2016 LG OLEDs - G6, E6, C6, and B6 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by MrJames View Post
I definitely want 3D and I'm willing to get the curved model. My concern is if the new curved model have issues with the dimples and funhouse mirror reflections like we saw on some previous curved models. Stepping up to the E6 would elminate this concern.
I think everyone here is going to tell you to go with the E6. Curved does distort the picture slightly, makes it harder to get good uniformity, and since there's only 1 curved model this year it means the panels will likely be on a separate assembly line than the other 3 TVs. Meaning any issues may take longer to address and/or be exclusive to the C6.

It's crazy that such expensive TVs have sound bars. Who pays $7,000-$10,000 for a TV and doesn't have an existing audio setup? Can we just remove the sound bar, and get the glass stand look?

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post #62 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 06:40 AM
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whats the life expectancy of these oleds tv ?
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post #63 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 06:45 AM
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The b and c are now up on their US site. They weren't yesterday.. http://www.lg.com/us/oled-tvs
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post #64 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
The G6 and E6 both have the HK sound bar and the floating 'single pane of glass' design, but on the G6 all ports are on the sound bar and which can fold behind the TV, on the E6 they're on the back of the TV and the sound bar is a fixed stand for the TV.

The B6 and C6 appear to get the new picture enhancements and DV support but look like they're designed like the EG and EF in terms of cabinet.
Does anyone have a schematic or a pic of the sound bar folded behind the G6 for a wall mounted application?
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post #65 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 07:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by HT-Eman View Post
whats the life expectancy of these oleds tv ?
The EF only had about 3mos according to some owners
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post #66 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 07:29 AM
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post #67 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by HT-Eman View Post
whats the life expectancy of these oleds tv ?
Long enough not to matter, you'll upgrade well before it dies.
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post #68 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 07:51 AM
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Do the new 2016 sets do Dolby Vision over the HDMI 2.0a inputs?

From the G6 page on the LG website.

"Dolby Vision

Transform your OLED TV experience with dramatic imaging that brings entertainment to life before your eyes. Enjoy a refined, lifelike picture when you watch UHD Dolby Vision™ mastered content on 2016 OLED 4K TVs via streaming services such as Netflix® and VUDU."
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post #69 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 07:52 AM
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I just noticed on the website there is a 7 grand price for the 65 inch E series. I didn't think price was mentioned before on the thread. So a grand above this years pieces. So means the B series is 6 like this years pieces. I just can't see the G series being 8 grand for a thinner TV. Even 7 grand for a tv now with how quick things are changing is nuts. there are just so many new formats and changes coming down the pipe compared to when the switch from SD to HD happened with 180i/p.

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post #70 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
It will be some time before they hit the streets. OLED's are so popular LG is not meeting supply demands.
.
Some time being mid March to mid May, agreed. June at the latest for the 77G6.
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post #71 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by PRO-630HD View Post
Do the new 2016 sets do Dolby Vision over the HDMI 2.0a inputs?

From the G6 page on the LG website.

"Dolby Vision

Transform your OLED TV experience with dramatic imaging that brings entertainment to life before your eyes. Enjoy a refined, lifelike picture when you watch UHD Dolby Vision™ mastered content on 2016 OLED 4K TVs via streaming services such as Netflix® and VUDU."
2.0a can do both DV and HDR.

http://hdguru.com/dolby-vision-tries...t-bar-for-hdr/
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post #72 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post
I just noticed on the website there is a 7 grand price for the 65 inch E series.
Wasn't the E-series supposed to be "economy"? That certainly makes the $4,999 asking price of the EF9600 more palatable... but I will not be fooled!
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post #73 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post
Wasn't the E-series supposed to be "economy"? That certainly makes the $4,999 asking price of the EF9600 more palatable... but I will not be fooled!
No E is their soundbar attached, semi-flagship product (G being highest). The B is the economy line.
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post #74 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post
Well now just waiting for a Dolby Vision bluray player and UHD discs with Dolby Vision. I am very surprised that the Warner titles haven't included Dolby Vision in the spec since all of their upcoming releases have already been done in Dolby Vision. The titles would easily play on any UHD Premium TV since the standard HDR10 signal has to be included anyway.
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post #75 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 08:29 AM
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Some time being mid March to mid May, agreed. June at the latest for the 77G6.
I have heard that before, in fact every year I hear this. I bet no larger sizes hit before summer.
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post #76 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 08:32 AM
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Aw man. Why did they have to cut 3D from the B model? I would have been all over that. I really want to be able to experience 3D after reading how much people like it.

