2016 LG C6-B6 owners thread - Page 750 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22471 of 28113 Old 09-19-2017, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by richlife View Post
Ok, now I have to add my bit to this discussion. I just went back a week to the first post here about the "black glow" and read forward. The discussion has been interesting (or somewhat interesting), but for the most part I'm not seeing a clear reason that most people (except those of the "if LG claims perfect black level then they MUST provide perfect black level" ilk) would be concerned about any "black glow". It happens that a few days ago my B6 updated to the latest FW automatically. I've been looking for any "black glow" issues in normal content but have seen no reason at all to be concerned. While I can view in pretty damn dark conditions, I don't view in a dead black room. And I'm not a gamer, so "don't care".



Now the real reason for this post -- I also noted that some have said the 05.30.03 firmware has included an "unannounced" and therefore "unofficial" upgrade for HLG. Today I downloaded that HLG demo that @sechev00 and others provided ( http://4kmedia.org/lg-cymatic-jazz-hdr-hlg-uhd-4k-demo/ ) and was absolutely blown away! I have numerous HDR UHDs (including Deadpool and other so-called "reference" discs) and I have the DV demos, and I have never seen an HDR level as outstanding as this jazz demo. (I have yet to see a DV UHD, so no comparison on that yet available.) The depth of color, the vast array of color, and the varying light intensities have never been displayed in such spectacular splendor! It's difficult to point to particular images since this quality is on display throughout the demo, but I especially noted the effects in the splashing bubbles and the flickering flames. But even those single-color paint splashes appear with such multiple tone and luminance variations that they were dazzling and three dimensional. It is simply difficult to describe. This is what HDR is supposed to be. IMO, it's is worth getting the FW update just to be able to view and show this demo regardless of any supposed "black glow".



Keep in mind that this was viewed in a bright, sunlit room. I first watched the demo from my OPPO which did NOT provide the HLG output. Then I changed to the USB on the LGB6. The "HLG HDR" bubble popped up in the upper right corner and the change was immediately noticeable -- did not require an A/B to see it. Even when I called my wife (who just don't care) in to see the demo, she immediately exclaimed over how beautiful the image was and could see those amazing variations. To use the word "kalaidescope" in this description would be a disservice to HLG. I always thought that HLG would somehow be a lesser quality of HDR, but this certainly is NOT lesser. Why do I care since there is no broadcast HDR service in the US? Because this HLG demo is worth having no matter what and because we have a technologically leading-edge TV station in our area that will probably be one of the first to provide HLG broadcasts -- even if it takes a few more years.



So YMMV, but for MY B6 panel and MY satisfaction, the 05.30.03 FW update is well worthwhile. And this HLG demo is now top of my list to show off my system. (That includes the sound system -- even without Atmos/DTS:X, the audio is marvelous and I'm not even a great fan of jazz!)


My thoughts exactly! Well said!
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post #22472 of 28113 Old 09-19-2017, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jayraysaiz View Post
Has any one had any feed back from LG on a possible FW fix?
I have received a response from my email to them, but at this point they have basically just entered a “VOC ticket” and asked for more contact information. I implore everyone to do the same. The more they hear about this, the sooner we may get a solution.
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post #22473 of 28113 Old 09-19-2017, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Viking 29 View Post
It seems like a complicated process and I'm pretty savvy on this stuff. I guess if I have to I can try it eventually.
Yeah. I'm pretty sure I could do it with the instructions I have read, but I'm actually kind of in the camp of people who just aren't seeing this glow, at least not yet. So it isn't worth the risk of trying for me yet. I'll be able to test my set more this weekend and if I find anything obvious then I will consider going through with the downgrade, or just wait for another LG update. I do believe the people who are saying they lost their "infinite black", but the severity/obviousness seems to be panel specific at this point. I reserve the right to change my opinion

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post #22474 of 28113 Old 09-19-2017, 05:05 PM
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When it comes to black/brightness levels, there has never been much panel to panel variation. Out of the box I'm sure you'll find the exact brightness number needed for pure black is exactly the same for all units. The variation is in the settings used between panels as many settings impact brightness/black levels.


If after calibration you really can see a glow in a fade to black or credit roll, then that's an unacceptable update. So far the people that have the equipment to do calibrations have only said/implied that the glow is imperceptible during fade to blacks and credit rolls given the amount of time our eyes need to adjust from little light on screen to none. Consider the pause symbol that was enough to take away perfect dark vision for dlj....pause symbols are not very big. Even the near black charts one uses for calibration would then have too much light on the screen to see 16 as anything other than perfect black.


When I next break out my equipment I'll perform the update since it sounds like I will need to redo the grayscale anyway.

