2016 LG OLEDs - G6, E6, C6, and B6 - Page 69 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2041 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by anis_ber View Post
holy crap
That user (TV shop from Greece) has C6 too. sorry but it looks better to me without this glass on thing or whatever it's called
The signs by the TV are in Italian, but the dialogue is indeed Greek. I think it must be some sort of trade show or LG tech fair in Italy. For anyone curious, here is what they are basically saying from what I can hear:

"This one doesn't have the speakers like the other one."
"The panel from the signature and this one are the same?"
"Yes they are the same"
"There are some slight differences, the edge as you can see here, the other one doesn't have this sliver"
"The Signature series is always flat right or am I mistaken?"
"Yes it is flat, the Signature name is designated only to the G series, no other one, not to the E or the C, nor the B"
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post #2042 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
I'd lay money Ken will end up with an OLED at some point... I'm not sure when Ken's opinions became the gold standard. I respect him but I don't agree with everything he says/does; he was pretty ignorant of HDR when 1st announced. He has however slowly started warming up to it; now that he can see it's possibilities.

For the *time* of his purchase he made the right decision for his needs. I'd wager things won't be the same this year if he were to redo his decision. David M. is very particular (as is Ken); so for me his words on the issue are telling.

It's like anything; AV stuff is a moving target. Using old data/opinions to make decisions today isn't always applicable. Especially on a product evolving as quickly as OLED is.
I bought a 940c also. If I were to make a decision now, I would get a 940c for $5,500. OLED looks better, but 75" is a lot bigger than 65" and the picture quality difference isn't that much.

When I can get a 70"+ OLED at a reasonable price, i'll consider it.
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post #2043 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by robert9674 View Post
Prices for the Sony 2016 TVs. Sony has lost thier damn mind... 5k for an edge lit tv...ha.ha.ha......here I come lg


http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1455632344
All TVs have a high MSRP. If the MSRP proves to be too high, they'll just lower the retail price until it sells. No TV has ever failed because the MSRP was too high. Some have failed because the retail price was too high.

Don't be too quick to dismiss a TV before seeing it in person. Or praise a TV either.
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post #2044 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I bought a 940c also. If I were to make a decision now, I would get a 940c for $5,500. OLED looks better, but 75" is a lot bigger than 65" and the picture quality difference isn't that much.

When I can get a 70"+ OLED at a reasonable price, i'll consider it.
Right...

I was speaking for 2016; when 2015 models no longer exist. You'll have to see how things look then.

But ya, I don't think 2016 will be when 77" will drop in price to that level. Be amazing if it did; but realistically speaking production volume is not high enough for them to think about pricing them that cheap. They won't be mass producing 77" OLED(s) this year (depending on your definition of mass I suppose).
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post #2045 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TallCoolOne View Post
The signs by the TV are in Italian, but the dialogue is indeed Greek. I think it must be some sort of trade show or LG tech fair in Italy. For anyone curious, here is what they are basically saying from what I can hear:

"This one doesn't have the speakers like the other one."
"The panel from the signature and this one are the same?"
"Yes they are the same"
"There are some slight differences, the edge as you can see here, the other one doesn't have this sliver"
"The Signature series is always flat right or am I mistaken?"
"Yes it is flat, the Signature name is designated only to the G series, no other one, not to the E or the C, nor the B"
good to have a Greek person around
I asked the guy if there was a B6 too but he didn't answer

edit: he just answered, looks like B6 was not in showroom :-(

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post #2046 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 12:15 PM
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So what is the UPP pricing on the lg Oleds for 2016? Does anyone have this info?
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post #2047 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
All TVs have a high MSRP. If the MSRP proves to be too high, they'll just lower the retail price until it sells. No TV has ever failed because the MSRP was too high. Some have failed because the retail price was too high.

Don't be too quick to dismiss a TV before seeing it in person. Or praise a TV either.
They are reporting in the 940D Anticipation thread that UPP on the Sony will be $6500.
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post #2048 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 12:51 PM
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I'd be surprised it the 77" gets reasonable until after LG opens the P10 fab. That means >2 years from now, quite possibly not until late 2018-2019.

That there's a clearly good alternative 75" from another brand, using another technology, that is < 1/4 of the price assuming you find it on discount (which ought to be easy enough later this year) is something anyone shopping over 65" should seriously consider. If you want 65" only, it appears LG already offers an almost-competitive price and most of us agree it will (a) either be much lower later this year of (b) certainly get there with the 2017 fab conversion and therefore be in place by next summer/fall -- a little more than a year after the B6/C6 ship in the first place.