Now I have to pick between going curved with 3d, or going flat without it. Boo!
All I can say is I hope the elimination of 3D from the 'Budget' 65" OLED removes significant production cost (and results in even lower pricing).

If the cost savings of cutting 3D is not significant, then I think it was a bone-headed move by LG. If/when 3D is well-and-truly dead, it is a non-issue, but the quality of the passive 3D on LGs 4K OLEDs is nothing short of breathtaking and a worthwhile conpetetive advantage as long as there are any 3D enthusiasts.

Why would LG want the remove one check box from their highest-volume offering and lose those videophiles for whole 3D is a requirement to Samsung?

Again, if is saves significant cost to eliminate 3D, it was a smart move, but if it was purely to reinforce the value of the E-Series in an attempt to up sell more Enthusiast-tier E-Series OLEDs (and increase marguns), it was a truly boneheaded move.

Once OLED is truly here to stay, these kind of marketing moves are inevitable (just look at cars ), but LG is not out of the woods yet...
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post #77 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by sippelmc View Post
No E is their soundbar attached, semi-flagship product (G being highest). The B is the economy line.
I see the E series notes HDR, but not Dolby Vision like the G series. Is that the other difference between the E & G series? This from looking at LG's website http://www.lg.com/us/oled-tvs.
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post #78 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by sippelmc View Post
No E is their soundbar attached, semi-flagship product (G being highest). The B is the economy line.
G = siGnature (or Greatest )

E = Enthusiast

B = Base (or Budget )
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post #79 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 08:35 AM
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I see the E series notes HDR, but not Dolby Vision like the G series. Is that the other difference between the E & G series? This from looking at LG's website http://www.lg.com/us/oled-tvs.
I believe LG has stated that all 2016 OLEDs include Dolby Vision (not sure if that includes the 9100 since that was a 2015 model...).
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post #80 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post
I just noticed on the website there is a 7 grand price for the 65 inch E series. I didn't think price was mentioned before on the thread. So a grand above this years pieces. So means the B series is 6 like this years pieces. I just can't see the G series being 8 grand for a thinner TV. Even 7 grand for a tv now with how quick things are changing is nuts. there are just so many new formats and changes coming down the pipe compared to when the switch from SD to HD happened with 180i/p.

jimi
E has MSRP of $7K

G is 'under $10K' and expectation is for an MSRP of $9999 (or at least $8999)

B should have an MSRP no higher than 65EF9500 ($6K) and will probably have an MSRP which is lower ($5K is my guess)

For an additional $1-2K, E offers 3D, 'ultra-thin', and improved sound over the B.

For an additional $2-3K beyond that, the G offers even better Harmon Karmon sound, the ability to wall-mount with the sound-bar, and may offer the possibility of 'One-Connect-Box-like' upgradability of electronics independantly of the OLED panel...

Both the E and the G are based on the new 1/10th-inch ultra-thin manufacturing, and this is almost certain to mean low-volume manufacturing, at least to start.

The B is just an upgraded version of the EF9500 design incorporating Dolby. Is ion and an improved OLED with wider color gamut (99% DCI-P3) and increased brightness (540 cd/m2) but they eliminated the 3D to further justify the price premium of the E-Series (which was a mistake, in my view, since the passive 3D on 4K OLED is a competetive advantage that I suspect adds little in the way of cost).
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post #81 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 08:51 AM
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I'd absolutely love an OLED that achieves 20ms input lag but I think the best you can really hope for is about 30-35ms, which puts it in line with quality IPS monitors (such as the LG 34UM95). Many people have no issues/don't notice input lag on those monitors, and the EG9600/EF9500 scores about 35-40ms input lag based on my testing and PC usage. I feel like some reviews that stated it is higher didn't properly disable all the features that cause it.

