Value Electronics 2016 TV Shootout Results - Page 15 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #421 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 01:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MrJames View Post
Joel said he would have preferred a replacement unit for the Samsung but there was no time. Robert also mentioned that there was no replacement in inventory if there was time as this was the first KS9800 available.
So, the Samsung was not picked randomly because it was the only one available. I also know that the Reference was not chosen randomly from stock because Vizio ships and installs those to order. So that leaves 2 TVs that were (actually) pulled randomly from what was in stock at Value Electronics... the LG and the Sony.

I wonder if there were any 65" KS9800s in stock when the TVs were chosen. That could have been a viable alternative if there was only one 78" to be had.

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post #422 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 03:46 AM
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Has anyone bought an Oled from Robert along with a calibration?Just wondered how it was dealt with?Does the store run your tv for 100 hours and then calibrate it before sending it to you? I know you need some hours on a set before an accurate calibration can be done.

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post #423 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Perhaps if they had used the new workflow from CalMAN that would have been easy. It strikes me as a significant omission, especially given the situation with the "orange" red color bar (explicitly pointed out during the voting) on the defective/broken Samsung KS9800.
I heard the discussion, and the explanation as to why it wasn't used was very easy. They said the workflow was brand new and they were far from experts in its usage. As a result, the decision was made not to use it in the shootout.

I also doubt the issues with the Samsung had anything to do with its orangey red color bar.
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post #424 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I heard the discussion, and the explanation as to why it wasn't used was very easy. They said the workflow was brand new and they were far from experts in its usage. As a result, the decision was made not to use it in the shootout.

I also doubt the issues with the Samsung had anything to do with its orangey red color bar.
Then perhaps they should have called an expert, someone who does know how to use that workflow. I consider measuring the percentage of DCI/P3 each of these TVs cover to be one of the more vital and informative statistics going forward. Indeed, I eagerly await TVs that blow right past DCI/P3 and aim for full rec.2020.

So far there's no good explanation for the orange-tinted color bars on the KS9800 and no data to offer insight.

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post #425 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 05:30 AM
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So, the Samsung was not picked randomly because it was the only one available. I also know that the Reference was not chosen randomly from stock because Vizio ships and installs those to order. So that leaves 2 TVs that were (actually) pulled randomly from what was in stock at Value Electronics... the LG and the Sony.
Yes, only 2 TVs that were (actually) pulled from stock. Given the contenders and the lack of availability of the Samsung, there was nothing one could do to avoid that. If the Samsung were withheld, some would have wondered why. If there was no Vizio, some would have wondered why. Clearly, no matter what Robert would have done, questions would have arisen. Otherwise known as a 'lose lose'. Every year it's the same thing, it never ends.
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I wonder if there were any 65" KS9800s in stock when the TVs were chosen. That could have been a viable alternative if there was only one 78" to be had.
Why not ask Robert?
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post #426 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 05:38 AM
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Then perhaps they should have called an expert, someone who does know how to use that workflow. I consider measuring the percentage of DCI/P3 each of these TVs cover to be one of the more vital and informative statistics since that's the color space we're gonna be dealing with (most of the time) when watching HDR content.

So far there's no good explanation for the orange-tinted color bars on the KS9800 and no data to offer insight.
Perhaps there was no expert available. Perhaps there was no time. Perhaps they didn't know who the right expert to contact was. Perhaps the off-color of the Samsung is simply the way it is. Is that the last thing you can imagine? The Sharp Elite couldn't reproduce lower luminance cyan properly. That's the way it was. Sometimes the easiest explanation is the correct one.

You know Mark, you can find 100 things wrong with any event like this. Personally I'm happy it's done at all. I'm surprised Robert still does it.

I was actually disappointed in the podcast last night since the only reason I tuned in was to see you and Robert kick your many questions and 'doubts' around. I was surprised and disappointed you weren't there.
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post #427 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Perhaps there was no expert available. Perhaps there was no time. Perhaps they didn't know who the right expert to contact was. Perhaps the off-color of the Samsung is simply the way it is. Is that the last thing you can imagine? The Sharp Elite couldn't reproduce lower luminance cyan properly. That's the way it was. Sometimes the easiest explanation is the correct one.