So you could wait 0-18 months for a "reasonably" priced 65-inch OLED, buy last year's pretty good 75-inch not OLED not at a decent price, buy this year's pretty good 75-inch not OLED in ~6 months at a better price or wait 30-48 months for a "reasonably" priced 77-inch OLED.

The above is not a recommendation about what path to choose. It rather lays out the likely paths before you.
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post #2049 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 01:19 PM
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I'd lay money Ken will end up with an OLED at some point...
I thought I already said that. In fact I've said several times that if I were in the market for a 65" TV, it would be OLED. Period.
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I'm not sure when Ken's opinions became the gold standard.
I don't think anyone has said that, but I think I've always tried to be objective in my assessments, and that will bug some and be appreciated by others. it is what it is.

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I respect him but I don't agree with everything he says/does;
Thanks. I don't even agree with myself all the time. I frequently argue with myself. Wait...what?

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he was pretty ignorant of HDR when 1st announced. He has however slowly started warming up to it; now that he can see it's possibilities.
Well 'ignorant' isn't quite fair SiGGy. I based my opinion (as I had stated every time I expressed it) on what I had seen at the 2015 CES. The HDR displays that the public had access to were terrible. Terrible. I was certainly not alone on this. In fact several of the calibrators agreed with me and mentioned the really good HDR displays were not open to the public. But I'm in the habit of expressing my views based on what I've seen, not what might be.

However, yes, now that I see HDR on an almost daily basis, the best is truly excellent and the worst...well, remember what I said about the 2015 CES? That still stands. The HDR that's available to us today varies from excellent to quite poor.
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For the *time* of his purchase he made the right decision for his needs. I'd wager things won't be the same this year if he were to redo his decision.
Very honestly SiGGy, if I were making the same choice today, I would be even more apt to make the same decision. I wanted a large screen display in my den and 65" was not going to do it. So my choices were the 75" 940c at $6500 or the 77" OLED at $20,000-25,000. What do you think? Considering how highly I regarded the Sony in multiple in-store comparisons, the decision was just about a no-brainer.
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David M. is very particular (as is Ken); so for me his words on the issue are telling.

It's like anything; AV stuff is a moving target. Using old data/opinions to make decisions today isn't always applicable. Especially on a product evolving as quickly as OLED is.
Well, yes, that's true, but unfortunately one critical aspect of the 77" OLED equation has not changed with LG, price. So even if the 77" was now perfect (and we surely don't know that since nobody has yet seen it short of CES), it still is a breathtaking $25,000. So, my decision, as I mentioned above, would be the same.
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post #2050 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 01:31 PM
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See this is you adding major speculation and conjecture to the difference. My statements were much simpler.

1) I believe that the G and E series were based on the the 2015 high-end unit. My speculation is there will be differences in electronics as they come from different sources and are targeting different prices. Now this difference may only manifest itself in slightly faster UI or App performance. (Also I don't see them being the same if just to reduce the BOM cost on the lower end units)

2) Panels will have to be tested for Peak brightness to insure they make Ultra HD Premium certification. The target for LG Display stated in the avforums video was 600 nits at D65. Some panels will do better than that target and some will not. My speculation is that peak brightness (along with other characteristics) will inform LG Electronics as to which panels go into their signature line of OLED products.

Now will #2 have any impact on picture quality? Maybe, maybe not (that is to be seen and tested) once the G, E and B series are shipping.

Perhaps we can come with a test for all the near-black uniformity crowd to record their peak brightness to make sure they get the good panels. (i.e. those over 600 nits
Your statement #2 is incorrect. All panels are not tested for peak brightness. A sampling is pulled and characterized to determine the bell curve on performance metrics such as peak brightness (which takes a great deal of time) and the spec is set safely below the lower end of that bell curve. In production, functional test only is used (which is fast/inexpensive).

Please drop this false speculation about any binning or differences in peak brightness between the various product lines (especially since LG has already indicated that the PQ characteristics would be identical across the 2016 lineup).
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post #2051 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Very honestly SiGGy, if I were making the same choice today, I would be even more apt to make the same decision. I wanted a large screen display in my den and 65" was not going to do it. So my choices were the 75" 940c at $6500 or the 77" OLED at $20,000-25,000. What do you think? Considering how highly I regarded the Sony in multiple in-store comparisons, the decision was just about a no-brainer.
yes $25k is IMO ridiculous. I'm in your same camp; I'd do the same. I think in 2017 they might have the capacity to start dropping the 77" where it's not priced astronomically.