Sadly, we are still at point where you have to choose between quality and speed. If you are coming from a GSYNC/FreeSync/120/144hz/TN panel type display, then 30-35ms will indeed take a long time to get use too.
"Quality IPS monitors" are now ~3ms total latency - panel and processing. (source)
As I said previously, LG's displays - such as the 34UM95 you mentioned - seem to have considerably higher latency than most new displays. Though it scored ~24ms at TFT Central, so not quite as bad as the 30-35ms you mentioned.

35-40ms won't take me any time to get used to, because I won't buy a display with that much latency.
It doesn't matter how high the contrast is on an OLED panel, I'm not going to spend several thousand dollars to end up with almost double the latency that my current LCD has (20ms) when that is already higher than I would prefer.

If these OLEDs are limited to 60Hz and still lack Adaptive-Sync support, that makes minimum latency in a game ~68ms. 35ms for the display, and 33ms for the two frames of latency that V-Sync adds at 60 FPS.
Even just adding Adaptive-Sync support would greatly reduce the latency, since it eliminates the need for V-Sync.
The display's own latency would ideally be ≤16ms, since that gets us on par with a V-Synced 120Hz CRT.
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post #82 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by sippelmc View Post
The b and c are now up on their US site. They weren't yesterday.. http://www.lg.com/us/oled-tvs
It is a bit of a concern that only the G mentions Dolby Vision...

Also, no mention of 3D for any of the new TVs...
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post #83 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 08:58 AM
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Why is this unfair to consumers?
It forces those who want to have the 3D feature to either settle for a curved model, or pay for a higher priced model, which comes with an attached soundbar, which some people would have no need for.

Why provide a curved model with 3D, and no soundbar, but not a flat panel version of it, for those who do not want either curved displays or soundbars?!
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post #84 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 09:07 AM
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It forces those who want to have the 3D feature to either settle for a curved model, or pay for a higher priced model, which comes with an attached soundbar, which some people would have no need for.

Why provide a curved model with 3D, and no soundbar, but not a flat panel version of it, for those who do not want either curved displays or soundbars?!
This kind of thing happens all the time, but generally only when the product line is mature enough that you are certain the customer will be purchasing one of your products, and just trying to maximize profit by forcing the customer to 'buy up' to get the features that they want.

I would be highly, highly surprised if any customers are going to be willing to pay more for the E because it is only 1/10th of an inch thick rather than 1/4 of an inch thick, nor donI believe customers purchasing this class of TV will be attracted to pay more for the E because of the better sound (Soundbar), so the entire rationale for the decision to hold back 3D from the B must have been to upswell those OLED customers wanting 3D to the E-Series rather than the B-Series.

I think it was a bone-headed move. It gives Samsung a competetive advantage where otherwise they would have had a competetive disadvantage. Those customers not wanting to spend more than $X ($4-5K) for the best flat 65" TV with 3D will be going elsewhere.

It is to early for LG to be focusing on marketing strategy to maximise profit - they should be focused on gaining as much market share as they can while addressing fundamentals like near-black uniformity and bit-depth near black.

The war is not yet won.
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post #85 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 09:20 AM
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Sounds like a great move to me, I pay less in exchange for omitting a feature that I don't want or use.
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post #86 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 09:22 AM
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This kind of thing happens all the time, but generally only when the product line is mature enough that you are certain the customer will be purchasing one of your products, and just trying to maximize profit by forcing the customer to 'buy up' to get the features that they want.

I would be highly, highly surprised if any customers are going to be willing to pay more for the E because it is only 1/10th of an inch thick rather than 1/4 of an inch thick, nor donI believe customers purchasing this class of TV will be attracted to pay more for the E because of the better sound (Soundbar), so the entire rationale for the decision to hold back 3D from the B must have been to upswell those OLED customers wanting 3D to the E-Series rather than the B-Series.

