Value Electronics 2016 TV Shootout at CE Week - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I don't think there's any chance of that happening. More likely it would not come in second to the OLED, but dead last. Then he'd have to deal with a bunch of angry Vizio fanboys who would claim it wasn't fairly evaluated. Or that it was improperly setup / calibrated when the quirks (software bugs) of the set couldn't be worked around by someone who expects it to work in a logical normal fashion and hasn't bothered to read a 100+ page thread on the forum to know every trick to making it actually work.
I have not spent much time with this year's Sony but the 2016 LG and Samsung are both tremendous TVs . Indeed, with HDR content every time I saw the LG and Samsung side by side I marveled at how some scenes benefited from the LCD's added peak luminance and more nuanced shadow rendition, while others scenes benefited from the OLEDs awesomely deep blacks. In other words, which TV looked better depended on the content as opposed to one TV being obviously better than the other. It'll be very interesting to see if this continues to be the case at the shootout.

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post #92 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 10:19 AM
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The 940D has my vote. This thing is amazing.
I have not seen a KS9800, calibrated, in a dark room, however.
They need a best flat LCD and best curved LCD category!
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post #93 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I have not spent much time with this year's Sony but the 2016 LG and Samsung are both tremendous TVs . Indeed, with HDR content every time I saw the LG and Samsung side by side I marveled at how some scenes benefited from the LCD's added peak luminance and more nuanced shadow rendition, while others scenes benefited from the OLEDs awesomely deep blacks. In other words, which TV looked better depended on the content as opposed to one TV being obviously better than the other. It'll be very interesting to see if this continues to be the case at the shootout.
Are the OLEDs blacks better when viewing with lots of ambient light?

How about motion? The Sony is supposed to be really nice, but I haven't seen one yet where I live.
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post #94 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 12:23 PM
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post #95 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 12:28 PM
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Because basically no one is buying any of them, and that was the desired outcome. They got lots of people talking, got lots of great press out of it when they needed it most.

If a company wanted to prove their engineering prowess and prove to the world their ability to make a world class product instead of disposable 2nd or 3rd rate trash wouldn't they want to get every review they could? When Lamborghini or Ferrari build a halo supercar somehow all the car magazines / and major established websites / TV shows still manage to drive review it despite it being very expensive and sold in very low quantities. Vizio hasn't done any of that. Vizio supposedly made a world class product that buyers have to buy on faith. You can't read reviews of it, you can't see one in store, but it's "real".

It would be like Hyundai/Kia deciding to make and sell a supercar that claims to beat all the others with a 7 figure price tag with great specs that looks real nice at car shows, but they don't let anyone in the automotive press drive it or review it. Sure, your local dealer can sell you one and they're built to order, but is it a legitimate product anyone should seriously consider? Of course not, it's a marketing gimmick / publicity stunt. No sane person will plop down 7 figures to buy the "best" supercar from a company that has no credibility or reputation for making world class supercars that they would have to buy on faith.

The Reference series is the same thing. An unproven product from a company with no reputation or credentials for making a world class products that you can buy on faith (should you need your head examined).
There have been at least two reviews that I know of for the R series, reviewed.com and sound and vision (Tom Norton), and both came to the conclusion at the time it was the best LCD television they tested.

And I agree the P series would probably finish last and I think most Vizio enthusiasts would understand that. The point is how competitive would it be against the Sony and Samsung flagships. Given the reviews I think it would be competitive for much less money.

I have lots of boos for Vizio on how it handled the R series but lots of kudos for them with the P series - IMO a television (oops, I mean display) that stands tall against the competition with similar priced models.
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post #96 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 12:57 PM
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The question is do the Sony worth 2k more than the P series ?I don't think so.

Do the Samsung 78" worth 6k more than the P series? maybe 2k more but not 6k more.

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post #97 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
I have lots of boos for Vizio on how it handled the R series but lots of kudos for them with the P series - IMO a television (oops, I mean display) that stands tall against the competition with similar priced models.
I think it would get creamed in this comparison because it would not be compared to similarly priced models and the cop out of "for the money" won't save it since price isn't a factor in the scoring.
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post #98 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 01:18 PM
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Is very possible that the P series perform better in a dark environment than the Samsung ,Panasonic ,Sony and LG LCD's.


basically VE make the king of displays the display that perform better in a dark environment.

