2016 LG model OLED motion settings - Page 28 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #811 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post
According to RTings, none of the 2016 models could perform inverse telecine given a progressive signal. Are you thinking this is a new feature in the Korean FW? What's new in the FW that you switched to it?
I don't think it's the FW. I'm thinking that the players are performing inverse telecine better than the tv, thus why it looks better when the player does it, vs when the tv does it.
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post #812 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
I don't think it's the FW. I'm thinking that the players are performing inverse telecine better than the tv, thus why it looks better when the player does it, vs when the tv does it.
@wxman - it's just weird though cuz in the Plasma days I was always told to let the display perform the inverse telecine. Crazy that the players are doing a better job.

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post #813 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Superman23 View Post
@wxman - it's just weird though cuz in the Plasma days I was always told to let the display perform the inverse telecine. Crazy that the players are doing a better job.
Back then it was 1080p being sent to a 1080p tv. Now the tv has to convert everything to 4K. That additional processing may be too much for the tv to handle properly in some cases. For me, I have my UHD players send everything as 4K and 60 hz, 4:2:2 color space, to the tv, thus the tv has to do very little processing. The tv doesn't have to convert to 4K, doesn't have to perform inverse telecine, etc.
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post #814 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Back then it was 1080p being sent to a 1080p tv. Now the tv has to convert everything to 4K. That additional processing may be too much for the tv to handle properly in some cases. For me, I have my UHD players send everything as 4K and 60 hz, 4:2:2 color space, to the tv, thus the tv has to do very little processing. The tv doesn't have to convert to 4K, doesn't have to perform inverse telecine, etc.
Good info! I plan on getting the oppo 203 so I'll try your recommendations when I finally get it.

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post #815 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 12:29 PM
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TM 0, 0 definitely does something. What that is, I don't know, but it definitely isn't the same as TM Off.

I was watching Inferno Monday, and during the credit roll, I switched from TM Off to User DJ 1, DB 0, and the credit roll was slightly smoother than TM Off and just RC. I then slid DJ to 1 with DB 0 and the credit roll got very herky jerky. I turned TM Off and it was much better.

So out of:

RC On, TM Off
TM 0, 0
TM 1, 0

TM 0, 0 was by far the choppiest.

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post #816 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 12:39 PM
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2016 LG model OLED motion settings

Quote:
Originally Posted by urgru View Post
Thanks for retesting! 0/0 fails as expected, but it does sound like it's doing ... something. Happen to have Spears and Munsil disc? Mine's boxed up, but another user reported 0/0 as mostly reversing pulldown on their test video.



Question becomes whether 0/0's attempt to reverse 3:2 is better or worse than leaving the 3:2 in place for pans. If it's artifacting in regular content I'd personally lean towards 3:2 or, for our Apple TV friend, start using the built in apps when possible with RC on, TM off.


Thanks for the shout out. I've been using the Apple TV because a few years ago, when I decided to go all digital for media, Apple was the logical choice for me since I'm heavily invested in the ecosystem. That's where every film I own is currently residing. On top of that, I really like the convenience of having one device as a hub to access whichever steam I'd like - there's no real reason beyond that for third party apps and I'm not opposed to using the built in ones. That being said, I'm really hoping for a proper update to the ATV hardware this summer, to bring it more in line with other devices that offer 4K, HDR, 24p. However, in the meantime, I'd still like to zero in whichever settings will produce the best motion/least interpolation with my current setup.


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post #817 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Superman23 View Post
Good info! I plan on getting the oppo 203 so I'll try your recommendations when I finally get it.

Just to clarify, you don't need an oppo to get your player now to do 3:2 pulldown and experience the same motion he is. You just go to your players setting and disable the 24p playback of bluray discs. When you do this, it applies 3:2 and sends a 60hz signal to the tv. I tried it again last night and works exactly as has been described previously. You'll notice less judder.
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post #818 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
Just to clarify, you don't need an oppo to get your player now to do 3:2 pulldown and experience the same motion he is. You just go to your players setting and disable the 24p playback of bluray discs. When you do this, it applies 3:2 and sends a 60hz signal to the tv. I tried it again last night and works exactly as has been described previously. You'll notice less judder.
Ok cool! Thanks! I plan on the new opp 203 since Dolby Vision is now supported. Been reading other good things about it too.

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post #819 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urgru View Post
Thanks for retesting! 0/0 fails as expected, but it does sound like it's doing ... something. Happen to have Spears and Munsil disc? Mine's boxed up, but another user reported 0/0 as mostly reversing pulldown on their test video.

