2016 LG C6-B6 owners thread - Page 334 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9991 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 06:09 AM
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@jtrosky it really is garbage in garbage out with these OLED displays. If you have a great source you're in for a treat, if not its hit or miss. Unfortunately there still aren't a lot of great sources and cable/FiOS/satellite compression is terrible. It really comes down to what bothers you the most.

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post #9992 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 06:15 AM
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Can we not turn this into a 930D review thread? Sorry but this stuff doesn't belong in an owners thread. Lots of other places to discuss. Also stating that the same thing 100s of times in multiple threads isn't going to change anything. If a set doesn't meet your needs it's pretty simple return it. Let the rest of us enjoy our sets in peace.

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post #9993 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glangford View Post
I've been away from this thread for a while, and yesterday read a bunch of comments about color saturation and basic settings. I spent about an hour a couple of days ago with a spears and munsil disc fine tuning contrast, brightness and color. You have to cycle through them as they are not totally independent of each other. Here is my result.

Isf dark
Oled light 40
Contrast 82
Brightness 53
Color 50 (Default)
Tint default
Gamma bt1886

Contrast came out to 84 initially, then when I looked at the clipping pattern (spears and munsil 1st edition) I decided the red and blue squares could stand to have contrast reduced a couple of notches more, so I ended up at 82. I then cycled back through the contrast test pattern, pluge low and high and then color again.

I'm a bit confused about many recent posts saying they needed color lower than 50. With the spears and munsil color pattern and using the blue only channel, 50 is just about right. A click or two lower and the difference in brightness between the blue and white bars is very apparent. click it back up to 50 and the brightness matches. Now you can go up even more and it takes to about 55 or a bit more for the brightness of those bars to not seem equal, but that would over do it. 50 is the lowest setting that shows an equal brightness in blue an white bars. All in all I'm genuinely pleased. I may crush blacks slightly, but not by much. I could mess with the luminance settings, but I'm not sure I want to do that. I had read somewhere earlier in the thread to reduce green at 5 IRE, is that correct? If so I may give it a try.

As far as real content. I don't notice any over saturation in colors on DVD, bluray, or 4k bluray, playing from my oppo. On cable, that's a different story. I do see a few channels that seem oversaturated, but for the most part I'm pleased with the time spent with the spears an munsil disc.
Do not reduce green at 5% lol If you want to try anything, you reduce it a couple of clicks at 30% and see if you see any change. If not, best to leave it at the default settings until you calibrate the set. You did the correct process with the S&M disk. When it comes to saturation, it's a slippery slope because it can be caused by your set top box, DVD player, etc, sending out an over saturated signal or a set that's out of calibration. Also, a lot cable channels are all over the place on what they are transmitting. Over or under saturation can be fixed by a proper calibration because if the grayscale balance or the CMS is off, you will also get these problems. I've seen a lot of B's and C's and most of the time they are pretty good out of the box but there are some sets that are not and need to be calibrated to line it back up to get a perfect picture. If you are not going to calibrate, then there are the color and tint controls to work with. What I've learned that in addition to the "panel lottery" there is also a "calibration lottery"..

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post #9994 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by bpmurr View Post
@jtrosky it really is garbage in garbage out with these OLED displays. If you have a great source you're in for a treat, if not its hit or miss. Unfortunately there still aren't a lot of great sources and cable/FiOS/satellite compression is terrible. It really comes down to what bothers you the most.
I understand that, but even with 4k blurays, the judder is still there (and *really* bad with TruMotion disabled) - and when you increase the de-judder to resolve it (which it does if set high enough), then it causes all sorts of other motion-related issues (artifacts) - so the motion issues aren't only with low-quality content.

It seems that everyone tries to blame the source material for *everything* on these LG OLED sets - but the bottom line is that their motion processing just isn't up to par - regardless of the source quality.

