LG OLEDs - how to enhance near black detail - Page 87 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2581 of 2617 Old 07-29-2019, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
Level 18 is the same as a 1% window, and 17 is 0.5%, right?


I've got mine calibrated so I can just barely see a 1% window pattern in a dark room. I've found that trying to get 17 visible, while still keeping near blacks looking respectable, is just not a reality with this TV.
Correct. People seem to forget that with OLED, 0% is true black. 0.5% on OLED is so close to absolute black, that 17 would be extremely hard to see with the human eye, unless in a totally dark after allowing eyes to adjust, and even then it would be extremely faint. The reason why 17 is so easily seen on LCD is because their equivalent 0% looks like flashing bar 19 or 20 on OLED.
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post #2582 of 2617 Old 07-29-2019, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Correct. People seem to forget that with OLED, 0% is true black. 0.5% on OLED is so close to absolute black, that 17 would be extremely hard to see with the human eye, unless in a totally dark after allowing eyes to adjust, and even then it would be extremely faint. The reason why 17 is so easily seen on LCD is because their equivalent 0% looks like flashing bar 19 or 20 on OLED.
^^ This!

I used to stress when looking at Wizziwig's excellent 17-27 torture test grid, that I couldn't see 17. That was before I read that you should only be able to see 17 if it isn't sharing the screen with anything brighter than 17! Ie only a test pattern. In terms of nits, it's ludicrously dark.

So - TL;DR - forget 17, get 18 to be visible and the darkest you can see. Also there are some rather nasty rounding errors when it comes to these percentages - there is maths and then there are "video conventions" whereby some software will round in an odd way (eg with value 22, which is sometimes 2.5, or 2.6, or 2.7!).



EDIT: With Calman's "dark detail" workflow, the darkest patch is measures is 20, which is 1.8182% (which Calman calls "2.0%"). The Calman Data Table shows that the target luminance for this (calculated back from ~120nits peak IIRC), with gamma 2.4, was:

0.0089 nits.

... and that's for value 20. So 19 and 18 will both be even darker!

Forget 17!
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post #2583 of 2617 Old 07-30-2019, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Correct. People seem to forget that with OLED, 0% is true black. 0.5% on OLED is so close to absolute black, that 17 would be extremely hard to see with the human eye, unless in a totally dark after allowing eyes to adjust, and even then it would be extremely faint. The reason why 17 is so easily seen on LCD is because their equivalent 0% looks like flashing bar 19 or 20 on OLED.
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
^^ This!

I used to stress when looking at Wizziwig's excellent 17-27 torture test grid, that I couldn't see 17. That was before I read that you should only be able to see 17 if it isn't sharing the screen with anything brighter than 17! Ie only a test pattern. In terms of nits, it's ludicrously dark.

So - TL;DR - forget 17, get 18 to be visible and the darkest you can see. Also there are some rather nasty rounding errors when it comes to these percentages - there is maths and then there are "video conventions" whereby some software will round in an odd way (eg with value 22, which is sometimes 2.5, or 2.6, or 2.7!).



EDIT: With Calman's "dark detail" workflow, the darkest patch is measures is 20, which is 1.8182% (which Calman calls "2.0%"). The Calman Data Table shows that the target luminance for this (calculated back from ~120nits peak IIRC), with gamma 2.4, was:

0.0089 nits.

... and that's for value 20. So 19 and 18 will both be even darker!

Forget 17!

Thanks, guys. That actually makes a lot of sense. I guess I was just used to calibrating LCDs, where 17 and up should be visible. OLED is a whole new ballgame.
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post #2584 of 2617 Old 07-31-2019, 06:22 PM
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Also, just wondering how visible a 1% window is on your sets? In a dark room, I can just barely see it from my seating position. In some programs, blacks appear slightly crushed, but I think this is about the best I can do.
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post #2585 of 2617 Old 08-01-2019, 01:55 PM
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For me, 1% window (10% size) in a pitch black room is only visible with my nose inches away from the screen.

Forget 17!