Question becomes whether 0/0's attempt to reverse 3:2 is better or worse than leaving the 3:2 in place for pans. If it's artifacting in regular content I'd personally lean towards 3:2 or, for our Apple TV friend, start using the built in apps when possible with RC on, TM off.
If you change the DJ from > 0 to DJ 0, DJ remains in effect.
You must set DJ to 0, turn TM Off, then turn TM ON to evaluate DJ at 0.

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post #820 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Superman23 View Post
Ok cool! Thanks! I plan on the new opp 203 since Dolby Vision is now supported. Been reading other good things about it too.
Yes they sure are good players. I am going to try getting used to 3:2 again and see how it goes. Always have to tweak something right?
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post #821 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
Yes they sure are good players. I am going to try getting used to 3:2 again and see how it goes. Always have to tweak something right?
Absolutely! Tweaking is fun for sure!

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post #822 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 02:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
If you change the DJ from > 0 to DJ 0, DJ remains in effect.
You must set DJ to 0, turn TM Off, then turn TM ON to evaluate DJ at 0.

- Rich
Why do you think you need to turn TM Off and go back to evaluate DJ at 0? Spears and Munsil disc wedge test is showing artifacts or not with DJ 1 or 0. I don't even have to exit the menu.
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post #823 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 02:12 PM
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You guys really don't think LG's RC is doing a good job multiplying (24x5 =120) on blu rays? Besides the occasional motion blur, I think it's pretty smooth. So for me, I use my XB1S to play BD/UHD and have 24hz checked. What would be the benefit to unchecking 24hz?
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post #824 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 3DBuff View Post
Why do you think you need to turn TM Off and go back to evaluate DJ at 0? Spears and Munsil disc wedge test is showing artifacts or not with DJ 1 or 0. I don't even have to exit the menu.

I ran the DVE motion tests and DJ > 0 causes obvious artifacts. Change DJ back to zero and the artifacts persist.
Turn TM OFF then ON and the artifacts remain.


This was on my B6 a few firmware revisions past so it may have been fixed.


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post #825 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 02:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I ran the DVE motion tests and DJ > 0 causes obvious artifacts. Change DJ back to zero and the artifacts persist.
Turn TM OFF then ON and the artifacts remain.


This was on my B6 a few firmware revisions past so it may have been fixed.


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It's fixed on E6 original North America .95 firmware.
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post #826 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 02:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Quebecker View Post
http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p

Download the video on that page also.

You need to put your camera with an exposure of 1s.

I tested it on my PC. I manually changed the frame rate to 24hz to test the 24P and I changed it back to 60hz to test the 24p over 60hz.
Thanks for the link and info. I read the article and looked at the setup. It's evaluating brightness from each frame across 1s open shutter. The pass will indicate that each frame had similar time on the screen. I does not evaluate any sequence or frame pulsing if any. All frames are averaged across 1s.

60Hz conversion would be done by computer or player first and then TV. Camera will evaluate average brightness again. This test is less accurate since we have more video processing in place by different devices. As long as average is OK the test will pass. I'm not sure if this proves correct 3:2 pulldown.
If the test fails then we still don't know why. If the image looks better with conversion 24 to 60Hz at the player then this test should pass.

I'll do this test tonight if the time permits.

What we really need is high speed camera at least 120fps or 240 even better to capture the 24 fps OLED screen in various settings to analyze the issues frame by frame.

My old Sony video camera has high speed function build in. It will record about 5 or 10s of video at high speed. The camera is HD 1080i 60fps native. I think it is doing 120fps in high speed.

It would be very interesting to see the panning scene from "Hell or High Water" when played back in slow motion and high frame rate.
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post #827 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike4OLED View Post
You guys really don't think LG's RC is doing a good job multiplying (24x5 =120) on blu rays? Besides the occasional motion blur, I think it's pretty smooth. So for me, I use my XB1S to play BD/UHD and have 24hz checked. What would be the benefit to unchecking 24hz?

True 24p judder is less perceptible if you apply 3:2 and convert it to 60hz. So that's the benefit. As an aside, even if you had Black Frame Insertion (BFI) you would still find this to be true.
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post #828 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 02:57 PM
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My head is spinning, LOL. Do I want the TV to "try" and decode the 24p inside of the 60Hz signal or do I not? Does turning on TM at 0/0 help or hurt? Is the Apple TV doing a poor job of converting 24p to 60Hz? Should I just turn TM off and leave RC set to On? I know motion is subjective, but there has to be something that is closer to "accurate" than not.