I do agree that it comes down to what bothers you the most. It is what it is. Thankfully, in the end, there are many choices out there to make everyone happy. :-)

Some advice for others considering *any* expensive TV purchase - unless you are 100% positive that you will be happy with a particular set (like you've already spent some time with it somewhere), make sure you buy from someone with a good return policy (meaning you can return something if you just don't like it)! Based on the reviews of this TV and all of the "gushing" about these OLED sets, I would have NEVER expected that I wouldn't be happy with it! But it sure is nice that I'm able to return/exchange it for something else since I'm not happy with it.

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post #9995 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jtrosky View Post
I completely understand and accept that there is no perfect TV. Trust me, I'm NOT looking forward to the potential backlight-related issues and limited viewing angles of LCD (compared to OLED), but for me, since the poor motion processing on the B6 affects so much material, it's a deal-breaker for me. I can accept not-so-black blacks and some *minor* backlight-related issues - but I cannot accept the poor motion handling on the B6 - it just affects too many programs - especially since ALL video has motion - and lots of it.



I think that if you are coming from a LCD TV where you had all motion processing disabled, and you keep all motion processing disabled on the B6, then the motion handling may be comparable ("judder'y"/"stuttery"). But for those of us that actually prefer smooth motion (aka soap-opera-effect) and had smoothing enabled on our previous LCD, we just can't replicate that level of smoothness on the B6 - at least not without creating so many other motion-related issues (aka "artifacts"). The inexpensive Vizio that I came from has Smoothing set to "Medium" and I obviously grew accustomed to it - I never even knew it was called "soap opera effect" - just seems very smooth and very natural to me that way. And the inexpensive Vizio does this smoothing without any noticeable side-effects like the B6 does (pretty major side-effects when any smoothing (de-judder) is enabled). It all just depends what you are used to and what you prefer I guess. I wish you guys could see my old Vizio in action compared to the B6 in terms of judder and/or jerky panning shots... What a HUGE difference in terms of motion.



Yeah, I've never owned a Sony TV before, but everything I've read says that Sony has the great upscaling and the best motion handling of any TV. Since I found that those are so important to me (which I just didn't realize before) - and even my old inexpensive Vizio handled motion so well, I think the Sony x930d will be a great choice for me.

While researching the Sony, I've been seeing lots of reviews like this:

I had a Panasonic plasma 60GT50 that had to be replaced due to screen burn. I got a credit toward a new TV because I had the warranty through Best Buy. I tried the Sony 850D, but was dis-satisfied with the blacks and sound. I tried the LG OLED, but the processor was terrible compared to the Sony and the picture had either way too much judder or motion blur no matter what setting I tried. I finally ended up with the Sony 930D and am much happier.
.

Some have even mentioned the B6 specifically (they also went from a B6 to the x930d) - this one is from the x930d owners thread on this forum:

I actually returned the b6 over the summer for a 930d & I couldn't be happier. The motion was horrendous on the b6. It also looked terrible when trying to upscale cable tv. I think oled is the most overrated technology out there right now. It has a long way to go imo. Anyways the sony is great at motion & upscales lower resolution great. I have not had any issues with light bleed as long as local dimming is on at least medium. With dimming off it gets iffy at times but it is meant to be turned on with this tv.
So I'm obviously not the only one that feels this way. :-) Like mentioned above, there is no perfect TV, so you just need to find one that "offends" you the least. :-) And different people have different aspects that "offend" them. So 2 different people may have completely different ideas on what is the "best" TV.

I never expected to have so many issues trying to "upgrade" from my old 55" Vizio 1080p LCD set to a much more expensive 65" 4k set!

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I had Sony TVs since 2010, yes they are great at upscaling and motion handling, but, comparing with the C6, the later is not that horrible, at least not my unit. Don't know why there are some users that think that the motion is worse that Samsung (which is not great, with plenty of judder and artefacts) and some say it is good.

The upscaling is good. With crappy content even the Sony couldn't do miracles. You can't have pristine PQ from crap source. The Digital TV PQ in my country is OK, so the C6 gives me a good upscale, some channels can look very good. So it depends allot on that.

Regarding the Sonys, from what I know de X850D has an IPS panel, that is why the blacks are not that good. The X930D is VA. I wanted to go for the 55X930D too, but here it was more expensive than the 55C6.