You know Mark, you can find 100 things wrong with any event like this. Personally I'm happy it's done at all. I'm surprised Robert still does it.

I was actually disappointed in the podcast last night since the only reason I tuned in was to see you and Robert kick your many questions and 'doubts' around. I was surprised and disappointed you weren't there.
Me too.

As for getting answers on the KS9800, I have one on its way and I have the ability to measure DCI/P3 gamut, so I will get a proper answer soon enough. I'm done speculating on that particular topic. Plus, I have access to the G6 and the 940D if I need to go put a meter on either one of those TVs. Alas, I don't know where I could hope to find a Vizio Reference.

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post #428 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Me too.

As for getting answers on the KS9800, I have one on its way and I have the ability to measure DCI/P3 gamut, so I will get a proper answer soon enough. I'm done speculating on that particular topic. Plus, I have access to the G6 and the 940D if I need to go put a meter on either one of those TVs. Alas, I don't know where I could hope to find a Vizio Reference.
ChromaPure 3.x shows percentages of 709, P3, and 2020 every time the gamut is measured.

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post #429 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Me too.

As for getting answers on the KS9800, I have one on its way and I have the ability to measure DCI/P3 gamut, so I will get a proper answer soon enough. I'm done speculating on that particular topic. Plus, I have access to the G6 and the 940D if I need to go put a meter on either one of those TVs. Alas, I don't know where I could hope to find a Vizio Reference.
Who is sending you a KS9800?

Where will you have access to a G6 and 940D?

Will these display be 'pulled from stock' or are they hand-selected pieces from the manufacturer?

Will you have these displays butt up against each other as in a shootout so visual differences can be seen? Otherwise it's very tough to compare from a visual standpoint as our memory for these things is poor.
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Who is sending you a KS9800?

Where will you have access to a G6 and 940D?

Will these display be 'pulled from stock' or are they hand-selected pieces from the manufacturer?

Will you have these displays butt up against each other as in a shootout so visual differences can be seen? Otherwise it's very tough to compare from a visual standpoint as our memory for these things is poor.


I know cnet does this. When David Katz starts doing his reviews he keeps the best tvs (I guess as 1 big collection) and does comparisons as he gets new tvs as he just sets them up side by side. His reviews you would think would start coming out soon.
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post #431 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 07:31 AM
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Yes, CNET does that, but I'm talking about Mark Henninger, not CNET.
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post #432 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I know cnet does this. When David Katz starts doing his reviews he keeps the best tvs (I guess as 1 big collection) and does comparisons as he gets new tvs as he just sets them up side by side. His reviews you would think would start coming out soon.
I visited CNET, Reviewed.com, and Consumer Reports to get an idea how each of those organizations approaches TV reviews. Katzmaier taught me the whole "keep TVs and compare 'em" thing. In contrast, Reviewed.com is promarily all about having a database they can filter and tap into to create comparisons based on measurements. Consumer reports is like a factory, its reviews are based on an assembly line of tests and it alone (among popular review sources) accepts zero ad dollars and buys all its TVs off store shelves.

I'm not a high-volume reviewer, partly because I cover other things beyond TVs (like audio). As much as I like the Katzmaier approach, it gets less and less practical the larger TVs get. Keeping a collection of 55-incher TVs is not so tough, storing a bunch of 75-80-incher units requires two people to move a TV, and a lot more room.

Anyhow, much as I like how Katzmaier does his reviews, my current interest when it comes to the orangish reds seen on the Samsung at the shootout is in measurements, and not so much subjective comparative observation.

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Me too.