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post #2586 of 2617 Old 08-04-2019, 12:16 PM
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On a C9, I tried bumping up the darks only using this thread. It seemed to work for ISF Dark SDR modes, but not for Cinema User HDR or Cinema Dolby Vision picture modes. In the HDR modes, I did not get the menu setting of Adjusting Luminance to appear.

Check out the screen caps attached. First one is SDR mode ISF Dark where I can adjust it. The 2nd one is HDR Cinema User and the third is Cinema Dolby Vision.
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post #2587 of 2617 Old 08-05-2019, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
For me, 1% window (10% size) in a pitch black room is only visible with my nose inches away from the screen.

Forget 17!

Cool, thanks. Things are looking better after dropping back down to 50, and not boosting the 5 IRE luminance. I'm seeing a lot less garbage and artifacts, especially on crappy cable and streaming.
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post #2588 of 2617 Old 09-24-2019, 10:52 AM
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On my C8 65, with brightness set to anything lower than 56, black detail is crushed, and that is with luminance IRE 5 set to 12 and IRE 10 set to 10.

The picture does look a tiny bit washed out, guessing because brightness is too high?


What is the best cause of action here? I thought about raising the IRE luminance levels some more.......is it OK to do that? or will that cause any side-effects?

Thanks!

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post #2589 of 2617 Old 09-24-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jonclarkccnp View Post
On my C8 65, with brightness set to anything lower than 56, black detail is crushed, and that is with luminance IRE 5 set to 12 and IRE 10 set to 10.

The picture does look a tiny bit washed out, guessing because brightness is too high?


What is the best cause of action here? I thought about raising the IRE luminance levels some more.......is it OK to do that? or will that cause any side-effects?

Thanks!
Give this a try. In a totally dark room, at night, open the youtube app and search for 10 hours HD black screen. Play that video. Let your eyes adjust. If the screen glows, your brightness is too high. Lower brightness until the screen is black. Next adjust 5 IRE up until glow returns, and then lower 1 click at a time until it's black. That's about the best you can do.
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post #2590 of 2617 Old 11-13-2019, 02:11 PM
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This is a really interesting thread! I just got a B9 a couple of weeks ago. I have to raise brightness to 55 and IRE 2.5% to +8 in order to see the near blacks properly. That goes for both ISF Bright at 2.2 gamma and ISF Dark at BT.1886.

This does not introduce any glow, as far as I can tell. And my X-rite colorimeter measures 0% grey at Y 0.000. So it's all good then, isn't it? All the people here who are adamant about keeping brightness at 50 are making me question my settings.
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post #2591 of 2617 Old 11-13-2019, 02:48 PM
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I've read through the thread and can make these adjustments. This is only for SD modes , correct? I switched over to a HDR mode and did not see the same settings. Are we able to adjust near black up higher like this for HDR and DV modes?
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post #2592 of 2617 Old 11-13-2019, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fush View Post
This is a really interesting thread! I just got a B9 a couple of weeks ago. I have to raise brightness to 55 and IRE 2.5% to +8 in order to see the near blacks properly. That goes for both ISF Bright at 2.2 gamma and ISF Dark at BT.1886.

This does not introduce any glow, as far as I can tell. And my X-rite colorimeter measures 0% grey at Y 0.000. So it's all good then, isn't it? All the people here who are adamant about keeping brightness at 50 are making me question my settings.
Brightness=50 is required for Calman's 1DLUT to be correct, but you can change it if you're using the default factory 1DLUTs, and many people find they have to to avoid slight black crush. That said, the panel changes a LOT with age as well.

Sounds good but are you chasing two different aims? Do you want accuracy first, or do you just want to "enhance" the near black detail so that it's easier for you to "see"?

In other words, when you boost the level of 2.5% grey using the +8 value in the menus, is that to make it possible or easier for you to "see", or does that bring the Y luminance in line with where it should be using the gamma formula? (Maybe both)
btw I don't know which RGB level that is. if 16=black, then 21=2.2727%, 22=2.7273%, so probably one of those with rounding?

@NismoZ yes this is SDR only, can't be done like this for HDR.

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post #2593 of 2617 Old 11-13-2019, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Brightness=50 is required for Calman's 1DLUT to be correct, but you can change it if you're using the default factory 1DLUTs, and many people find they have to to avoid slight black crush. That said, the panel changes a LOT with age as well.