I think it was a bone-headed move. It gives Samsung a competetive advantage where otherwise they would have had a competetive disadvantage. Those customers not wanting to spend more than $X ($4-5K) for the best flat 65" TV with 3D will be going elsewhere.

It is to early for LG to be focusing on marketing strategy to maximise profit - they should be focused on gaining as much market share as they can while addressing fundamentals like near-black uniformity and bit-depth near black.

The war is not yet won.
as someone mentioned already, both G6 and E6 use the same frame, difference is that cable connections on E6 are on back of TV while on G6 they are on the speaker take a look at the LG site and you will see the G6 and E6 look identical by picture http://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-OLED77G6P-oled-4k-tv http://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-OLED65E6P-oled-4k-tv

my only worry from the site is that Dolby Vision is only supported on the G6 series, with the 3 lesser models only showing HDR Pro
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post #87 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 09:27 AM
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I think everyone here is going to tell you to go with the E6. Curved does distort the picture slightly, makes it harder to get good uniformity, and since there's only 1 curved model this year it means the panels will likely be on a separate assembly line than the other 3 TVs. Meaning any issues may take longer to address and/or be exclusive to the C6.

It's crazy that such expensive TVs have sound bars. Who pays $7,000-$10,000 for a TV and doesn't have an existing audio setup? Can we just remove the sound bar, and get the glass stand look?
That is a major selling point for me,I can't have sound system because my neighbors complaining,and this is the perfect way to get a little better sound.I wonder if there is any difference between the G and E series regarding the sound bar ?
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post #88 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post
I think everyone here is going to tell you to go with the E6. Curved does distort the picture slightly, makes it harder to get good uniformity, and since there's only 1 curved model this year it means the panels will likely be on a separate assembly line than the other 3 TVs. Meaning any issues may take longer to address and/or be exclusive to the C6.

It's crazy that such expensive TVs have sound bars. Who pays $7,000-$10,000 for a TV and doesn't have an existing audio setup? Can we just remove the sound bar, and get the glass stand look?
That is a major selling point for me,I can't have sound system because my neighbors complaining,and this is the perfect way to get a little better sound.I wonder if there is any difference between the G and E series regarding the sound bar ?
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post #89 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
"Quality IPS monitors" are now ~3ms total latency - panel and processing. (source)
As I said previously, LG's displays - such as the 34UM95 you mentioned - seem to have considerably higher latency than most new displays. Though it scored ~24ms at TFT Central, so not quite as bad as the 30-35ms you mentioned.

35-40ms won't take me any time to get used to, because I won't buy a display with that much latency.
It doesn't matter how high the contrast is on an OLED panel, I'm not going to spend several thousand dollars to end up with almost double the latency that my current LCD has (20ms) when that is already higher than I would prefer.

If these OLEDs are limited to 60Hz and still lack Adaptive-Sync support, that makes minimum latency in a game ~68ms. 35ms for the display, and 33ms for the two frames of latency that V-Sync adds at 60 FPS.
Even just adding Adaptive-Sync support would greatly reduce the latency, since it eliminates the need for V-Sync.
The display's own latency would ideally be ≤16ms, since that gets us on par with a V-Synced 120Hz CRT.
Wait hold up, I'm talking 60hz here because there's no such thing as a 120/144Hz OLED TV. We can't expect input lag to be anywhere close to a 120/144hz panel of any type.

Those fast IPS panels you linked are not 60hz. Most 60hz IPS professional grade monitors are around 20-35ms even when tweaked for monitor usage. A 60hz IPS TV will generally have a little bit more input lag than a 60hz IPS monitor, even with PC mode enabled, because there's still a lot more going on inside of a TV. Sadly, we are most likely never going to see a GSYNC/FreeSync OLED TV. You will probably be waiting a long time, if you want an OLED with 20ms or less input lag. It probably won't be achievable until we see 120/144hz OLED monitors which could be 10 years away for all we know.