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post #22475 of 28113 Old 09-19-2017, 09:11 PM
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Holy ****, can anyone please tell me how I go back to the firmware the B6 was using before the new update?

While I haven't had any issues with black levels yet, this new update has completely butchered 'Sicario' in HDR for me. There's banding all over this film, especially when the FBI vehicle raids the front of the house during the opening raid sequence. The amount of banding I see in the sky was never, EVER, there before.

LG should be ashamed of themselves for rolling out this sorry ass excuse for an update.

Please tell me there's a way I can go back to the 4.20 firmware.
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post #22476 of 28113 Old 09-19-2017, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by TetraVaal View Post
Holy ****, can anyone please tell me how I go back to the firmware the B6 was using before the new update?

While I haven't had any issues with black levels yet, this new update has completely butchered 'Sicario' in HDR for me. There's banding all over this film, especially when the FBI vehicle raids the front of the house during the opening raid sequence. The amount of banding I see in the sky was never, EVER, there before.

LG should be ashamed of themselves for rolling out this sorry ass excuse for an update.

Please tell me there's a way I can go back to the 4.20 firmware.
Just look a few pages back. There is a link to the page to do it

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post #22477 of 28113 Old 09-19-2017, 09:32 PM
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Never mind. The issue is with the recent OPPO update.
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post #22478 of 28113 Old 09-19-2017, 10:03 PM
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Does someone has a format which people can use for sending the request to LG about the loss of blacks on the new B6 firmware update?

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post #22479 of 28113 Old 09-19-2017, 11:42 PM
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I told LG about the glowing blacks and you only get a weird response. First they want you to know that you have no idea how this displays work, then when you can show some knowledge they send you completely bullsh** answers, in my case they sent me a guide for HDR-gaming and dynamic contrast. Thath has absolutely nothing to do with the glowing blacks.

AND NO, not only completely black patterns are affected. You should know that contrast suffers if black is not perfect anymore. Contrast is calculated peak-brightness:black-level, so with perfect blacks you have infinite contrast (lets say 120cd/m² : 0 = ~). If your black is raised you lose your perfect contrast (120cd/m : 0,0005cd/m² = 240000:1). While this number is still impressive you dont have the infinite contrast anymore. Lets take a low APL scene and watch it with perfect blacks, then raise your brightness till the blacks are not perfect anymore (1-2 clicks, depends if your brightness setting was correct before) - you can immediately see that the picture loses contrast and DEPTH. And that is the bigger problem in my case... Some users said that the near black handling is better with better shadow detail - of course it is, the black level is too high so you see more details. Take a panel with the 04.xx.xx FW and perfect blacks, raise brightness till blacks arent perfect anymore and you have exactly the same near black handling.

Guys dont get me wrong, if you dont see this issue or if you see it but it does not bother you: fine, nobody tells you that you are wrong, we are perfectly fine with it
BUT LG has to know that this FW IS faulty, if we dont say anything they can do whatever they want. What is next? Let us limit peak brightness to 80cd/m²? Let us disable the CMS so they cannot calibrate them anymore?
This examples are exaggerated I know But you paid A LOT of money for this TV´s and I am sure that 99% of the users here bought them for the perfect blacks and contrast. And wit this FW the selling-arguments are not true anymore.

Enough said, this post is getting too long
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post #22480 of 28113 Old 09-19-2017, 11:53 PM
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Yep that's what LG support does. If they can't answer your question they'll give you some bull**** answer instead of forwarding it to some engineer/technician.
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post #22481 of 28113 Old 09-19-2017, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by dlj11 View Post
I told LG about the glowing blacks and you only get a weird response. First they want you to know that you have no idea how this displays work, then when you can show some knowledge they send you completely bullsh** answers, in my case they sent me a guide for HDR-gaming and dynamic contrast. Thath has absolutely nothing to do with the glowing blacks.

AND NO, not only completely black patterns are affected. You should know that contrast suffers if black is not perfect anymore. Contrast is calculated peak-brightness:black-level, so with perfect blacks you have infinite contrast (lets say 120cd/m² : 0 = ~). If your black is raised you lose your perfect contrast (120cd/m : 0,0005cd/m² = 240000:1). While this number is still impressive you dont have the infinite contrast anymore. Lets take a low APL scene and watch it with perfect blacks, then raise your brightness till the blacks are not perfect anymore (1-2 clicks, depends if your brightness setting was correct before) - you can immediately see that the picture loses contrast and DEPTH. And that is the bigger problem in my case... Some users said that the near black handling is better with better shadow detail - of course it is, the black level is too high so you see more details. Take a panel with the 04.xx.xx FW and perfect blacks, raise brightness till blacks arent perfect anymore and you have exactly the same near black handling.