Sounds good but are you chasing two different aims? Do you want accuracy first, or do you just want to "enhance" the near black detail so that it's easier for you to "see"?

In other words, when you boost the level of 2.5% grey using the +8 value in the menus, is that to make it possible or easier for you to "see", or does that bring the Y luminance in line with where it should be using the gamma formula? (Maybe both)
btw I don't know which RGB level that is. if 16=black, then 21=2.2727%, 22=2.7273%, so probably one of those with rounding?

@NismoZ yes this is SDR only, can't be done like this for HDR.
Thank you. Is there anything that can be done for HDR to raise the bottom end of blacks? I also feel like I am loosing dark color depths as well, like a dark color shirt, etc. Is this just how HDR is supposed to look? Indoor scenes seem the worst. Outdoor in natural light gets better. TV settings are near Rtings, with some slight tweaks for myself and I've tried to get more definition from the darker end stuff, can't seem to get there.
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post #2594 of 2617 Old 11-14-2019, 10:45 AM
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Thank you. Is there anything that can be done for HDR to raise the bottom end of blacks? I also feel like I am loosing dark color depths as well, like a dark color shirt, etc. Is this just how HDR is supposed to look? Indoor scenes seem the worst. Outdoor in natural light gets better. TV settings are near Rtings, with some slight tweaks for myself and I've tried to get more definition from the darker end stuff, can't seem to get there.
You would need a proper calibration to improve HDR.
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post #2595 of 2617 Old 11-14-2019, 01:32 PM
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You would need a proper calibration to improve HDR.
With these OLEDs, has calibration been able to improve near blacks and dark color detail and definition like I talked about? Is it possible for calibrators to actually come see issues like this and for them to be able to say whether they can correct them or not (improving near blacks and dark color details)? Maybe I could take it a different way... If I wanted to take pictures of some scenes and then post them, I could compare those details with other forum users calibrated TVs, and see if mine is that much off. I guess I'd have to do that in the specific C9 owners thread.
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post #2596 of 2617 Old 12-08-2019, 07:08 PM
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I remember the old days when you could adjust brightness and contrast and be done with it.

Nowadays you need a whole studio of equipment and 20 man team to adjust your TV :P
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post #2597 of 2617 Old 12-08-2019, 07:13 PM
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^I couldn't help but chuckle at this🤣🤣🤣
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post #2598 of 2617 Old 12-09-2019, 06:54 AM
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I remember the old days when you could adjust brightness and contrast and be done with it.

Nowadays you need a whole studio of equipment and 20 man team to adjust your TV :P
Ironically TVs are so much more accurate out of the box now yet we have much more control.

Sure calibration will bring you closer to reference, but I am not convinced most people would find the value in a calibration.

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post #2599 of 2617 Old 12-09-2019, 01:10 PM
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Ironically TVs are so much more accurate out of the box now yet we have much more control.

Sure calibration will bring you closer to reference, but I am not convinced most people would find the value in a calibration.

Very true - I found that our 2016 OLEDs if you use Expert ISF Bright/Dark are pretty good right out of the box. Those are what most of my settings are based off of with a few tweaks here and there. I was thinking of having my set professionally calibrated but then decided not to. It looks freeging damned good right where I have it. Just no need to spend the money, IMO.
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post #2600 of 2617 Old 02-02-2020, 03:10 AM
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Hi, great thread! With the tips here I set brightness to 53 and IRE 5 luminance to +7. With the 10 hours black video on youtube and completely dark room its easy to check if blacks float.

Question, should I do the 2-step down for higher IRE, so IRE 5: 7, IRE 10: 5, IRE 15: 3, IRE 20: 1? Or must I only use even numbers like 6, 4, 2? Cause thats what im reading here as others are doing like @wxman .

I have 65B8 with latest fw.
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post #2601 of 2617 Old 02-02-2020, 08:41 AM
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Hi, great thread! With the tips here I set brightness to 53 and IRE 5 luminance to +7. With the 10 hours black video on youtube and completely dark room its easy to check if blacks float.