As for getting answers on the KS9800, I have one on its way and I have the ability to measure DCI/P3 gamut, so I will get a proper answer soon enough. I'm done speculating on that particular topic. Plus, I have access to the G6 and the 940D if I need to go put a meter on either one of those TVs. Alas, I don't know where I could hope to find a Vizio Reference.
It might not apply here, but when I was researching why Sharp was not bringing MothEye over here I found 2 rumors of problems. The one that made sense was dust build up in the microscope grooves. Sharp even released a special cleaning product for it Japan. Another was difficulty in obtaining a proper calibration using some testing equipment that used reflected light for measurements. Doesn't make much sense because all calibration would be off. This newest version of MothEye, N-Black or Ultra Black as Samsung calls it was supposed to fix those problems.
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It might not apply here, but when I was researching why Sharp was not bringing MothEye over here I found 2 rumors of problems. The one that made sense was dust build up in the microscope grooves. Sharp even released a special cleaning product for it Japan. Another was difficulty in obtaining a proper calibration using some testing equipment that used reflected light for measurements. Doesn't make much sense because all calibration would be off. This newest version of MothEye, N-Black or Ultra Black as Samsung calls it was supposed to fix those problems.
In this case, I've already done due diligence regarding the capability and accuracy of my meters when dealing with Samsung's moth eye screen coating. I don't have measurement issues.
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post #435 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 08:40 AM
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hdtvtest reviewed the european version of the KS9800 a few days ago.
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The only fly in the ointment which prevented the UE65KS9500 from scooping our “Best in Class” award was the presence of pesky posterisation during HDR viewing. As far as smoothness of continuous gradations in Ultra HD Blu-ray movies was concerned, it’s outperformed by other high-end HDR TVs including the LG E6 OLED, Panasonic DX902 and Sony XD94, which is utterly bizarre considering the set’s underlying 10-bit panel. Given Samsung’s impressive track record at responding to constructive feedback, we certainly hope the company can issue a firmware update in the near future to address this issue.
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post #436 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 09:22 AM
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hdtvtest reviewed the european version of the KS9800 a few days ago.

And according to John Archer today, he's been told by Samsung that a firmware update to correct this issue could come at any moment. John is waiting to publish his review per request by Samsung to get the issue fixed 1st.
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post #437 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Then perhaps they should have called an expert, someone who does know how to use that workflow. I consider measuring the percentage of DCI/P3 each of these TVs cover to be one of the more vital and informative statistics. Especially since that's the color space we're gonna be dealing with (most of the time) when watching HDR content.

So far there's no good explanation for the orange-tinted color bars on the KS9800 and no data to offer insight.
Weren't there two such experts there at CE Week? In fact, one will be Scott's guest next week on HTGs.

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post #438 of 491 Old 07-01-2016, 10:31 AM
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Here is a thought. The last two years there was clearly an issue getting sets there in time. Last year the Panny and this year the Sammy and the Vizio. Perhaps the shootout should go back to its roots and decouple from CE Week. That would give Robert the flexibility to reschedule the event if sets can't make a deadline. He has had to do that in the past when the event was at his store. Just a thought.
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post #439 of 491 Old 07-14-2016, 11:30 AM
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Unfortunately in an effort to correctly track PQ (perceptual quantizer) EOTF (electro-optical transfer function) whilst resolving detail up to 4000+ nits, Samsung’s tone-mapping algorithm introduced visible posterisation in what should be smooth gradients (e.g. the skies in The Revenant and The Martian). These banding artefacts could be reduced but not completely eradicated by switching to the [Standard] picture preset or engaging [HDR+ Mode], but once we measured and calibrated these modes to track PQ curve and Rec.2020 colours as close as possible (yes, we leave no stone unturned), the posterization reared its ugly head again. Of course, [HDR+ Mode] involved other compromises too (as we’ll describe in the next section), making it a no go.
No dog in this fight but what I do know from HDR grading PQ is that posterization can also be in the source. I would not just assume that the content was free of this artifact. If so, a 10 bit panel is doing its job reproducing it faithfully. The other panels could be dithering it out.
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post #440 of 491 Old 07-15-2016, 12:20 AM
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Looks like we'll soon have a rematch.
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post #441 of 491 Old 07-15-2016, 03:56 AM
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Did the calibration reports surface from the shootout?

Link if you have one.
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post #442 of 491 Old 07-15-2016, 05:17 PM
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Looks like we'll soon have a rematch.


Lee Niekirk from reviewed.com (who was also a speaker at the shootout), will also be conducting a side by side shootout.