Guys dont get me wrong, if you dont see this issue or if you see it but it does not bother you: fine, nobody tells you that you are wrong, we are perfectly fine with it
BUT LG has to know that this FW IS faulty, if we dont say anything they can do whatever they want. What is next? Let us limit peak brightness to 80cd/m²? Let us disable the CMS so they cannot calibrate them anymore?
This examples are exaggerated I know But you paid A LOT of money for this TV´s and I am sure that 99% of the users here bought them for the perfect blacks and contrast. And wit this FW the selling-arguments are not true anymore.

Enough said, this post is getting too long
While I agree with you that LG should be able to allow us to achieve perfect black on our sets and should release a FW fix, I think what you described you're seeing with low APL scenes is not the difference at 0 IRE between old and new FW. I believe the difference that you're seeing is the raised luminance levels between 0 and 4 IRE, but these levels are probably now closer to where they should have been from the get-go. I hope LG can keep the raised near blacks while still giving us a true 0 IRE black in a future FW update.

As far as the infinite contrast goes, that's all good in theory and math, but doesn't necessarily translate well in perceivable contrast in real-world viewing situations. I doubt you can tell the difference between 0 black and 0.0005 black with any real world content, even in a completely dark room.

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post #22482 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 12:25 AM
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Oh yes I can see the difference, I calibrate displays for years so I have some experienced eyes
You will see it also, try it with a low APL-scene. The higher the APL the less you can see the difference...

Anyway, the most important thing is that everybody should contact LG about this FW-problem.
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post #22483 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 04:41 AM
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Oh yes I can see the difference, I calibrate displays for years so I have some experienced eyes
You will see it also, try it with a low APL-scene. The higher the APL the less you can see the difference...

Anyway, the most important thing is that everybody should contact LG about this FW-problem.
This is what needs to happen, but people seem to be in denial or more interested in the ability to play an HLG tech demo while having sacrificed the integrity of the TV’s picture.
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post #22484 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 05:06 AM
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Also, Dolby Vision mode can't be calibrated on the 2016 sets so he recommended that I watch Netflix on the app in my Sony X-800 player (which does not support DV) instead of the built-in LG WebOS app. I can still get the HDR10 component that way which looks fine to me.
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What does this mean? It has all the same calibration settings that regular HDR10 does...by making small adjustments I was able to get much improved picture quality on mine.
From the 2016 LG OLED calibration thread:

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A "Golden Reference" file is required to calibrate DV, that file doesn't exist for LG oled right now.
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Correct, Dolby Golden Reference file with gamut targets will be required only for Dolby Vision calibration but current firmware disables any White Balance/CMS controls in Dolby Vision mode, even having the Golden Reference file, it will not help to do anything.
According to Chad B, this has not changed.
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post #22485 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 05:14 AM
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Oh yes I can see the difference, I calibrate displays for years so I have some experienced eyes
You will see it also, try it with a low APL-scene. The higher the APL the less you can see the difference...

Anyway, the most important thing is that everybody should contact LG about this FW-problem.
This is what needs to happen, but people seem to be in denial or more interested in the ability to play an HLG tech demo while having sacrificed the integrity of the TV?s picture.
Bingo! The HLG demo was nice but not at the expense of perfect blacks. I have contacted lg numerous times but I'm not going to hold my by breath. I guess I'll have to become a mad scientist to revert the firmware back.
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post #22486 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 07:30 AM
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I'm gonna wait at least a month before I panic as I don't trust myself doing any sort of downgrade on firmware. This stinks but it's not worth bricking my set. People may have their gripes with LG but so far, it's seems like they've been willing to address the big issues.
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post #22487 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 08:10 AM
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I'm gonna wait at least a month before I panic as I don't trust myself doing any sort of downgrade on firmware.
Exactly, you could upgrade that firmware anytime.....
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post #22488 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 08:12 AM
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I'm gonna wait at least a month before I panic as I don't trust myself doing any sort of downgrade on firmware. This stinks but it's not worth bricking my set. People may have their gripes with LG but so far, it's seems like they've been willing to address the big issues.
My experience with LG and Firmware updates in the past has been pretty good. There was one that was FUBAR on my 65UB9500 and within a month they sent out a fix. Every LG Smart TV I've owned since 2012 seems to get supported at least 2 years out.
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post #22489 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 08:56 AM
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But remember, you really can only see it in a pitch black room with a 0IRE pattern, no other content should be on the display. Even a pause-icon is too much to see the display glow in the dark. Try it for yourself, will be pretty interesting to hear your impressions...
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Yes please, but you really need a pitch black room and a completely black pattern without any content on it. And let your eyes adopt to the black room, if you have raised blacks you should see it...
I think it is only our EU-FW that makes trouble... I hope it for you guys
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Oh yes I can see the difference, I calibrate displays for years so I have some experienced eyes
You will see it also, try it with a low APL-scene. The higher the APL the less you can see the difference...