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post #99 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I think it would get creamed in this comparison because it would not be compared to similarly priced models and the cop out of "for the money" won't save it since price isn't a factor in the scoring.
Maybe. Tough to tell without an actual contest, though. I suspect there are some areas it will do very well, like controlling blooming and black levels, especially if they took advantage of its DV abilities. But, again, without an actual contest, its really just speculation. I'd also be happy with a "this TV sucks, I don't know why its even here" finding if that's the finding that was warranted, just so we would all know.
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post #100 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Vzio should forget about the R, it is bad news, and push P instead for the shootout.
My understanding is that Vizio wants the P in the shootout but VE does not. Various rationales and reasons have been given as to why the Reference (if it appears) is the Vizio that will be featured. And while I'm not willing to explicitly share behind-the-scenes communications, I can tell you that it's not Vizio that's choosing to put the Reference in this shootout and that it's obvious many members of this forum want to see the P series make an appearance. That is definitely a message that's been delivered loud and clear but I suspect to no avail.

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post #101 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
My understanding is that Vizio wants the P in the shootout but VE does not. Various rationales and reasons have been given as to why the Reference (if it appears) is the Vizio that will be featured. And while I'm not willing to explicitly share behind-the-scenes communications, I can tell you that it's not Vizio that's choosing to put the Reference in this shootout and that it's obvious many members of this forum want to see the P series make an appearance. That is definitely a message that's been delivered loud and clear but I suspect to no avail.
Why would vizio want to put a mid-tier P series when there is a better performing tv, the reference series? Makes no sense.
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post #102 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Why would vizio want to put a mid-tier P series when there is a better performing tv, the reference series? Makes no sense.
Price/performance ratio? Performance is not all that different? Availability in multiple sizes? Because the other two LCDs will be in in the 75"-78" range? Because the M-series is the mid-tier line? Just some ideas, I do not know the actual answer.
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post #103 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 03:34 PM
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My understanding is that Vizio wants the P in the shootout but VE does not. I can tell you that it's not Vizio that's choosing to put the Reference in this shootout and that it's obvious many members of this forum want to see the P series make an appearance. That is definitely a message that's been delivered loud and clear but I suspect to no avail.
Mark, tell VE that you are going to hold your breath until they put the P in the test. My kid does this to me and it works!

Seriously every one else I think we need to drop this, as VE is going to do what it wants.
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post #104 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 04:52 PM
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Why would vizio want to put a mid-tier P series when there is a better performing tv, the reference series? Makes no sense.
I am 100% sure VIZIO wants to put their best foot forward. Which should tell you something about the basic premise of your post.
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post #105 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 05:43 PM
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I'm an owner of the 65 P series TV purchased 2 weeks ago. With the improved screen uniformity that the newly manufactured panels are displaying and the recent software update (.14) that improves the fald algorithm, I believe this TV would be a close second to the LG Oled. There haven't been any professional reviews yet with both of these improvements. So one would have to wonder as to why the P series isn't included in this shootout.
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post #106 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I think it would get creamed in this comparison because it would not be compared to similarly priced models and the cop out of "for the money" won't save it since price isn't a factor in the scoring.
Nah, the cop out is the fear the P series would perform nearly as well as the Samsung and Sony entries (again, what reviews there are of the P series suggest this would be the case) and it would be them not wanting price mentioned.
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post #107 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 06:16 PM
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Nah, the cop out is the fear the P series would perform nearly as well as the Samsung and Sony entries (again, what reviews there are of the P series suggest this would be the case) and it would be them not wanting price mentioned.
Hummmm...I think the best the Vizio P could do is a 2 way tie with the Sony. The Vizio P lacks quantum dot and a properly functioning CMS (without artifacts like the Vizio P, Sony lacks advanced CMS too according to HDTVtest), the HDTVtest review has the Sony hitting color targets with a 2 and 20 point grey scale, I don't think the P gets that close, but maybe close enough, I think the P will do well in other areas.

P.S. Without the Vizio this thread would be pretty boring. Without a Vizio (or 2) at the shootout...

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post #108 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Maybe. Tough to tell without an actual contest, though. I suspect there are some areas it will do very well, like controlling blooming and black levels, especially if they took advantage of its DV abilities. But, again, without an actual contest, its really just speculation. I'd also be happy with a "this TV sucks, I don't know why its even here" finding if that's the finding that was warranted, just so we would all know.
This. Without the P, it just looks like VE is afraid of losing sales of much more expensive models.

People just want the truth, not a glorified sales demo.
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post #109 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 07:53 PM
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The vizio P measured in DV mode 98% of DCI/P-3.

That info is from Cnet.

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post #110 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 10:05 PM
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I'm unclear on this: Can I attend the shootout somehow?

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #111 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 10:50 PM
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There is one simple reason I think the Vizio P series should be included instead of the R series.

The R series is a 2015 model.
The P series is a 2016 model.

It's last years model. The first review of a production model was in April 2015.

The shootout should be against the best current models from the manufacturers.
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post #112 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 11:45 PM
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There is one simple reason I think the Vizio P series should be included instead of the R series.

