LG OLEDs - how to enhance near black detail - Page 36 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1051 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 06:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shield1280 View Post
It don't look natural with oled light at 50, when watching movies it looks like they have spot lights on them.

Oled light 50 gives more detail with gamma BT1886 that's easy to see.with a lots of lights in the room 50 is just right but with a dim or dark room forget about.
I was referring to Oled Light 50 with bt1886

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post #1052 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by rockycandy View Post
I was referring to Oled Light 50 with bt1886

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post #1053 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rockycandy View Post
We can agree to disagree. I tried DC low with 2.2 and it fried the picture

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DC looks awful no matter what, that's my opinion anyway.

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post #1054 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 10:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shield1280 View Post
DC looks awful no matter what, that's my opinion anyway.
It can have its place in HDR when content looks very crushed

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post #1055 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rockycandy View Post
It can have its place in HDR when content looks very crushed

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Don't like it in HDR either.

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post #1056 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 12:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by shield1280 View Post
Don't like it in HDR either.
On low it is really subtle and only brightens up the crushed areas. It is a compromise between using some degree of DC and losing all details in dark areas

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post #1057 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rockycandy View Post
In low it is really subtle and only brightens up the crushed areas

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I will not have it on
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post #1058 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 02:23 PM
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I keep seeing posts in the 2017 LG OLED thread asking if LG has fixed the near black detail issue. I also saw somewhere that black detail will be improved in the new line.

I'm confused; does this mean that the fixes in this thread don't work? That they only work to a certain extent? Is there still an issue after the suggested adjustments are made according to this thread? How much room is there for improvement in 2017?

I'm eager to buy an OLED since true black and contrast ratio are critical features to me, but a near black detail problem certainly lessens that benefit.
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post #1059 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mttpalmer View Post
I keep seeing posts in the 2017 LG OLED thread asking if LG has fixed the near black detail issue. I also saw somewhere that black detail will be improved in the new line.

I'm confused; does this mean that the fixes in this thread don't work? That they only work to a certain extent? Is there still an issue after the suggested adjustments are made according to this thread? How much room is there for improvement in 2017?

I'm eager to buy an OLED since true black and contrast ratio are critical features to me, but a near black detail problem certainly lessens that benefit.
It could be as simple as finer brightness controls. With all tv's, brightness can be increased or decreased 1 point at a time. That works for most tv's, but for OLED, something much finer is needed. So instead of going from 51 to 52, perhaps they will implement brightness control settings that you can increase or decrease 0.1 click at at time. IOW, 51, 51.1, 51.2, etc. That would give you much finer control and set the correct brightness that will produce better near blacks. That is something that probably could be easily implemented on the 2016 models, but i doubt that will ever occur.
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post #1060 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 05:32 PM
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It doesn't look like there is a way to accurately fix the 2016 near-black tracking because the area with problems is at 3% and lower. Unfortunately, the 20-point calibration controls can only move the 5% point. If you have 5% calibrated correctly, then everything below 3% will be crushed. If you try to adjust to improve < 3%, you will then introduce large errors into the 5% reading. LG needs to add some additional calibration controls below 5% or ship the TVs with better near-black tracking. Maybe some of the other gamma presets (1.9 or 2.2) offer better <3% tracking so you can then focus 20-point calibration on just the 5% and higher region.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Look there: http://chromapure.com/newgear_display3.asp

Correction, I posted wrong data above, here are the corrected:

With Brightness @ 50 and pre-calibrated for 2.4 Gamma @ 5% Gray (2.394 measured gamma), using my Klein K-10A (which can read down to 0.00006 nits), peak output 170.79nit, I got:

0% Black = 0 nits
0.5% Gray = 0 nits
1% Gray = 0 nits
2% Gray = 0.00394 nits (2.667 gamma)
3% Gray = 0.01497 nits (2.713 gamma)
4% Gray = 0.07182 nits (2.437 gamma)
5% Gray = 0.13250 nits (2.394 gamma)
Pretty bad shadow detail crushing under 3%. Proper 2.4 gamma values should have been:

4% = 0.08046 nits
3% = 0.04402 nits
2% = 0.01149 nits
1% = 0.00218 nits

Have you tried playing with some of the other gamma presets to see if they have better <5% tracking? Maybe also the contrast and/or OLED light setting.
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post #1061 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
It doesn't look like there is a way to accurately fix the 2016 near-black tracking because the area with problems is at 3% and lower. Unfortunately, the 20-point calibration controls can only move the 5% point. If you have 5% calibrated correctly, then everything below 3% will be crushed. If you try to adjust to improve < 3%, you will then introduce large errors into the 5% reading. LG needs to add some additional calibration controls below 5% or ship the TVs with better near-black tracking. Maybe some of the other gamma presets (1.9 or 2.2) offer better <3% tracking so you can then focus 20-point calibration on just the 5% and higher region.