Anyway, the most important thing is that everybody should contact LG about this FW-problem.

Anyone else notice the inconsistencies here?


As for me, I think it would be smart to wait for someone who actually knows what they are talking about with experience out in the field with these before updating.
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post #22490 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 09:13 AM
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Please read again carefully. You can see the glow in a pitch black room with a 100% black pattern.
On LOW-APL scenes you dont see the black glow, you see the loss of contrast and depth to the picture. Please read before posting BS like that, and yes I know what I do. I calibrate displays for years and surely can say that I know how to do my work.

Maybe you dont know what APL means, or 100% pattern or anything like that, feel free to ask mate. This is a forum for stuff like that...
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post #22491 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 09:19 AM
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Please read again carefully. You can see the glow in a pitch black room with a 100% black pattern.
On LOW-APL scenes you dont see the black glow, you see the loss of contrast and depth to the picture. Please read before posting BS like that, and yes I know what I do. I calibrate displays for years and surely can say that I know how to do my work.

Maybe you dont know what APL means, or 100% pattern or anything like that, feel free to ask mate. This is a forum for stuff like that...
If your eyes can't tell if black is brighter than perfect black, then no your eyes can't feel the loss in contrast. That loss in contrast can only be felt if your eyes can tell the difference between perfect black and the black displayed on screen.

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post #22492 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 09:20 AM
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When it comes to black/brightness levels, there has never been much panel to panel variation. Out of the box I'm sure you'll find the exact brightness number needed for pure black is exactly the same for all units. The variation is in the settings used between panels as many settings impact brightness/black levels.


If after calibration you really can see a glow in a fade to black or credit roll, then that's an unacceptable update. So far the people that have the equipment to do calibrations have only said/implied that the glow is imperceptible during fade to blacks and credit rolls given the amount of time our eyes need to adjust from little light on screen to none. Consider the pause symbol that was enough to take away perfect dark vision for dlj....pause symbols are not very big. Even the near black charts one uses for calibration would then have too much light on the screen to see 16 as anything other than perfect black.


When I next break out my equipment I'll perform the update since it sounds like I will need to redo the grayscale anyway.
My set is calibrated (using HCFR & AVS), and I still see the glow on transitions and credits, so it's definitely not just an issue with uncalibrated sets. At least on my set, using previous firmwares, you could actually raise the brightness one notch from the default (50 to 51) to help ease some of the black crush without raising the absolute MLL. I couldn't get rid of black crush entirely without introducing some glow (17-19 were crushed even at 51, and 0 IRE slides started glowing at 52), but I was happy enough to settle at 51 and let near-blacks be crushed slightly in exchange for 0 cd/m2 pure black.

Notably, it seems like LG was being extra careful to ensure that the default settings preserved perfect blacks, even at the expense of a crushing near-blacks further up the chain, so that users who chose the default ISF settings and didn't bother calibrating would experience true OLED blacks. Now, the glow persists even if you drop all brightness-related settings to zero, so I don't think there's any reason to treat this as a user-by-user setting related issue.
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post #22493 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
When it comes to black/brightness levels, there has never been much panel to panel variation. Out of the box I'm sure you'll find the exact brightness number needed for pure black is exactly the same for all units. The variation is in the settings used between panels as many settings impact brightness/black levels.


If after calibration you really can see a glow in a fade to black or credit roll, then that's an unacceptable update. So far the people that have the equipment to do calibrations have only said/implied that the glow is imperceptible during fade to blacks and credit rolls given the amount of time our eyes need to adjust from little light on screen to none. Consider the pause symbol that was enough to take away perfect dark vision for dlj....pause symbols are not very big. Even the near black charts one uses for calibration would then have too much light on the screen to see 16 as anything other than perfect black.


When I next break out my equipment I'll perform the update since it sounds like I will need to redo the grayscale anyway.
My set is calibrated (using HCFR & AVS), and I still see the glow on transitions and credits, so it's definitely not just an issue with uncalibrated sets. At least on my set, using previous firmwares, you could actually raise the brightness one notch from the default (50 to 51) to help ease some of the black crush without raising the absolute MLL. I couldn't get rid of black crush entirely without introducing some glow (17-19 were crushed even at 51, and 0 IRE slides started glowing at 52), but I was happy enough to settle at 51 and let near-blacks be crushed slightly in exchange for 0 cd/m2 pure black.