The only issues I have with my OLED is some small uniformity. I'll return it just because I'm a perfectionist, especially in this price range, but all my friends that got to see it couldn't even see these issues and they where blown away by the PQ. Yes, the OLED brings out more of the content issues, but at the same time it can shine with at least good quality content.

Right now I can say that I had more issues with the Sony TVs than with the LG OLED. Starting with bleading, clouding, color tint on the sides of the panel/vignetting, as Sony started using AU Optronics panels, which from my experience, with both TVs and monitors, are crap. The Samsung-Sony VA panels where better.
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post #9996 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glangford View Post
I've been away from this thread for a while, and yesterday read a bunch of comments about color saturation and basic settings. I spent about an hour a couple of days ago with a spears and munsil disc fine tuning contrast, brightness and color. You have to cycle through them as they are not totally independent of each other. Here is my result.

Isf dark
Oled light 40
Contrast 82
Brightness 53
Color 50 (Default)
Tint default
Gamma bt1886

Contrast came out to 84 initially, then when I looked at the clipping pattern (spears and munsil 1st edition) I decided the red and blue squares could stand to have contrast reduced a couple of notches more, so I ended up at 82. I then cycled back through the contrast test pattern, pluge low and high and then color again.

I'm a bit confused about many recent posts saying they needed color lower than 50. With the spears and munsil color pattern and using the blue only channel, 50 is just about right. A click or two lower and the difference in brightness between the blue and white bars is very apparent. click it back up to 50 and the brightness matches. Now you can go up even more and it takes to about 55 or a bit more for the brightness of those bars to not seem equal, but that would over do it. 50 is the lowest setting that shows an equal brightness in blue an white bars. All in all I'm genuinely pleased. I may crush blacks slightly, but not by much. I could mess with the luminance settings, but I'm not sure I want to do that. I had read somewhere earlier in the thread to reduce green at 5 IRE, is that correct? If so I may give it a try.

As far as real content. I don't notice any over saturation in colors on DVD, bluray, or 4k bluray, playing from my oppo. On cable, that's a different story. I do see a few channels that seem oversaturated, but for the most part I'm pleased with the time spent with the spears an munsil disc.

I spent the first month going nuts over the black crush and then I realized that I'd be happier if I just adjust according to what I'm seeing. In some content I can go with brightness as low as 51 and in others I jack it up to 55. It really important for me personally to see all the detail. I came off a Panasonic plasma and at 55 brightness I loose absolute black but the crazy thing is that its still better than any LCD or plasma out there in terms of contrast and black level so I don't let it bother me.
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post #9997 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 06:43 AM
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Anyone know if there is any "hidden" IR codes to do otherwise complex tasks like setting the audio output to optical (then later back to internal)? I have successfully produced a Harmony remote command sequence to set the output to optical and bring up the main webos screen to run apps, but it looks ridiculous when it runs, and also takes a while.
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post #9998 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by I WANT MORE View Post
I have a f8500 and vt50.
Have had a b6 for almost 2 weeks.
I have no idea what anyone is talking about relative to motion issues.
I have Trumotion and Real Cinema OFF.
I have used Amazon, Netflix and Vudu via the Sammy 4k player as well as 4k discs and regular blurays, Directv, Cable, Antennae, and have experienced NO motion issues whatsoever.
If you don't perceive 3:2 pulldown judder, then the more subtle 24fps motion judder will certainly be imperceptible to you, and the 2016 OLEDs pretty much perfect for you. Lucky!

I've pursued judder-free film ever since a PC video card that de-juddered DVD movies to 72hz came out in the early 2000's, for my CRT projector. To be clear, Real Cinema smooths pulldown judder fine, the people complaining about motion problems here are those who prefer - or have gotten used to - smooth interpolated motion.
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post #9999 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Slone View Post
To be clear, Real Cinema smooths pulldown judder fine, the people complaining about motion problems here are those who prefer - or have gotten used to - smooth interpolated motion.
I was one of those people, and I used the Interpolation on Sony to smooth out the picture (not soap opera effect level), but on the LG I don't feel the need for that. Maybe it is due to the low pixel response of the OLED? What I have now is pretty close to what I would get from the Sony motion processing.
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post #10000 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 07:16 AM
 
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Quick question on color temperature. Does the selection affect your white balance calibration?