Pretty bad shadow detail crushing under 3%. Proper 2.4 gamma values should have been:

4% = 0.08046 nits
3% = 0.04402 nits
2% = 0.01149 nits
1% = 0.00218 nits

Have you tried playing with some of the other gamma presets to see if they have better <5% tracking? Maybe also the contrast and/or OLED light setting.
If you precalibrate the 5% with 2.4 Gamma from each available memories (1.9/2.4/2.4) you will see that 2.4 vs 2.2 are very close.

I don't suggest for any reason the 1.9 setting, it's de-saturating a lot the colors.

2.2 has better balance among the color channels if you are going to do 3D LUT calibration.

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post #1062 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
It doesn't look like there is a way to accurately fix the 2016 near-black tracking because the area with problems is at 3% and lower. Unfortunately, the 20-point calibration controls can only move the 5% point. If you have 5% calibrated correctly, then everything below 3% will be crushed. If you try to adjust to improve < 3%, you will then introduce large errors into the 5% reading. LG needs to add some additional calibration controls below 5% or ship the TVs with better near-black tracking. Maybe some of the other gamma presets (1.9 or 2.2) offer better <3% tracking so you can then focus 20-point calibration on just the 5% and higher region.




Pretty bad shadow detail crushing under 3%. Proper 2.4 gamma values should have been:

4% = 0.08046 nits
3% = 0.04402 nits
2% = 0.01149 nits
1% = 0.00218 nits

Have you tried playing with some of the other gamma presets to see if they have better <5% tracking? Maybe also the contrast and/or OLED light setting.
I have no tools for measuring nits but my eyes tell me that shadow detail in that <3% area is far better under gamma 2.2 than gamma BT.1886 or 2.4 after setting contrast and brightness for each gamma using standard calibration patterns.
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post #1063 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Perhaps I confused fL with cd/m2. If I ever think I have evidence of readings below 0.003 cd/m2, I'll get back to you .


Quote:
Correction, I posted wrong data above, here are the corrected:

With Brightness @ 50 and pre-calibrated for 2.4 Gamma @ 5% Gray (2.394 measured gamma), using my Klein K-10A (which can read down to 0.00006 nits), peak output 170.79nit, I got:

0% Black = 0 nits
0.5% Gray = 0 nits
1% Gray = 0 nits
2% Gray = 0.00394 nits (2.667 gamma)
3% Gray = 0.01497 nits (2.713 gamma)
4% Gray = 0.07182 nits (2.437 gamma)
5% Gray = 0.13250 nits (2.394 gamma)
Thanks. This is consistent with my having raised 5% to about 2x what it should have been based on a 'straight' BT.1886 gamma.

Was your 1% visible to your eyes in a dark room, of was it crushed into black even to dark-adjusted eyeballs?
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post #1064 of 2607 Old 01-05-2017, 06:36 PM
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Without making any 5% adjustments with 1886, and 2.2, I can still easily see the 1% slide in a dark room.
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post #1065 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 02:10 AM
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Same here. 1% slide yes, but flashing bar 18 no way.
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post #1066 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mttpalmer View Post
I keep seeing posts in the 2017 LG OLED thread asking if LG has fixed the near black detail issue. I also saw somewhere that black detail will be improved in the new line.

I'm confused; does this mean that the fixes in this thread don't work? That they only work to a certain extent? Is there still an issue after the suggested adjustments are made according to this thread? How much room is there for improvement in 2017?

I'm eager to buy an OLED since true black and contrast ratio are critical features to me, but a near black detail problem certainly lessens that benefit.
IMO, the fixes help to alleviate the issue to some extent but dont totally fix it if that makes sense. In other words there will always be a slight trade off between pure, inky blacks and shadow detail performance. The settings I posted in this thread work for ME and strike a good balance between the two. Watching familiar content with a good source in a dark room are the best way for me gauge how my settings perform. I don't have cal tools or any discs other than the AVS disc. I used that to set brightness and then did the IRE adjustments from there.

So, I think it s fair to say that there is certainly room for improvement here but it's not a huge problem either. IMO.

