2016 LG C6-B6 owners thread - Page 229 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6841 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jtrosky View Post
Thanks for the info - I will read through the article. But what gets me is that I never noticed this issue on my previous LCD sets (or CRT sets for that matter) with the same content source. It's only become an "issue" since I got this OLED set. It definitely seems related to the OLED tech itself or the processing used on these OLED sets.

I guess what I'm saying is that this OLED set seems to exaggerate the "judder" greatly on some material.

I'm going to find a good example of it on one of my DVR recordings and then compare the OLED to that same scene on one of the LCD's in my house, just to make sure that I'm not crazy for thinking it's an issue specific to the OLED.

Will report back (hopefully with comparison videos) after I find a good example on my DVR...

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You're getting way more picture detail on this set than on any LCD you may have. It's an apples to oranges comparison, in my opinion. This TV is not exaggerating anything...it's just more accurately displaying what is already there. This is a frustration that has been around since bluray disks first came out and people were aghast at the 24p "motion defects."

Engaging TruMotion will fix this issue for you. Some of us just don't like the more "realistic" feel to the results. If film makers eventually change their ways and start filming everything in 60p, then we'll all look back on this era as having been kind of quaint. I like the look and feel of 24p (judder and all), but that's just because I'm accustomed to it.

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Last edited by dwarfnebula; 11-23-2016 at 09:45 AM.
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post #6842 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dwarfnebula View Post
You're getting way more picture detail on this set than on any LCD you may have. It's an apples to oranges comparison, in my opinion. This TV is not exaggerating anything...it's just more accurately displaying what is already there. This is a frustration that has been around since bluray disks first came out and people were aghast at the 24p "motion defects."
Interesting. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about 4k content or anything - I'm just talking about regular old cable content (or Version FIOS, I should say). So you're telling me that this judder I see is *supposed* to be there and my other LCD sets just "hide" it? If so, man, I wish these OLED sets provided a way to "hide" it as well, because it's definitely not something that makes the experience better, that's for damn sure! :-)

Don't take this the wrong wrong, I'm not trying to "shoot the messenger" here (I appreciate the info!) - just trying to understand it better.

I can understand OLED showing certain issues more than LCD because of their improved black levels, but just can't quite understand why the judder would be so much worse with cable content. Unless, LCD sets just "hide" the judder because they blur it more or something?

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post #6843 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 09:49 AM
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Is there a way to tell what resolution the B6 is displaying with video games and movies? Thanks.
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post #6844 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Geo JAB View Post
Hey guys do any of you know how to play a file over 4GB on a thumb drive on the Oled? it seems the only format my Oled will play is on Fat32 but you cant store anything over 4gb on on the thumb drive with that system. I have files over 4GB i want to play on the set but cant.
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Yeah, I don't know why they don't support a more modern format besides FAT32... The only way that I know of (short of "chopping" the file into multiple pieces) is to stream it over the network...

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I'm pretty much computer illiterate so take this with a grain of salt, but I have an 8G SandDisk Cruzer that I've had for a long time and just bought a 32G SanDisk Ultra USB 3.0. Some of the demos I have are as much as 8G and they all play without a hitch. Hopefully someone that knows this stuff will chime in.

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post #6845 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jtrosky View Post
Interesting. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about 4k content or anything - I'm just talking about regular old cable content (or Version FIOS, I should say). So you're telling me that this judder I see is *supposed* to be there and my other LCD sets just "hide" it? If so, man, I wish these OLED sets provided a way to "hide" it as well, because it's definitely not something that makes the experience better, that's for damn sure! :-)

Don't take this the wrong wrong, I'm not trying to "shoot the messenger" here (I appreciate the info!) - just trying to understand it better.

I can understand OLED showing certain issues more than LCD because of their improved black levels, but just can't quite understand why the judder would be so much worse with cable content. Unless, LCD sets just "hide" the judder because they blur it more or something?