The R series is a 2015 model.
The P series is a 2016 model.

It's last years model. The first review of a production model was in April 2015.

The shootout should be against the best current models from the manufacturers.



The R series tho launched on January 23rd, 2016. That's when the 1st preorders started being full filled

I think the entire vizio stuff is a mess. They still don't have the hdr10 update yet. I hope hdr is a big part of this year's shootout, to which either vizio would fail since uhd BD'S won't have any hdr on those tvs what a bummer.

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post #113 of 942 Old 06-17-2016, 11:55 PM
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I hope hdr is a big part of this year's shootout

Doesn't seem like they are going to choose the winner base on HDR performance.


OP Quote:

They will be calibrated to the BT.709 standard for HD video with BT.1886 gamma. Peak luminance will be set at 35 fL (120 nits).

Will the TVs be calibrated for HDR content? Currently there are many issues to take into consideration when it comes to HDR calibration. First and foremost is the lack of dedicated HDR calibration controls, and any effort to calibrate HDR will result in miscalibrated BT.709. Furthermore, when HDR mode is active the available controls are quite limited. Another issue is that the content itself is being mastered to different peak brightness levels.

How will HDR capability be tested? Peak luminance and black level will be measured as will the color gamut. Various HDR titles will be used for side-by-side comparisons as well as some specialized HDR patterns.

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post #114 of 942 Old 06-18-2016, 07:43 AM
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The Vizio P lacks quantum dot and a properly functioning CMS (without artifacts like the Vizio P, Sony lacks advanced CMS too according to HDTVtest), the HDTVtest review has the Sony hitting color targets with a 2 and 20 point grey scale, I don't think the P gets that close, but maybe close enough, I think the P will do well in other areas.
AFAIK, Sony has never put a CMS in their TVs. However, they generally don't need one. Vizio has one that doesn't work. The S&V review of the 65" Reference pointed out the CMS didn't work, and that the video processing was poor. It failed basic delinterlacing 3:2 film patterns and chroma resolution tests. They didn't show and dE numbers or a CIE chart with saturation sweeps so it's unknown just how bad the color is. The LG OLEDs also have a barely functional CMS, though it's apparently slightly better for 2016 than it was in 2015. Unfortunately, the UHD upscaling in the 2016 models seems have taken a step back from 2015 yielding a soft image and odd artifacts per one of the reviews.

Too bad we can't get Samsung's CMS combined with nnedi3 upscaling (madVR) on a LG OLED panel. Then we'd have something to talk about.
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post #115 of 942 Old 06-18-2016, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Doesn't seem like they are going to choose the winner base on HDR performance.


OP Quote:

They will be calibrated to the BT.709 standard for HD video with BT.1886 gamma. Peak luminance will be set at 35 fL (120 nits).

Will the TVs be calibrated for HDR content? Currently there are many issues to take into consideration when it comes to HDR calibration. First and foremost is the lack of dedicated HDR calibration controls, and any effort to calibrate HDR will result in miscalibrated BT.709. Furthermore, when HDR mode is active the available controls are quite limited. Another issue is that the content itself is being mastered to different peak brightness levels.

How will HDR capability be tested? Peak luminance and black level will be measured as will the color gamut. Various HDR titles will be used for side-by-side comparisons as well as some specialized HDR patterns.
Based on an email exchange I was a part of yesterday, I added this...

"There is a possibility a newly-released HDR workflow from CalMAN will allow for rudimentary grayscale calibration of the HDR modes as well."

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post #116 of 942 Old 06-18-2016, 08:36 AM
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Since most folks, even AVS members I suspect, still watch predominately non UHD content perhaps an upscaling category should be added.

Observations on how well the 2016 OLEDs upscale are all over the map.

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post #117 of 942 Old 06-18-2016, 08:54 AM
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I'm unclear on this: Can I attend the shootout somehow?

''All qualified media, tech influencers and members of the retail community are invited to attend the event by emailing V E'' Try emailing, see what happens
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post #118 of 942 Old 06-18-2016, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm unclear on this: Can I attend the shootout somehow?
"...simply send an e-mail to Robert Zohn, owner of Value Electronics at [email protected]********************* and include your full name. You will be able to pick up your badge at the event by showing a photo ID."
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post #119 of 942 Old 06-18-2016, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
the UHD upscaling in the 2016 models seems have taken a step back from 2015 yielding a soft image and odd artifacts per one of the reviews.
That review is an outlier so far. Seems owners are not discovering the same anomalies, thank goodness.
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post #120 of 942 Old 06-18-2016, 02:49 PM
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That review is an outlier so far. Seems owners are not discovering the same anomalies, thank goodness.
Which raises the question did they flub up the test or are there differences between the European and U.S. models.
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