Question, should I do the 2-step down for higher IRE, so IRE 5: 7, IRE 10: 5, IRE 15: 3, IRE 20: 1? Or must I only use even numbers like 6, 4, 2? Cause thats what im reading here as others are doing like @wxman .

I have 65B8 with latest fw.
Brightness at 53 seems high but if it’s working for you then it is! You are doing it right making sure the room is dark and your eyes are well adapted. I’m using the ramp down system for my set and am happy but if you’re content now then just leave it. Every set will be slightly different.

Have you watched some known content and verified you see improvements? That’s really the best test. Once I made my tweaks I tried out some scenes on Blu-ray Discs and whatever to validate my changes. I did notice slightly improved detail and less crush in scenes that had it before the adjustments so that sealed the deal.

Also, I went into my service menu and set my sub brightness main setting to 127. The default is 128. This allows me to use a brightness value of 52 pretty much across all modes and maintain true black. The 52 value teases out more detail than 51 so that was a good change too.

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post #2602 of 2617 Old 02-02-2020, 08:52 AM
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Brightness at 53 seems high but if it’s working for you then it is! You are doing it right making sure the room is dark and your eyes are well adapted. I’m using the ramp down system for my set and am happy but if you’re content now then just leave it. Every set will be slightly different.

Have you watched some known content and verified you see improvements? That’s really the best test. Once I made my tweaks I tried out some scenes on Blu-ray Discs and whatever to validate my changes. I did notice slightly improved detail and less crush in scenes that had it before the adjustments so that sealed the deal.

Also, I went into my service menu and set my sub brightness main setting to 127. The default is 128. This allows me to use a brightness value of 52 pretty much across all modes and maintain true black. The 52 value teases out more detail than 51 so that was a good change too.
Thanks for the reply. My brightness is 54, so even higher(!), and IRE 5 at Luminance 6, I was mistaken! 54 on my set is still true black. The sub brightness I could also try. I noticed an improvement right away (but maybe only psychological :P)! I now applied the 2-step ramp down for IRE 10 and 15. Tonight I will do the 10 hr YT video and check blacks. Ill then do the sub b aswell :—-).

Still getting an E9 though when prices come down :-o!
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Thanks for the reply. My brightness is 54, so even higher(!), and IRE 5 at Luminance 6, I was mistaken! 54 on my set is still true black. The sub brightness I could also try. I noticed an improvement right away (but maybe only psychological :P)! I now applied the 2-step ramp down for IRE 10 and 15. Tonight I will do the 10 hr YT video and check blacks. Ill then do the sub b aswell :—-).

Still getting an E9 though when prices come down :-o!

Cool! Im am also getting the upgrade itch but I want to go 77" so Ill have to wait a bit longer. The newer sets are better regarding near black so that'll be nice.
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post #2604 of 2617 Old 02-02-2020, 11:08 AM
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Question.

When i set my oled light from 0 (I use 0 for ISF dark room) to 5 the brightness and IRE controls work totally different. At oled light 5 brightness 52 gives floating blacks, only 51 is true black. The 5% IRE doesnt do anything, even at luminance 50. How come?
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post #2605 of 2617 Old 02-04-2020, 10:37 PM
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Been trying to fix the glowing blacks on my C9 in HDR10 mode (Dolby Vision somehow works just fine). When I set brightness at 50 and dynamic tonemapping ON (Technicolor HDR) the blacks glow in a lot of content. I set brightness to 48 and bam it's fine now. But when I check HDR pattern the black bars are crushed up to 96. However I see no difference with tonemapping ON or OFF. Is the feature not working on a calibration screen? The blacks don't look crushed in normal content.
In any case, I don't get why blacks in Dolby Vision never glow but with standard HDR10 it's all over the place. I watch 4K blu-rays so the source should be fine.
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post #2606 of 2617 Old 04-02-2020, 01:06 AM
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I'm hoping that somebody could help me. I have an uncalibrated B8 with the following SDR key settings:

isf Expert
OLED Light 40
Contrast 85
Gamma 2.2
Brightness 54

I used the AVS black clipping test in a pitch black room to adjust the brightness, to see minimal flashing at bar 17. Recently I tried OLED 50 and contrast 90 but it seemed a little bit to bright after using 40 and 85 for almost a year.

