First movie in 120fps HFR said to be "absolutely spectacular" - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 25Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 77 Old 05-06-2016, 08:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nathanddrews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,028
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 622 Post(s)
Liked: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by boe View Post
Actually they are pretty important. Unless HDMI quadruples its capabilities or SuperMHL becomes a standard on TVs, Receives, Pre Pros, media devices and video cards - it will suck you can't get the video from point A to point B.
HDMI has always been a technological turd, it's always amazed me that it ever became mainstream. Anyway, the key to making progress is to embrace DisplayPort 1.4 or DP-over-USB Type-C.

/rabble/rabble/rabble
NintendoManiac64 likes this.
nathanddrews is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 77 Old 05-06-2016, 09:04 AM
boe
AVS Forum Special Member
 
boe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,290
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1211 Post(s)
Liked: 546
Unfortunately DP 1.4 isn't embraced by most manufacturers although I wish it was - so it doesn't matter how much you or I embrace it. I'd be impressed if you could find 3 TVs with DP 1.3 in them. I think even DP 1.4 has a similar short cable run limitation as superMHL.
boe is offline  
post #63 of 77 Old 05-06-2016, 02:39 PM
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Maybe ⅓ of the way from here to there.
Posts: 10,026
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2589 Post(s)
Liked: 2312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnesus View Post
There is no way Cameron is dropping 3D. It's also not going down in cinemas, at least not in Europe, only in TVs - which is most likely temporary.
I wonder if the fact that US uses mostly Real3D (active 3D) while Europe mostly Dolby3D (passive 3D) is the reason for the difference.
RealD isn't an active system. It's employing a circularly polarized lens, but the screen image is pulsing L/R at 144Hz; the lens circular polarization is what keeps the correct image for the correct eye. RealD lenses can work with a passive TV. In a truly active system, the glasses pulse.
tgm1024 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #64 of 77 Old 05-06-2016, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 441
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 299 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post
These discussions are pointless.

Super Hi-Vision will be here soon. Technically it has been in demo form in Japan for quite a while.

8K 12-bit 120fps with 22.2 surround sound. (hopefully they will incorporate DTSX/Atmos)



BRING IT
Unfortunately, the industry does not work that way
each year an additional zero image quality
2014 -4K
2015 - 4k 10bit
2016 - 4k 10bit HDR
2017 - 4k 10bit HDR ( 120fps or 12 bit or HDR 4000 or REC 2020 )

the industry can not get to 8K, there is no such HDMI connection for 8K
cartel ( maybe ) ?
AND video card going to get 8K 30FPS 8BIT IN 2017
popyang45 is offline  
post #65 of 77 Old 05-08-2016, 07:11 AM
boe
AVS Forum Special Member
 
boe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,290
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1211 Post(s)
Liked: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post
HDMI has always been a technological turd, it's always amazed me that it ever became mainstream. Anyway, the key to making progress is to embrace DisplayPort 1.4 or DP-over-USB Type-C.

/rabble/rabble/rabble
Here is the first video card I know of with DP 1.4

Last edited by boe; 05-08-2016 at 07:49 AM.
boe is offline  
post #66 of 77 Old 05-08-2016, 07:17 AM
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Maybe ⅓ of the way from here to there.
Posts: 10,026
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2589 Post(s)
Liked: 2312
Quote:
Originally Posted by boe View Post
here is the first video card i know of with hdmi 1.4
hdmi?
tgm1024 is offline  
post #67 of 77 Old 05-08-2016, 07:30 AM
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2012 Post(s)
Liked: 1407
The thing that worries me about the NVidia 1080 / 1070 is they don't even mention HDR support anywhere on their press releases.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #68 of 77 Old 05-08-2016, 07:50 AM
boe
AVS Forum Special Member
 
boe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,290
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1211 Post(s)
Liked: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
hdmi?
WHoops - good catch I keep thinking we need to fix the HDMI standards - I changed it to DP 1.4 -thanks.
boe is offline  
post #69 of 77 Old 05-08-2016, 07:52 AM
boe
AVS Forum Special Member
 
boe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,290
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1211 Post(s)
Liked: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
The thing that worries me about the NVidia 1080 / 1070 is they don't even mention HDR support anywhere on their press releases.
If you skim through that insanely long video I posted the link for (one is at about 22 minutes in) - he does mention HDR a few times so I'm guessing it is part of the pascal feature set.
boe is offline  
post #70 of 77 Old 05-08-2016, 07:55 AM
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Maybe ⅓ of the way from here to there.
Posts: 10,026
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2589 Post(s)
Liked: 2312
Quote:
Originally Posted by boe View Post
WHoops - good catch I keep thinking we need to fix the HDMI standards - I changed it to DP 1.4 -thanks.
No prob man. I was just afraid I had entered some odd kind of causality morphing time warp for a second.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #71 of 77 Old 05-08-2016, 08:44 AM
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2012 Post(s)
Liked: 1407
I'm hesitant to buy NVidia again because I want to own an HDR-capable display with VRR and have the audio go through an AVR with Atmos decoding. Something which will never happen with DisplayPort.