He posted a new article today with his summary of the shootout, and also mentions at the end that he plans to put all the tvs side by side in his own shootout. Not sure if other people will be in attendance or not.



http://televisions.reviewed.com/feat...gap-is-closing
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post #443 of 491 Old 07-17-2016, 08:29 AM
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Of course most videophiles will never watch movies in a bright room. Regardless of how bright a display can get, shadow detail will be destroyed in high ambient lighting. Bright room viewing is casual viewing and thus the ultimate PQ becomes very secondary.

So to me at least, the brightness advantages are somewhat moot. Here's Lee's synopsis:

"Ultimately, the shootout does confirm what we've seen in our own labs and with our own eyes: OLED is still king...but for how long? If you watch movies with the lights off, sure, but the best HDR-equipped LED TVs can continue to stretch their legs and look good in a bright room. LG's G6 may be the brightest OLED TV we've tested yet, but it's still not as bright as the rest of the TVs in this competition, and that's worth considering if you'll put it in a room with a lot of windows."
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There's something really nice about watching a comedy, action movie, or sports on a big bright TV, in a well-lit room on a sunny Sunday afternoon.
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post #445 of 491 Old 07-17-2016, 12:25 PM
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Will be interesting to see how much headroom OLED tech in terms of brightness and move up the bar before ABL kicks in.

Anyone know a full white max reading on a new OLED vs a 940c for example?
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Of course most videophiles will never watch movies in a bright room. Regardless of how bright a display can get, shadow detail will be destroyed in high ambient lighting. Bright room viewing is casual viewing and thus the ultimate PQ becomes very secondary.

So to me at least, the brightness advantages are somewhat moot. Here's Lee's synopsis:

"Ultimately, the shootout does confirm what we've seen in our own labs and with our own eyes: OLED is still king...but for how long? If you watch movies with the lights off, sure, but the best HDR-equipped LED TVs can continue to stretch their legs and look good in a bright room. LG's G6 may be the brightest OLED TV we've tested yet, but it's still not as bright as the rest of the TVs in this competition, and that's worth considering if you'll put it in a room with a lot of windows."
I find Lee's reasoning maddening especially his "but for how long" crack as if getting a television brighter somehow negates/overrides the environment most optimal for viewing.

Out of the blue there seems to be this priority put on not just a bright room but a room made out of glass where you literally need to wear sun glasses in it and that's the environment folks want to watch a high end television? What a bunch of baloney.

If I were to go back a 3 or 4 years and read reviews of LCD televisions you'll come across very little complaints of them not being bright enough for day conditions but now I guess they would be considered deal breakers for not being bright enough to combat daytime viewing. My hats off to the LCD manufacturers for their successful brainwashing. The meaning of HDR has been hijacked to mean very bright room PQ performance.

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post #447 of 491 Old 07-17-2016, 03:14 PM
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Of course the 2016 OLEDs can fulfill any need to watch in a normally bright lit room too. A visit to a torch lit BB shows how well the OLEDs can do in this area. No need for eye-searing brightness IMO.

It's really nice to have a display that can excel at both well-lit room viewing and serious, videophile, dark room viewing.
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post #448 of 491 Old 07-17-2016, 06:33 PM
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To really measure "lit-room" performance you need to look at a room lit by the sun/windows. This is where all displays will have a difficult time without blinds. Just try using your phone/tablet outdoors. Artificial lighting does not compete.
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post #449 of 491 Old 07-17-2016, 06:56 PM
 
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True.

But about this videophile business.

I encourage folks to try an experiment with their videophile friends.

Ask them to honestly tell you how many times they or their family have watched a movie with the lights on or during the day. You'll be surprised to see them admit that it's actually a much higher number than some of us would probably expect. And it almost certainly won't be zero.

Then ask them how often they see any content at all with the lights on or during the day, and you'll likely see that the majority of what they or their family sees (news, kids' shows, movies, games, etc.) is in ambient-bright situations.

Videophiledom (<---I need a term) doesn't break the need for very good daytime viewing.
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post #450 of 491 Old 07-17-2016, 07:16 PM
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