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Originally Posted by Mike4OLED View Post
You guys really don't think LG's RC is doing a good job multiplying (24x5 =120) on blu rays? Besides the occasional motion blur, I think it's pretty smooth. So for me, I use my XB1S to play BD/UHD and have 24hz checked. What would be the benefit to unchecking 24hz?
The issue is very choppy frame rate at native 24fps. We don't know why. It looks like there is more to it than just a fast response OLED screen. You have to compare it yourself to something else.

My E6 with Koren firmware starts to look like cinemas and other LED screens with TM on and DJ3, DB10 with 24fps passed directly to the screen. TM off and RC on looks strobbing or even out of sequence frames previous with the next.

I don't complain, I like what I see but with 24fps my DJ is 4 and DB 10.
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post #830 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 03:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 3DBuff View Post
Thanks for the link and info. I read the article and looked at the setup. It's evaluating brightness from each frame across 1s open shutter. The pass will indicate that each frame had similar time on the screen. I does not evaluate any sequence or frame pulsing if any. All frames are averaged across 1s.

60Hz conversion would be done by computer or player first and then TV. Camera will evaluate average brightness again. This test is less accurate since we have more video processing in place by different devices. As long as average is OK the test will pass. I'm not sure if this proves correct 3:2 pulldown.
If the test fails then we still don't know why. If the image looks better with conversion 24 to 60Hz at the player then this test should pass.

I'll do this test tonight if the time permits.

What we really need is high speed camera at least 120fps or 240 even better to capture the 24 fps OLED screen in various settings to analyze the issues frame by frame.

My old Sony video camera has high speed function build in. It will record about 5 or 10s of video at high speed. The camera is HD 1080i 60fps native. I think it is doing 120fps in high speed.

It would be very interesting to see the panning scene from "Hell or High Water" when played back in slow motion and high frame rate.
This is not an average brightness. You can clearly see where the pattern started and for how long.

Your can clearly see when it stayed there for 1 frame, 2 frames or 3 frames. Your can even see if there's frame drop and for how many frame it was dropped.

This test is extremely reliable.
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post #831 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by tylerk86 View Post
My head is spinning, LOL. Do I want the TV to "try" and decode the 24p inside of the 60Hz signal or do I not? Does turning on TM at 0/0 help or hurt? Is the Apple TV doing a poor job of converting 24p to 60Hz? Should I just turn TM off and leave RC set to On? I know motion is subjective, but there has to be something that is closer to "accurate" than not.


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IMO just let the Apple TV convert to 60 and be done. TM should be OFF and RC grayed out.


Technically 24p is the accurate cadence. Converting to 60 is still accurate in the sense that no additional frames are interpolated, but inaccurate in cadence because frames don't all get repeated the same amount of times. However, the argument could be made that sample-and-hold 24p isn't demonstrating the intended motion either, if you need to rationalize it a bit.
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
IMO just let the Apple TV convert to 60 and be done. TM should be OFF and RC grayed out.


Technically 24p is the accurate cadence. Converting to 60 is still accurate in the sense that no additional frames are interpolated, but inaccurate in cadence because frames don't all get repeated the same amount of times. However, the argument could be made that sample-and-hold 24p isn't demonstrating the intended motion either, if you need to rationalize it a bit.


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Originally Posted by Quebecker View Post
This is not an average brightness. You can clearly see where the pattern started and for how long.

Your can clearly see when it stayed there for 1 frame, 2 frames or 3 frames. Your can even see if there's frame drop and for how many frame it was dropped.

This test is extremely reliable.
OK, will do.
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Originally Posted by tylerk86 View Post
My head is spinning, LOL. Do I want the TV to "try" and decode the 24p inside of the 60Hz signal or do I not? Does turning on TM at 0/0 help or hurt? Is the Apple TV doing a poor job of converting 24p to 60Hz? Should I just turn TM off and leave RC set to On? I know motion is subjective, but there has to be something that is closer to "accurate" than not.


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It can't decode it. It's impossible on the B6.

Also DB0DJ0 drop frame and is not reliable for 24P over 60P.

Use TM off for relia 24p over 60hz
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I think we over-killed Apple TV
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post #836 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 3DBuff View Post
OK @mikek . I pulled up the "Hell or High Water" from the NetFlix. I'm on OLED65E6 Korean firmware.
I use build in NetFlix app. I don't see any reason to even try external NetFix players. Build in app has everything I need from raw 24fps to 4K and Dolby Vision HDR.