When I typed that I meant the 65" which I see you are in agreement. 77" OLED isn't even on my radar.

edited
So I see your point on HDR from the stance of what you have seen. I'm so over our luminance starved 8bit world. I have been waiting for HDR and 10bit video for many years. Video has never looked right with 8 bits; occasionally BR mastering could nail scenes with good dithering/optimization but never across the entire film. Once the mastering guys get more time with 10bit video and HDR I think we'll get some great encodes. I think it's analogous to early DVD's; I expect "crap" until the equivalent "superbit" HDR/UHD BluRays come out. By the time BR came out basically all DVD encoding was "superbit".

HDR can certainly be abused... I'm sure if transformers was done HDR it would be WAY over the top; lol.
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post #2052 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 01:35 PM
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Very very positive impressions. Good to hear they tested all the way down to 1% and had some favorable impressions.


B6 day one for me.
Since he tested during the day and under a skylight, we need to take his statements regarding near-black uniformity with some grain of salt.

On the other hand, he has seen the 65EF9500 so claims of improvement are encouraging, and the new 1-hour anti-noise calibration capability has me downright excited.

I'll want one of these 2016 OLEDs for that new capability alone.

Now we just need to wait for someone to get one of these 2016 OLEDs into a dark viewing environment to understand what it all means .
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post #2053 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I wonder if all the 2016 iterations will give the user the G's control over the 'panel measurement process', or will this just be restricted to the G?

Although this was an automated process in the 2015 models, it's great that LG is now offering greater user control over this uniformity improvement process.
Until all of these sets are in the wild, there is a degree of speculation which cannot be avoided.

On the other hand, every indication (including statements by LG) is that the 2016 OLED lineup will share identical picture quality (of which calibration to cancel 'noise' would seem to be an important capability), so I suspect that the entire 2016 lineup will have this new on-demand 1-hour calibration capability.

Additional arguments in favor of this view are that A) it doesn't really cost LG much of anything - it costs the owner an hour of downtime whenever they want to lock themselves out of their TV for that amount of time; and B) in this early-market-development phase, LG has an interest in establishing OLED picture quality as fantastic with as few counter examples and counter arguments as possible - OLED is all about 'perfect black' and if LG has any way to close the near-black uniformity gap versus LCD, I would be shocked if they did not roll that out as quickly and as fully as they could.

The only counter argument to this position that I can think of is the other debate going on about electronics. If the G6 and the E6 have upgraded processors versus the B6 and C6 which recycle the electronics platform recycled from the EF9500, and if this enhanced calibration capability requires upgraded electronics (for processor speed or available memory or whatever), then the B6/C6 could be stuck with the 2015 calibration solution.

Since it is now clear that the B6/C6 will share the 'Perfect Mastering Engine' and WebOS3.0 with the G6/E6, however, I'll be schocked if the entire 2016 lineup does not share this improved calibration capability as well.

Need to maintain a note of caution until we actually see what it translates to in actual dark-room viewing, but I am honestly more excited about this 1-hour calibration capability (along with the rumored switch from 'interna'l' calibration to 'external' calibration) than I am by either the increased color gamut or the increased brightness .
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post #2054 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 01:58 PM
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On the other hand, he has seen the 65EF9500 so claims of improvement are encouraging, and the new 1-hour anti-noise calibration capability has me downright excited.

I'll want one of these 2016 OLEDs for that new capability alone.
And what makes you think that will not be part of a firmware update for the 2015 OLEDs? At the very least, we know we're getting a WebOS 3.0 "lite", which may also include the different colored menus. There's a lot we still don't know about what kind of updates the 2015 models will get.
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post #2055 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I'd be surprised it the 77" gets reasonable until after LG opens the P10 fab. That means >2 years from now, quite possibly not until late 2018-2019.

That there's a clearly good alternative 75" from another brand, using another technology, that is < 1/4 of the price assuming you find it on discount (which ought to be easy enough later this year) is something anyone shopping over 65" should seriously consider. If you want 65" only, it appears LG already offers an almost-competitive price and most of us agree it will (a) either be much lower later this year of (b) certainly get there with the 2017 fab conversion and therefore be in place by next summer/fall -- a little more than a year after the B6/C6 ship in the first place.

So you could wait 0-18 months for a "reasonably" priced 65-inch OLED, buy last year's pretty good 75-inch not OLED not at a decent price, buy this year's pretty good 75-inch not OLED in ~6 months at a better price or wait 30-48 months for a "reasonably" priced 77-inch OLED.