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post #1067 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by scociuu View Post
Same here. 1% slide yes, but flashing bar 18 no way.
How are you viewing the slide? If from USB it may be displaying it as full RGB. I would suggest viewing it from your PC with no PC icon selected (Just named HDMI) at 60Hz 4:2:0 8 bit.
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I found quite an interesting greyscale ramp image for testing. When viewed at 4:2:2 yCbCr I found quite a bit of black crush. But viewed at 4:2:0 yCbCr I can just about make out the 1% rectangle in a dark room. I still cannot find a 05.% image though.

http://sunmaiblog.files.wordpress.co...8968055464.jpg
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post #1069 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Emery View Post
I found quite an interesting greyscale ramp image for testing. When viewed at 4:2:2 yCbCr I found quite a bit of black crush. But viewed at 4:2:0 yCbCr I can just about make out the 1% rectangle in a dark room. I still cannot find a 05.% image though.

http://sunmaiblog.files.wordpress.co...8968055464.jpg
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post #1070 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 07:29 AM
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Ted's Disc has the best images including 5%.
I meant 0.5% it was a typo.
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post #1071 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
IMO, the fixes help to alleviate the issue to some extent but dont totally fix it if that makes sense. In other words there will always be a slight trade off between pure, inky blacks and shadow detail performance. The settings I posted in this thread work for ME and strike a good balance between the two. Watching familiar content with a good source in a dark room are the best way for me gauge how my settings perform. I don't have cal tools or any discs other than the AVS disc. I used that to set brightness and then did the IRE adjustments from there.

So, I think it s fair to say that there is certainly room for improvement here but it's not a huge problem either. IMO.
Thanks, RoadLizard! This is really helpful. When you say there will always be a tradeoff b/w pure black and shadow detail, do you mean the 2016 OLEDs or tvs in general? How much room is there for improvement going to the 2017s and Sony OLED?

Off-topic (back off jr moderators): I'm still living with a 2006 Sharp 720p LCD that's going strong, but leaves a lot to be desired with picture quality, off-axis viewing, etc. Literally anything in Walmart would be an improvement, but I want good blacks since most of my viewing is at night in the dark. At the point now where I'm considering buying 2016 soon or wait until fall for a 2017 deal.
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post #1072 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mttpalmer View Post
Thanks, RoadLizard! This is really helpful. When you say there will always be a tradeoff b/w pure black and shadow detail, do you mean the 2016 OLEDs or tvs in general? How much room is there for improvement going to the 2017s and Sony OLED?

Off-topic (back off jr moderators): I'm still living with a 2006 Sharp 720p LCD that's going strong, but leaves a lot to be desired with picture quality, off-axis viewing, etc. Literally anything in Walmart would be an improvement, but I want good blacks since most of my viewing is at night in the dark. At the point now where I'm considering buying 2016 soon or wait until fall for a 2017 deal.
IMO, the 2016 models will always have a trade-off but I dont think its a major issue. Black performance overall on OLEDs is freeging sweet as is. So, for me and many others, what is considered minor detail loss with choice scenes here and there is not a big problem when infinite blacks make the image as a whole look so much better than anything else out there. Its a by-product of perfect blacks. The tweaks DO help and that there is what makes it all good for me, personally.

Every model year there will be improvements so yeah - I bet the 2017 models will improve some of this but its hard to tell how much. Same with the Sony sets that will use LG panels. For the record, I really like my 2016 65" E6 and so do most other owners. I have no remorse or "new model envy" whatsoever.

I think you'll really like an OLED. If your main use case is dark room viewing then thats right in OLEDs wheelhouse!
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post #1073 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 08:05 AM
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I meant 0.5% it was a typo.
Hi, this pattern in included inside the 6-Point Near Black Chapter (0.5-1-2-3-4-5%):



It contains the following patches for verification or measurements:

0% Black (RGB Triplet: 16.16.16)
0.5% Gray (RGB Triplet: 17.17.17)
1% Gray (RGB Triplet: 18.18.18)
2% Gray (RGB Triplet: 20.20.20)
3% Gray (RGB Triplet: 23.23.23)
4% Gray (RGB Triplet: 25.25.25)
5% Gray (RGB Triplet: 27.27.27)

Ted's disk users can use the CalMAN 5 Pre-Calibration Workflow below, which will help to measure and compare various settings of near black performance:



For HCFR users, they use that 6-Point Near Black also.