I'll probably go AMD this time and wait for Freesync to take over the market and NVidia come to its senses. VR is something that definitely needs VRR IMO, no matter what, despite async timewarp in the Rift and similar reprojection tech, that only works for rotations not translations. It's not like your camera's view matrix never experiences translations.

I am intrigued about their multi-perspective 3D "render once", and wonder about how AMD's Liquid VR compares. I'd like to be able to buy two GPUs and have DX12 or Vulkan be able to automatically render both eyes simultaneously. Actually AFR could work for VR if the left and right eyes could accept their own unique HDMI / DP inputs.

The Vive has DisplayPort inputs, right? I didn't check at work, I'm working on the Rift right now mostly. I really hope some VR headset maker realizes that it's impossible to guarantee a stable 90hz framerate and stops doing image-based fudging and instead just shows new frames as soon as they are ready. Then it will be up to the game engine to dynamically alter its internal parameters to maintain as high a framerate as possible.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #72 of 77 Old 05-08-2016, 09:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Chronoptimist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
The thing that worries me about the NVidia 1080 / 1070 is they don't even mention HDR support anywhere on their press releases.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
I'm hesitant to buy NVidia again because I want to own an HDR-capable display with VRR and have the audio go through an AVR with Atmos decoding. Something which will never happen with DisplayPort.
At the same time, there's no support for Adaptive-Sync in any current television, and all that NVIDIA needs to do is release a driver update to support it.
Mobile G-Sync is built on top of Adaptive-Sync, just like FreeSync is. They just don't support it on the desktop.

Don't forget that AMD's latest GPUs only support HDMI 1.4 - they're really pushing active DP adapters instead of adding native support. I guess the licensing costs must be higher?
I wouldn't be surprised if their new cards lack HDMI 2.0 support too. It really seems like they want to remove the port from their GPUs altogether.

Speaking of display connections, it seems like VGA is finally dead with NVIDIA using a DVI-D port instead of a DVI-I port on their reference cards.
I'm sure that there will be non-reference designs with support (Gigabyte cards will for sure) but the writing is on the wall for it.
Hopefully OLED can get to the point that it's a suitable CRT replacement before the connector disappears altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
VR is something that definitely needs VRR IMO, no matter what, despite async timewarp in the Rift and similar reprojection tech, that only works for rotations not translations. It's not like your camera's view matrix never experiences translations.
Variable Refresh Rates are incompatible with low-persistence strobing in its current state, so you aren't going to see it used with VR.
It's theoretically possible to combine the two if we get some breakthrough that makes displays at least an order of magnitude brighter than they are today, but unlikely to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
I am intrigued about their multi-perspective 3D "render once", and wonder about how AMD's Liquid VR compares. I'd like to be able to buy two GPUs and have DX12 or Vulkan be able to automatically render both eyes simultaneously. Actually AFR could work for VR if the left and right eyes could accept their own unique HDMI / DP inputs.
There are so many problems with multi-GPU rendering that I'm not sure if it's even going to be a good solution for VR. Being able to render multiple viewports in a single pass on Pascal on a single high-end GPU seems like it's probably going to be a better solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
The Vive has DisplayPort inputs, right?
It's HDMI to the headset, though the breakout box can accept a DisplayPort connection.
Chronoptimist is offline  
post #73 of 77 Old 05-08-2016, 10:00 AM
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2012 Post(s)
Liked: 1407
Polaris supports HDMI 2.0a and HDR natively, as well as DP 1.3 (not 1.4 AFAIK).

Thanks for the update about the Nvidia HDR output, I missed that. I'll wait for reviews before deciding obviously. Especially the part about DP 1.4 which is really exciting.

DX12 allows explicit multi-GPU control so rendering the same scene twice with different view projections to each GPU isn't much harder / different than whatever they're doing to enable the automatic multi-view on a single GPU. But I'm more a fan of doing it all at the driver level, behind the scenes, without any additional developer effort. That's when I see SLI taking off again or at least becoming more viable (personally I don't think it's worth it for the price, even though I've implemented AFR SLI in several AAA titles so I know what I'm talking about, I want more framerate but not at the expense of an additional frame of latency).