For example if you calibrate 2 pt with warm 2 and then decide to run warm 1, do you need to recalibrate?


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Yes

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post #10001 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 07:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by leo2498 View Post
Thanks for your input, I wondering how those guys with trumotion disable could watch anything with studying scene that really drive me crazy. I did the trumotion in user 0-0 and not work for me, I disable it during to watch movies and it was a nightmare. it's possible my processor is faulty?
5/10 for me

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post #10002 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 07:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Test Ickles View Post
Can only report on what I see. Too much 5% luminance affects the picture in a negative way. Just got my X-Rite i1Display Pro so I will be calibrating soon.
Too much of anything affects the picture in a negative way...what is your point??

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post #10003 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 07:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by glangford View Post
I've been away from this thread for a while, and yesterday read a bunch of comments about color saturation and basic settings. I spent about an hour a couple of days ago with a spears and munsil disc fine tuning contrast, brightness and color. You have to cycle through them as they are not totally independent of each other. Here is my result.

Isf dark
Oled light 40
Contrast 82
Brightness 53
Color 50 (Default)
Tint default
Gamma bt1886

Contrast came out to 84 initially, then when I looked at the clipping pattern (spears and munsil 1st edition) I decided the red and blue squares could stand to have contrast reduced a couple of notches more, so I ended up at 82. I then cycled back through the contrast test pattern, pluge low and high and then color again.

I'm a bit confused about many recent posts saying they needed color lower than 50. With the spears and munsil color pattern and using the blue only channel, 50 is just about right. A click or two lower and the difference in brightness between the blue and white bars is very apparent. click it back up to 50 and the brightness matches. Now you can go up even more and it takes to about 55 or a bit more for the brightness of those bars to not seem equal, but that would over do it. 50 is the lowest setting that shows an equal brightness in blue an white bars. All in all I'm genuinely pleased. I may crush blacks slightly, but not by much. I could mess with the luminance settings, but I'm not sure I want to do that. I had read somewhere earlier in the thread to reduce green at 5 IRE, is that correct? If so I may give it a try.

As far as real content. I don't notice any over saturation in colors on DVD, bluray, or 4k bluray, playing from my oppo. On cable, that's a different story. I do see a few channels that seem oversaturated, but for the most part I'm pleased with the time spent with the spears an munsil disc.
Over saturation of skin tones is obvious on my panel at 50. 47 looks more natural

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post #10004 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 07:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Do not reduce green at 5% lol If you want to try anything, you reduce it a couple of clicks at 30% and see if you see any change. If not, best to leave it at the default settings until you calibrate the set. You did the correct process with the S&M disk. When it comes to saturation, it's a slippery slope because it can be caused by your set top box, DVD player, etc, sending out an over saturated signal or a set that's out of calibration. Also, a lot cable channels are all over the place on what they are transmitting. Over or under saturation can be fixed by a proper calibration because if the grayscale balance or the CMS is off, you will also get these problems. I've seen a lot of B's and C's and most of the time they are pretty good out of the box but there are some sets that are not and need to be calibrated to line it back up to get a perfect picture. If you are not going to calibrate, then there are the color and tint controls to work with. What I've learned that in addition to the "panel lottery" there is also a "calibration lottery"..
On mine, lowering green to - 8 in Low and High 2- pt system works great

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post #10005 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 07:30 AM
 
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Saturation seems very source dependent. Some channels on Time Warner looked overly saturated, but it varies. I watched a couple of blurays so far, and The Man in the High Castle the other night, and color looked great on those, so I think I'm good at 50. This setting looked ok with the blue filter and pattern on the AVS disc. If anything, I maybe could've increased it a few clicks according to that.