Before starting the measurements you have to select from HCFR's Preferences -> ''References'' Tab -> ''Color Checker Patterns'' drop down menu list the selection of the measurement run you want to perform.




Select ''CM 6-Point Near Black'' if you want to measure using CalMAN's 6-Point Near Black Chapter.

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post #1074 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 08:47 AM
 
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Tedd,
Have you ever tried to up RGB in HDR picture mode? It seems to slightly raise luminance

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post #1075 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 09:04 AM
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Black Detail Issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mttpalmer View Post
I keep seeing posts in the 2017 LG OLED thread asking if LG has fixed the near black detail issue. I also saw somewhere that black detail will be improved in the new line.

I'm confused; does this mean that the fixes in this thread don't work? That they only work to a certain extent? Is there still an issue after the suggested adjustments are made according to this thread? How much room is there for improvement in 2017?

I'm eager to buy an OLED since true black and contrast ratio are critical features to me, but a near black detail problem certainly lessens that benefit.

I do not understand the "issue". I have found that I can calibrate the set to a near perfect 2.2 or bt.1886. and come out of 0 black to 1% (and upward) perfectly accordingly to gamma spec. If you are experiencing crushed blacks, with a properly calibrated set at bt.1886, then the source is the culprit (mastering, bad print, compression....). A gamma of 2.2 has been the industry mastering standard for many years and most current material will be displayed more accurately at that setting, even though you think it looks washed out. I have had every direct view display technology going back to 2001, lcd ccfl, dlp, lcd led, plasma and now led (have calibrated all of them) and no set has produced better low ire performance than this LG.

Given the vast array of source standards we have, and the extreme contrast (and black level) capability of this set, there is no one setting that will be optimal. Basically, it boils down to, BT.1886 is a newer standard but most material was mastered for 2.2. The BT.1886 gamma curve will most likely crush blacks with the majority of current content, this requires you to raise the black level and/or alter the slope of the gamma curve.

To be clear there is no issue with the black detail performance of this set - it's simply a matter of aligning LG's gamma slope (and black level) to what was used to master the source material. If done properly you will have the most accurate representation of dark detail ever available on a consumer display device.

Now white crush is another issue, thankfully our eye / brain system (and the laws of small numbers) means that we are far less sensitive to those discrepancies...
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post #1076 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockycandy View Post
Tedd,
Have you ever tried to up RGB in HDR picture mode? It seems to slightly raise luminance

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In HDR calibration I used RGB 16-235 2160p24 10bit patterns with pattern generator because the HDR movie playback source that that setup was X-Box One S which is output only RGB 16-235 2160p24 10bit at it's output when it's playback HDR movies.

BTW I used my calibration disk and ColorChecker Classic (+Primary/Secondary Colors) Chapter with DVDO AVLab TPG Color Checker function (where it displays the digital level of the selected pixel on screen) to measure it's pattern output for digital errors when you playback a blu-ray, here are the results:



In 3D LUT Calibration with eeColor I used 1080p24 4:4:4 for patch generation because the customer player was bit-perfect only at that mode, when I analyzed it's output for digital errors.



eeColor 3D LUT Box can provide you amazing final results for SDR for a real reference picture performance since LG's are covering 100% of REC.709 and will provide you same kind of color fidelity the colorist/DOP/director saw during the mastering because they used 3D LUT there also.

For example Dolby Monitor has 2x slots of 65-Point Cube, same cube size like eeColor.

I have used LightSpace Software for 3D LUT correction generation using 21-Point Cube size (9.261 color point measurements) with LG 65E6 and CalMAN at the end only for verification, not because LightSpace don't have verification, but I wanted to crosscheck the final results with other software solution also.

5-Point Saturations:



ColorChecker SG:



BTW I have scalled the Luminance error chart from +-50 default range to +-10, to show how small are the errors and how good job LightSpace is doing using it's Anisometric Patch sequence and Drift Compensation feature enabled.

Anisometric sequences are better suited to displays that have any form of ABL, such as Plasmas and many OLEDs, where Sequential patch ordering can cause display overheating (overheating can actually be an issue on any display that has high peak luminance outputs, as it can cause the display to drift. Anisometric patch sequence is using an algorithm to display the patches with one dark/one bright patch order in simple words.

With Drift Compensation feature enabled and with 50 value, it takes a one White measurement per 50 patches and at the end it's including to the correction 3D LUT any display 'drifting over the time' issues, LG's are not stable displays over the time and this helps a lot to the final 3D LUT generation.

