should also help with calibrating this TV.
With what remote?

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post #26 of 59 Old 11-07-2015, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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With what remote?
This can't be done with the remote that comes with the unit. You must have some sort of programmable remote, or computer controlled IR device, or the LG service remote. Google for "IR toy" if you want a computer controlled one. I was so desperate that I used the IR leds from a very old remote to create one of these:
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-...r-iPhone-iPod/
and used my computer to play the .wav file from the site in the solution post.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpc View Post
My CRT's never did that. I think it's important for us to be clear with the manufacturers that this sort of thing is unacceptable. I can't even watch a simple monologue without getting bright flashes when the speaker moves a little after staying still.
Yes, I said that no emissive display since CRT was suitable for displaying lots of static content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpc View Post
That turns off this bug. There is also an interval under the same menu, which I assume controls the timing. I wasn't interested in that, so I didn't play with it.
Well it's very clearly an intended feature of the television and not a bug.
I would be very cautious of doing this, unless you don't care if you end up with permanent image retention. (burn-in)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
Yes, I said that no emissive display since CRT was suitable for displaying lots of static content.

Well it's very clearly an intended feature of the television and not a bug.
I would be very cautious of doing this, unless you don't care if you end up with permanent image retention. (burn-in)
Yes, that's a possibility, but unless you have a stilled image or calibration pattern (and leave it on the screen) you'll not have a problem. ASBL begins after a 70 second delay. I've tested it.

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post #29 of 59 Old 11-07-2015, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
you end up with permanent image retention
I'm not sure how many times I need to say this: this behavior has nothing to do with saving the pixels. The algorithm doesn't trigger with 90% of the pixels staying the same color essentially forever. Designing an algorithm for saving the pixels would be reasonably trivial: if x% of pixels haven't changed in a while (much longer than 3-4 minutes, maybe 30 minutes), dim.

Instead, there is a much more sophisticated algorithm that doesn't do that.

So what is this behavior? It's a power saving "feature". It detects when the TV is being measured for energy rating and reduces the total power consumption. Like LG refrigerators that had this "feature" a few years ago (http://www.treehugger.com/clean-tech...ar-labels.html) and like Samsung TV's, which are plain LCD, and have this "feature" (http://www.theguardian.com/environme...n-in-real-life).

Turning this off simply means I'll spend more than the $21 that came on the yellow sticker on the TV.
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post #30 of 59 Old 11-07-2015, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
With what remote?
Here you go buzzard, this one works best.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-LG-Servi...cAAOxyjFpSQOW9
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