The above is not a recommendation about what path to choose. It rather lays out the likely paths before you.
I agree.

Said another way:

LG is now positioned to compete for share of the premium 55" market (where they have a great deal of competition and are unlikely to dominate).

LG is now positioned to dominate the premium 65" market, especially once P10 comes online and reduces the cost of 65" OLED panels by over 1/3. Fantastic 65" HDR FALD LED/LCDs could weaken LGs position before then, but no signs of that happening yet (the $6000 Vizio R65 being the only contender .

LG is not in a position to be competetive in the above-65" premium market and is unlikely to make agressive moves to capture share in that market before production coming off of P10 is on the horizon (meaning they start getting agressive with 77" pricing in Q4'17, best-case).

So yes, unfortunately for you 'need-at-least-77" types like Ken, unlikely that there is going to be an OLED TV in your future until 2018 (at least for your primary screen .
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post #2056 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 02:07 PM
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The only time I ever notice clouding is white text against a black background. Which is something that never occurs outside of credits. Even then its subtle.
How about space scenes? I hate how they look on my LCD.
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post #2057 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 02:12 PM
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And what makes you think that will not be part of a firmware update for the 2015 OLEDs? At the very least, we know we're getting a WebOS 3.0 "lite", which may also include the different colored menus. There's a lot we still don't know about what kind of updates the 2015 models will get.
That would be fantastic, I am just not counting on it.

First, this new calibration capability may involve pixel-level calibration versus column-level, which would require a great deal more memory to store.

Second, the change from 'internal' compensation to 'external' calibration makes it sound as though hardware is involved (if not the OLED panel itself .

An upgrade for the EF9500 would be great but even if that were to materialize, I'll be upgrading to a 2017 model for the Dolby Vision capability .
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post #2058 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 02:20 PM
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And what makes you think that will not be part of a firmware update for the 2015 OLEDs? At the very least, we know we're getting a WebOS 3.0 "lite", which may also include the different colored menus. There's a lot we still don't know about what kind of updates the 2015 models will get.

Has this been confirmed that 2015 models will get an OS update?
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post #2059 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 02:29 PM
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Since he tested during the day and under a skylight, we need to take his statements regarding near-black uniformity with some grain of salt.

On the other hand, he has seen the 65EF9500 so claims of improvement are encouraging, and the new 1-hour anti-noise calibration capability has me downright excited.

I'll want one of these 2016 OLEDs for that new capability alone.

Now we just need to wait for someone to get one of these 2016 OLEDs into a dark viewing environment to understand what it all means .
Are you gonna' trade up with a dealer exchange voucher? Mine expires on March 3, 2016, at which point I'll have to either preorder an E6 (if allowed) or let it lapse (and request an extension later when product is available). Even with a preorder, I'll likely need an extension unless I'm prepared to go without a TV for a few months. I would like to get it done sooner rather than later since there is the nagging thought in the back of my mind that they won't renew it for one reason or another.
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post #2060 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 02:36 PM
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Sorry if this has been posted. But I dont want to read thru 2000+ post. I am guessing these models are not for wall mounting?


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post #2061 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 02:46 PM
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Are you gonna' trade up with a dealer exchange voucher? Mine expires on March 3, 2016, at which point I'll have to either preorder an E6 (if allowed) or let it lapse (and request an extension later when product is available). Even with a preorder, I'll likely need an extension unless I'm prepared to go without a TV for a few months. I would like to get it done sooner rather than later since there is the nagging thought in the back of my mind that they won't renew it for one reason or another.

If LG knows you will be buying a 16 model, I don't see why they wouldn't extend it. I was told that they would send you an email stating as such if necessary. This was coming from Charles the manager of VIP care.


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post #2062 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 02:50 PM
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Your statement #2 is incorrect. All panels are not tested for peak brightness. A sampling is pulled and characterized to determine the bell curve on performance metrics such as peak brightness (which takes a great deal of time) and the spec is set safely below the lower end of that bell curve. In production, functional test only is used (which is fast/inexpensive).
So if they don't actually certify them (i.e. actually validate that each panel satisfies the criteria of the Ultra HD Premium Standard) then all the more reason to develop a test that evaluates these criteria. If a simple functional test is used then it is entirely possible that some panels that are shipped with the sticker won't actually achieve the standard. I as a customer of this technology would want to have a set of tests that I could run that does actually validate the specifications for the specific panel that I have.