I don't think lowering green would be a good idea. Isn't that going to decrease luminance and increase gamma at that point. Most people are decreasing gamma at the low end to increase shadows.
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Last edited by milehighou; 12-28-2016 at 07:33 AM.
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post #10006 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 07:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mark Slone View Post
If you don't perceive 3:2 pulldown judder, then the more subtle 24fps motion judder will certainly be imperceptible to you, and the 2016 OLEDs pretty much perfect for you. Lucky!

I've pursued judder-free film ever since a PC video card that de-juddered DVD movies to 72hz came out in the early 2000's, for my CRT projector. To be clear, Real Cinema smooths pulldown judder fine, the people complaining about motion problems here are those who prefer - or have gotten used to - smooth interpolated motion.
So Real Cinema should be left on, right? It's greyed out a lot of times on mine anyway. Isn't 3:2 pulldown judder the "bad" variety of judder? I think I've experienced that before, and didn't like it. OTOH, 24p judder is the "good" kind, and it's what gives films that signature look? I've always been a bit confused about this.
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post #10007 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Can we not turn this into a 930D review thread? Sorry but this stuff doesn't belong in an owners thread. Lots of other places to discuss. Also stating that the same thing 100s of times in multiple threads isn't going to change anything. If a set doesn't meet your needs it's pretty simple return it. Let the rest of us enjoy our sets in peace.
I have to disagree, a few posts from an OLED owner's experience moving to a high end LCD would interest me greatly. If we can tolerate hundreds of posts from owners who don't bother to take their receiver out of the loop to troubleshoot, surely this shouldn't be an issue?

Enjoying your sets in peace is very simple, don't read AVS forums!
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post #10008 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rockycandy View Post
Over saturation of skin tones is obvious on my panel at 50. 47 looks more natural

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Not all panels have over saturation with color at 50 but some tv channels and movies have different color pallet.

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post #10009 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by milehighou View Post
So Real Cinema should be left on, right? It's greyed out a lot of times on mine anyway. Isn't 3:2 pulldown judder the "bad" variety of judder? I think I've experienced that before, and didn't like it. OTOH, 24p judder is the "good" kind, and it's what gives films that signature look? I've always been a bit confused about this.
It's greyed out for 60hz sources, like my Apple TV. I don't believe you can remove 3:2 pulldown from that with Real Cinema, you have to use De-Judder.

I think your description of the two types of judder is essentially correct. Could probably use a different term for 24p judder.
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post #10010 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 07:54 AM
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I would not touch green in the 2 point without a meter because green in 2 points will affect gamma.

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post #10011 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Slone View Post
I have to disagree, a few posts from an OLED owner's experience moving to a high end LCD would interest me greatly. If we can tolerate hundreds of posts from owners who don't bother to take their receiver out of the loop to troubleshoot, surely this shouldn't be an issue?

Enjoying your sets in peace is very simple, don't read AVS forums!
Sorry but this is an owner's thread, there are multiple Oled vs LCD threads to compare to your hearts content. If it continues I will just get the mods involved. The format here is pretty established and it works well.



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post #10012 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by rockycandy View Post
Over saturation of skin tones is obvious on my panel at 50. 47 looks more natural

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You are moving in the right general direction

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post #10013 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 08:10 AM
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It's greyed out for 60hz sources, like my Apple TV. I don't believe you can remove 3:2 pulldown from that with Real Cinema, you have to use De-Judder.

I think your description of the two types of judder is essentially correct. Could probably use a different term for 24p judder.
I think that I've found that even besides "normal" judder, the set also has a hard time smoothing things that just aren't recorded or presented very well. For example, I don't know if the issue is with the movie itself or just the Verizon FIOS presentation of the movie, but that panning shot of the "Common area" in "10 Cloverfield lane" (around 22 minutes in) is absolutely, crazy horrendous! Regardless of what is causing the horribly "jerky" panning issue, I expect a TV to be able to smooth it out if the end-user wants it to - and this is a perfect, super-obvious example of where my B6 falls down. It order to make it as almost as smooth as it is on my old Vizio 1080p set, I have to put de-judder up to 6 at least - but like I said, having de-judder that high causes really bad issues with other motion - like when someone turns their head quickly, it leaves lines/artifacts behind.