Liquid VR enables multi-GPU stereo 3D in the driver, it's an obvious thing to do and I'm fairly sure NVidia will be enabling the same thing.

I have the creator of Liquid VR on my linked in and read an interview with her recently when she discussed how LiquidVR allows multi-GPU VR to lower latency instead of increase it, through one-eye-per-gpu rendering. And that's all done at the driver level, AFAIK.
NintendoManiac64 likes this.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #74 of 77 Old 05-08-2016, 10:43 AM
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2012 Post(s)
Liked: 1407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
Variable Refresh Rates are incompatible with low-persistence strobing in its current state, so you aren't going to see it used with VR. It's theoretically possible to combine the two if we get some breakthrough that makes displays at least an order of magnitude brighter than they are today, but unlikely to happen.
How is the current frame rate related to the image persistence and thus OLED peak brightness?

If your current framerate is 90hz (~11.1ms frame time), you show each frame 50% of the time, or for ~5.55 ms.

If your current framerate is 30hz (33.33 ms), you show each frame 50% of the time or for 16.66ms.
If your current framerate is 60hz (16.66 ms), you show each frame 50% of the time of for 8.33ms

The peak OLED brightness of a 50% strobed is 2X. That number doesn't depend on the current framerate, it's a fixed number with a unit in lumens. All that's necessary to do VRR + strobed is the ability to modulate the amount of time a signal is shown to the OLED. Are you saying they can't do that? I'm not an OLED engineer so I honestly don't know.

Then again, with PWM being fairly easily achieved for LED backlights, I'm still surprised they haven't sorted out ULMB + VRR yet.

ULMB of 50% or 10% frame time simply means the PWM frequency is determined by the peak refresh rate, not the lower refresh rates.

Put it this way, if you can strobe fast enough for a 90hz HMD, you can definitely strobe fast enough for a 60hz HMD, or 32hz, or 78hz, or whatever number in between. VRR is simply treating the HMD as if it has a different spec, from one frame to the next.

The "toughest" strobe time to handle is the highest refresh rate. I don't see any technical reason you couldn't combine ULMB or strobed OLED with VRR. I mean, with PWM I definitely don't. Not sure about OLED. You can definitely modulate the backlight of your LCD for 16ms this frame and for 8ms the one after.

With VRR you'd have to show each frame starting at the beginning of the frame duration as "ON" and for the latter part as "OFF", to both minimize input latency and to allow for a variable "ON" vs "OFF" time. If your framerate fluctuates wildly you should be able to apply an alpha smoothing filter in order to predict the current frame's duty cycle and avoid flickering.

Any local brightness variations occurring above 60hz should be smeared in your retina, for the same reason that FRC works.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #75 of 77 Old 05-08-2016, 10:47 AM
boe
AVS Forum Special Member
 
boe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,290
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1211 Post(s)
Liked: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
I'm hesitant to buy NVidia again because I want to own an HDR-capable display with VRR and have the audio go through an AVR with Atmos decoding. Something which will never happen with DisplayPort.
I'm not at all familiar with DP audio. I think it used to be that DP didn't have any audio. I'd like to get caught up on DP features as it is stunning how far behind the times HDMI is.
Is it an NVidia thing or a DP port thing that you think Atmos will be an option?
Why do you think AMD will have it?
boe is offline  
post #76 of 77 Old 05-08-2016, 12:56 PM
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Maybe ⅓ of the way from here to there.
Posts: 10,026
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2589 Post(s)
Liked: 2312
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
I'm hesitant to buy NVidia again because I want to own an HDR-capable display with VRR and have the audio go through an AVR with Atmos decoding. Something which will never happen with DisplayPort.
Well, FWIW and it's been a long time since I've been leaning on 3D so hard that this stuff really mattered to me so I can't report on this first hand, but whenever any of my gaming friends have switched away from nVidia they've said they've regretted it.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #77 of 77 Old 05-08-2016, 02:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
NintendoManiac64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 2,009
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1026 Post(s)
Liked: 456
DisplayPort has supported audio from the beginning, it's just that implementation and support of it is optional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
whenever any of my gaming friends have switched away from nVidia they've said they've regretted it.
You'll get these kinds of tales from either side - for example, I've never had drivers issues at all with AMD GPUs save for a single minor "bug" that can be worked-around simply via changing a setting while I've had had some much more serious driver issues with Nvidia in the past...

Heck I just came across a guy that sold his 7970GHz and bought a temporary GTX630 while waiting for Polaris and is now having issues in CS:GO that he never had before

Needless to say, your mileage may very.
tgm1024 likes this.
NintendoManiac64 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off