When comparing 60hz to 60hz, LG OLEDs fair extremely well and have very little room for improvement. Samsung's S9C OLED has around 60-65ms, and Panasonic's new OLED has 70-75ms if memory serves (both with game/PC mode enabled). My numbers may be slightly off but I found the S9C completely unusable for PC use. The difference in input lag between my EF9500 and 34UM95 when dual monitoring is very small.


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That is a major selling point for me,I can't have sound system because my neighbors complaining,and this is the perfect way to get a little better sound.I wonder if there is any difference between the G and E series regarding the sound bar ?
The G series has a much better sound bar according to the AVForum interview. The E series sound bar is only stereo I think?
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post #90 of 12480 Old 01-07-2016, 10:44 AM
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Wait hold up, I'm talking 60hz here because there's no such thing as a 120/144Hz OLED TV. We can't expect input lag to be anywhere close to a 120/144hz panel of any type.
Those fast IPS panels you linked are not 60hz. Most 60hz IPS professional grade monitors are around 20-35ms even when tweaked for monitor usage.
Refresh rate has very little to do with it.
The Dell P2414H and P2714H monitors have some of the lowest processing latency on this chart - even lower than some 120Hz displays - yet they are both 60Hz "professional" monitors.
You can have a 60Hz display with 200ms latency or a 60Hz display with 0ms latency - CRTs being an example of the latter. It's entirely due to the processing in the display, and not the refresh rate.
And it's not always that a display with high latency is doing more, just that it's less optimized, or using older hardware.
It just happens that most 120Hz+ displays are typically well-optimized for latency, since they are usually aimed at the gaming market.

The main thing which refresh rate would affect is your minimum latency when V-Sync is enabled - which is not being tested there.
This is simple math. A 60Hz refresh rate limits you to 60 FPS, and two frames of latency at 60 FPS for V-Sync = 33.33ms. (1000/60 = 16.67ms per frame)
At 120Hz this is halved, and you have a minimum of 16.67ms latency added by V-Sync - assuming you can sustain 120 FPS. (two frames at 60 FPS on a 120Hz display still add 33.33ms latency)

Variable Refresh Rate technologies - Adaptive-Sync and G-Sync - eliminate the need for V-Sync, and so they remove that additional latency.
Even though a CRT display would have zero latency added by processing delays, if you run it with V-Sync enabled there are still two frames of latency being added.
This gives flat panels with VRR support the potential to have a lower total latency than CRT, even if their processing has non-zero latency.

There's no reason to expect OLED displays to have high latency - even if they're limited to 60Hz - other than just assuming it's going to remain the case as long as LG are producing them, since they can't seem to figure out how to produce low-latency displays like everyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post
A 60hz IPS TV will generally have a little bit more input lag than a 60hz IPS monitor, even with PC mode enabled, because there's still a lot more going on inside of a TV.
There really shouldn't be "more going on" in the PC or Game modes. All of that unnecessary/harmful image processing should be disabled.
A common issue with some displays is that, due to the way they are architected, disabling features brings no latency benefits.

One example would be the early displays with frame interpolation options.
Even if you disabled the frame interpolation, which added 3+ frames of latency, the display would still be buffering 3 frames before displaying anything, even if the interpolation was not being applied.
Most displays avoid that mistake with interpolation now, but that is probably not true for all of the processing they are capable of - which could be a factor in why latency is still so high on many of them.
It's things like that which raise latency more than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post
When comparing 60hz to 60hz, LG OLEDs fair extremely well and have very little room for improvement. Samsung's S9C OLED has around 60-65ms, and Panasonic's new OLED has 70-75ms if memory serves (both with game/PC mode enabled). My numbers may be slightly off but I found the S9C completely unusable for PC use. The difference in input lag between my EF9500 and 34UM95 when dual monitoring is very small.
The better 60Hz televisions - including my 5 year old Sony - measure about 20ms latency. 40-60ms is not competitive with that at all.
An additional 20ms may not sound like a lot, but that is significant.
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