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Right, filmed material (movies and a lot of TV shows) shown on Cable are all mostly shot at 24 frames per second. All will have some issues with judder; it's inherent in the source material. LCD sets do hide that to some extent, but the issue was there too. It's kind of the same reason why you don't notice it at the theater (it's there, it's just that the flickering of the projector hides the issue somewhat...and directors know about the effect and will intentionally frame their scenes to avoid it as much as possible).

These OLED sets DO provide a way to hide it...it's TruMotion. Engage that and the effect will go away. It's really a personal thing...some people are more sensitive to judder than others. Some people don't notice it all.
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post #6846 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 09:58 AM
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Is there a way to tell what resolution the B6 is displaying with video games and movies? Thanks.
Use the Magic Remote. Wave it around and then move the cursor up to the upper left corner of the screen. Then click the scroll wheel once. That will show information on the content stream.

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post #6847 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 10:10 AM
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Use the Magic Remote. Wave it around and then move the cursor up to the upper left corner of the screen. Then click the scroll wheel once. That will show information on the content stream.
This shows the resolution, but is there anyway to see the fps? With the previous VIzio I had, I could see that and it was kind of nice for troubleshooting stuff like this.

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post #6848 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 10:25 AM
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For god's sake, PLEASE Anyone con access to EZ-Menu or Service menu can see if during HDR playback is there any way to FORCE GAMMA TO 1.9 (Locked by LG to 2.2)? Because with Masciola HDR test i've discovered that it is IMPOSSIBLE to reach the entire grayscale without clipping, also i discovered that Black Level is directly vinculated to colour clipping, with Black level at Low (As most people use) HDR will clip at 700nits, with Black level high on my TV clips at 1500nits/1700 depending the colour (of course, to counter the "More brighter image" you have to down by 2 points the brightness, thats why, with that and access to Gamma 1.9 the image quality will be PERFECT)

(ONLY ON B6, the C6 model uses the same firm as E6 and G6, have different black settings by firmware)

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post #6849 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 10:32 AM
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For god's sake, PLEASE Anyone con access to EZ-Menu or Service menu can see if during HDR playback is there any way to FORCE GAMMA TO 1.9? Because with Masciola HDR test i've discovered that it is IMPOSSIBLE to reach the entire grayscale without clipping, also i discovered that Black Level is directly vinculated to colour clipping, with Black level at Low (As most people use) HDR will clip at 700nits, with Black level high on my TV clips at 1500nits/1700 depending the colour
Bolding, all caps, and shouting will definitely help. I don't believe there is any way to do what you are trying to do. In my opinion, you probably could use the services of a professional calibrator. Good luck.
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post #6850 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jtrosky View Post
This shows the resolution, but is there anyway to see the fps? With the previous VIzio I had, I could see that and it was kind of nice for troubleshooting stuff like this.

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None that I know of. For what it's worth, the "info" button on my harmony remote brings up slightly different information on the content. But it doesn't show fps.

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post #6851 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 10:35 AM
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Bolding, all caps, and shouting will definitely help. I don't believe there is any way to do what you are trying to do. In my opinion, you probably could use the services of a professional calibrator. Good luck.
Yeah yeah i know that i should not use them but the forum moves so quick so is the quickest way to make it visible

Calibrators cant do anything, since Luminance and Gamma controls are locked on HDR, thats why i want to know if there's any way to force it on one of those 2 menus, because with Gamma 1.9 we will be able to see the entire grayscale and deeper blacks, with 2.2 it's impossible without clipping the colors to 700nits, the difference between "Black level low at brightness 50" and "black level high at brightness 48" is stunning, on games like Uncharted is a world changer on brighter scenes, also on movies where i was seeing clipping on sun scenes and things like that, there's no clipping, try it by yourself on a movie or game that you know is clipping the details