Here is my observation:
Opening scene like you pointed out is probably extreme test for OLED. A lot of vertical contrasted lines, posts, black windows on white walls. Speed of panning camera is just perfect to amplify the issue on OLED.

1. All off RC and TM - very strong pulsing movement, frames looking like 1/4" apart. A lot stronger then LCD or theatre.

2. RC on and TM off - It actually looks worse in this scene. Frame rate is more synchronized but you almost see through some objects to the previous frame. Walking lady gets hollow between frames.

3. RC greyed out TM ON DJ=2, DB=10 - Frames are not going back and fourth but still strong separation. Can't compare to the theatre but I think at this point is still below.

4. RC greyed out TM ON DJ=3, DB=10 - This looks like good LCD or cinema. Hard to tell. Last time I went to see movie it was shown on DLP projector with similar effect. Blacks were bright grey and screen lacking details. My whole family was disappointed

5. RC greyed out TM ON DJ=4, DB=10 - My standard setting. I think it looks better then cinema at this level. 24fps is still very visible. Elements of the screen like windows and posts don't have this jerky movement but still advance as 24fps.

6. RC greyed out TM ON DJ=10, DB=10 Now this is a real deal, 120fps of joy. Fluid motion, 24fps is completely eliminated. The whole scene is flowing like reflection in slow turning mirror. Probably too much for watching movies. No gross artifacts. You really have to look hard to find something but it's more of shadow under the car slightly distorted rather then splash of white or black. The scene is moving too slow and does not have enough rapidly changing, shaking elements like helicopter blades etc. to produce real issue artifacts a splash of white or black.


Next I loaded Stranger Things Ep. 2. If I got it correctly then the panning scene is at 5:45 after the title. This is much shorter and is has less critical contrasted elements. I was thinking that maybe the trees and pattern of leaves is showing some frame tearing but nothing. I didn't repeat all test but the results were better since the scene had less contrasted vertical elements. Zero artifacts at DJ=4, DB=10 and nothing noticeable at DJ=10, DB=10.

@mikek I think you are wright. There is something weird with OLED and slower frame rates. All OLED demo flicks are perfect smooth slow motion shot at 50 or 60 fps. Amazing colours, infinite contrast and pure gorgeous image specially when viewed in HDR. Now going back to old style 24fps it needs motion fix (frame interpolation) just to get to the point where cinemas were 50 years ago

I don't have issue with this. Current firmware with E6 series can get the job done and go beyond.
If there is something going on with raw 24fps then it would support the theory of some people preferring conversion to 60fps with 3:2 pull down.
Thanks for checking that scene out. It is definitely the scene from hell (pun intended).
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I don't think it's the FW. I'm thinking that the players are performing inverse telecine better than the tv, thus why it looks better when the player does it, vs when the tv does it.
Aren't you outputting 60p, though? In that case your player has to perform telecine (3:2 pulldown) to convert 24p to 60p - which as far as we know - the TV cannot reverse.
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Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post
Aren't you outputting 60p, though? In that case your player has to perform telecine (3:2 pulldown) to convert 24p to 60p - which as far as we know - the TV cannot reverse.
Correct. I'm not trying to reverse it. The player does a better job performing the 3:2 pulldown than the tv does. The player sends 4K60 signal to the tv. RC is greyed out, and I turn TM off. The question is which does the tv do first with a 24p signal. Upscale and then 3:2 pulldown or just the opposite. Same with the player. It's obvious to me that the player does a better job than than the tv when it comes to 3:2.
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post #839 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 05:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Correct. I'm not trying to reverse it. The player does a better job performing the 3:2 pulldown than the tv does. The player sends 4K60 signal to the tv. RC is greyed out, and I turn TM off. The question is which does the tv do first with a 24p signal. Upscale and then 3:2 pulldown or just the opposite. Same with the player. It's obvious to me that the player does a better job than than the tv when it comes to 3:2.
The TV does not do 3:2 pulldown in True cinema with a true 24hz material.

It replicate 5 times the sames frame for a total of 120hz

3:2 pulldown (from the TV) was necessary for TV with 60hz panel.

Last edited by Quebecker; 05-31-2017 at 05:28 PM.
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post #840 of 2218 Old 05-31-2017, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Quebecker View Post
The TV does not do 3:2 pulldown in True cinema with a true 24hz material.

It replicate 5 times the sames frame for a total of 120hz

3:2 pulldown (from the TV) was necessary for TV with 60hz panel.
I understand, but I don't like the judder the tv produces whether 3:2 or 5:5. The player performing 3:2 and sending 4K60 to tv looks better IMO.
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