Now a few people told me to try gamma 2.4. When using that, I need to adjust the brightness to 59 to see bar 17 flashing again.

I put each 2.2 and 2.4 to isf dark and bright and switched within several movies/scenes. It seems 2.4 gives me a little bit richer colors and dephts, especially noticable in cartoons/animation content, 2.2 looks washed out in comparison but I don't know if that is really the case or just because its a little bit brighter.

What can I improve here? I don't have a feeling anymore what the "right" setting is. And I'm wondering why my brightness setting is so high since most people say to stick around 50.

I never touched the IRE settings. Would be this was wxman said helpful for my me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Give this a try. In a totally dark room, at night, open the youtube app and search for 10 hours HD black screen. Play that video. Let your eyes adjust. If the screen glows, your brightness is too high. Lower brightness until the screen is black. Next adjust 5 IRE up until glow returns, and then lower 1 click at a time until it's black. That's about the best you can do.
What about the other IRE settings? Is adjusting 5 IRE enough?

Thanks in advance.

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Last edited by Franconian; 04-02-2020 at 01:15 AM.
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post #2607 of 2617 Old 04-02-2020, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconian View Post
I'm hoping that somebody could get me. I have an uncalibrated B8 with the following SDR key settings:

isf Expert
OLED Light 40
Contrast 85
Gamma 2.2
Brightness 54

I used the AVS black clipping test in a pitch black room to adjust the brightness, to see minimal flashing at bar 17. Recently I tried OLED 50 and contrast 90 but it seemed a little bit to bright after using 40 and 85 for almost a year.

Now a few people told me to try gamma 2.4. When using that, I need to adjust the brightness to 59 to see bar 17 flashing again.

I put each 2.2 and 2.4 to isf dark and bright and switched within several movies/scenes. It seems 2.4 gives me a little bit richer colors and dephts, especially noticable in cartoons/animation content, 2.2 looks washed out in comparison but I don't know if that is really the case or just because its a little bit brighter.

What can I improve here? I don't have a feeling anymore what the "right" setting is. And I'm wondering why my brightness setting is so high since most people say to stick around 50.

I never touched the IRE settings. Would be this was wxman said helpful for my me?



What about the other IRE settings? Is adjusting 5 IRE enough?

Thanks in advance.
Without calibration equipment, I would not mess with anything above 5 IRE.
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post #2608 of 2617 Old 04-02-2020, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Without calibration equipment, I would not mess with anything above 5 IRE.

Thanks for the fast reply, I'll give it a shot tonight with 5 IRE then. What is your take on the gamma, which one are you using?

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If you want to reduce black crush and enhance shadow detail near black, then use gamma 2.2. It only "appears" washed out when compared to 2.4. Personally, I could never find a "right" setting for me when adjusting IRE 5. All I managed to do was make noise and artifacts near black more visible. I left IRE alone and went with 2.2 gamma. It's not perfect, but good enough without a calibration.
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post #2610 of 2617 Old 04-02-2020, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconian View Post
I used the AVS black clipping test in a pitch black room to adjust the brightness, to see minimal flashing at bar 17. Recently I tried OLED 50 and contrast 90 but it seemed a little bit to bright after using 40 and 85 for almost a year.

Now a few people told me to try gamma 2.4. When using that, I need to adjust the brightness to 59 to see bar 17 flashing again.
Don't forget, you're not supposed to be able to see 17 on that pattern. It's INCREDIBLY dark, and should only be visible if 17 is the only thing in a patch on the screen with black and nothing brighter at all with it.
Otherwise, your iris opens too much when the other brighter patches (such as 19) completely swamp it in brightness, and you adjust the TV by too much to see it making level17 brighter than it should be.
It is normally for you not to be able to see 17. It's better to have black + 19,20 etc "correct" than 17 visible + 19,20 pushed much brighter than they are supposed to be. Sometimes you have to compromise.

This was covered earlier in the thread - try around here but if that's not he place just go a bit further back! HTH
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