I know that calibrating HDR displays is not like it was in the SDR (Rec 709) setup and perhaps efforts are already being made to develop these tests. Does anyone know of active development on these kinds of tests?
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post #2063 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 02:50 PM
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Since he tested during the day and under a skylight, we need to take his statements regarding near-black uniformity with some grain of salt.
Not sure if that is 100% correct. Robert put a black tarp over the skylight - at least earlier in the week. Robert also mentioned to me the other day that David was there into the night testing the G6. I doubt he would make comments on black levels based on daytime images.
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post #2064 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 02:57 PM
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Yea, I can't see how he would dare to make a comment about a 1% stimulus with any level of daylight. Things are looking better for 2016...
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post #2065 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 02:58 PM
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That would be fantastic, I am just not counting on it.

First, this new calibration capability may involve pixel-level calibration versus column-level, which would require a great deal more memory to store.
The way I read that (mini) review is they are simply making the "hidden" (in the service menu) compensation cycle function available via the settings menu with the added ability to "force" it. They can add/subtract anything they want from the settings menu without too much work.

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post #2066 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 03:00 PM
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And what makes you think that will not be part of a firmware update for the 2015 OLEDs? At the very least, we know we're getting a WebOS 3.0 "lite", which may also include the different colored menus. There's a lot we still don't know about what kind of updates the 2015 models will get.
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Has this been confirmed that 2015 models will get an OS update?
Yes, in an interview/video from CES; you can find the reference/link in the 9500 thread. The only thing we don't know is when they are going to issue the update, but it's a safe bet it won't be before they release the 2016 models.

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post #2067 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 03:01 PM
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Your statement #2 is incorrect. All panels are not tested for peak brightness. A sampling is pulled and characterized to determine the bell curve on performance metrics such as peak brightness (which takes a great deal of time) and the spec is set safely below the lower end of that bell curve. In production, functional test only is used (which is fast/inexpensive).



Please drop this false speculation about any binning or differences in peak brightness between the various product lines (especially since LG has already indicated that the PQ characteristics would be identical across the 2016 lineup).

The panel is different across all lines, right. Thickness, etc. not PQ. So in theory LG could sample and pick out the ones with higher peak nits for the G series. I was told the one at VE measured over 600 nits.

But then again if this was true LG is stupid not to market this in their advertising efforts.


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post #2068 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 03:09 PM
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Not sure if that is 100% correct. Robert put a black tarp over the skylight - at least earlier in the week. Robert also mentioned to me the other day that David was there into the night testing the G6. I doubt he would make comments on black levels based on daytime images.
Maybe you should go back and see what he posted on the question: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post41457977

"One thing to note is that I'm yet to see the display in a pitch black environment. Unfortunately there was no way to get a pitch black room at VE, so I wasn't comfortable in making decisions about 1% above black for example. 2% and above were quite discernible though. I'm going to ask LG if I can get a review sample and put one through the HDTVtest process at my own place. "

If a tarp was placed over the skylight, then great, at least the testing was in dim-room conditions rather than bright room. But until I hear from someone who has calibrated for dark-room viewing (meaning gamma of 2.4 and peak brightness of 120 cd/m2 or less) and tested 1% and 2% fields in the dark, I'm going to reserve judgement on the degree of near-black uniformity improvement (though it seems likely that it must be better and is certainly not worse ).
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post #2069 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 03:13 PM
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The way I read that (mini) review is they are simply making the "hidden" (in the service menu) compensation cycle function available via the settings menu with the added ability to "force" it. They can add/subtract anything they want from the settings menu without too much work.
Yes, that is a simple change (menus). It is the one-hour compensation cycle of the 2016 models versus the ~5 minute compensation cycle of the 2015 models as well as indications from LG regarding 'new compensation capability' and the development of an improved 'external' compensation technology that is better than the 'interna'l' compensation technology they used in the past that makes me doubtful of an upgrade for the 2015 OLEDs...
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post #2070 of 12467 Old 02-16-2016, 03:20 PM
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Yes, that is a simple change (menus). It is the one-hour compensation cycle of the 2016 models versus the ~5 minute compensation cycle of the 2015 models as well as indications from LG regarding 'new compensation capability' and the development of an improved 'external' compensation technology that is better than the 'interna'l' compensation technology they used in the past that makes me doubtful of an upgrade for the 2015 OLEDs...
Until we have more details on what they're doing other than the time it takes to do it, I assume the algorithm could be duplicated on any OLED display (it's "only" software).

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