Notably, it seems like LG was being extra careful to ensure that the default settings preserved perfect blacks, even at the expense of a crushing near-blacks further up the chain, so that users who chose the default ISF settings and didn't bother calibrating would experience true OLED blacks. Now, the glow persists even if you drop all brightness-related settings to zero, so I don't think there's any reason to treat this as a user-by-user setting related issue.
Exactly!
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post #22494 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by dlj11 View Post
Please read again carefully. You can see the glow in a pitch black room with a 100% black pattern.
On LOW-APL scenes you dont see the black glow, you see the loss of contrast and depth to the picture. Please read before posting BS like that, and yes I know what I do. I calibrate displays for years and surely can say that I know how to do my work.

Maybe you dont know what APL means, or 100% pattern or anything like that, feel free to ask mate. This is a forum for stuff like that...
If your eyes can't tell if black is brighter than perfect black, then no your eyes can't feel the loss in contrast. That loss in contrast can only be felt if your eyes can tell the difference between perfect black and the black displayed on screen.

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Of course you can. Take a low apl-scene and raise brightness 1-2 clicks. You will see the difference immediately. Nobody said that the difference is night and day, the contrast is still miles better than any display before oled, even with elevated blacks. Even the best KUROs I calibrated were far away. I think people dont understand what I want to say, the fw is faulty and needs to be adressed.
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post #22495 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 09:41 AM
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My set is calibrated (using HCFR & AVS), and I still see the glow on transitions and credits, so it's definitely not just an issue with uncalibrated sets. At least on my set, using previous firmwares, you could actually raise the brightness one notch from the default (50 to 51) to help ease some of the black crush without raising the absolute MLL. I couldn't get rid of black crush entirely without introducing some glow (17-19 were crushed even at 51, and 0 IRE slides started glowing at 52), but I was happy enough to settle at 51 and let near-blacks be crushed slightly in exchange for 0 cd/m2 pure black.

Notably, it seems like LG was being extra careful to ensure that the default settings preserved perfect blacks, even at the expense of a crushing near-blacks further up the chain, so that users who chose the default ISF settings and didn't bother calibrating would experience true OLED blacks. Now, the glow persists even if you drop all brightness-related settings to zero, so I don't think there's any reason to treat this as a user-by-user setting related issue.

It seems that is still true today, you either get the crush or the glow. A lot seem to calibrate to eliminate the glow, I prefer to have slight crush at 17. If I could get 17 visible and have 16 imperceptibly glow during transitions and credit rolls then I would do that.




I wasn't treating any of this as user to user variation, in fact the opposite. There's not a variation, I was only mentioning that the observed differences from user to user would be because of setting variations and not panel variation. Someone who targets 2.2 vs 2.4 is going to see something different for example.
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post #22496 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by dlj11 View Post
Of course you can. Take a low apl-scene and raise brightness 1-2 clicks. You will see the difference immediately. Nobody said that the difference is night and day, the contrast is still miles better than any display before oled, even with elevated blacks. Even the best KUROs I calibrated were far away. I think people dont understand what I want to say, the fw is faulty and needs to be adressed.


If the 1-2 clicks can result in a visible difference to a pluge pattern, then yes you will notice a difference in the low apl scene. However if your brightness is already so low to be in the imperceptible territory and 1-2 clicks won't bring it perceptibly back into view then you won't see an difference on a low apl scene. morphinapg clearly understands this.
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post #22497 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 09:55 AM
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Just try it for yourself, I can only say that I can see it. I am very sensitive to this, maybe cause I do a lot of calibrations, I dont know. If you cannot see this its perfectly fine... ;-) like I said before, the most important thing is to make LG aware of the issues.
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post #22498 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 10:19 AM
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Now that someone has plainly come out and said they calibrated their set with a meter in the near black region and can still see raised blacks on fade to blacks and credit rolls, then that means a significantly raised black level. Sounds like a serious issue now, so I won't be trying anything anytime soon.
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post #22499 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 11:26 AM
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I see that some reviewers recommend changing the input icon to PC on the B6, but I can't quite get a handle on why. Does anyone know the advantages and disadvantages of changing the icon? (The TV isn't used for gaming or as a computer screen)
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post #22500 of 28113 Old 09-20-2017, 11:42 AM
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Is there a format or example of a mail I can use to send it to LG? I also would like to let them know my set is degraded after the update. English is not my main language.

Klipsch Reference Premiere: 4 x RP-280's, 1 x RP 450C and dual R-115W's
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LG OLED B6
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