I just have the impression that LG want to force their customers to buy the 2017 series to be able to see that locked detail, it's ridiculous
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post #6852 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 10:40 AM
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So I am making 4k Content via Gopro studios and saving them in 4k using .mp4 or .avi extention. When I try to run them on the B6 Panel via the photo/video app it say the format can't be played. But when I try to run the raw footage which is shot in 4k 14 frames per second it stutters but does play. So my question is how do I play 4k Gopro videos on the B6 without the B6 Panel studdering and how do I play gorpro studio made movies in 4k. No problem in 1080. I tried 10 bit also and it didn't work.
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post #6853 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 10:43 AM
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Yeah yeah i know that i should not use them but the forum moves so quick so is the quickest way to make it visible

Calibrators cant do anything, since Luminance and Gamma controls are locked on HDR, thats why i want to know if there's any way to force it on one of those 2 menus, because with Gamma 1.9 we will be able to see the entire grayscale and deeper blacks, with 2.2 it's impossible without clipping the colors to 700nits, the difference between "Black level low at brightness 50" and "black level high at brightness 48" is stunning, on games like Uncharted is a world changer on brighter scenes, also on movies where i was seeing clipping on sun scenes and things like that, there's no clipping, try it by yourself on a movie or game that you know is clipping the details

I just have the impression that LG want to force their customers to buy the 2017 series to be able to see that locked detail, it's ridiculous
Hdr follows a EOTF gamma curve changing that setting would have no impact. That's why it is locked it's irrelevant for HDR. A calibrator can absolutely manipulate gray scale controls in HDR mode those can be used to influence gamma/luminance.

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post #6854 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 10:50 AM
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Hdr follows a EOTF gamma curve changing that setting would have no impact. That's why it is locked it's irrelevant for HDR. A calibrator can absolutely manipulate gray scale controls in HDR mode those can be used to influence gamma and luminance.

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On HDR you only have reference numbers and RGB controls, also RGBCMY control for colour/saturation/luminance (This last one should be never touched) so... How can they touch something that cant be fixed?

Sad to know then that changing Gamma would be for nothing, since the only thing left that could change things is Luminance and that one is blocked too, amazing

Well.. Then i suppose i prefeer to lose the deep black details if with that i have my colour clipping at 1500nits instead 500/700 as the TV does by default
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post #6855 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 10:56 AM
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On HDR you only have reference numbers and RGB controls, also RGBCMY control for colour/saturation/luminance (This last one should be never touched) so... How can they touch something that cant be fixed?

Sad to know then that changing Gamma would be for nothing, since the only thing left that could change things is Luminance and that one is blocked too, amazing

Well.. Then i suppose i prefeer to lose the deep black details if with that i have my colour clipping at 1500nits instead 500/700 as the TV does by default
Luminance is gamma by another name. HDR clips at about 70 ire on OLED. That's why Dolby Vision is a much better solution because of the dynamic metadata.

RGB is white balance the other controls are CMS granted they probably don't work well but they are there. My calibrator says HDR for external sources can be substantially improved with a calibration.

If HDR clipping is your main criteria then OLED may not be for you.

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post #6856 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:06 AM
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Luminance is gamma by another name. HDR clips at about 70 ire on OLED. That's why Dolby Vision is a much better solution because of the dynamic metadata.

RGB is white balance the other controls are CMS granted they probably don't work well but they are there. My calibrator says HDR for external sources can be substantially improved with a calibration.

If HDR clipping is your main criteria then OLED may not be for you.

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You have a B6? If you have a B6 (cause on C6 and E6/G6 the black seems to work on another way) and a movie like PAN (Sun scenes), Pacific Rim (Scenes with so much light), The Revenant (Sun scenes) or PS4 with HDR on Uncharted 4, test this:

Put Black Level to High, down by 2 points the Brightness to have back the pure black, now compare it to black level low with Brightness 50, the details you're losing by using Black Level to Low is INSANE, using @mascior HDR patterns i've discovered that, dont know why but Black Level is directly vinculated to Colour Clipping, by setting it to High the clipping changes from 500/600 to 1600nits! But using the black clipping test you see that you lose from 0 to 1,5% on black level, lot's of movie scenes uses that blacks, so it is annoying, thats why i wanted to know if there was any way to force the TV to change his Gamma level on HDR, that or LG has to make a firmware to let us use that contrast that Dynamic Contrast use, but only for black, because use Dynamic Contrast creates clipping too

As it is right now, seems like LG just want to force everyone to buy their 2017 series that will probably have all this changed, which is a shame

People with professional calibration can test the black level thing without any fear, it does not alter any colour, just at what level it clips

Last edited by 256k; 11-23-2016 at 11:12 AM.
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post #6857 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:19 AM
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Hey guys do any of you know how to play a file over 4GB on a thumb drive on the Oled? it seems the only format my Oled will play is on Fat32 but you cant store anything over 4gb on on the thumb drive with that system. I have files over 4GB i want to play on the set but cant.
Format the drive NTFS - "problem" solved.....

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post #6858 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:20 AM
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You have a B6? If you have a B6 (cause on C6 and E6/G6 the black seems to work on another way) and a movie like PAN (Sun scenes), Pacific Rim (Scenes with so much light), The Revenant (Sun scenes) or PS4 with HDR on Uncharted 4, test this:

Put Black Level to High, down by 2 points the Brightness to have back the pure black, now compare it to black level low with Brightness 50, the details you're losing by using Black Level to Low is INSANE, using @mascior HDR patterns i've discovered that, dont know why but Black Level is directly vinculated to Colour Clipping, by setting it to High the clipping changes from 500/600 to 1600nits! But using the black clipping test you see that you lose from 0 to 1,5% on black level, lot's of movie scenes uses that blacks, so it is annoying, thats why i wanted to know if there was any way to force the TV to change his Gamma level on HDR, that or LG has to make a firmware to let us use that contrast that Dynamic Contrast use, but only for black, because use Dynamic Contrast creates clipping too

As it is right now, seems like LG just want to force everyone to buy their 2017 series that will probably have all this changed, which is a shame

People with professional calibration can test the black level thing without any fear, it does not alter any colour, just at what level it clips
No I have a C6, black level low is for most video content mastered 16 to 235. Black level high is for pc content 0 to 255. No oled is capable of displaying 1600 nits on any size window . How did you come to that measurement ?

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post #6859 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:26 AM
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No I have a C6, black level low is for most video content mastered 16 to 235. Black level high is for pc content 0 to 255.

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Ok, for a second forget that, ok?, just put a movie where you know that your OLED must clip detail because of the low Nits that this tv's can read, now change between Black level low and High, you'll see it by yourself

I'll try to record a video later with my phone and Uncharted 4 to show how insane is the clipping that LG is forcing us to have vs the detail gained by using it, can also search for some movie scenes as i've said to show it too

The way LG OLED tv's are handling the HDR is just weird
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post #6860 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:27 AM
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Ok, for a second forget that, ok?, just put a movie where you know that your OLED must clip detail because of the low Nits that this tv's can read, now change between Black level low and High, you'll see it by yourself

I'll try to record a video later with my phone and Uncharted 4 to show how insane is the clipping that LG is forcing us to have vs the detail gained by using it, can also search for some movie scenes as i've said to show it too

The way LG OLED tv's are handling the HDR is just weird
Why would I use the wrong video level.for content that is mastered the correct way ?

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post #6861 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dwarfnebula View Post
This article is old and somewhat long, but it explains the issue:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judd...-Causes-Judder

The bottom line is that judder is inherent in 24fps content. You're definitely not the only one, but some people are more sensitive to the effect than others. A lot of us movie buffs prefer to have the film displayed to us exactly as the director intended (and that includes judder). TruMotion (or some form of frame interpolation) is the answer if you want to mitigate the effect. But that does come at the cost of changing the content (introducing a soap opera effect).