These details are for those who need to get the best possible picture for SDR from these OLEDs
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Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #1077 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 10:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bberns22 View Post
I do not understand the "issue". I have found that I can calibrate the set to a near perfect 2.2 or bt.1886. and come out of 0 black to 1% (and upward) perfectly accordingly to gamma spec. If you are experiencing crushed blacks, with a properly calibrated set at bt.1886, then the source is the culprit (mastering, bad print, compression....). A gamma of 2.2 has been the industry mastering standard for many years and most current material will be displayed more accurately at that setting, even though you think it looks washed out. I have had every direct view display technology going back to 2001, lcd ccfl, dlp, lcd led, plasma and now led (have calibrated all of them) and no set has produced better low ire performance than this LG.

Given the vast array of source standards we have, and the extreme contrast (and black level) capability of this set, there is no one setting that will be optimal. Basically, it boils down to, BT.1886 is a newer standard but most material was mastered for 2.2. The BT.1886 gamma curve will most likely crush blacks with the majority of current content, this requires you to raise the black level and/or alter the slope of the gamma curve.

To be clear there is no issue with the black detail performance of this set - it's simply a matter of aligning LG's gamma slope (and black level) to what was used to master the source material. If done properly you will have the most accurate representation of dark detail ever available on a consumer display device.

Now white crush is another issue, thankfully our eye / brain system (and the laws of small numbers) means that we are far less sensitive to those discrepancies...
I thought gamma 2.4 was the standard used by studios and pro calibrators

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post #1078 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 10:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
In HDR calibration I used RGB 16-235 2160p24 10bit patterns with pattern generator because the HDR movie playback source that that setup was X-Box One S which is output only RGB 16-235 2160p24 10bit at it's output when it's playback HDR movies.

BTW I used my calibration disk and ColorChecker Classic (+Primary/Secondary Colors) Chapter with DVDO AVLab TPG Color Checker function (where it displays the digital level of the selected pixel on screen) to measure it's pattern output for digital errors when you playback a blu-ray, here are the results:



In 3D LUT Calibration with eeColor I used 1080p24 4:4:4 for patch generation because the customer player was bit-perfect only at that mode, when I analyzed it's output for digital errors.



eeColor 3D LUT Box can provide you amazing final results for SDR for a real reference picture performance since LG's are covering 100% of REC.709 and will provide you same kind of color fidelity the colorist/DOP/director saw during the mastering because they used 3D LUT there also.

For example Dolby Monitor has 2x slots of 65-Point Cube, same cube size like eeColor.

I have used LightSpace Software for 3D LUT correction generation using 21-Point Cube size (9.261 color point measurements) with LG 65E6 and CalMAN at the end only for verification, not because LightSpace don't have verification, but I wanted to crosscheck the final results with other software solution also.

5-Point Saturations:



ColorChecker SG:



BTW I have scalled the Luminance error chart from +-50 default range to +-10, to show how small are the errors and how good job LightSpace is doing using it's Anisometric Patch sequence and Drift Compensation feature enabled.

Anisometric sequences are better suited to displays that have any form of ABL, such as Plasmas and many OLEDs, where Sequential patch ordering can cause display overheating (overheating can actually be an issue on any display that has high peak luminance outputs, as it can cause the display to drift. Anisometric patch sequence is using an algorithm to display the patches with one dark/one bright patch order in simple words.

With Drift Compensation feature enabled and with 50 value, it takes a one White measurement per 50 patches and at the end it's including to the correction 3D LUT any display 'drifting over the time' issues, LG's are not stable displays over the time and this helps a lot to the final 3D LUT generation.

These details are for those who need to get the best possible picture for SDR from these OLEDs
So do you bring the IRE luminance adjustments from 5% to 65% to be very useful?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk
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post #1079 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by rockycandy View Post
So do you bring the IRE luminance adjustments from 5% to 65% to be very useful?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk
When you do 3D LUT, you pre-calibrate only 100% White using RGB-High while the same time you set your peak output level via OLED Light slider.

After that you start the measurements and at the end you load the 3D LUT table to eeColor.

The advantage is that you don't use the internal controls of LG which every change you will make it's adding a more-digital look to the picture, they are not working so great like in Samsung's for example.
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Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #1080 of 2607 Old 01-06-2017, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by rockycandy View Post
I thought gamma 2.4 was the standard used by studios and pro calibrators

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk
The standard in the industry for a long time was gamma 2.2.
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