So again, I'm not sure if all of these motion issues are truly "judder" in the technical sense - but I still expect the TV to be able to smooth them, regardless of the cause (again, if the user wants that). I *love* super-smooth motion - it's just so much more enjoyable/less distracting/natural to me.

I would love for someone else to try playing that scene to demonstrate what I'm seeing. Interestingly, when I try to record it with my inexpensive phone, the phone smooths it out!! :-)

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post #10014 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 08:10 AM
 
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I have to disagree, a few posts from an OLED owner's experience moving to a high end LCD would interest me greatly. If we can tolerate hundreds of posts from owners who don't bother to take their receiver out of the loop to troubleshoot, surely this shouldn't be an issue?

Enjoying your sets in peace is very simple, don't read AVS forums!
I would be interested to see how something like the $5K Z9D compares to OLED, but I don't think I could ever go back. I don't care that an LCD can get bright enough to burn holes through my retinas, and even if they have a few thousand dimming zones, the LG has 8.4 million
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post #10015 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
You are moving in the right general direction

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so you have color lower then 47 then.

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post #10016 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 08:20 AM
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How come the color temperature doesn't work at Netflix? Anybody else has this problem.

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post #10017 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 08:20 AM
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so you have color lower then 47 then.
It's less than the default.

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post #10018 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 08:22 AM
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I would be interested to see how something like the $5K Z9D compares to OLED, but I don't think I could ever go back. I don't care that an LCD can get bright enough to burn holes through my retinas, and even if they have a few thousand dimming zones, the LG has 8.4 million
Believe me there are multiple threads comparing those two just do a search It was a very hot topic here a few months back.

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post #10019 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 08:24 AM
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What I posted was *far* from a Sony x930d review! I was simply making a point about the LG B6 (that I *do* own) by comparing it to another TV - and to show that it wasn't only me coming to that same conclusion. People compare their OLED sets to other sets all of the time in this thread - I've seen people comparing their OLED sets to plasma sets constantly - and as long as the posts are "pro" OLED, nobody minds - as soon as a "con" is talked about - some people get their panties all up in a twist. OH NO, god forbid we talk about a "con" of the set we own!! <sigh>

Its important to discuss/report the bad about these sets just as much as it is to discuss/report the good. The same people that are complaining about our motion issue related posts would be perfectly happy if we were repeatedly talking about how great the TV is. Give me a break... If you don't like what we're discussing, then ignore the posts and move on. But these posts most certainly ARE appropriate for this thread. We're owners talking about our sets - both the good and the bad!

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post #10020 of 28182 Old 12-28-2016, 08:41 AM
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What I posted was *far* from a Sony x930d review! I was simply making a point about the LG B6 (that I *do* own) by comparing it to another TV - and to show that it wasn't only me coming to that same conclusion. People compare their OLED sets to other sets all of the time in this thread - I've seen people comparing their OLED sets to plasma sets constantly - and as long as the posts are "pro" OLED, nobody minds - as soon as a "con" is talked about - some people get their panties all up in a twist. OH NO, god forbid we talk about a "con" of the set we own!!

Its important to discuss/report the bad about these sets just as much as it is to discuss/report the good. The same people that are complaining about our motion issue related posts would be perfectly happy if we were repeatedly talking about how great the TV is. Give me a break... If you don't like what we're discussing, then ignore the posts and move on. But these posts most certainly ARE appropriate for this thread. We're owners talking about our sets - both the good and the bad!

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And here is your personal take based on multiple posts in multiple threads.

Perfect black don't care, don't care about contrast ratio, don't see the benefits of 4k , Dolby Vision or HDR. Color saturation don't care, viewing angles don't care. "I just want a TV I can watch Cops on". Why in the world would you buy a B6 ? The only thing you seem to care about is motion. 2 months of this crap I am hoping you return your Oled soon.

At some point it just becomes attention seeking and "woe is me". Exercise your rights as a consumer and return it.

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Last edited by chunon; 12-28-2016 at 08:45 AM.
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