All of this only applies to filmed sources shot at 24fps. People who are commenting on artifacts that they are seeing when watching sports programming are not commenting on judder. Live sports events are shot on video at either 30 or 60 fps (so there is no pulldown required since TVs display at that framerate). Most likely these commenters are seeing artifacts that are a result of compression or some fault in the video feed itself.

I hope that helps.
Thanks for a very informative post. When TruMotion is enabled ... does it muck with 30fps and 60fps material? Or does it only process for 24fps material.

On a related note, how does one know what the fps on content being played via built-in apps? For that matter even contents coming in through HDMI ... you can only see the incoming resolution (when you click the input name on the top left with the magic mouse). Is there any way to display fps?
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post #6862 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:31 AM
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Thanks for a very informative post. When TruMotion is enabled ... does it muck with 30fps and 60fps material? Or does it only process for 24fps material.

On a related note, how does one know what the fps on content being played via built-in apps? For that matter even contents coming in through HDMI ... you can only see the incoming resolution (when you click the input name on the top left with the magic mouse). Is there any way to display fps?
I personally don't use trumotion for 30 or 60fps content no need for it since the set is 120hz.

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post #6863 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:33 AM
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Why would I use the wrong video level.for content that is mastered the correct way ?
To see by yourself that is the black level the guilty to clip al colours at 500/700nits? i'll prove it later with a video and @mascior HDR patterns...
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post #6864 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
I personally don't use trumotion for 30 or 60fps content no need for it since the set is 120hz.

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I think what he's asking is if you have Trumotion enabled for your cable input, for example (to help with 24fps content judder), does it also mess with the 30fps and 60fps content? Or does it only interact with the 24fps content? Obviously, for something like cable, we can't use "separate" TruMotion settings for 24fps and 30/60fps content.

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post #6865 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
Format the drive NTFS - "problem" solved.....
When I tried connecting an NTFS-formatted drive, the TV said it couldn't read it and wanted to format it. Are you saying that you can connect NTFS-formatted devices to the USB ports on the TV? If so, what model (I have a B6)?

EDIT: Scratch that, I just double-checked and it's actually formatted with "ExFAT", not NTFS... Will have to try an NTFS-formatted drive.... Thank you!

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post #6866 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by 256k View Post
To see by yourself that is the black level the guilty to clip al colours at 500/700nits? i'll prove it later with a video and @mascior HDR patterns...
I think calibrators or reviewers would have figured this out already? The brightness capacity of OLEDS Max's out at about 750 nits depending on the set and the window size. No manipulation of controls will ever change that .

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post #6867 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jtrosky View Post
I think what he's asking is if you have Trumotion enabled for your cable input, for example (to help with 24fps content judder), does it also mess with the 30fps and 60fps content? Or does it only interact with the 24fps content? Obviously, for something like cable, we can't use "separate" TruMotion settings for 24fps and 30/60fps content.

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Guess what cable is 60 fps or 30fps. I know what he is asking.

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Last edited by chunon; 11-23-2016 at 11:45 AM.
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post #6868 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
I think calibrators or reviewers would have figured this out already? The brightness capacity of OLEDS Max's out at about 750 nits depending on the set and the window size. No manipulation of controls will ever change that .

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That's the thing, no one has figured it out yet, you have @mascior patterns? it's easy to see it by yourself if you have them

Open the Colour Clipping Test HDR and change the black level between low and high, enjoy your extra nits
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post #6869 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:47 AM
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That's the thing, no one has figured it out yet, you have @mascior patterns? it's easy to see it by yourself if you have them

Open the Colour Clipping Test HDR and change the black level between low and high, enjoy your extra nits
Okay answer this how can a panel exceed it's max luminance level ? You are claiming 1600 nits that is impossible.

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post #6870 of 28037 Old 11-23-2016, 11:47 AM
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Use the Magic Remote. Wave it around and then move the cursor up to the upper left corner of the screen. Then click the scroll wheel once. That will show information on the content stream.
Thank you!
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